"winston" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> Hi,
>
> Another question here about oolong teas that I'm hoping someone can
answer:
>
> Is the roasting of oolong related to oxidation level?
>
> For example, especially with China Ti Guan Yin, some packages/vendors note
> "medium roast", "dark roast", etc.
> I was always under the impression that Ti Guan Yin was a lightly oxidized
> oolong. So, I'm wondering where a "dark roast" fits in - is it more
oxidized
> that other Ti Guan Yins?
>
> Thanks for any clarification.
>
> Winston
>
>
Oxidation and roasting are two complitely separate phases of oolong tea
processing. After picking and withering, tea leaves are left to oxidize to
the wanted degree of oxidation and then fixated by a first firing. The
indication on roasting you found are related to the final process which is
done in the rifining of oolong teas in order to add a "roasty" taste and in
some case also to decrease astringency. So oxidation and roasting are
unrelated and you can find teas with combination of different degrees of
these two precesses.
L

Livio is very much right about "oxidation and roasting are unrelated".
I will start from this point-

Oxidation process can also make some Oolong more roast and flowery
fragrant. Oolong tea can undergo 20-60% oxidation. When they pan-fry
some oolong teas- timing can vary. That gives Oolong more roast or
more flowery flavor. Some Oolong teas pan-fried longer then others.
When they talk about "medium or dark roast"- they mean the timing of
pan frying. But again oxidation level has an big impact on Oolong
taste. Darjeeling Oolong, Bai Hao and some other Oolong undergo
through less oxidation. Miang Xiang Oolong undergo through higher
oxidation and also pan fried longer time. So the straight answer of
your question is- yes you Ti Guan Yin can be medium and dark roasted.

Ti Guan Yin can be many types. I have tried more then 15 types. If you
try different kinds of TGY, you will see they can be also marked as-
Ti Guan Yin, Monkey picked Ti Guan Yin, TGY 1st grade, TGY K100,
superior, tei baoota, top confou etc. etc. Ti Guan Yin can have
different taste- some has more roast flavor and aroma, some are more
floral, some can be very aromatic or even can be mild aromatic. All
this happened for the processing- Oxidation or roasting timing.

High grade Oolong processing is still considered as one of the Chinese
tea master's secret. Oolong can be processed in two different ways-
one is the traditional method, another is ancient China method. You
can tell this if you carefully take your infused oolong tea leaves
under magnifying glasses(That's another topic).

Their is no straight forward answer about Oolong processing. Hope I
have answered your question, Thanks.

Ripon
Vienna,VA

"Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
> > Another question here about oolong teas that I'm hoping someone can
> answer:
> >
> > Is the roasting of oolong related to oxidation level?
> >
> > For example, especially with China Ti Guan Yin, some packages/vendors note
> > "medium roast", "dark roast", etc.
> > I was always under the impression that Ti Guan Yin was a lightly oxidized
> > oolong. So, I'm wondering where a "dark roast" fits in - is it more
> oxidized
> > that other Ti Guan Yins?
> >
> > Thanks for any clarification.
> >
> > Winston
> >
> >
> Oxidation and roasting are two complitely separate phases of oolong tea
> processing. After picking and withering, tea leaves are left to oxidize to
> the wanted degree of oxidation and then fixated by a first firing. The
> indication on roasting you found are related to the final process which is
> done in the rifining of oolong teas in order to add a "roasty" taste and in
> some case also to decrease astringency. So oxidation and roasting are
> unrelated and you can find teas with combination of different degrees of
> these two precesses.
> L

Thank you Livio! This really helps me understand why there are so many
tastes for oolong teas. If I understand correctly, then it is possible to
have a light oxidized oolong (i.e 20%) that is a heavy roast?

I am wondering if the oolong processing in Taiwan is similar to China ? In
my experience, the oolongs from Taiwan such as Tung Ting, Bao Zhong, Gao
Shan all have much more flowery notes than some that I've tried from
mainland China. Is this because they are less roasted? I'm making the
assumption (incorrectly perhaps?) that more flowery means less roasting and
vice versa?

Winston

"Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
...
> I would like to add only a few remarks on roasting.
>
> I personally do not know which can be considered the differences between
> traditional and ancient oolong production methods. What I will try to
> describe are the main phases of the process used for yan tea, TGY and
> phoenix mountain dancong teas, which I could see in China. The biggest
> difference is in the rolling process, but other phases are basically the
> same and differ only in their degree and in the way they are performed.
>
> Since my English is terrible and I do not make a consistent use of terms,
I
> want first to fix some concepts on these processes.
>
> I will refer to "pan-roasting" (I used the term "pan-firing") in order to
> translate the Chinese term "chao". I do not like too much the term
"frying"
> since there is no oil used in this process.
>
> With the English term "baking" I will translate the Chinese word "bei" (In
> my previous message I used the term "roasting").
>
> Pan-roasting is a process common to all green and oolong teas. It is so
> called since it was performed in an pan. Many green teas are still roasted
> in wok-like pans today, but most of oolongs are "pan-roasted" in a
rotating
> heated iron barrel.
>
> Pan-roasting process has these main purposes.
> 1) Fixation ("Shaqing", killing the green): stop all enzymatic oxidation
> activities in the tea leaves at the wanted degree (nominally 0% for
greens,
> or 20-60 for oolongs).
> 2) Cook the leaves in order to decrease water content and make them soft
and
> suitable for the subseguent "rolling process".
> After pan-roasting, tea leaves must not be dry, but soft and pliable and
the
> more or less time you roast is adjusted in order to abtain this result.
> Being still rich in water content, in this phase tea leaves change and
> improve their taste and fragrance but get little "roasty" taste.
>
> After rolling (that in the case of TGY can be quite complicate), rolled
(and
> so shaped) tea leaves undergo a first "baking" which has only the purpose
of
> drying complitely them. This process might be performed using some special
> "baking baskets" (beilong) made with a frame of bamboo with a metal net in
> the middle and posed on hot charcoal, or, in a more modern fashoned way,
> with a multi-layers hot air dryer.
>
> All the phases above are usually performed directly by the producers
> (farmer) in they own, or collective, premises. The result (fermented,
rolled
> and dryed leaves) is called "mao cha", semi-processed tea. Tasting this
tea
> you can apreciate very well the quality of the plants and the way all the
> above processes have been carried out, but tea leaves have no "baky" or
> "roasty" taste.
>
> Mao cha is not intended for direct consumption and needs a finishing
> process. This might be performed by the producer (in the case of middle or
> big scale producers) or more often by a whole-sale dealer who collect
> mao-cha from many different small producers (a widespread practise in Anxi
> area).
>
> Finishng process includes the phases of removal of stems, sieving, final
> baking.
>
> Final baking is tipically performed in baking-baskets. It is a very
delicate
> and important phase, the one that brings tea leaves to the wanted final
> "roast degree". As Ripon has already explained, this degree which might
vary
> a lot, but it is with the final baking that, varying the process timing,
an
> oolong tea can become a light, medium or heavy roasted one, and not during
> the pan-roasting process.
>
> Sorry for being so verbose.
> Livio
>
>
*snip*

Thanks, Ripon. Could you tell us more about the difference between
traditional method and ancient China method? Sounds intriguing. Also, what
are the names of the teas using the ancient China method and are they
available for mere mortals to buy?

Winston
"Ripon" > wrote in message
om...
> Livio is very much right about "oxidation and roasting are unrelated".
> I will start from this point-
>
> Oxidation process can also make some Oolong more roast and flowery
> fragrant. Oolong tea can undergo 20-60% oxidation. When they pan-fry
> some oolong teas- timing can vary. That gives Oolong more roast or
> more flowery flavor. Some Oolong teas pan-fried longer then others.
> When they talk about "medium or dark roast"- they mean the timing of
> pan frying. But again oxidation level has an big impact on Oolong
> taste. Darjeeling Oolong, Bai Hao and some other Oolong undergo
> through less oxidation. Miang Xiang Oolong undergo through higher
> oxidation and also pan fried longer time. So the straight answer of
> your question is- yes you Ti Guan Yin can be medium and dark roasted.
>
> Ti Guan Yin can be many types. I have tried more then 15 types. If you
> try different kinds of TGY, you will see they can be also marked as-
> Ti Guan Yin, Monkey picked Ti Guan Yin, TGY 1st grade, TGY K100,
> superior, tei baoota, top confou etc. etc. Ti Guan Yin can have
> different taste- some has more roast flavor and aroma, some are more
> floral, some can be very aromatic or even can be mild aromatic. All
> this happened for the processing- Oxidation or roasting timing.
>
> High grade Oolong processing is still considered as one of the Chinese
> tea master's secret. Oolong can be processed in two different ways-
> one is the traditional method, another is ancient China method. You
> can tell this if you carefully take your infused oolong tea leaves
> under magnifying glasses(That's another topic).
>
> Their is no straight forward answer about Oolong processing. Hope I
> have answered your question, Thanks.
>
> Ripon
> Vienna,VA
>
> "Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
> > > Another question here about oolong teas that I'm hoping someone can
> > answer:
> > >
> > > Is the roasting of oolong related to oxidation level?
> > >
> > > For example, especially with China Ti Guan Yin, some packages/vendors
note
> > > "medium roast", "dark roast", etc.
> > > I was always under the impression that Ti Guan Yin was a lightly
oxidized
> > > oolong. So, I'm wondering where a "dark roast" fits in - is it more
> > oxidized
> > > that other Ti Guan Yins?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any clarification.
> > >
> > > Winston
> > >
> > >
> > Oxidation and roasting are two complitely separate phases of oolong tea
> > processing. After picking and withering, tea leaves are left to oxidize
to
> > the wanted degree of oxidation and then fixated by a first firing. The
> > indication on roasting you found are related to the final process which
is
> > done in the rifining of oolong teas in order to add a "roasty" taste and
in
> > some case also to decrease astringency. So oxidation and roasting are
> > unrelated and you can find teas with combination of different degrees of
> > these two precesses.
> > L

/11/04


> Hi,
>
> Another question here about oolong teas that I'm hoping someone can answer:
>
> Is the roasting of oolong related to oxidation level?
>
> For example, especially with China Ti Guan Yin, some packages/vendors note
> "medium roast", "dark roast", etc.
> I was always under the impression that Ti Guan Yin was a lightly oxidized
> oolong. So, I'm wondering where a "dark roast" fits in - is it more oxidized
> that other Ti Guan Yins?
>
> Thanks for any clarification.
>
> Winston

Winston, you and I both could use some more clarification here. It appears
to me that if a tea is more heavily roasted, but not very highly oxidized,
it will appear quite dark as dry leaf, but become much greener in the water.
The taste will also be different. Oxidation and roasting are totally
different processes, in some sense diametrically opposed, I think, since
roasting should stop oxidation, and lead to taste differences. *Exactly*
what they are eludes me sometimes. That's why I too need a bit of
clarification.

Michael
>
>

Hi Michael,

> roasting should stop oxidation, and lead to taste differences. *Exactly*
> what they are eludes me sometimes. That's why I too need a bit of
> clarification.

Me too. I have problems with English.
So far, I thought the term "roast" for tea was reserved to the roasting done
to certain teas (mostly green or oolong) after the whole first process is
done, after they are completely oxided/stopped/dried/fermented. The
operation to stop the oxidation is called anything but roasting (pan-firing,
steaming, heating, cooking....).
My understanding is the packages allude to that second-process roasting.

Not all oolongs are roasted. You can roast your tea yourself at home (it's a
good way to recycle greens that are getting a bit old) to see the effect.

>It appears
> to me that if a tea is more heavily roasted, but not very highly oxidized,
> it will appear quite dark as dry leaf, but become much greener in the
water.

No, in my experience, they appear very dark brown/orange in the water, they
get closer to coffee. In taste too.

About the health point of view. I don't have the reference here, but
roasting tea make it lose some exciting substances like cafeine/theine, so
roasted teas can be better for children or to drink in the evening if you
fear to have problems to sleep. They also have properties for Chinese
medicine, and are given to people that are sick and recovering. But they
lose vitamins or I don't remember what.

Kuri

Kuri,

Problems with English put us all on an equal footing. Many words are used
in a very sloppy way. Two of my favorites among these words are
"fermentation" and "roasting." We use the word fermentation when it would be
more accurate to say "oxidation." We use the words "roast," "fire," and
"fry" to mean the same thing. These are undoubtedly translations from a
single Chinese word. I've heard the words "uncooked," "raw," "green," and
"unoxidized" to refer to one type of Pu-erh, each word meaning the same. So,
the question of language is a problem for us all.

Recently I bought a hand held, hemispheric, handled, unglazed ceramic
"roaster" which I use to roast a half ounce of tea at a time by holding the
roaster over a flame and turning constantly. I've been enjoying this since
there are indeed changes that occur with my additional roast.

More interspersed comments and questions below

/13/04

> Hi Michael,
>
>> roasting should stop oxidation, and lead to taste differences. *Exactly*
>> what they are eludes me sometimes. That's why I too need a bit of
>> clarification.
>
> Me too. I have problems with English.
> So far, I thought the term "roast" for tea was reserved to the roasting done
> to certain teas (mostly green or oolong) after the whole first process is
> done, after they are completely oxided/stopped/dried/fermented. The
> operation to stop the oxidation is called anything but roasting (pan-firing,
> steaming, heating, cooking....).
> My understanding is the packages allude to that second-process roasting.
>
> Not all oolongs are roasted. You can roast your tea yourself at home (it's a
> good way to recycle greens that are getting a bit old) to see the effect.

Wouldn't nearly all Oolongs be at least a bit roasted as part of the complex
Oolong production process? Unless "roasting" refers to that final roast.
>
>> It appears
>> to me that if a tea is more heavily roasted, but not very highly oxidized,
>> it will appear quite dark as dry leaf, but become much greener in the
> water.
>
> No, in my experience, they appear very dark brown/orange in the water, they
> get closer to coffee. In taste too.

I've noticed that in TGY's; however, what about Dan Congs from Phoenix
Mountain and Yan teas from Wuyi Mountain? These appear quite dark in the
leaf, but turn greener in the water to varying degrees. I was thinking of
these two when I made my statement.
>
> About the health point of view. I don't have the reference here, but
> roasting tea make it lose some exciting substances like cafeine/theine, so
> roasted teas can be better for children or to drink in the evening if you
> fear to have problems to sleep. They also have properties for Chinese
> medicine, and are given to people that are sick and recovering. But they
> lose vitamins or I don't remember what.
>

Are you quite sure the roast lowers the caffeine (teine) level? That would
be good news for people, like me, who are supposed to cut down.

Thanks, Kuri.

Michael

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message

> Problems with English put us all on an equal footing. Many words are used
> in a very sloppy way. Two of my favorites among these words are
> "fermentation" and "roasting." We use the word fermentation when it would
be
> more accurate to say "oxidation."

For fermentation the mistake comes from a former misundertsanding of the
phenomemon.


> Recently I bought a hand held, hemispheric, handled, unglazed ceramic
> "roaster" which I use to roast a half ounce of tea at a time by holding
the
> roaster over a flame and turning constantly. I've been enjoying this since
> there are indeed changes that occur with my additional roast.

I have one too, and I'm looking for a second one (the handle is too short, I
need to wear gloves
to use it and well it's unpleasant in this season).

> Wouldn't nearly all Oolongs be at least a bit roasted as part of the
complex
> Oolong production process? Unless "roasting" refers to that final roast.

I mean the final one. Let's say post-roast.

> > No, in my experience, they appear very dark brown/orange in the water,
they
> > get closer to coffee. In taste too.
>
> I've noticed that in TGY's; however, what about Dan Congs from Phoenix
> Mountain and Yan teas from Wuyi Mountain? These appear quite dark in the
> leaf, but turn greener in the water to varying degrees. I was thinking of
> these two when I made my statement.

Well, certainly the way to "heat" them during the process causes that effect
(the length of heating also produces different color effects in Japanese
senchas).

> Are you quite sure the roast lowers the caffeine (teine) level? That
would
> be good news for people, like me, who are supposed to cut down.

Yes, for the Japanese roasted or post-roasted Bancha (older leaves picked
later) and post-roasted Sencha. Less cafeine and less tanin. They are
considered OK for children.
They are darked roasted. I've drunk them in the evening for years. Maybe
it's psychological but they don't prevent me from sleeping.

No about post-roasted oolongs and other teas, no information. But why
wouldn't that not produce the same effect ?


Kuri