I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

Thanks for any answers,
Gyorgy

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
> red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
> why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
> special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
> the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
> Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?
>
> Thanks for any answers,
> Gyorgy

My understanding of red tea was that it was created in Africa, I think
southern Africa, and it was called Rooibos meaning red bush. But I
could be wrong. Maybe that's why they don't drink red tea. Plus it's
not really a tea since it doesnt come from the tea plant.

(Mike Thadman) wrote in message . com>...
> (Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> > I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
> > red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
> > why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
> > special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
> > the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
> > Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?
> >
> > Thanks for any answers,
> > Gyorgy
>
> My understanding of red tea was that it was created in Africa, I think
> southern Africa, and it was called Rooibos meaning red bush. But I
> could be wrong. Maybe that's why they don't drink red tea. Plus it's
> not really a tea since it doesnt come from the tea plant.

I was actually talking about the tea which the Chinese call red tea,
and which is called black tea in the West.

> > > I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
> > > red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
> > > why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
> > > special invention for or by the Europeans?

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!

Was it red tea at all that
> > > the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
> > > Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
>
> Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
> accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
> modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
> green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
> Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
> The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
> and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!
>
>
> I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
> choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
> have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
> century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
> Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
> processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
> black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
>
> Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
> accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
> modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
> green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
> Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
> The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
> and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!
>
>
> I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
> choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
> have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
> century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
> Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
> processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
> black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> (bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> >
> > Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
> > accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
> > modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
> > green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
> > Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
> > The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
> > and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!
> >
> >
> > I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
> > choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
> > have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
> > century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
> > Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
> > processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
> > black tea was their main choice.
>
> Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
> Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
> Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
> the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
> developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
> export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
> replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
> tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
> process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
> rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
> exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
> themself disdained black tea.
>
> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>
> Gyorgy

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

--
Derek

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

--
Derek

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

> > Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
> > accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
> > modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
> > green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
> > Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
> > The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
> > and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!
> >
> >
> > I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
> > choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
> > have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
> > century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
> > Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
> > processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
> > black tea was their main choice.
>
> Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
> Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
> Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
> the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
> developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
> export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
> replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
> tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
> process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
> rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
> exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
> themself disdained black tea.
>
> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>
> Gyorgy

Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
styles of tea?

> > Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
> > accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
> > modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
> > green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
> > Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
> > The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
> > and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!
> >
> >
> > I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
> > choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
> > have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
> > century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
> > Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
> > processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
> > black tea was their main choice.
>
> Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
> Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
> Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
> the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
> developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
> export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
> replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
> tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
> process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
> rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
> exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
> themself disdained black tea.
>
> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>
> Gyorgy

Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
styles of tea?

Derek > wrote in message >...
> Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:
>
> > In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> > black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> > with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> > Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>
> Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.
>
> It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
> importing the beverage around 1650.

You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
(Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
it to Europe:

"Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
gained the rest of Europe."

Derek > wrote in message >...
> Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:
>
> > In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
> > black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
> > with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
> > Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>
> Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.
>
> It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
> importing the beverage around 1650.

You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
(Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
it to Europe:

"Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
gained the rest of Europe."

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
> Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
> Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
> ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
> survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
> it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
> iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
> meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
> popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
> Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.
>
> Jim
>

Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
1610 and in the following two centuries.

> Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.

Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.

BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.

Thank you,
Gyorgy

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
> Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
> Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
> ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
> survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
> it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
> iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
> meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
> popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
> Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.
>
> Jim
>

Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
1610 and in the following two centuries.

> Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.

Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.

BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.

Thank you,
Gyorgy

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...

> When black tea drinking became
> popular in Europe it became popular in China.

Have drinking of black tea ever been popular in China?? My sources say
just the opposite. (Save the drinking habit of the Manchu ruling
class, who was not Han Chinese, but of Mongolian origin.)

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...

> When black tea drinking became
> popular in Europe it became popular in China.

Have drinking of black tea ever been popular in China?? My sources say
just the opposite. (Save the drinking habit of the Manchu ruling
class, who was not Han Chinese, but of Mongolian origin.)

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
>
> Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> styles of tea?

There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
puerh. Very puzzling.

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
>
> Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> styles of tea?

There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
puerh. Very puzzling.

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

> Derek > wrote in message >...
>> Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:
>>
>>> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
>>> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
>>> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
>>> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>>
>> Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.
>>
>> It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
>> importing the beverage around 1650.
>
> You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
> and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
> habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
> (Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
> it to Europe:
>
> "Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
> became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
> publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
> Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
> 1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
> milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
> gained the rest of Europe."

Works for me.

--
Derek

Mediocrity takes a lot less time and most people won't notice the
difference until it's too late.

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

> Derek > wrote in message >...
>> Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:
>>
>>> In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
>>> black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
>>> with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
>>> Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.
>>
>> Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.
>>
>> It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
>> importing the beverage around 1650.
>
> You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
> and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
> habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
> (Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
> it to Europe:
>
> "Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
> became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
> publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
> Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
> 1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
> milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
> gained the rest of Europe."

Works for me.

--
Derek

Mediocrity takes a lot less time and most people won't notice the
difference until it's too late.

(Gyorgy Sajo) writes:

> (bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> >
> > Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> > was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> > for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> > styles of tea?
>
> There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
> researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
> green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
> and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
> not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
> the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
> time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
> book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
> puerh. Very puzzling.

I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
non-red was outside his experience.

Also (I could be wrong here, for I don't have the book handy - it's
lent to a friend) I suspect he doesn't speak or read Chinese, and I
don't remember reading anything in the book indicating he'd actually
*been* to China.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

(Gyorgy Sajo) writes:

> (bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> >
> > Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> > was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> > for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> > styles of tea?
>
> There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
> researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
> green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
> and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
> not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
> the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
> time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
> book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
> puerh. Very puzzling.

I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
non-red was outside his experience.

Also (I could be wrong here, for I don't have the book handy - it's
lent to a friend) I suspect he doesn't speak or read Chinese, and I
don't remember reading anything in the book indicating he'd actually
*been* to China.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Here is an ebook that is usefull "Tea Leaves" Leggett, 1900

http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclec...chapter-i.html

Jim

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> styles of tea?

Here is an ebook that is usefull "Tea Leaves" Leggett, 1900

http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclec...chapter-i.html

Jim

(bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> styles of tea?

What made black tea popular in China was the European addition of a
handle to the teapot. Initially the Chinese imported the adaptation
then copied and exported. Essentially the Chinese realized if black
tea was good enough for the Europeans it was good for them. I don't
know of any breakdown statistics for current green-oolong-black
consumption in China. I'd say the Chinese supermarket brand selection
is less for oolong than green-black. Brand name oolong for the
English markets has essentially dried up. Even when it was available
it was more expensive than the other two. The Chinese oolongs are
cheaper than the Taiwan oolongs at my local tea shoppe. It could be
the relatively high European price is due to domestic consumption
which is certainly true for Taiwan. I've been drinking a wonderful
Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> (Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
>
> > When black tea drinking became
> > popular in Europe it became popular in China.
>
> Have drinking of black tea ever been popular in China?? My sources say
> just the opposite. (Save the drinking habit of the Manchu ruling
> class, who was not Han Chinese, but of Mongolian origin.)

What made black tea popular in China was the European addition of a
handle to the teapot. Initially the Chinese imported the adaptation
then copied and exported. Essentially the Chinese realized if black
tea was good enough for the Europeans it was good for them. I don't
know of any breakdown statistics for current green-oolong-black
consumption in China. I'd say the Chinese supermarket brand selection
is less for oolong than green-black. Brand name oolong for the
English markets has essentially dried up. Even when it was available
it was more expensive than the other two. The Chinese oolongs are
cheaper than the Taiwan oolongs at my local tea shoppe. It could be
the relatively high European price is due to domestic consumption
which is certainly true for Taiwan. I've been drinking a wonderful
Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> (Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
>
> > When black tea drinking became
> > popular in Europe it became popular in China.
>
> Have drinking of black tea ever been popular in China?? My sources say
> just the opposite. (Save the drinking habit of the Manchu ruling
> class, who was not Han Chinese, but of Mongolian origin.)

Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:

> I've been drinking a wonderful
> Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.

Now that sounds absolutely tasty.

--
Derek

A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of
destruction.

Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:

> I've been drinking a wonderful
> Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.

Now that sounds absolutely tasty.

--
Derek

A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of
destruction.

Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> (Gyorgy Sajo) writes:
>
> > (bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> > >
> > > Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> > > was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> > > for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> > > styles of tea?
> >
> > There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
> > researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
> > green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
> > and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
> > not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
> > the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
> > time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
> > book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
> > puerh. Very puzzling.
>
> I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
> obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
> done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
> his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
> suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
> non-red was outside his experience.

I agree. After reading the book, I have got an impression af a smart
all-round guy, who can write about just anything under the sun,
provided that he is allowed to do a substantial research on the topic.
The book mentions that he has also written on ancient and medieval
European topics, which are quite far off from the history of tea in
China. On the other hand I do not think that he is a tea aficionado,
maybe not even a tea drinker, which could explain his ignorance or
ignoring of discussing topics, that are very essential parts of the
tea drinking tradition in China, and which are also well-known facts
to many Western tea aficionados.

> Also (I could be wrong here, for I don't have the book handy - it's
> lent to a friend) I suspect he doesn't speak or read Chinese, and I
> don't remember reading anything in the book indicating he'd actually
> *been* to China.
>

True for both. However, he admittedly used a number of Chinese
sources, as in the Acknowledgments he thanks his Chinese "principal
translator", who has "spent hours pouring over Chinese texts", and
"used an extensive invisible network of family ties and relations to
procure texts he thougth would interest" him.

Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> (Gyorgy Sajo) writes:
>
> > (bruce) wrote in message . com>...
> > >
> > > Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
> > > was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
> > > for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
> > > styles of tea?
> >
> > There are no other dates. Curiously, despite of a very thorougly
> > researched book, with a welth of information about the history of
> > green tea, a deep knowledge of Chinese history and society, tea trade
> > and cultivation from the earliest days until today, the author does
> > not seem to have any knowledge of other teas than black and green! In
> > the chapter where he discusses the processing of tea in more recent
> > time, he mentions only black and green tea manufacture. In the whole
> > book there is virtually no mention of oolong, white, yellow teas or
> > puerh. Very puzzling.
>
> I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
> obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
> done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
> his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
> suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
> non-red was outside his experience.

I agree. After reading the book, I have got an impression af a smart
all-round guy, who can write about just anything under the sun,
provided that he is allowed to do a substantial research on the topic.
The book mentions that he has also written on ancient and medieval
European topics, which are quite far off from the history of tea in
China. On the other hand I do not think that he is a tea aficionado,
maybe not even a tea drinker, which could explain his ignorance or
ignoring of discussing topics, that are very essential parts of the
tea drinking tradition in China, and which are also well-known facts
to many Western tea aficionados.

> Also (I could be wrong here, for I don't have the book handy - it's
> lent to a friend) I suspect he doesn't speak or read Chinese, and I
> don't remember reading anything in the book indicating he'd actually
> *been* to China.
>

True for both. However, he admittedly used a number of Chinese
sources, as in the Acknowledgments he thanks his Chinese "principal
translator", who has "spent hours pouring over Chinese texts", and
"used an extensive invisible network of family ties and relations to
procure texts he thougth would interest" him.

If you've got an extra $700 buy The Tea Industry by Nick Hall
http://www.woodhead-publishing.com/f...ricul/tea.html

It's in our metro library system as a reference but across town but
one of these days .... If you want to write a book use Lexus\Nexus
and conduct a few phone interviews.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> > Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...

> > I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
> > obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
> > done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
> > his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
> > suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
> > non-red was outside his experience.
>
> I agree. After reading the book, I have got an impression af a smart
> all-round guy, who can write about just anything under the sun,
> provided that he is allowed to do a substantial research on the topic.

If you've got an extra $700 buy The Tea Industry by Nick Hall
http://www.woodhead-publishing.com/f...ricul/tea.html

It's in our metro library system as a reference but across town but
one of these days .... If you want to write a book use Lexus\Nexus
and conduct a few phone interviews.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> > Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...

> > I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
> > obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
> > done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
> > his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
> > suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
> > non-red was outside his experience.
>
> I agree. After reading the book, I have got an impression af a smart
> all-round guy, who can write about just anything under the sun,
> provided that he is allowed to do a substantial research on the topic.

Just some Google factoids. I did verify the etymology of British tea
terms once. The history of tea in Europe is nothing more than the
history to the Dutch and British East Indies trading companies.
Shipping records are still available from the first voyages in the
17th century and insurance records from Lloyds of London in 18th
century. Early imports of mainland oolongs in 1860's were replaced by
Formosa oolong by end of the century.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> (Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
> > Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
> > Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
> > ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
> > survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
> > it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
> > iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
> > meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
> > popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
> > Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
> am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
> about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
> information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
> 1610 and in the following two centuries.
>
> > Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.
>
> Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
> know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.
>
> BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
> of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
> the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.
>
> Thank you,
> Gyorgy

Just some Google factoids. I did verify the etymology of British tea
terms once. The history of tea in Europe is nothing more than the
history to the Dutch and British East Indies trading companies.
Shipping records are still available from the first voyages in the
17th century and insurance records from Lloyds of London in 18th
century. Early imports of mainland oolongs in 1860's were replaced by
Formosa oolong by end of the century.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> (Space Cowboy) wrote in message m>...
> > Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
> > Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
> > ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
> > survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
> > it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
> > iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
> > meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
> > popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
> > Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
> am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
> about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
> information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
> 1610 and in the following two centuries.
>
> > Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.
>
> Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
> know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.
>
> BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
> of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
> the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.
>
> Thank you,
> Gyorgy

I looked all over the Internet and can't find Orange Blossom tisane
for sale from anybody. I know it becomes an orange but you'd think
the Florida farmers would harvest before hard freezes. I'll check a
couple of herbal stores locally. My local tea shoppe sells all tea
infusions for the same price. Knowing this I usually walk out with a
cup of the more expensive stuff like silver needles or kokeicha.
Recently he's been selling a genmaicha with matcha making a
psychedelic green concoction. Oh yes he now sells bubble tea. I
don't know what I hate the most tapioca or bergamot.

Jim

Derek > wrote in message >...
> Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:
>
> > I've been drinking a wonderful
> > Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.
>
> Now that sounds absolutely tasty.

I looked all over the Internet and can't find Orange Blossom tisane
for sale from anybody. I know it becomes an orange but you'd think
the Florida farmers would harvest before hard freezes. I'll check a
couple of herbal stores locally. My local tea shoppe sells all tea
infusions for the same price. Knowing this I usually walk out with a
cup of the more expensive stuff like silver needles or kokeicha.
Recently he's been selling a genmaicha with matcha making a
psychedelic green concoction. Oh yes he now sells bubble tea. I
don't know what I hate the most tapioca or bergamot.

Jim

Derek > wrote in message >...
> Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:
>
> > I've been drinking a wonderful
> > Taiwan Orange Blossom (flowers) oolong from my local tea shoppe.
>
> Now that sounds absolutely tasty.

Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:

> I looked all over the Internet and can't find Orange Blossom tisane
> for sale from anybody. I know it becomes an orange but you'd think
> the Florida farmers would harvest before hard freezes. I'll check a
> couple of herbal stores locally. My local tea shoppe sells all tea
> infusions for the same price. Knowing this I usually walk out with a
> cup of the more expensive stuff like silver needles or kokeicha.
> Recently he's been selling a genmaicha with matcha making a
> psychedelic green concoction. Oh yes he now sells bubble tea. I
> don't know what I hate the most tapioca or bergamot.

The tapioca. Most definitely the tapioca.

--
Derek

Scintillate, scintillate globule vivific
Fain would I fathom thy nature specific
Loftily perched in the ether capacious
Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous.

Space Cowboy rose quietly and spake the following:

> I looked all over the Internet and can't find Orange Blossom tisane
> for sale from anybody. I know it becomes an orange but you'd think
> the Florida farmers would harvest before hard freezes. I'll check a
> couple of herbal stores locally. My local tea shoppe sells all tea
> infusions for the same price. Knowing this I usually walk out with a
> cup of the more expensive stuff like silver needles or kokeicha.
> Recently he's been selling a genmaicha with matcha making a
> psychedelic green concoction. Oh yes he now sells bubble tea. I
> don't know what I hate the most tapioca or bergamot.

The tapioca. Most definitely the tapioca.

--
Derek

Scintillate, scintillate globule vivific
Fain would I fathom thy nature specific
Loftily perched in the ether capacious
Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous.

Jim, what Metro library would that be may I ask? I just asked our
local county referance librarian and they said that the only two
copies they could find were the British Library and the Kanagawa
University Library in Japan. After reading the table of contents on
the page you linked to, it sounds very interesting...if I can access
it relatively easily for free that is. Thanks.




(Space Cowboy) wrote in message . com>...
> If you've got an extra $700 buy The Tea Industry by Nick Hall
> http://www.woodhead-publishing.com/f...ricul/tea.html
>
> It's in our metro library system as a reference but across town but
> one of these days .... If you want to write a book use Lexus\Nexus
> and conduct a few phone interviews.
>
> Jim
>
> (Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com>...
> > > Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
>
> > > I have the same kind of ambivalence about the Evans book. He's
> > > obviously a smart guy with a good sense of how the world works. He's
> > > done a lot of research, and I, for one, learned quite a bit by reading
> > > his book. But tea in China is a vast topic, and it's a small book. I
> > > suspect he wrote about what he was interested in, and non-green,
> > > non-red was outside his experience.
> >
> > I agree. After reading the book, I have got an impression af a smart
> > all-round guy, who can write about just anything under the sun,
> > provided that he is allowed to do a substantial research on the topic.