When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a serving of
leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor? If it is in a serving
of leaf then if you re-steep one serving of leaf 5 times you're
obviously not getting much extra caffiene (or antioxidant etc..) but
if the numbers are averaged out for a cup of the brewed liquor then 5
steeps means around 35 mg of caffiene multiplied by five! I assume it
is the former and not the latter but I have never read anything that
would clarify it one way or the other, and I have done a fair amount
of reading on the subject. Anyone know?

(bruce) writes:

> When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
> antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a serving of
> leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor?

I'm sure they mean a cup of the liquor.

> If it is in a serving of leaf then if you re-steep one serving of
> leaf 5 times you're obviously not getting much extra caffiene (or
> antioxidant etc..) but if the numbers are averaged out for a cup of
> the brewed liquor then 5 steeps means around 35 mg of caffiene
> multiplied by five! I assume it is the former and not the latter
> but I have never read anything that would clarify it one way or the
> other, and I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject.
> Anyone know?

Even though it's only a question of the liquor, there is vagueness in
lots of published numbers when it comes to steep times and
temperatures, as well as multiple steeps. (Multiple steeps are
important with regard to caffeine when the temperature is relatively
low and the first steep is fairly swift, which is the way most people
who like green teas do it.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:

> Even though it's only a question of the liquor, there is vagueness in
> lots of published numbers when it comes to steep times and
> temperatures, as well as multiple steeps. (Multiple steeps are
> important with regard to caffeine when the temperature is relatively
> low and the first steep is fairly swift, which is the way most people
> who like green teas do it.)

It also stands to reason that substances other than caffeine are
affected by multiple steeps. For example, I simply cannot believe
that the anti-oxidants in a cup of liquor from the 3rd steep are
close to the same that they were for the 1st steep.


Randy

Lewis Perin wrote:

> Even though it's only a question of the liquor, there is vagueness in
> lots of published numbers when it comes to steep times and
> temperatures, as well as multiple steeps. (Multiple steeps are
> important with regard to caffeine when the temperature is relatively
> low and the first steep is fairly swift, which is the way most people
> who like green teas do it.)

It also stands to reason that substances other than caffeine are
affected by multiple steeps. For example, I simply cannot believe
that the anti-oxidants in a cup of liquor from the 3rd steep are
close to the same that they were for the 1st steep.


Randy

Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> (bruce) writes:
>
> > When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
> > antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a serving of
> > leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor?
>
> I'm sure they mean a cup of the liquor.
>
You're sure? That just doesn't make sense to me. There is no
way there is that much caffeine (or polyphenol etc..) in one teaspoon
of green tea leaf. In that same literature we read that black tea has
more caffeine than green, but most people re-steep green tea many more
times than black (at least as far as I know, I really only drink green
tea so some black tea drinkers out there feel free to correct me) so
the green tea drinkers would be getting TONS while the black tea
drinkers would get less.

> > If it is in a serving of leaf then if you re-steep one serving of
> > leaf 5 times you're obviously not getting much extra caffiene (or
> > antioxidant etc..) but if the numbers are averaged out for a cup of
> > the brewed liquor then 5 steeps means around 35 mg of caffiene
> > multiplied by five! I assume it is the former and not the latter
> > but I have never read anything that would clarify it one way or the
> > other, and I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject.
> > Anyone know?
>
> Even though it's only a question of the liquor, there is vagueness in
> lots of published numbers when it comes to steep times and
> temperatures, as well as multiple steeps.
>
> Yes the numbers always vary a lot and are never definite. I think mabey I asked an impossible question, there might be just too many variables to get any kind of accurate answer unless you test the exact leaf in question.

Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> (bruce) writes:
>
> > When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
> > antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a serving of
> > leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor?
>
> I'm sure they mean a cup of the liquor.
>
You're sure? That just doesn't make sense to me. There is no
way there is that much caffeine (or polyphenol etc..) in one teaspoon
of green tea leaf. In that same literature we read that black tea has
more caffeine than green, but most people re-steep green tea many more
times than black (at least as far as I know, I really only drink green
tea so some black tea drinkers out there feel free to correct me) so
the green tea drinkers would be getting TONS while the black tea
drinkers would get less.

> > If it is in a serving of leaf then if you re-steep one serving of
> > leaf 5 times you're obviously not getting much extra caffiene (or
> > antioxidant etc..) but if the numbers are averaged out for a cup of
> > the brewed liquor then 5 steeps means around 35 mg of caffiene
> > multiplied by five! I assume it is the former and not the latter
> > but I have never read anything that would clarify it one way or the
> > other, and I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject.
> > Anyone know?
>
> Even though it's only a question of the liquor, there is vagueness in
> lots of published numbers when it comes to steep times and
> temperatures, as well as multiple steeps.
>
> Yes the numbers always vary a lot and are never definite. I think mabey I asked an impossible question, there might be just too many variables to get any kind of accurate answer unless you test the exact leaf in question.

(bruce) writes:

> Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> > (bruce) writes:
> >
> > > When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
> > > antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a
> > > serving of leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor?
> >
> > I'm sure they mean a cup of the liquor.
> >
> You're sure? That just doesn't make sense to me. There is no
> way there is that much caffeine (or polyphenol etc..) in one
> teaspoon of green tea leaf.

Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
in a teaspoon of leaf?

> In that same literature we read that black tea has more caffeine
> than green, but most people re-steep green tea many more times than
> black (at least as far as I know, I really only drink green tea so
> some black tea drinkers out there feel free to correct me) so the
> green tea drinkers would be getting TONS while the black tea
> drinkers would get less.

What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

(bruce) writes:

> Lewis Perin > wrote in message >...
> > (bruce) writes:
> >
> > > When you read an article that says there is so much caffeine (or
> > > antioxidant, or whatever) in a cup of tea, does that mean a
> > > serving of leaf or does that mean in a cup of the liquor?
> >
> > I'm sure they mean a cup of the liquor.
> >
> You're sure? That just doesn't make sense to me. There is no
> way there is that much caffeine (or polyphenol etc..) in one
> teaspoon of green tea leaf.

Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
in a teaspoon of leaf?

> In that same literature we read that black tea has more caffeine
> than green, but most people re-steep green tea many more times than
> black (at least as far as I know, I really only drink green tea so
> some black tea drinkers out there feel free to correct me) so the
> green tea drinkers would be getting TONS while the black tea
> drinkers would get less.

What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
> in a teaspoon of leaf?

Most of what I have read says there is roughly 35 mg caffeine in a
"cup" of green tea. So I am wondering if this number applies to a
serving of the leaf or is it applied to one of the 5 or so "cups" you
can get from a serving of that leaf? I can't believe there is 35 mg
of caffiene multiplied by 5 cups in one teaspoon of leaf. We all know
that most of the caffiene comes out early in the steeping, and the
rest of the stuff (amino acids, polyphenols etc..) comes out in later
steeps, but I am wondering about the total amounts. When I drink
green I get many steeps, usually at least 5, while black tea gives me
two steeps at best.

> > What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
> uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
> measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
> boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
> short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)

Ah-ha. So you think mabey they are steeping green tea for 5 min. in
boiling water in the lab? That could be, that way they are treating
all teas the same way (I still can't imagine a japanese scientist for
example pouring boiling water on some sencha and letting it sit there
for five min. seems a little funny even in the lab)
I don't think I have read anything that talked about the difference
in steeping temperature with regard to caffiene. What have you heard
about this?

> Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
> in a teaspoon of leaf?

Most of what I have read says there is roughly 35 mg caffeine in a
"cup" of green tea. So I am wondering if this number applies to a
serving of the leaf or is it applied to one of the 5 or so "cups" you
can get from a serving of that leaf? I can't believe there is 35 mg
of caffiene multiplied by 5 cups in one teaspoon of leaf. We all know
that most of the caffiene comes out early in the steeping, and the
rest of the stuff (amino acids, polyphenols etc..) comes out in later
steeps, but I am wondering about the total amounts. When I drink
green I get many steeps, usually at least 5, while black tea gives me
two steeps at best.

> > What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
> uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
> measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
> boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
> short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)

Ah-ha. So you think mabey they are steeping green tea for 5 min. in
boiling water in the lab? That could be, that way they are treating
all teas the same way (I still can't imagine a japanese scientist for
example pouring boiling water on some sencha and letting it sit there
for five min. seems a little funny even in the lab)
I don't think I have read anything that talked about the difference
in steeping temperature with regard to caffiene. What have you heard
about this?

(bruce) writes:

> > Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
> > in a teaspoon of leaf?
>
> Most of what I have read says there is roughly 35 mg caffeine in a
> "cup" of green tea. So I am wondering if this number applies to a
> serving of the leaf or is it applied to one of the 5 or so "cups" you
> can get from a serving of that leaf?

In most of what I've read, it isn't clear what they did to extract the
caffeine.

> I can't believe there is 35 mg of caffiene multiplied by 5 cups in
> one teaspoon of leaf.

Agreed.

> We all know that most of the caffiene comes out early in the
> steeping, and the rest of the stuff (amino acids, polyphenols etc..)
> comes out in later steeps, but I am wondering about the total
> amounts. When I drink green I get many steeps, usually at least 5,
> while black tea gives me two steeps at best.
>
> > What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
> > uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
> > measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
> > boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
> > short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)
>
> Ah-ha. So you think mabey they are steeping green tea for 5 min. in
> boiling water in the lab?

Probably some of them are doing that.

> That could be, that way they are treating all teas the same way (I
> still can't imagine a japanese scientist for example pouring boiling
> water on some sencha and letting it sit there for five min. seems a
> little funny even in the lab)

There are probably some young Japanese scientists by now who grew up
on Coca-Cola and coffee.

> I don't think I have read anything that talked about the difference
> in steeping temperature with regard to caffiene. What have you
> heard about this?

I think you can find something about this from past threads in this
group by checking Google Groups. The way I remember it, it comes down
to the fact that caffeine, like many - nearly all? - substances, is
more soluble in water as temperature rises. I'm sure Dog Ma will slap
me down if I'm wrong here!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

(bruce) writes:

> > Sorry, I'm confused now. There's no way there is *how much* caffeine
> > in a teaspoon of leaf?
>
> Most of what I have read says there is roughly 35 mg caffeine in a
> "cup" of green tea. So I am wondering if this number applies to a
> serving of the leaf or is it applied to one of the 5 or so "cups" you
> can get from a serving of that leaf?

In most of what I've read, it isn't clear what they did to extract the
caffeine.

> I can't believe there is 35 mg of caffiene multiplied by 5 cups in
> one teaspoon of leaf.

Agreed.

> We all know that most of the caffiene comes out early in the
> steeping, and the rest of the stuff (amino acids, polyphenols etc..)
> comes out in later steeps, but I am wondering about the total
> amounts. When I drink green I get many steeps, usually at least 5,
> while black tea gives me two steeps at best.
>
> > What I've seen of that literature suffers from a lack of clarity and
> > uniformity as to exactly what was done to yield the liquor they
> > measured. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that 5 minutes of
> > boiling leaves (typical for black) might yield more caffeine than 3
> > short, relatively cool steeps (of green.)
>
> Ah-ha. So you think mabey they are steeping green tea for 5 min. in
> boiling water in the lab?

Probably some of them are doing that.

> That could be, that way they are treating all teas the same way (I
> still can't imagine a japanese scientist for example pouring boiling
> water on some sencha and letting it sit there for five min. seems a
> little funny even in the lab)

There are probably some young Japanese scientists by now who grew up
on Coca-Cola and coffee.

> I don't think I have read anything that talked about the difference
> in steeping temperature with regard to caffiene. What have you
> heard about this?

I think you can find something about this from past threads in this
group by checking Google Groups. The way I remember it, it comes down
to the fact that caffeine, like many - nearly all? - substances, is
more soluble in water as temperature rises. I'm sure Dog Ma will slap
me down if I'm wrong here!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin
> I think you can find something about this from past threads in this
> group by checking Google Groups. The way I remember it, it comes down
> to the fact that caffeine, like many - nearly all? - substances, is
> more soluble in water as temperature rises. I'm sure Dog Ma will slap
> me down if I'm wrong here!

True all around, except that I'd never slap so distinguished a gentleman -
who also, given the diversity of his Oriental education, is probably both
kinds of gong-fu master.

Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the pseudo-scientific
assertions that I've removed most of my former posts on this and related
subjects. Whatever one says, someone (often less informed) disagrees, so
they didn't seem a useful addition to the archive. Perhaps one of us will
borrow a lab for a week, do the definitive series of experiments, and end
the argument. Amazing that it hasn't been done already, and published on the
Web.

-DM

Lewis Perin
> I think you can find something about this from past threads in this
> group by checking Google Groups. The way I remember it, it comes down
> to the fact that caffeine, like many - nearly all? - substances, is
> more soluble in water as temperature rises. I'm sure Dog Ma will slap
> me down if I'm wrong here!

True all around, except that I'd never slap so distinguished a gentleman -
who also, given the diversity of his Oriental education, is probably both
kinds of gong-fu master.

Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the pseudo-scientific
assertions that I've removed most of my former posts on this and related
subjects. Whatever one says, someone (often less informed) disagrees, so
they didn't seem a useful addition to the archive. Perhaps one of us will
borrow a lab for a week, do the definitive series of experiments, and end
the argument. Amazing that it hasn't been done already, and published on the
Web.

-DM

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:

> [...no slap...]
>
> Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the
> pseudo-scientific assertions that I've removed most of my former
> posts on this and related subjects. Whatever one says, someone
> (often less informed) disagrees, so they didn't seem a useful
> addition to the archive.

You mean you removed those posts from Google Groups? I sure hope not:
that would leave the less-informed posts unchallenged.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:

> [...no slap...]
>
> Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the
> pseudo-scientific assertions that I've removed most of my former
> posts on this and related subjects. Whatever one says, someone
> (often less informed) disagrees, so they didn't seem a useful
> addition to the archive.

You mean you removed those posts from Google Groups? I sure hope not:
that would leave the less-informed posts unchallenged.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Green tea has the same amount of caffeine as black.

Before I knew better, I brewed green tea for 5-6 minutes. It makes a
bitter tea with quite a bit of kick, but it takes alot of will to drink it.
Proper brewing is MUCH better.

My understanding is if you do the traditional "gongfu cha" brewing method
you get most of the caffeine out during the first steeping, subsequent
steepings have less caffeine. I have no idea about polyphenols, but I
suspect it's similar, as the polyphenols in green tea are 95 percent
absorbed by the water in about 3 minutes.

Also, some decaffination processes remove polyphenols, but there is
disagreement on this point in the literature I have read.

Green tea has the same amount of caffeine as black.

Before I knew better, I brewed green tea for 5-6 minutes. It makes a
bitter tea with quite a bit of kick, but it takes alot of will to drink it.
Proper brewing is MUCH better.

My understanding is if you do the traditional "gongfu cha" brewing method
you get most of the caffeine out during the first steeping, subsequent
steepings have less caffeine. I have no idea about polyphenols, but I
suspect it's similar, as the polyphenols in green tea are 95 percent
absorbed by the water in about 3 minutes.

Also, some decaffination processes remove polyphenols, but there is
disagreement on this point in the literature I have read.

Green tea has the same amount of caffeine as black.

Before I knew better, I brewed green tea for 5-6 minutes. It makes a
bitter tea with quite a bit of kick, but it takes alot of will to drink it.
Proper brewing is MUCH better.

My understanding is if you do the traditional "gongfu cha" brewing method
you get most of the caffeine out during the first steeping, subsequent
steepings have less caffeine. I have no idea about polyphenols, but I
suspect it's similar, as the polyphenols in green tea are 95 percent
absorbed by the water in about 3 minutes.

Also, some decaffination processes remove polyphenols, but there is
disagreement on this point in the literature I have read.

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:
>
>>Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the
>>pseudo-scientific assertions that I've removed most of my former
>>posts on this and related subjects. Whatever one says, someone
>>(often less informed) disagrees, so they didn't seem a useful
>>addition to the archive.
>
> You mean you removed those posts from Google Groups? I sure hope not:
> that would leave the less-informed posts unchallenged.
>
> /Lew

Maybe some of the more justified assertions could be covered in the
FAQ... Of course, we don't want the FAQ to put us out of business.. heh

Steve

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:
>
>>Personally, I've gotten so annoyed with all the the
>>pseudo-scientific assertions that I've removed most of my former
>>posts on this and related subjects. Whatever one says, someone
>>(often less informed) disagrees, so they didn't seem a useful
>>addition to the archive.
>
> You mean you removed those posts from Google Groups? I sure hope not:
> that would leave the less-informed posts unchallenged.
>
> /Lew

Maybe some of the more justified assertions could be covered in the
FAQ... Of course, we don't want the FAQ to put us out of business.. heh

Steve