FoodBanter.com - Meaning and scope of "bingcha" and "tuocha"?

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Joel Reicher

16-09-2004 09:11 AM

Meaning and scope of "bingcha" and "tuocha"?

I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.

"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.

"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)

Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?

I've come across others (jincha, zhuancha) and would appreciate the
same info about those.

Thanks,

- Joel

Mike Petro

16-09-2004 11:28 AM

Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
literal definitions.

>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
>
>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
Yes, that is accurate
>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
Yes, that is accurate
>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
Yes, that is accurate
>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
>too?
Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)
san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike Petro

16-09-2004 11:28 AM

Lewis Perin

16-09-2004 02:57 PM

Mike Petro > writes:

> [...]
> >Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
> pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
> cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
> bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
> pastry /
> tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
> tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
> tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
> fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
> zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
> jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
> proper Chinese character)

jin3 = tight

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin

16-09-2004 02:57 PM

Alex Chaihorsky

16-09-2004 08:00 PM

Mike,

Excellent pages, great info.
I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink". Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).

Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C. sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.

On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the pinyin
for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you actually
know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)

Sasha.

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Joel,
>
> Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
> or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
> Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
> http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
> literal definitions.
>
>>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
>>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
>>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
>>
>>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
> Yes, that is accurate
>>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
> Yes, that is accurate
>>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
> Yes, that is accurate
>>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
>>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
>>too?
> Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.
>
>>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
> pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
> cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
> bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
> pastry /
> tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
> tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
> tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
> fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
> zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
> jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
> proper Chinese character)
> san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up
>
>
>
> Mike Petro
> http://www.pu-erh.net
> remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Alex Chaihorsky

16-09-2004 08:00 PM

Livio Zanini

18-09-2004 12:14 AM

> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.

Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu, but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Livio Zanini

18-09-2004 12:14 AM

Alex Chaihorsky

18-09-2004 03:17 AM

Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese (I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.

"Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
>> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
>> should
>> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> Although
>> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
>> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
>> "tea"
>> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
>> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> sinensis" -
>> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
>> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
>
>
> Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
> evolution
> of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
> "bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
> the
> Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
> but
> it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
> to
> indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
> Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
> of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
> It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
> the
> time the character "cha2" came in to use.
> Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
> equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
> the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
> leaves.
> As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
> "shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
> sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
> indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
> them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
> preparing
> drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
> (Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
> (beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).
>
>

Alex Chaihorsky

18-09-2004 03:17 AM

samarkand

20-09-2004 09:29 PM

Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
. com...
> Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
> connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
> toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.
>
> One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
> Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.
>
> Experiment one:
> Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
> am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
> follow):
> " I want some CHA".
> Person B asked "What kind?"
> Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"
>
> If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
> request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
> If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.
>
> My questions to you:
> 1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
> 2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex.
>
>
>
>
> "Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
> >> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
> >> should
> >> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> > Although
> >> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
> >> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
> >> "tea"
> >> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
> >> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> > sinensis" -
> >> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
> >> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
> >
> >
> > Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
> > evolution
> > of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
> > "bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
> > the
> > Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
> > but
> > it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
> > to
> > indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
> > Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
> > of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
> > It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
> > the
> > time the character "cha2" came in to use.
> > Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
> > equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
> > the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
> > leaves.
> > As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
> > "shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
> > sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
> > indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
> > them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
> > preparing
> > drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
> > (Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
> > (beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).
> >
> >
>
>

samarkand

20-09-2004 09:29 PM

Alex Chaihorsky

20-09-2004 10:05 PM

Exactly.
And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped
beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best
translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other than
C. sinenis plants.
I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called it
some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.

Sasha.

"samarkand" > wrote in message
...
> Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
> but let's look at your experiment now:
>
> Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:
>
> In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -
>
> when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
> beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
> quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
> he'll say 'I want CHA'.
>
> In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
> sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not
> particular
> where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B
> is
> ready for whatever choice A comes up with.
>
> In both instances, B is not surprised.
>
> More commonly, the exchange might be:
>
> A: I want some Cha
> B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
> A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
> B: Sugared or non sugared?
> A: Sugared...
>
>
> "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
> cha2
>> connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
>> toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.
>>
>> One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
>> Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.
>>
>> Experiment one:
>> Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
> (I
>> am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
>> follow):
>> " I want some CHA".
>> Person B asked "What kind?"
>> Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"
>>
>> If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
>> request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
>> If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.
>>
>> My questions to you:
>> 1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
>> 2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alex.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
>> >> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
>> >> should
>> >> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
>> > Although
>> >> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
> used.
>> >> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
>> >> "tea"
>> >> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
>> >> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
>> > sinensis" -
>> >> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
> radical
>> >> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
>> >
>> >
>> > Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
>> > evolution
>> > of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
> of
>> > "bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
>> > the
>> > Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
>> > but
>> > it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when
>> > used
>> > to
>> > indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
> plants".
>> > Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
> "buds
>> > of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
>> > It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped
>> > by
>> > the
>> > time the character "cha2" came in to use.
>> > Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
>> > equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
> plant,
>> > the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
>> > leaves.
>> > As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
>> > "shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
>> > sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
>> > indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
> with
>> > them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
>> > preparing
>> > drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
>> > (Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
>> > (beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Alex Chaihorsky

20-09-2004 10:05 PM

samarkand

21-09-2004 12:37 PM

Hi there (Alex? Sasha?)

Just to point out your definition of 'Ming'. Your definition belongs to an
archaic meaning, MING in the past - that's during the Tang dysnasty (AD618)
& before. MING indicates more than being the leaves of C Sinensis, it
actually meant the flush of TU, and TU did not only meant C Sinensis, but a
collective term of leaves that makes a bitter brew. Both Lu Yu & Lu Yan Can
made it very clear in their works The Book of Tea, & Contiuning The Book of
Tea, respectively.

MING in present usuage does not indicate the flush, but the drink.

Lu Yu was probably the man who single handedly picked a handed to the world
the word CHA from the list of words that could have or not meant C Sinensis.
He first listed the few words that meant TEA as a beverage: CHA, TU, JIA,
SHE, CHUAN, MING etc, and gave each other specific meaning in relation to
tea. Then he picked out the word CHA and used it as a singular word
throughout the rest of the book, thereby acknowledging the status of the
word CHA as a PLANT, to indicate C Sinensis.

The confusion and debates often arise in Tea as a beverage. But that's
another story.

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
. com...
> Mike,
>
> Excellent pages, great info.
> I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.
>
> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
>
> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
>
> On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the pinyin
> for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you
actually
> know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)
>
> Sasha.
>
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
> > or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
> > Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
> > http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
> > literal definitions.
> >
> >>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
> >>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
> >>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
> >>
> >>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
> > Yes, that is accurate
> >>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
> > Yes, that is accurate
> >>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
> > Yes, that is accurate
> >>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
> >>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
> >>too?
> > Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.
> >
> >>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
> > pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
> > cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
> > bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
> > pastry /
> > tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
> > tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
> > tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
> > fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
> > zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
> > jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
> > proper Chinese character)
> > san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Petro
> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> > remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
>
>

samarkand

21-09-2004 12:37 PM

samarkand

28-09-2004 08:16 PM

Ah no, when the chinese first knew coffee, they called it Ka Fei, after the
word Cafe. I'm not surprised the French might the first to introduce the
beans to the chinese, in Yunnan, where a small potent amount is still being
cultivated...can anyone verify this fact for me?

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly.
> And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped
> beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best
> translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other
than
> C. sinenis plants.
> I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called
it
> some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.
>
> Sasha.
>
> "samarkand" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the
time,
> > but let's look at your experiment now:
> >
> > Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:
> >
> > In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -
> >
> > when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means
any
> > beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
> > quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C
sinensis,
> > he'll say 'I want CHA'.
> >
> > In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
> > sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not
> > particular
> > where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B
> > is
> > ready for whatever choice A comes up with.
> >
> > In both instances, B is not surprised.
> >
> > More commonly, the exchange might be:
> >
> > A: I want some Cha
> > B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
> > A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
> > B: Sugared or non sugared?
> > A: Sugared...
> >
> >
> > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
> > cha2
> >> connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point
me
> >> toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.
> >>
> >> One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
> >> Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought
experiments.
> >>
> >> Experiment one:
> >> Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in
Chinese
> > (I
> >> am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
> >> follow):
> >> " I want some CHA".
> >> Person B asked "What kind?"
> >> Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"
> >>
> >> If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
> >> request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
> >> If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.
> >>
> >> My questions to you:
> >> 1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
> >> 2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Alex.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Livio Zanini" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right
for
> >> >> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
> >> >> should
> >> >> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> >> > Although
> >> >> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
> > used.
> >> >> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
> >> >> "tea"
> >> >> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
> >> >> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> >> > sinensis" -
> >> >> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
> > radical
> >> >> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
> >> > evolution
> >> > of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a
kind
> > of
> >> > "bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only
in
> >> > the
> >> > Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu
Yu,
> >> > but
> >> > it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when
> >> > used
> >> > to
> >> > indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
> > plants".
> >> > Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
> > "buds
> >> > of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
> >> > It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped
> >> > by
> >> > the
> >> > time the character "cha2" came in to use.
> >> > Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as
its
> >> > equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
> > plant,
> >> > the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
> >> > leaves.
> >> > As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the
term
> >> > "shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which
C.
> >> > sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage
it
> >> > indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
> > with
> >> > them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
> >> > preparing
> >> > drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
> >> > (Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
> >> > (beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Alex Chaihorsky

29-09-2004 10:44 AM

All my searches in contemporary dictionaries yielded MING as a word for C.
Sinensis rather that tea as a drink.
Can you quote your sources?

Sasha.

"samarkand" > wrote in message
...
> Hi there (Alex? Sasha?)
>
> Just to point out your definition of 'Ming'. Your definition belongs to
> an
> archaic meaning, MING in the past - that's during the Tang dysnasty
> (AD618)
> & before. MING indicates more than being the leaves of C Sinensis, it
> actually meant the flush of TU, and TU did not only meant C Sinensis, but
> a
> collective term of leaves that makes a bitter brew. Both Lu Yu & Lu Yan
> Can
> made it very clear in their works The Book of Tea, & Contiuning The Book
> of
> Tea, respectively.
>
> MING in present usuage does not indicate the flush, but the drink.
>
> Lu Yu was probably the man who single handedly picked a handed to the
> world
> the word CHA from the list of words that could have or not meant C
> Sinensis.
> He first listed the few words that meant TEA as a beverage: CHA, TU, JIA,
> SHE, CHUAN, MING etc, and gave each other specific meaning in relation to
> tea. Then he picked out the word CHA and used it as a singular word
> throughout the rest of the book, thereby acknowledging the status of the
> word CHA as a PLANT, to indicate C Sinensis.
>
> The confusion and debates often arise in Tea as a beverage. But that's
> another story.
>
>
> "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> Mike,
>>
>> Excellent pages, great info.
>> I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.
>>
>> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
>> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
>> should
>> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> Although
>> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
>> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
>> "tea"
>> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
>>
>> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> sinensis" -
>> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
>> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
>>
>> On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the
>> pinyin
>> for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you
> actually
>> know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)
>>
>> Sasha.
>>
>>
>> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Hi Joel,
>> >
>> > Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
>> > or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
>> > Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
>> > http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
>> > literal definitions.
>> >
>> >>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
>> >>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
>> >>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
>> >>
>> >>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
>> > Yes, that is accurate
>> >>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
>> > Yes, that is accurate
>> >>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
>> > Yes, that is accurate
>> >>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
>> >>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
>> >>too?
>> > Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.
>> >
>> >>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
>> > pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
>> > cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
>> > bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
>> > pastry /
>> > tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
>> > tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
>> > tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
>> > fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
>> > zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
>> > jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
>> > proper Chinese character)
>> > san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike Petro
>> > http://www.pu-erh.net
>> > remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
>>
>>
>
>

samarkand

29-09-2004 12:28 PM

Yes. The definition of MING is taken from Xiandai Hanyu Xin Cidian,
published by Commerical Press, on page 569: MING, used to indicate a type
of tea leaf in the past, now it indicates a tea that's brewed...

In chinese MING is presently not used as a stand alone noun, it usually
requires an adjective or verb to justify its existence. Hence the words Pin
Ming - to partake in a session of tea drinking; or Xiang Ming - fragrant tea
(not the leaf but the beverage). Another word which is rarely used, is Ming
Ding, meaning intoxicated.

Samar.

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
...
> All my searches in contemporary dictionaries yielded MING as a word for C.
> Sinensis rather that tea as a drink.
> Can you quote your sources?
>
> Sasha.
>
> "samarkand" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi there (Alex? Sasha?)
> >
> > Just to point out your definition of 'Ming'. Your definition belongs to
> > an
> > archaic meaning, MING in the past - that's during the Tang dysnasty
> > (AD618)
> > & before. MING indicates more than being the leaves of C Sinensis, it
> > actually meant the flush of TU, and TU did not only meant C Sinensis,
but
> > a
> > collective term of leaves that makes a bitter brew. Both Lu Yu & Lu Yan
> > Can
> > made it very clear in their works The Book of Tea, & Contiuning The
Book
> > of
> > Tea, respectively.
> >
> > MING in present usuage does not indicate the flush, but the drink.
> >
> > Lu Yu was probably the man who single handedly picked a handed to the
> > world
> > the word CHA from the list of words that could have or not meant C
> > Sinensis.
> > He first listed the few words that meant TEA as a beverage: CHA, TU,
JIA,
> > SHE, CHUAN, MING etc, and gave each other specific meaning in relation
to
> > tea. Then he picked out the word CHA and used it as a singular word
> > throughout the rest of the book, thereby acknowledging the status of the
> > word CHA as a PLANT, to indicate C Sinensis.
> >
> > The confusion and debates often arise in Tea as a beverage. But that's
> > another story.
> >
> >
> > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> Excellent pages, great info.
> >> I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.
> >>
> >> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
> >> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
> >> should
> >> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> > Although
> >> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
> >> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
> >> "tea"
> >> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
> >>
> >> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> > sinensis" -
> >> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
> >> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
> >>
> >> On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the
> >> pinyin
> >> for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you
> > actually
> >> know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)
> >>
> >> Sasha.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Hi Joel,
> >> >
> >> > Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
> >> > or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
> >> > Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
> >> > http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
> >> > literal definitions.
> >> >
> >> >>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
> >> >>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
> >> >>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
> >> >>
> >> >>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or
tuocha,
> >> >>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
> >> >>too?
> >> > Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.
> >> >
> >> >>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
> >> > pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
> >> > cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
> >> > bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
> >> > pastry /
> >> > tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
> >> > tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
> >> > tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
> >> > fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
> >> > zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
> >> > jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched
the
> >> > proper Chinese character)
> >> > san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Mike Petro
> >> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> >> > remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

samarkand

29-09-2004 01:16 PM

Sasha,

If you could tell me which contemporary dictionaries you are using, maybe I
can search through them and see also what their definitions are?

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
...
> All my searches in contemporary dictionaries yielded MING as a word for C.
> Sinensis rather that tea as a drink.
> Can you quote your sources?
>
> Sasha.
>
> "samarkand" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi there (Alex? Sasha?)
> >
> > Just to point out your definition of 'Ming'. Your definition belongs to
> > an
> > archaic meaning, MING in the past - that's during the Tang dysnasty
> > (AD618)
> > & before. MING indicates more than being the leaves of C Sinensis, it
> > actually meant the flush of TU, and TU did not only meant C Sinensis,
but
> > a
> > collective term of leaves that makes a bitter brew. Both Lu Yu & Lu Yan
> > Can
> > made it very clear in their works The Book of Tea, & Contiuning The
Book
> > of
> > Tea, respectively.
> >
> > MING in present usuage does not indicate the flush, but the drink.
> >
> > Lu Yu was probably the man who single handedly picked a handed to the
> > world
> > the word CHA from the list of words that could have or not meant C
> > Sinensis.
> > He first listed the few words that meant TEA as a beverage: CHA, TU,
JIA,
> > SHE, CHUAN, MING etc, and gave each other specific meaning in relation
to
> > tea. Then he picked out the word CHA and used it as a singular word
> > throughout the rest of the book, thereby acknowledging the status of the
> > word CHA as a PLANT, to indicate C Sinensis.
> >
> > The confusion and debates often arise in Tea as a beverage. But that's
> > another story.
> >
> >
> > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> Excellent pages, great info.
> >> I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.
> >>
> >> Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
> >> general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
> >> should
> >> be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
> > Although
> >> 99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
> >> Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
> >> "tea"
> >> can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
> >>
> >> Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
> > sinensis" -
> >> its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
> >> (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.
> >>
> >> On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the
> >> pinyin
> >> for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you
> > actually
> >> know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)
> >>
> >> Sasha.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Hi Joel,
> >> >
> >> > Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
> >> > or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
> >> > Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
> >> > http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
> >> > literal definitions.
> >> >
> >> >>I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
> >> >>people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
> >> >>satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?
> >> >>
> >> >>In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
> >> > Yes, that is accurate
> >> >>Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or
tuocha,
> >> >>i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
> >> >>too?
> >> > Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.
> >> >
> >> >>Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
> >> > pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
> >> > cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
> >> > bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
> >> > pastry /
> >> > tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
> >> > tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
> >> > tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
> >> > fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
> >> > zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
> >> > jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched
the
> >> > proper Chinese character)
> >> > san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Mike Petro
> >> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> >> > remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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