Hi all,

Well I got a sample of this oolong with an order several weeks ago and
would like to know if others have tried it. I did do a group search
and saw some older reviews. I have a storebought Tai Kwan Yin that is
going south, so getting to try another oolong was good for my
tastebuds. The leaves in this are different from anything I myself
have seen before, in the dry form. They're very...angular. I want to
say very crispy but I don't mean in texture or quality...they have a
lot of sharp edges, defined edges. The leaves remind me of apple peels
that have curled up when toasted or baked. Even though I am really a
relative beginner to the world of tea, and though my tastebuds aren't
refined much at all, there is one thing I can definitely say about
this Bai Hao. After I drank it out of what passes as my
smelling/reserve cup, I put the empty cup down and forgot about it for
about thirty minutes. When I smelled it (the liquid had dried) I was
amazed by the sweetness of the scent in the cup. The wet leaves have
that scent but to me it's way way under woody smells, and the tea
liquid itself doesn't have that pronounced sweet smell to me. But the
dried smelling cup....wow! I've never experienced anything like that.
I mean it was like dried apricot jam or something. So anyway, I
thought I'd share. I know that my sensitivity to nuances in tea
tasting aren't where others' are (based on some of the detailed
descriptions I've read of various teas and then trying to pick out
those qualities myself) but this was definite enough to even me to be
worthy of comment.

No affilliation etc.

Melinda

(Melinda) writes:

> Hi all,
>
> Well I got a sample of this oolong with an order several weeks ago and
> would like to know if others have tried it. I did do a group search
> and saw some older reviews. I have a storebought Tai Kwan Yin that is
> going south, so getting to try another oolong was good for my
> tastebuds. The leaves in this are different from anything I myself
> have seen before, in the dry form. They're very...angular. I want to
> say very crispy but I don't mean in texture or quality...they have a
> lot of sharp edges, defined edges. The leaves remind me of apple peels
> that have curled up when toasted or baked. Even though I am really a
> relative beginner to the world of tea, and though my tastebuds aren't
> refined much at all, there is one thing I can definitely say about
> this Bai Hao. After I drank it out of what passes as my
> smelling/reserve cup, I put the empty cup down and forgot about it for
> about thirty minutes. When I smelled it (the liquid had dried) I was
> amazed by the sweetness of the scent in the cup. The wet leaves have
> that scent but to me it's way way under woody smells, and the tea
> liquid itself doesn't have that pronounced sweet smell to me. But the
> dried smelling cup....wow! I've never experienced anything like that.
> I mean it was like dried apricot jam or something. So anyway, I
> thought I'd share. I know that my sensitivity to nuances in tea
> tasting aren't where others' are (based on some of the detailed
> descriptions I've read of various teas and then trying to pick out
> those qualities myself) but this was definite enough to even me to be
> worthy of comment.

Hey, you weren't hallucinating, and you have every right to expect to
similar experiences in the future. Welcome to the world of oolong
sniffing!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Mmmmm.... Bai Hao. Judging nuances in tea is more than just a matter
of good senses. It involves building a tasting vocabulary, something
which can only be done with experience. The more tea you try, the
more distinct each individual tea becomes. It sounds as if you're
well on your way.

Cheers,

Cameron

(Melinda) wrote in message . com>...
> Hi all,
>
> Well I got a sample of this oolong with an order several weeks ago and
> would like to know if others have tried it. I did do a group search
> and saw some older reviews. I have a storebought Tai Kwan Yin that is
> going south, so getting to try another oolong was good for my
> tastebuds. The leaves in this are different from anything I myself
> have seen before, in the dry form. They're very...angular. I want to
> say very crispy but I don't mean in texture or quality...they have a
> lot of sharp edges, defined edges. The leaves remind me of apple peels
> that have curled up when toasted or baked. Even though I am really a
> relative beginner to the world of tea, and though my tastebuds aren't
> refined much at all, there is one thing I can definitely say about
> this Bai Hao. After I drank it out of what passes as my
> smelling/reserve cup, I put the empty cup down and forgot about it for
> about thirty minutes. When I smelled it (the liquid had dried) I was
> amazed by the sweetness of the scent in the cup. The wet leaves have
> that scent but to me it's way way under woody smells, and the tea
> liquid itself doesn't have that pronounced sweet smell to me. But the
> dried smelling cup....wow! I've never experienced anything like that.
> I mean it was like dried apricot jam or something. So anyway, I
> thought I'd share. I know that my sensitivity to nuances in tea
> tasting aren't where others' are (based on some of the detailed
> descriptions I've read of various teas and then trying to pick out
> those qualities myself) but this was definite enough to even me to be
> worthy of comment.
>
> No affilliation etc.
>
> Melinda

Cameron 11/10/04


> Mmmmm.... Bai Hao. Judging nuances in tea is more than just a matter
> of good senses. It involves building a tasting vocabulary, something
> which can only be done with experience. The more tea you try, the
> more distinct each individual tea becomes. It sounds as if you're
> well on your way.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cameron



Cameron,

I wonder. From another viewpoint, judging (experiencing/knowing) the nuances
of tea requires *no* vocabulary whatsoever; expressing and explaining these
nuances to others, and comparing one tea to another requires words.

Michael

My local tea shoppe has tastings where everybody describes the tea
taste. I've never attended because I would sound like a complete
idiot. I drink tea for the immediacy of the moment. So at any moment
in time all I could say is not good, not bad, ok, good, great, yum. I
more than anything appreciate infusion clues like freshness, smell,
color, purity, grade, and a great swansong. If it looks sexy in the
pot then the taste is a bonus and not a requirement. I've drank
enough tea of any variety to know what I like but I couldn't tell you
why in so many words. I've said this before the last time I tasted
Ceylon Lover's Leaf was twenty years ago and I remember how much I
like it. I just tasted it again at my local tea shoppe and memory
serves me right.

Jim

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> Cameron 11/10/04
>
>
> > Mmmmm.... Bai Hao. Judging nuances in tea is more than just a matter
> > of good senses. It involves building a tasting vocabulary, something
> > which can only be done with experience. The more tea you try, the
> > more distinct each individual tea becomes. It sounds as if you're
> > well on your way.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Cameron
>
> Cameron,
>
> I wonder. From another viewpoint, judging (experiencing/knowing) the nuances
> of tea requires *no* vocabulary whatsoever; expressing and explaining these
> nuances to others, and comparing one tea to another requires words.
>
> Michael

Space 11/10/04


> My local tea shoppe has tastings where everybody describes the tea
> taste. I've never attended because I would sound like a complete
> idiot. I drink tea for the immediacy of the moment. So at any moment
> in time all I could say is not good, not bad, ok, good, great, yum. I
> more than anything appreciate infusion clues like freshness, smell,
> color, purity, grade, and a great swansong. If it looks sexy in the
> pot then the taste is a bonus and not a requirement. I've drank
> enough tea of any variety to know what I like but I couldn't tell you
> why in so many words. I've said this before the last time I tasted
> Ceylon Lover's Leaf was twenty years ago and I remember how much I
> like it. I just tasted it again at my local tea shoppe and memory
> serves me right.
>
> Jim


Jim,

My guess is, if you did decide to attend one of these events, you would find
yourself surrounded by idiots of the pretentious and the simple orders. Why
not have a go, sit back, and enjoy us both? Another fun thing to do is to
invent words and then use them to describe a tea. If somebody calls you on
this, just look knowingly, slightly disappointed, and whistful, but don't
speak more. Works for me. As you know from long experience, it's not about
words, it's about tea.

Michael

Oh you mean behave like I do when I go to the symphony. I can't tell
you how long it took me to accept the fact that some employee measures
tea into a sock and hangs on the side of a large styrofoam cup then
topped off with hot water with a small decant cup for cups to go.
They've learned I don't need a lid or a timer. I haven't been to the
Friday night soirees because my wife can't stand the smell of smoky
teas which doesn't have a separate ventilation system for non smoky
tea drinkers like the one required for smokers in restaurants.

Jim

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> Space 11/10/04
>
>
> > My local tea shoppe has tastings where everybody describes the tea
> > taste. I've never attended because I would sound like a complete
> > idiot.
....bit bucket...
>
> Jim,
>
> My guess is, if you did decide to attend one of these events, you would find
> yourself surrounded by idiots of the pretentious and the simple orders. Why
> not have a go, sit back, and enjoy us both? Another fun thing to do is to
> invent words and then use them to describe a tea. If somebody calls you on
> this, just look knowingly, slightly disappointed, and whistful, but don't
> speak more. Works for me. As you know from long experience, it's not about
> words, it's about tea.
>
> Michael

What I meant was a catalogue of memories of tastes and aromas. I used
the word "tasting vocabulary" as a short form. The more memories of
distinct tastes you have, the better you can discriminate between
different teas, and the more significant each experience of tea
becomes. It is like learning a new language.

At first there is only a torrent of sound, which can barely be
distinguished from gibberish. Next comes a stage where one knows the
basic words and where a given sentence has meaning and can be
distinguished from another sentence. Then competence where coherent
speech is possible. Eventually fluency where each subtle shade of
difference and meaning is clear. The neophyte can hardly tell black
tea from green. The novice can discern the difference between the
categories (black, green, white, oolong, etc). The journeyman, can
identify regions and styles. The master knows the estate, the season,
the variance in processing techniques and whatnot.

Regards,

Cameron


Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> Cameron 11/10/04
>
>
> > Mmmmm.... Bai Hao. Judging nuances in tea is more than just a matter
> > of good senses. It involves building a tasting vocabulary, something
> > which can only be done with experience. The more tea you try, the
> > more distinct each individual tea becomes. It sounds as if you're
> > well on your way.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Cameron
>
>
>
> Cameron,
>
> I wonder. From another viewpoint, judging (experiencing/knowing) the nuances
> of tea requires *no* vocabulary whatsoever; expressing and explaining these
> nuances to others, and comparing one tea to another requires words.
>
> Michael

Cameron Lewis wrote:
>
> What I meant was a catalogue of memories of tastes and aromas. I used
> the word "tasting vocabulary" as a short form. The more memories of
> distinct tastes you have, the better you can discriminate between
> different teas, and the more significant each experience of tea
> becomes. It is like learning a new language.
>
> At first there is only a torrent of sound, which can barely be
> distinguished from gibberish. Next comes a stage where one knows the
> basic words and where a given sentence has meaning and can be
> distinguished from another sentence. Then competence where coherent
> speech is possible. Eventually fluency where each subtle shade of
> difference and meaning is clear. The neophyte can hardly tell black
> tea from green. The novice can discern the difference between the
> categories (black, green, white, oolong, etc). The journeyman, can
> identify regions and styles. The master knows the estate, the season,
> the variance in processing techniques and whatnot.

And then the next, which dispenses with the conceptual and discursive
altogether to come directly in touch with tea itself. A mind cluttered
with all kinds of associated analytical thoughts is wise, but only in a
superficial way.

--crymad

Cameron 11/10/04


> What I meant was a catalogue of memories of tastes and aromas. I used
> the word "tasting vocabulary" as a short form. The more memories of
> distinct tastes you have, the better you can discriminate between
> different teas, and the more significant each experience of tea
> becomes. It is like learning a new language.

That other point of view I mentioned puts "catalogue," "distinct," and
"discriminate" into the "vocabulary" column, as you suggest when you refer
to this as learning a new "language." Tea is beyond language. It is
experience.
>
> At first there is only a torrent of sound, which can barely be
> distinguished from gibberish. Next comes a stage where one knows the
> basic words and where a given sentence has meaning and can be
> distinguished from another sentence. Then competence where coherent
> speech is possible. Eventually fluency where each subtle shade of
> difference and meaning is clear. The neophyte can hardly tell black
> tea from green. The novice can discern the difference between the
> categories (black, green, white, oolong, etc). The journeyman, can
> identify regions and styles. The master knows the estate, the season,
> the variance in processing techniques and whatnot.

All this learning can have deleterious effects. OK, so I'll never journey
toward master status, but I'll muddle through somehow. I can at least sit on
the side of the road and be a friend to man.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> From another viewpoint, judging (experiencing/knowing) the nuances
> of tea requires *no* vocabulary whatsoever; expressing and explaining
these
> nuances to others, and comparing one tea to another requires words.

An excellent point, though controversial in the cognitive psych field.
Benjamin Lee Whorf (not to be confused with Security Chief Worf) asserted
that one can't actually have an experience until there exists a category by
which to understand it. Much of the work has been on color terminology, but
no doubt other sensory attributes have been studied in this way. See also
Prof. Noble's "flavor wheel" learning tool for wine analysis and enjoyment:
http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/Acnoble/waw.html.

-DM

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:

> Benjamin Lee Whorf (not to be confused with Security Chief Worf) asserted
> that one can't actually have an experience until there exists a category by
> which to understand it.

That sounds like strong Sapir-Whorf. Weak is much more
believable. Having the extra `mental vocabulary' enables a person to
better comprehend their experiences, perhaps, but it's not a
prerequisite to actually having the experience.

To put it another way, you're most well equipped to taste tea by
having had a lot of experience tasting tea.

Cheers,

- Joel

Joel Reicher wrote:
> > Benjamin Lee Whorf (not to be confused with Security Chief Worf)
asserted
> > that one can't actually have an experience until there exists a category
by
> > which to understand it.
>
> That sounds like strong Sapir-Whorf. Weak is much more
> believable. Having the extra `mental vocabulary' enables a person to
> better comprehend their experiences, perhaps, but it's not a
> prerequisite to actually having the experience.
>
> To put it another way, you're most well equipped to taste tea by
> having had a lot of experience tasting tea.

I wouldn't suggest otherwise - just pointing out that some people believe in
the "strong" Wghorfian hypothesis, and many more in the weaker version.

My own experience is that experience alone is both necessary and sufficient
for enjoying tea, but not sufficient to develop a useful vocabulary by which
to describe the experience. Further, sharing even clumsy concepts of the
taste/aroma experience and its evocations is a great way to develop
sensitivity to distinctions both subtle and coarse. Many people smell
cyanide and benzaldehyde as "almond" until some differences are pointed out.
Likewise, lots of things are categorized as "yucky" until (1) associated
with positive shared experiences, social cachet, etc.; and (2) clearly
distinguished as to source, context and safety.

-DM

Hi Melinda,
you have luckily hit a fine Formosa Bai Hao Oolong ( or Wulong) .
It's also my favored tea.
Cheers
Karel Valter


On 9 Nov 2004 00:06:23 -0800, (Melinda) wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Well I got a sample of this oolong with an order several weeks ago and
>would like to know if others have tried it. I did do a group search
>and saw some older reviews. I have a storebought Tai Kwan Yin that is
>going south, so getting to try another oolong was good for my
>tastebuds. The leaves in this are different from anything I myself
>have seen before, in the dry form. They're very...angular. I want to
>say very crispy but I don't mean in texture or quality...they have a
>lot of sharp edges, defined edges. The leaves remind me of apple peels
>that have curled up when toasted or baked. Even though I am really a
>relative beginner to the world of tea, and though my tastebuds aren't
>refined much at all, there is one thing I can definitely say about
>this Bai Hao. After I drank it out of what passes as my
>smelling/reserve cup, I put the empty cup down and forgot about it for
>about thirty minutes. When I smelled it (the liquid had dried) I was
>amazed by the sweetness of the scent in the cup. The wet leaves have
>that scent but to me it's way way under woody smells, and the tea
>liquid itself doesn't have that pronounced sweet smell to me. But the
>dried smelling cup....wow! I've never experienced anything like that.
>I mean it was like dried apricot jam or something. So anyway, I
>thought I'd share. I know that my sensitivity to nuances in tea
>tasting aren't where others' are (based on some of the detailed
>descriptions I've read of various teas and then trying to pick out
>those qualities myself) but this was definite enough to even me to be
>worthy of comment.
>
>No affilliation etc.
>
>Melinda