Greetings, all,

I was wondering how long tinned or bagged teas will last once the seals
are broken. I have some old Darjeeling in a large tin that still brews
satisfactorily, even though there's more air in the tin than tea. From
what I've noticed, tea has quite a shelf life.

Carl
/ tooo many 'o's in yahoo ;p

To really address the issue we need to discuss the chemical and physical
changed that tea undergo during storage and how that affects the features of
the brewed tea. Since black, green, wulong and puerh teas are so very
different in both physical and chemical senses and the resulting brew is
enjoyed in different ways, there is no single answer.
Few people realize, though, that teas (especially wulongs) can be
surprisingly strongly envigorated by mild roasting and other heat
threatments.
Many a tea merhant re-roast their teas somethimes more than once.

Sasha.


"carl" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings, all,
>
> I was wondering how long tinned or bagged teas will last once the seals
> are broken. I have some old Darjeeling in a large tin that still brews
> satisfactorily, even though there's more air in the tin than tea. From
> what I've noticed, tea has quite a shelf life.
>
> Carl
> / tooo many 'o's in yahoo ;p

To really address the issue we need to discuss the chemical and physical
changed that tea undergo during storage and how that affects the features of
the brewed tea. Since black, green, wulong and puerh teas are so very
different in both physical and chemical senses and the resulting brew is
enjoyed in different ways, there is no single answer.
Few people realize, though, that teas (especially wulongs) can be
surprisingly strongly envigorated by mild roasting and other heat
threatments.
Many a tea merhant re-roast their teas somethimes more than once.

Sasha.


"carl" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings, all,
>
> I was wondering how long tinned or bagged teas will last once the seals
> are broken. I have some old Darjeeling in a large tin that still brews
> satisfactorily, even though there's more air in the tin than tea. From
> what I've noticed, tea has quite a shelf life.
>
> Carl
> / tooo many 'o's in yahoo ;p

"carl" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings, all,
>
> I was wondering how long tinned or bagged teas will last once the seals
> are broken. I have some old Darjeeling in a large tin that still brews
> satisfactorily, even though there's more air in the tin than tea. From
> what I've noticed, tea has quite a shelf life.

It depends on the conditions both before and after the seals are broken:
light, heat, air, & moisture all contribute to a shorter shelf life.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

/1/05

> Greetings, all,
>
> I was wondering how long tinned or bagged teas will last once the seals
> are broken. I have some old Darjeeling in a large tin that still brews
> satisfactorily, even though there's more air in the tin than tea. From
> what I've noticed, tea has quite a shelf life.
>
> Carl
> / tooo many 'o's in yahoo ;p


I've found the same, but I wonder if it isn't more a reflection on my great
expansive liberalism than on the quality of the tea. Placing a freshly
opened green tea beside the same one opened and exposed to air for months
would tell the tale. Aroma goes first, taste goes slowly after that.
Super-fresh is surely best, especially in the case of greens. In one of our
local Indian shops, I once found Darjeeling wrapped in light paper cubes
dated ten or twelve years prior to my observation. What can I say?

Michael

I don't know the scientific info on it, but I can tell you what the tea
bosses around here say.

Tie Guan Yin, about a year. The freshness is a deciding factor on what
the final price will be at market, and anything over a year is
relatively worthless.

Wulong, strange. There are some types of Wulong that are better if
they have been aged, apparently. Generally, the Taiwan Wulongs will
last for about a year before they are too old.

Green, two years.

Pu'er, the elder the better.

Keep in mind, this is from some bosses who are hardly scientists; some
of who are hardly honest. heh.

Cowboy -

Try to roast older TGY and you will absolutely love it (my experience). I am
yet to decide which method (actual roasting or microwave) is better, but
they both work. It looks like actual roasting works better with green teas.
I am strating to think (you heard it from me first!) that may be it makes
sense to introduce a new procedure into normal brewing of tea -

1. Take out of container
2. Roast in microwave or other heater
3. Do whatever you do normally (wash chahu, wash tea, brew...)

Certainly that step could not be a part of traditional way of handling tea -
there were no microwaves in Kun Zi times and untill very recently there were
no supereasy access to fast and supereasy way of heating things in the
matter of seconds.

Anyway - I am an experimental conservative

Sasha.


"Mydnight" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't know the scientific info on it, but I can tell you what the tea
> bosses around here say.
>
> Tie Guan Yin, about a year. The freshness is a deciding factor on what
> the final price will be at market, and anything over a year is
> relatively worthless.
>
> Wulong, strange. There are some types of Wulong that are better if
> they have been aged, apparently. Generally, the Taiwan Wulongs will
> last for about a year before they are too old.
>
> Green, two years.
>
> Pu'er, the elder the better.
>
> Keep in mind, this is from some bosses who are hardly scientists; some
> of who are hardly honest. heh.
>

I'll give it a go and tell you want I think. The reason I may just
throw it out is because the tea that I had acquired was pretty low
quality anyway; all the more reason to experiement, I guess!

I'll give it a go and tell you want I think. The reason I may just
throw it out is because the tea that I had acquired was pretty low
quality anyway; all the more reason to experiement, I guess!

It was my theory all along that an artist should work with whatever he has.
Everyone who knows what (s)he is doing can brew a wonderful tea from fresh
high grade expensive leaf. And one should try get better material to work
with, no doubt. But making something of great taste and character out of 10
years old Georgian Number 3 shitleaf tea (so "con palo" that its more like
"sans leaf") - brings one a special satisfaction and helps to understand the
boundaries of the art of tea.
It's like doing crosswords, like investigating a murder.
Or may be I am just a pervert...

Sasha.


"Mydnight" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'll give it a go and tell you want I think. The reason I may just
> throw it out is because the tea that I had acquired was pretty low
> quality anyway; all the more reason to experiement, I guess!
>

It was my theory all along that an artist should work with whatever he has.
Everyone who knows what (s)he is doing can brew a wonderful tea from fresh
high grade expensive leaf. And one should try get better material to work
with, no doubt. But making something of great taste and character out of 10
years old Georgian Number 3 shitleaf tea (so "con palo" that its more like
"sans leaf") - brings one a special satisfaction and helps to understand the
boundaries of the art of tea.
It's like doing crosswords, like investigating a murder.
Or may be I am just a pervert...

Sasha.


"Mydnight" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'll give it a go and tell you want I think. The reason I may just
> throw it out is because the tea that I had acquired was pretty low
> quality anyway; all the more reason to experiement, I guess!
>

Tea should be drank fresh. This is true for green, black, oolong and
white teas. The only exception is the Chinese black tea pu erh.
Classical "pu erh" or its subset "tuo cha" is kept for decades (like
fine red wine) in China until its taste is extremely mellow.
Exceptionally fine aged-pu erh is very rare. One of such pu erh tea
brick can cost $300+. You can find out more about tea at "Tea
University" at http://www.brandconcepts.biz/4teauniv_main.php.

Greg

Greg,

I agree about drinking fresh green, oolong, white tea, yellow..But, for
black tea, that is, if you are talking about real black tea, the older
the better for some of them.

If you are referring to red tea in fact, then i would suggest you to
try an aged zheng shan xiao zhong (lapsang souchong) and a fresh one.
The aged one is much better.

They are some green tea that are better aged, such as raw pu erh (which
is more valuable than cooked pu erh) or another green tea that is
unknown to the west called koo loo tea from Guangdong province.

SEb

legroups.
com5/3/05

> Tea should be drank fresh. This is true for green, black, oolong and
> white teas. The only exception is the Chinese black tea pu erh.
> Classical "pu erh" or its subset "tuo cha" is kept for decades (like
> fine red wine) in China until its taste is extremely mellow.
> Exceptionally fine aged-pu erh is very rare. One of such pu erh tea
> brick can cost $300+. You can find out more about tea at "Tea
> University" at http://www.brandconcepts.biz/4teauniv_main.php.
>
> Greg


Hi Greg,

I'd like to add to what you say here and suggest that another exception is
Keemun, which, according to received wisdom as well as my experience,
improves quite nicely with some age on it. You can easily add a zero to your
$300+, by the way. Try to get your hands on an authentic 1950's cake for
under a thousand, and I'll bow to you.

Michael

Dear Greg -

There are very little truths in any statement that do not take into
consideration the variety of tastes and sheer enormity of tea experience.
There is no such thing as "something should be done this way". There is
always fine points, exceptions, new interesting variations. Tea does not
tolerate authoritarian approach.
Good luck with your "Tea University".

Sasha.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tea should be drank fresh. This is true for green, black, oolong and
> white teas. The only exception is the Chinese black tea pu erh.
> Classical "pu erh" or its subset "tuo cha" is kept for decades (like
> fine red wine) in China until its taste is extremely mellow.
> Exceptionally fine aged-pu erh is very rare. One of such pu erh tea
> brick can cost $300+. You can find out more about tea at "Tea
> University" at http://www.brandconcepts.biz/4teauniv_main.php.
>
> Greg
>

Dear Greg -

There are very little truths in any statement that do not take into
consideration the variety of tastes and sheer enormity of tea experience.
There is no such thing as "something should be done this way". There is
always fine points, exceptions, new interesting variations. Tea does not
tolerate authoritarian approach.
Good luck with your "Tea University".

Sasha.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tea should be drank fresh. This is true for green, black, oolong and
> white teas. The only exception is the Chinese black tea pu erh.
> Classical "pu erh" or its subset "tuo cha" is kept for decades (like
> fine red wine) in China until its taste is extremely mellow.
> Exceptionally fine aged-pu erh is very rare. One of such pu erh tea
> brick can cost $300+. You can find out more about tea at "Tea
> University" at http://www.brandconcepts.biz/4teauniv_main.php.
>
> Greg
>

"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
...
> Dear Greg -
>
> There are very little truths in any statement that do not take into
> consideration the variety of tastes and sheer enormity of tea experience.
> There is no such thing as "something should be done this way". There is
> always fine points, exceptions, new interesting variations. Tea does not
> tolerate authoritarian approach.

Well, okay, but I'm still gonna think that brewing tea loose is good and
using a teaball is bad.

Heh .

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dear Greg -
>>
>> There are very little truths in any statement that do not take into
>> consideration the variety of tastes and sheer enormity of tea experience.
>> There is no such thing as "something should be done this way". There is
>> always fine points, exceptions, new interesting variations. Tea does not
>> tolerate authoritarian approach.
>
> Well, okay, but I'm still gonna think that brewing tea loose is good and
> using a teaball is bad.
>
> Heh .
>
> --
> ~~Bluesea~~

Good tea in teaball is better than bad tea brewed loose.

Sasha.

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Cowboy -
>
> Try to roast older TGY and you will absolutely love it (my
> experience). I am yet to decide which method (actual roasting
> or microwave) is better, but they both work. It looks like
> actual roasting works better with green teas. I am strating to
> think (you heard it from me first!) that may be it makes sense
> to introduce a new procedure into normal brewing of tea -
>
> 1. Take out of container 2. Roast in microwave or other heater
> 3. Do whatever you do normally (wash chahu, wash tea, brew...)
>
I too have been experimenting with this procedure on some very
coarse, very cheap, green tea procured from a local Middle East
grocery. It may be of Ceylon origin, but I threw the box away and
so can't confirm at the moment. At any rate, roasting briefly
before brewing transforms this very mundane tea into
something...almost remarkable. They details are still being
ironed out, but when I nail down the technique, I'll report back.

Microwaving I've yet to try. I have no aversion to this
contemporary contraption, but some year ago my trials on
roasting sesame seeds in the microwave failed, and so I'm a bit
doubtful.

--crymad

With all due respect, there is no such thing as raw pu erh. My family
is in the tea plantation business for four generations. I have worked
in our plantation for over 20 years. May be you are refering to green
pu erh. It's colour looks like green tea. But that is the biggest
misconception of tea outside China. Many, many decades ago some
influential tea merchants who did not fully understand tea were telling
people of the world the main difference between green tea, oolong tea,
black tea, and white tea. Now every book, and every website uses the
same definition--the major difference is in the fermentation of the tea
leaves. However, this definition is extremely over simplified,
misleading and mostly incorrect. The major difference between the
different teas are that they all comes from different tea plants. Teas
like apples, peaches and pears have many, many different varities. Some
varities are perfect for green teas, while others are great for white
teas, and still others are ideal for red teas (mostly refer to as black
teas in the West). This white tea varities will never be used to make
green teas and vice versa. Even in the green tea family there are
countless sub-varities. This is only true in China, and Taiwan. India
is now growing green tea, and white tea, but their altered varities
work differently, and can never be as superior as the thousands of
green teas in China.

For people who are truely interested in the finest teas in the world,
they should visit China many famous tea garden (plantations) the next
time they are in the country. Most plantations welcome foreigners for
visits.

I do agree that zheng shan xiao zhong (lapsang souchong) is a good tea
if people could find it at a fine tea merchant--it is not an easy tea
to locate in North America. And the Koo Loo tea is very nice. It has a
floral aroma. But again this tea is not catagorized as green. In its
purest classification, this is a fully-fermented red tea; however, in
the West, red tea is consider black tea. In North America, for the
sake of simplication, yellow teas, and red teas do not exist at the
current time.

In most case, you seem very knowledgeable about tea. It took me many
decades to truely understand the nuances, and I was literally borned in
a tea plantation in Fujian.

Greg

Are you crazy. Why would anyone wants to pay so much. My family has
operated a leading tea plantation in China for many generations, and
yes Keemun is an excellent tea by itself or mix with Ceylon and other
Indian teas to make the famous "English Breakfast Tea". Keemun is
rarely found in cake forms. Tea is such an individual think, if you
like it aged, go for it., but I would not pay anything over $100.
Actually I do have a number of authentic keemun tea dating back to the
1940s, 50s, and 60s. It is something that we put on display. I never
had any plans of consuming it because I don't think it would taste any
good.

Are you crazy. Why would anyone wants to pay so much. My family has
operated a leading tea plantation in China for many generations, and
yes Keemun is an excellent tea by itself or mix with Ceylon and other
Indian teas to make the famous "English Breakfast Tea". Keemun is
rarely found in cake forms. Tea is such an individual think, if you
like it aged, go for it., but I would not pay anything over $100.
Actually I do have a number of authentic keemun tea dating back to the
1940s, 50s, and 60s. It is something that we put on display. I never
had any plans of consuming it because I don't think it would taste any
good.

Greg

Well taken. Tea is a very individual experience. "Tea University" is
not my thing. I just came across it while I'm studying commerce at
UCLA. Just thought it was an informative site.

Greg

Greg,

I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no such thing as 'raw' pu erh," but
I suggest you visit Mike Petro's web site to clear up whatever
misconceptions you have about our use of the term.

Michael




legroups.
com5/4/05
> With all due respect, there is no such thing as raw pu erh. My family
> is in the tea plantation business for four generations. I have worked
> in our plantation for over 20 years. May be you are refering to green
> pu erh. It's colour looks like green tea. But that is the biggest
> misconception of tea outside China. Many, many decades ago some
> influential tea merchants who did not fully understand tea were telling
> people of the world the main difference between green tea, oolong tea,
> black tea, and white tea. Now every book, and every website uses the
> same definition--the major difference is in the fermentation of the tea
> leaves. However, this definition is extremely over simplified,
> misleading and mostly incorrect. The major difference between the
> different teas are that they all comes from different tea plants. Teas
> like apples, peaches and pears have many, many different varities. Some
> varities are perfect for green teas, while others are great for white
> teas, and still others are ideal for red teas (mostly refer to as black
> teas in the West). This white tea varities will never be used to make
> green teas and vice versa. Even in the green tea family there are
> countless sub-varities. This is only true in China, and Taiwan. India
> is now growing green tea, and white tea, but their altered varities
> work differently, and can never be as superior as the thousands of
> green teas in China.
>
> For people who are truely interested in the finest teas in the world,
> they should visit China many famous tea garden (plantations) the next
> time they are in the country. Most plantations welcome foreigners for
> visits.
>
> I do agree that zheng shan xiao zhong (lapsang souchong) is a good tea
> if people could find it at a fine tea merchant--it is not an easy tea
> to locate in North America. And the Koo Loo tea is very nice. It has a
> floral aroma. But again this tea is not catagorized as green. In its
> purest classification, this is a fully-fermented red tea; however, in
> the West, red tea is consider black tea. In North America, for the
> sake of simplication, yellow teas, and red teas do not exist at the
> current time.
>
> In most case, you seem very knowledgeable about tea. It took me many
> decades to truely understand the nuances, and I was literally borned in
> a tea plantation in Fujian.
>
> Greg
>

legroups.
com5/4/05

> Are you crazy.

Perhaps. But, it has little or nothing to do with tea.

> Why would anyone wants to pay so much. My family has
> operated a leading tea plantation in China for many generations, and
> yes Keemun is an excellent tea by itself or mix with Ceylon and other
> Indian teas to make the famous "English Breakfast Tea". Keemun is
> rarely found in cake forms. Tea is such an individual think, if you
> like it aged, go for it., but I would not pay anything over $100.
> Actually I do have a number of authentic keemun tea dating back to the
> 1940s, 50s, and 60s. It is something that we put on display. I never
> had any plans of consuming it because I don't think it would taste any
> good.

When I spoke of aged Keemun, I was thinking of a year or so, not decades.
Sorry I confused you. I'd imagine a 1940's Keemun would be dead. How about
some nice 1940's or 1950's green Pu'erh cakes? Also, as you say, I never had
to pay great prices for great Keemun.

By the way, when you post a response, please leave some of the original post
for context. That will make it easier for us to know what your refer to.

Michael

wrote:
> With all due respect, there is no such thing as raw pu erh. My family
> is in the tea plantation business for four generations. I have worked
> in our plantation for over 20 years. May be you are refering to green
> pu erh. It's colour looks like green tea. But that is the biggest
> misconception of tea outside China.

Greg,

With all due respect I think you are getting tangled up in language
translation issues. Over the years as different people have done
business with the USA the translations have varied a bit. Be it right,
wrong, or indifferent there are a variety of descriptive terms
currently in widespread use in the USA market for the 2 catagories of
Pu'er. They a

Green - Black
Sheng - Shu
Raw - Ripe
Uncooked - Cooked

I have a friend who is a leading Tea broker in Kunming. He is employed
by the company that owns the (Yunnang) Tea Market in Kunming as well as
several of the booths inside of the Tea Market. He literally brokers
tons of Pu-er every month. I can show you many conversations where he
uses the terms raw/ripe to describe sheng/shu pu'er. It is all in how
it is translated into English.

Along the same lines you will see different translations for the word
Pu'er itself, including puer, puerh, pu-erh, etc.

What is the name of your Family Business? What types of tea do you
grow/process?

If you are so experienced I am surprised that you would recommend a
company (Fah Guo Mountain Tea) who sells expensive Pu'er without even
stating the vintage or the factory or even the type of pu'er that it
is. I know that this is NOT the way business is done in China. Are you
associated with that company somehow?

Regarding the newsgroups, proper newsgroup etiquette (netiquette)
dictates that you quote the original post you are responding to, or at
least closely follow the thread lines. It makes it much easier to
understand which conversation (thread) you are commenting on. See
http://www.newsreaders.com/guide/netiquette.html for more info on
netiquette.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Dear Greg -

It would be real nice if you read the posts of others with proper attention
and respect. Michael Plant, who I have an honor to know personally is a
very knowledgable and nice gentleman, most probably old enough to be your
father. In his post he was talking about paying in extent of $1,000 for puer
CAKE, not Keemun. But even if he meant Keemun, it does not warrant your rude
"You are crazy" remark. I think you owe him an apology.
We always hear that argument from our Chinese friends about them or their
parents being tea merchants or tea growers. Same way we were always hearing
from our Iranian friends that they are Shah's Pehlevi relatives. That may be
so, but we would prefer arguments that can be substantiated in some
verifiable way. You also should get yourself familiar with tea terminology
commonly accepted in the English-speaking world before you make statements
that there is no such thing as "raw pu-erh", because this is how Sheng
(ShengRi de Sheng) is translated into English, together with "live,
uncooked, green", as opposed to Shu (ChengShu de Shu) "ripe, cooked, done".
Many participants on this forum (present party excluded) have live-long
connections with tea businesses in China, many have friends who own and run
teahouses in HongKong, Taiwan and here in Chinatowns on both coasts. Some of
us studied China and its languages and cultures, including tea, for many,
many years. Please, do not call us "crazy".
The "Tea University" is very much an "introduction" site. In case of pu-erh
I very much recommend you to take a look at Mike Petro site
http://www.pu-erh.net - not everything is on the surface and you have to dig
around there, but its well worth it.

Sasha.



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Are you crazy. Why would anyone wants to pay so much. My family has
> operated a leading tea plantation in China for many generations, and
> yes Keemun is an excellent tea by itself or mix with Ceylon and other
> Indian teas to make the famous "English Breakfast Tea". Keemun is
> rarely found in cake forms. Tea is such an individual think, if you
> like it aged, go for it., but I would not pay anything over $100.
> Actually I do have a number of authentic keemun tea dating back to the
> 1940s, 50s, and 60s. It is something that we put on display. I never
> had any plans of consuming it because I don't think it would taste any
> good.
>
> Greg
>

Sheng1 in Chinese means raw or uncooked. The leaves are not cooked and
it's basically like a green tea. As it ages, it becomes more smooth
and not as sharp.

I am in China. I have visited the tea plantations. It is raw/uncooked.

Please provide me the factory name and the plantation name; I'll visit
on my next holiday.

On Tue, 03 May 2005 21:58:52 GMT, Alex Chaihorsky wrote:

> Good tea in teaball is better than bad tea brewed loose.

Amen! And I seriously doubt that I'm the only one here who sings in that
choir.

--
Derek

It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one
has any idea where they're going.

Greg,

Do not start with "all due respect" because it usually mean you do not
respect the person you are replying to, take it from Donald, he
knows...

We are in China and I have been learning pu erh for more than a year
now from people including:

* Master Leung (creator of the recipe of the guang yun gong bing in the
60's and engineer for the China tea export and import company,
Guangdong)
* Master Chen, who is my teacher, whose familly was the first
generation pu erh seller in guandgong and opened their first business
in 1881 and who was a tea buyer for the CNNP, Guangdong for more than
40 years. He has been dealing and knows all kinds of traditional famous
tea everywhere (tea producing areas) in China.
* Professor Liu - Professor Managing Director for the Research Institue
of tea Science and this person's specialty is "pu erh" and is part of
the writers of the modern Cha Jing.

Because of these people we also have the extreme pleasure to meet a lot
of pu erh collectors and we even have the chance to be able to ask our
questions. So, with all due respect, I think they are right when they
all say that raw puerh is green.

The material use for pu erh is Shai Qing, which is one kind of the
green teas, even after beeing compressed the tea is still green tea. If
you take the "zhang ping shui xian bing" (Michael, you tried that
peculiar compressed oolong), it is a compressed oolong from Fujian,
made with leaves that are from Shui Xian race. Once the leaves are
processed, they are compressed, are they still oonlong tea after? Well,
yes, they are just compressed oolong.


[Greg]
> And the Koo Loo tea is very nice. It has a floral aroma. But again
this >tea is not catagorized as green. In its purest classification,
this is >a fully-fermented red tea;

[Seb]
Let me enlight you about the Koo Loo tea as we have 3 kg of it that we
have made specially for us at the original producing village by a tea
farmer whose familly has been producing this tea for a very long time.
It is one of the rare green teas that you can age and when aged the
liquor do turn red hence maybe you confusion between red and green.

However, I don't know if you have confused it with some other teas, I
am talking about the one from Li Shui village, Gu Lao county,
Guangdong. Take you Cha Jing, page 169 and you will learn about this
tea.

[Greg]
> In most case, you seem very knowledgeable about tea. It took me many
> decades to truely understand the nuances, and I was literally borned
in
> a tea plantation in Fujian.

[Seb]
I like Fujian, I was there last year for autumn harvest at a tea
farmer's plantation in Anxi, and what i found was that Fujian tea
farmers do not really like pu erh tea as they think it is dirty. they
stick to their lovely oolongs...
I have also been to Fuding and Zhenghe, love the white teas too.

SEb