My apologies... this went a little over the limit so its done it two posts.

Hello folks,
I had no idea my post would generate this much response so I will try to answer it all here. First of all there is one glaring error (my fault) I will address up front. I enjoyed Sashas' comment espeacially. The word that goes in there is "recieve". Also, my wife, XiaoLing, wants to know how you know that Sasha? I say that because the basic chemical elements undergo specific changes and behave in specific ways with the proper heating, reheating, etcetera. For instance, 90% of caffiene is effectively washed out in the first 30 seconds of brewing. That means that a particularly strong fermented and unfermented blend of loose leaf puer I found recently is effectively decaffinated because it needs 3 washings before you pao your first pot for drinking. The good part is that we get up to 20 pao out of it before we call it quits. There are many other such changes that affect when and how many benefits are most potent to virtually non-existant. Its too much to go into here, but let me just say that the repeated heating and proper handling of your brew (GonFuCha) is the best way to obtain maximum benefit. This has evolved over a very long period of time and the Chinese have got it down to an art and a science.

There also appears to some concern about my veracity regarding prices. This is a tough one to answer. The problem is that you are all right, but there are other consideration in each case. This is what I was talking about concerning misinformation. Many people have a great deal of very good information about tea and teapots and generally good paradigms but are missing some critical perspectives (and often have limited info in certain areas). This creates blind spots that are difficult to overcome and cause controversy among people who are generally right in there reasons for an opinion. I think the best way to answer this is to explain a little of what I do here and how it works. The problem here, I think, is not about people having bad info, but about perspectives created by incomplete views. A situation that is sadly almost unavoidable for most tea drinkers (particluarly novices) in the states.

Though tea is not my only business, tea and teaware is a major elemet in both my business and daily life. I live in Zhuhai just south of Macao. I am married to a beautiful Cantonese lady who helps me with business and have been embraced by her family, friends, and the business community. I think that in the process of explaining how my "typical" day goes you might better understand why my views are as they are.

Typically, when not working, I drink between 20 and 50 cups of tea a day depending on how much I socialise. This number often exceeds 100 when i'm working and buying tea. This is not considered excessive here. My personal favorites are puer, followed by oolong, and then good hard rolled ginseng. I buy and know good greens, reds, whites. The rest I simply don't deal with because of time and other restraints regarding my business.

I own pots for each of these but don't typically carry them with me when buying. The reason for this is the way buying is done in China and serious sellers know me and give me samples to try at home. If the seller can't pao the tea in a teapot set aside for what he is selling I simply won't buy. The comment about collectors and buyers in China not being willing to buy sight unseen (and tasted) is absolutely true. The comment about Chinese being in universal agreement about puer investment is also absolutely true and spreading globally. Good aged puer is getting harder to find all the time. Rip offs are getting more common every day as the "sell before market" bosses fight for the market. This is why serious buyers of quality puer don't buy from taobao or ebay. Its just guessing.

I am originally a midwest farmboy. I did business overseas for 20 years before settling in China. One aspect of my business is negotiating joint ventures between Chinese and American firms so I still have with and a good grasp of American business and trends. I pay for statistical services and other things that help me keep abreast of many things in both China and the states. These things are helpful but they do not replace something that is vital regarding the tea and teaware industry. That is the personal on the site relationship with the industry. Let me tell you a true story. You have in most likelihood never read something like this before. I don't know of its existance at any rate. I will tell you about an actual buying/selling session with a Chinese tea boss. I think that will be more informative than reciting statistics and prices.

My wife and I simply walk into the front shop and are greeted. He knows us. I am the only zhong guo guilo (Chinese Guilo) in Zhuhai in the tea business. There are a couple more in GuangDong province and maybe a dozen more spread across China. He knows that Zi Yau Ren You Xian Gung Si (Freeman Ltd.) is a family business that has many family (some related to him) in the business. I have face with this man and it would cost him face to treat me poorly. He invites me to sit at his tea table and starts looking over his pots.

While he looks over his pots we engage in small talk. Like the weather. This will be important later and I would lose face if I didn't pay attention. All of his pots are perfect or near perfect and he knows that I know it. I look over and smell any "new" pots. An bad pot can be used to cheat you. He gains face.

He pulls over a bag of loose leaf puer blend. Its a blend of fermented and unfermented. I know this but say nothing. I gain face and give him face. He sets a pot out front. I smell it and look it over. Then I reach into the bag and mix the top layer before taking a handfull to smell. He asks me if I want to try it. This is my opportunity to let him give me the sales pitch I know he has been setting me up for so I say simply ask what it is.

He has already told me the weather in Yunannan was rainy a while back and caused the plum trees to blossom late. This is important because the leaves for this blend were picked before the blossoms. Plums are common in China and particularly Yunnan where you often get a slight "plum" taste in the puer. This puer is being presented as having little or none of that problem. On the other hand they had some "lemon" puer on hand among the local bosses. By itself not really good puer. They decided to make a blend. This is it. Both of these puer were exceptionally strong and the lemon needs to be well washed. What I have here is a potentially good blend that needs 3 washings but should yield many good pao. It probably doesn't sit well with a Chinese taste in puer. They are trying to see if Americans would like it. I ask him how many pao will it make. He says up to 20 counting the washings.

We pao around six times not counting the washings and discuss its problems and assets. The Chinese don't have a taste for sweets like westerners so their idea of a good plum is almost sour to Americans. The plum taste in this puer is slight enough to be non existant in this blend, but the "lemon" is strong enough (though very mild) to be confused with bitterness past 10 pao or so if you don't understand "bitterness" from the Chinese view.

I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

See my next post for the rest.

Part 2... sorry its so long.... very rainy day here with extra time on my hands.


I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

He brings me 3 cakes and two boxes of bricks to look at (this fellow is exclusively puer). He asks me if i've heard about the fake puer from India that has been circulating lately. I let him know I have and look at one box that matches the description of the fakes. I gain face. He smiles. This is not the fake and he invites me to look it over.

I set a couple of the bricks up by the cakes and get out my puer pick. Two cakes have already been cut (a puer pick is used). I can see that the cut ones are good deep inside. I use my pic to cut the third and a brick. I would be considered stupid not to cut it and we would both lose face. Its a good cake (at least its not old puer pressed over new puer). The cakes are one to five years old he says, and the bricks are green. I ask him about prices.

We discuss the factories, farms, the GuangZhou sell before market bosses, and the weather again. During this I let him know my main interest today is green bricks. He is very proud of a five year old small leaf crab he has on the table and asks me to try it first. I know he doesn't really want to sell this right now and is "showing off" so I say sure. Its part of his investment stash and we both know it. We pao about 10 times and he is right. It is very good. The price is high, as I thought it would be, and would be considered too pricy at the price I would have to charge to do well with it. I tell him I wish I could afford it today but I have only brought enough to buy bricks (cash is king here). So we do about 7 or 8 pao of the brick. I ask about only the price of the bricks now.

These bricks still taste green, of course, but have everything else it takes to be a great puer in a year or two. I buy and drink a lot of puer. The price on these is depressed because of the fakes and time of year. We settle on a price of 70RMB (5 bricks = 1360g/box @ around $8.50 US). I tell him how many boxes I want and while he gets my order ready we chat and invite each other to the next get together (could be at anyones house or shop) to show off our new teas, pots, and fill the air with whatever business or family news is hot while our wives cook some (really) good food.

During this process there is ample opportunity to feel, smell, crumble, bend, spindle, fold, and mutilate tea until you are satisfied. Wet or dry. This process is repeated 5-10 times in a day with the only change being the tea you are buying and its requirements and proper examination. We take a break for high tea to relax with ourselves or friends. Eventually we make our way home to relax, entertain, or work (it never ends). This is not every day but regardless of what kind of business or pleasure is going on you can be assured tea is involved.

I hope this little story helps you to understand why I view and buy tea differently and that I have good reasons. I think it is impossible to get this kind of buying/selling experience outside of China. The capacity to have confidence in your purchase, its quality, its value, and keep a finger on the pulse of the tea market is unmatched. Much of that fake Indian puer is already in the states for instance. I now have more green bricks for my clients of high quality ($5 US and shipping... the five bucks is a handling charge and you don't pay that with a purchase). I think the only way I could be more honest and straightforward about this is if I were a better writer.

By the way, if you have ever seen a description of an actual tea sale anywhere let me know. I don't think there are many people in America or China in the tea business who want you to know.

Best regards.... Dan

Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
description was quite excellent, please post more like this!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike -

Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
neither Dan nor Renny.

Sasha.


"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>

Hi Alex,

His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.

I will forward the post to you vis email.

Mike







Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Mike -
>
> Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
> neither Dan nor Renny.
>
> Sasha.
>
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> > accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> > other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> > conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> > even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> > and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> > sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> > learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> > description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
> >
> > Mike
> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> >

Thanks a zil.

Sasha.

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Alex,
>
> His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.
>
> I will forward the post to you vis email.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
>> Mike -
>>
>> Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot
>> see
>> neither Dan nor Renny.
>>
>> Sasha.
>>
>>
>> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
>> > accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
>> > other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
>> > conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
>> > even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
>> > and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
>> > sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
>> > learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
>> > description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > http://www.pu-erh.net
>> >
>