Hi,

I've been haunting this group for a little while now. So I've decided
to ask a question and introduce myself. I've recently gotten into tea a
couple of months ago and as of now I have two yixing tea pots. One
little 6oz pot that I use for wulong and a 10oz pot I use for Chinese
red teas, lapsang souchong, European blends and other dark teas. It's
kinda my catch-all pot. I recently got a sample of puerh and I think
they should have their own pot. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
what size pot I should use and where I could find a good one?

Robert

Anything touched by Lapsang Souchong is forever Lapsang Souchong.

Sasha.

"Robert Gill" > wrote in message
tte.lan...
> Hi,
>
> I've been haunting this group for a little while now. So I've decided
> to ask a question and introduce myself. I've recently gotten into tea a
> couple of months ago and as of now I have two yixing tea pots. One
> little 6oz pot that I use for wulong and a 10oz pot I use for Chinese
> red teas, lapsang souchong, European blends and other dark teas. It's
> kinda my catch-all pot. I recently got a sample of puerh and I think
> they should have their own pot. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
> what size pot I should use and where I could find a good one?
>
> Robert

Alex igy.com6/20/05


> Anything touched by Lapsang Souchong is forever Lapsang Souchong.
>
> Sasha.


Hear Here!!!

Hello Gill,
I have been watching this and other newsletters for some time, but have been too busy to be active, so this is a bit of an introduction for me as well. I am an American businessman who lives in China, my wife and family here are Cantonese, and I make my living selling tea, teaware, art, and other things of Chinese origin. I have recently begun putting together a web site to expand my company into the states. Nuff said on that end.

In response to your query I have a few things to say and can probably help you out. First of all, there is a substantial amount of good information on tea, teapots, etcetera in the states but... the amount of misinformation, myth, and fallacy circulating is also epidemic. I can tell by your post that you are a beginner so bear with me a moment while I comment on your dilema. It is not uncommon. There are many things about tea and teapots that are almost impossible to learn outside of China. In all likelihood you are using poor teapots and tea. Don't feel bad. Most people cannot tell a good tea from a bad one and the same goes for teapots. Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing destroys these things or never makes them available even when you start with a good tea). There are far too many things to say about this for a post like this. More later if you wish.

One of the things I will be offering on the website is a series of e-books that explain good tea, teapots, and GonFuCha in detail and how an American (or anyone else) can get the highest quality and not get ripped off. I will also have a selection of 100 teapots I give away for only a five dollar handling charge and shipping. These teapots currently sell for 50-100 dollars US on line (cheaper teapots are an almost guaranteed rip off). I do this to make a point. Most people are getting ripped off. I will also be giving away cakes of good investment Puer on the same basis. Same point. The books will come out over the next several months as I complete the surveys, finish the site, and make sure the business is ready for the market.

Now to how I may be able to help you out. I have a small collection of teapots (not my personal collection) I have used to create the visual portion of the e-book for how to know the "perfect teapot". I collect and sell teapots, so I often have a good seasoned teapot for sale. More to the point, one of the teapots I used for the e-book is an exceptional teapot I currently use for my own Puer (my personal favorite tea). This teapot is one of four matching teapots I used for comparison purposes. As a matter of fact XiaoLing (my wife) is using it to pao Puer for me while I write this. It is a traditional eight jewel yixing four cup done by the ChaoZhou artist Chang Tai Yuan. It is almost perfect (98%). The other three are copies of his work that are exceptional, but seriously fail at least one test for a perfect pot. There is a twelve animal, dragon/phoenix, and four season in the less than perfect pot group. The less than perfect group are also four cup pots and their flaws will have little effect on brewing tea. The flaws are in such things as the handwork of the art, though they do have very minor brewing flaws (they are still far superior to what most Americans pao tea in). Most people couldn't tell any quality difference between them and the perfect pot. As I said, the eight jewel is Puer seasoned, but the only other one that is seasoned is the dragon/phoenix (Tie Guan Yin). My wifes' favorite tea.

I intend to value pots significantly different to what most are used to seeing in the states. I will give you the benefit of that, but don't be surprised that these are not "cheap" teapots. Teapots like the almost perfect eight jewel sell in the states for 500-1k US. Mine is priced at $250 US plus shipping and insurance (I strongly suggest that you insure it). The not perfect (but very high quality copies) would normally be presented as being the same as the eight jewel in the states, but priced as bargains for between 300-1k US (sucks but true). I value mine at 50-100 dollars US plus shipping and insurance depending on the quality of the pot. I only sell high quality pots. I give the other stuff away(you only get really good tea from them by accident anyway). If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

I know some people may scream when they see these prices, but it is true that truly high quality teapots rarely leave China and when they do its often an accident. Even the worst potters and factories (most yixing teapots sold in the states are factory regardless of what anyone says) accidentally produce a good teapot from time to time. Some factories manage to produce teapots that are reasonably consistant in their brewing capacities. It is impossible to completely test a teapot for full quality, however, in a factory and I know of none who test at all. Only hand made teapots by competent artists are consistantly high quality. You will pay for that anywhere in the world.

By the way. Factory teapots are all industrial grade clay (thats right, there is more than one grade of yixing clay and many varieties of both grades) which means the brewing quality of the pots made from it are substandard before it even becomes a pot.

I hope I have not discouraged you too much. Drinking good tea is a great pleasure in life that can bring you a great deal of contentment. If you become educated you can even make a good living anywhere people drink tea (the only thing in the world people drink more than tea is water). The reason I am getting into the American market is to help people do just that. Be educated and content in a profitable (in many ways) pursuit of good tea. Let me know if you are interested in the pots or just have some questions. I intend to be consistantly active here. And good luck with your search. I hope you learn to enjoy and appreciate "good" tea as much as I have.

Renny wrote:
>If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.

Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
please?

Sincerely,
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"This Web Site chronicles a Westerner's quest to discover, and publish,
the truth about Puerh. I attempt to dispel the myths, and educate the
English speaking public, about this wonderful and mysterious variety of
tea."

TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
buck.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Renny wrote:
> >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
>
> Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
>
> Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> please?
>
> Sincerely,
> Mike Petro

Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
$50 you better look elsewhere!

In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
factors:

1) The factories reputation
2) The production recipe used
3) How well the cake was stored
4) The quality of production that year
5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
8) What the market will bear......


I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net


Space Cowboy wrote:
> TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
> year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
> expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
> you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
> still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
> buck.
>
> Jim
>
> Mike Petro wrote:
> > Renny wrote:
> > >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
> >
> > Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> > that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> > are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> > vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> > people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> > Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
> >
> > Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> > what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> > please?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Mike Petro

TaoBao is a market place where you can check prices in the current
Chinese economy. I've been doing that since I found it. All I'm
saying you can find plenty of 10 year pu for $30. Most 2004 300g beeng
I've seen is just $10. You can find prices more expensive than you
quote but nothing more than limited availability. If I'm in China and
show the appreciation you mention then I'm done sitting in front of the
penny stock exhange investing in my retirement because the government
won't take care of me anymore. I think to pretend that there is any
real market for aged pu is misinformation. The high pricing is based
on limited collectors and not demand. I haven't seen any of the big
ticket items on TaoBao sell. You know pu produced before the modern
production process in the early seventies is the demand and not the
age. I've come across Chinese webpages translated by Google and it
seems the accounts of prices at auction are inflated ie it's like
Christie's the minimum bid isn't met. I do my own collecting of
several genre and the real collector doesn't pay the asking price and
doesn't resell. In other words there is little profit in collecting.
I expect to get my money back with a small profit but the possession is
more important than the profit. From what I've seen Pu investment is
the Chinese version of the Beanie Baby. I think the new wealth of
China is investing in nostalgia with something different tomorrow.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
> a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
> have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
> 1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
> auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
> NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
> $50 you better look elsewhere!
>
> In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
> factors:
>
> 1) The factories reputation
> 2) The production recipe used
> 3) How well the cake was stored
> 4) The quality of production that year
> 5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
> 6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
> 7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
> 8) What the market will bear......
>
>
> I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
> from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
> anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
> value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
> over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
> become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
> > year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
> > expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
> > you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
> > still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
> > buck.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Mike Petro wrote:
> > > Renny wrote:
> > > >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > > > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > > > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > > > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > > > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
> > >
> > > Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> > > that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> > > are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> > > vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> > > people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> > > Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
> > >
> > > Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> > > what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> > > please?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Mike Petro

Mike 6/20/05


> Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
> a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
> have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
> 1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
> auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
> NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
> $50 you better look elsewhere!

On the other hand, Mike, if somebody offers Jim a 1960's cake for $50, it is
either a ruined 1960's cake -- which is quite possible, albeit improbable --
or something else entirely. If that something else entirely tastes damned
good and causes Jim to wonder for a moment whether it is indeed a 1960's
cake, then it's worth the 50 bucks, and all the more power to Jim and the
thief. (Does that make *any* sense at all?)
>
> In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
> factors:
>
> 1) The factories reputation
> 2) The production recipe used
> 3) How well the cake was stored
> 4) The quality of production that year
> 5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
> 6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
> 7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
> 8) What the market will bear......

It would be fascinating to perform a *weighted* average calculation
on your list. I'd place 50% of the weight on eight.
>
>
> I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
> from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
> anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
> value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
> over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
> become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.

Get yours NOW.

Michael

Renny > writes:

> [...]
>
> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
> actually

(Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)

> all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
> destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
> start with a good tea).

I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
it true. Any suggestions?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 20 Jun 2005 12:11:07 -0400
Lewis Perin > wrote:

> Renny > writes:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
> > actually
>
> (Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)
>
> > all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
> > destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
> > start with a good tea).
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
> it true. Any suggestions?


I think the only failsafe method of getting all the health benefits from
your pu-erh or any other tea is to pulverize it into a fine powder and
snort it up your nose.

Eric Jorgensen20050620101530.12323f78@wafer6/20/05

> On 20 Jun 2005 12:11:07 -0400
> Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
>> Renny > writes:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>>> actually
>>
>> (Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)
>>
>>> all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
>>> destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
>>> start with a good tea).
>>
>> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
>> it true. Any suggestions?
>
>
> I think the only failsafe method of getting all the health benefits from
> your pu-erh or any other tea is to pulverize it into a fine powder and
> snort it up your nose.

You could also form it into a fine crystal under fire. Science ever
advances.

"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> Renny > writes:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>> actually
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
> it true. Any suggestions?
>
> /Lew

My suggestion :
"Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually"
reliably seduce women for less than $5.00 with unparalleled success
statistics.

Sasha.

Alex .com6/20/05


> "Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
> news
>> Renny > writes:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>>> actually
>>
>> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
>> it true. Any suggestions?
>>
>> /Lew
>
> My suggestion :
> "Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually"
> reliably seduce women for less than $5.00 with unparalleled success
> statistics.

Well, Sasha, now that you let the cat out of the bag -- so to speak -- I'll
just pack up my marbles and go home.

Michael

Yeah Michael, if Sasha were ever (as I know he wouldn't, this is teasing) to
show up at my door with a gung fu pot and some Bai Hao...I'd know ALL about
what he was up to. Yep. Can't fool me now.

Melinda

--
"I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows,
and Henry knows we know it."

We're a knowledgeable family." ::smiles:: -Geoffrey, Lion in Winter
"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> Alex .com6/20/05
>
>
>> "Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
>> news
>>> Renny > writes:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>>>> actually
>>>
>>> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
>>> it true. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> /Lew
>>
>> My suggestion :
>> "Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>> actually"
>> reliably seduce women for less than $5.00 with unparalleled success
>> statistics.
>
> Well, Sasha, now that you let the cat out of the bag -- so to speak --
> I'll
> just pack up my marbles and go home.
>
> Michael
>

[Renny]
Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
actually all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most
brewing destroys these things or never makes them available even when
you start with a good tea).

[Seb]
Could you tell please where you had the information that gong fu tea is
the only way to benefit the health value of tea. I only brew gong fu
tea so i am very interested in this information.

[Renny]
If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality "green"
Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that if
properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current American
market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it that
long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

[Seb]
By meng Hai pu erh do you mean a pu erh from one of the meng hai area
factories or a "meng hai tea factory pu erh"? There is absolutely no
way that a green pu erh, 5 years old would be between 200 and 400 usd.
Even a Meng Hai tea Factory pu erh.


[Renny]
By the way. Factory teapots are all industrial grade clay (thats
right, there is more than one grade of yixing clay and many varieties
of both grades)

[Seb]
This is interesting to me because our friend from Yixing who is a
accredited master potter said he would find a hard time to explain us
the different grade of clay. If you know how to set the grade per types
of clay, could you let us know about them? I think everybody will like
to read about that here. The only thing that i understood about clay
grading so far, is that, you do need to bite it LOL

My understanding is that smaller tea pots are considered superior. Why
this is I don't know. Perhaps because the greater ratio of surface area
to volume assures greater absorbtion of flavours in the clay. Who
knows.

My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
(see other postings for seasing tips!).

Best Regards,
Nico

Just got in from work and saw your post Nico. You are right about smaller teapots being preferable, but I have to disagree on the pot purchase idea. Espeacially if Robert wants to brew good quality puer.

Small teapots are preferable for brewing properly. Any yixing clay will absorb flavor and a seperate teapot for each type you drink is a good idea. The reason small teapots are preferable is all brewing related. Yixing clay has specific heat retention qualities and the pots were designed to maximize this benefit in GonFuCha. Good ones are not glazed because it ruins these qualities. The best ones are two to six cup pots that are thin walled. They need to be thin walled so there is not enough clay to cause thermal lag to also ruin the heat retention (and therefore brewing) quality of the pot. Good quality clay in a good pot will have a good high "ring" when you tap the lid on the handle. It needs to be small because if you pao your tea correctly you can only serve so many people before your time consumption in serving affects the tea adversely.

Someone who can pao tea well and has a good pot will get consistant brewing results with better tea and use less tea to get more quality paos. A cheap pot is not a bargain as it uses more tea for fewer paos and gives inconsistant brewing which makes it impossible to consistantly brew tea to its average (let alone fullest) potential. It is also hard to learn how to pao tea well (or appreciate the brew) without a good pot. You will miss some very good teas as well if they are incorrectly brewed and you can do nothing about it because of your pot.

There is a lot more to it, though it is not complicated. Its just not commonly known in the states. Basically, what i'm saying is that for a serious tea drinker investing in a good pot and learning to pao with it is almost essential and nothing compared to what they will spend in the years ahead on guessing about tea.

I hope my comments are helpful. I'm not trying to sell upscale teapots for a fast buck. The set you are talking about is probably like many sets you can buy in any supermarket in Zhuhai where I live. Mostly new couples or young people buy them when they can't afford anything else. They are factory made, industrial quality yixing, cost about 25 RMB ($3 US), and are discarded as soon as they can afford better. I'm not trying to be insulting. Just the opposite. Most Americans simply don't know. I'm just trying to help. I have many Chinese relatives (some of whom have asian markets in the states) and those folks are not trying to rip you off either. They simply sell what people ask for and no one knows how to ask for a good pot.

Sincerely, Dan

> wrote:
>knows.
>
>My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
>experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
>upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
>usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
>more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
>for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
>(see other postings for seasing tips!).

You should be aware that what you have is _probably_ not a real yixing pot.
Most of the inexpensive pots out there are not.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I can get a red clay gongfu set teapot,gaiwan,cups,boat with tray for
$10. I've seen the cheap yixing sets with four cups, 100ml pot and
bamboo style serving tray for $30. It's not the desired zisha. You
can buy cheap yixing clay made from factory molds. My local art museum
still carries certified yixing pots in the $30-$100 range. You pay
more for the potter's mark than the clay.

Jim

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >knows.
> >
> >My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
> >experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
> >upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
> >usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
> >more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
> >for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
> >(see other postings for seasing tips!).
>
> You should be aware that what you have is _probably_ not a real yixing pot.
> Most of the inexpensive pots out there are not.
> --scott

writes:

> My understanding is that smaller tea pots are considered superior. Why
> this is I don't know. Perhaps because the greater ratio of surface area
> to volume assures greater absorbtion of flavours in the clay. Who
> knows.

In brewing Puerh, I think the answer is simple. You're going to get
*lots* of steeps if the tea's any good, so you probably want a small
brewing vessel unless you're severely dehydrated.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

My apologies... this went a little over the limit so its done it two posts.

Hello folks,
I had no idea my post would generate this much response so I will try to answer it all here. First of all there is one glaring error (my fault) I will address up front. I enjoyed Sashas' comment espeacially. The word that goes in there is "recieve". Also, my wife, XiaoLing, wants to know how you know that Sasha? I say that because the basic chemical elements undergo specific changes and behave in specific ways with the proper heating, reheating, etcetera. For instance, 90% of caffiene is effectively washed out in the first 30 seconds of brewing. That means that a particularly strong fermented and unfermented blend of loose leaf puer I found recently is effectively decaffinated because it needs 3 washings before you pao your first pot for drinking. The good part is that we get up to 20 pao out of it before we call it quits. There are many other such changes that affect when and how many benefits are most potent to virtually non-existant. Its too much to go into here, but let me just say that the repeated heating and proper handling of your brew (GonFuCha) is the best way to obtain maximum benefit. This has evolved over a very long period of time and the Chinese have got it down to an art and a science.

There also appears to some concern about my veracity regarding prices. This is a tough one to answer. The problem is that you are all right, but there are other consideration in each case. This is what I was talking about concerning misinformation. Many people have a great deal of very good information about tea and teapots and generally good paradigms but are missing some critical perspectives (and often have limited info in certain areas). This creates blind spots that are difficult to overcome and cause controversy among people who are generally right in there reasons for an opinion. I think the best way to answer this is to explain a little of what I do here and how it works. The problem here, I think, is not about people having bad info, but about perspectives created by incomplete views. A situation that is sadly almost unavoidable for most tea drinkers (particluarly novices) in the states.

Though tea is not my only business, tea and teaware is a major elemet in both my business and daily life. I live in Zhuhai just south of Macao. I am married to a beautiful Cantonese lady who helps me with business and have been embraced by her family, friends, and the business community. I think that in the process of explaining how my "typical" day goes you might better understand why my views are as they are.

Typically, when not working, I drink between 20 and 50 cups of tea a day depending on how much I socialise. This number often exceeds 100 when i'm working and buying tea. This is not considered excessive here. My personal favorites are puer, followed by oolong, and then good hard rolled ginseng. I buy and know good greens, reds, whites. The rest I simply don't deal with because of time and other restraints regarding my business.

I own pots for each of these but don't typically carry them with me when buying. The reason for this is the way buying is done in China and serious sellers know me and give me samples to try at home. If the seller can't pao the tea in a teapot set aside for what he is selling I simply won't buy. The comment about collectors and buyers in China not being willing to buy sight unseen (and tasted) is absolutely true. The comment about Chinese being in universal agreement about puer investment is also absolutely true and spreading globally. Good aged puer is getting harder to find all the time. Rip offs are getting more common every day as the "sell before market" bosses fight for the market. This is why serious buyers of quality puer don't buy from taobao or ebay. Its just guessing.

I am originally a midwest farmboy. I did business overseas for 20 years before settling in China. One aspect of my business is negotiating joint ventures between Chinese and American firms so I still have with and a good grasp of American business and trends. I pay for statistical services and other things that help me keep abreast of many things in both China and the states. These things are helpful but they do not replace something that is vital regarding the tea and teaware industry. That is the personal on the site relationship with the industry. Let me tell you a true story. You have in most likelihood never read something like this before. I don't know of its existance at any rate. I will tell you about an actual buying/selling session with a Chinese tea boss. I think that will be more informative than reciting statistics and prices.

My wife and I simply walk into the front shop and are greeted. He knows us. I am the only zhong guo guilo (Chinese Guilo) in Zhuhai in the tea business. There are a couple more in GuangDong province and maybe a dozen more spread across China. He knows that Zi Yau Ren You Xian Gung Si (Freeman Ltd.) is a family business that has many family (some related to him) in the business. I have face with this man and it would cost him face to treat me poorly. He invites me to sit at his tea table and starts looking over his pots.

While he looks over his pots we engage in small talk. Like the weather. This will be important later and I would lose face if I didn't pay attention. All of his pots are perfect or near perfect and he knows that I know it. I look over and smell any "new" pots. An bad pot can be used to cheat you. He gains face.

He pulls over a bag of loose leaf puer blend. Its a blend of fermented and unfermented. I know this but say nothing. I gain face and give him face. He sets a pot out front. I smell it and look it over. Then I reach into the bag and mix the top layer before taking a handfull to smell. He asks me if I want to try it. This is my opportunity to let him give me the sales pitch I know he has been setting me up for so I say simply ask what it is.

He has already told me the weather in Yunannan was rainy a while back and caused the plum trees to blossom late. This is important because the leaves for this blend were picked before the blossoms. Plums are common in China and particularly Yunnan where you often get a slight "plum" taste in the puer. This puer is being presented as having little or none of that problem. On the other hand they had some "lemon" puer on hand among the local bosses. By itself not really good puer. They decided to make a blend. This is it. Both of these puer were exceptionally strong and the lemon needs to be well washed. What I have here is a potentially good blend that needs 3 washings but should yield many good pao. It probably doesn't sit well with a Chinese taste in puer. They are trying to see if Americans would like it. I ask him how many pao will it make. He says up to 20 counting the washings.

We pao around six times not counting the washings and discuss its problems and assets. The Chinese don't have a taste for sweets like westerners so their idea of a good plum is almost sour to Americans. The plum taste in this puer is slight enough to be non existant in this blend, but the "lemon" is strong enough (though very mild) to be confused with bitterness past 10 pao or so if you don't understand "bitterness" from the Chinese view.

I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

See my next post for the rest.

Part 2... sorry its so long.... very rainy day here with extra time on my hands.


I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

He brings me 3 cakes and two boxes of bricks to look at (this fellow is exclusively puer). He asks me if i've heard about the fake puer from India that has been circulating lately. I let him know I have and look at one box that matches the description of the fakes. I gain face. He smiles. This is not the fake and he invites me to look it over.

I set a couple of the bricks up by the cakes and get out my puer pick. Two cakes have already been cut (a puer pick is used). I can see that the cut ones are good deep inside. I use my pic to cut the third and a brick. I would be considered stupid not to cut it and we would both lose face. Its a good cake (at least its not old puer pressed over new puer). The cakes are one to five years old he says, and the bricks are green. I ask him about prices.

We discuss the factories, farms, the GuangZhou sell before market bosses, and the weather again. During this I let him know my main interest today is green bricks. He is very proud of a five year old small leaf crab he has on the table and asks me to try it first. I know he doesn't really want to sell this right now and is "showing off" so I say sure. Its part of his investment stash and we both know it. We pao about 10 times and he is right. It is very good. The price is high, as I thought it would be, and would be considered too pricy at the price I would have to charge to do well with it. I tell him I wish I could afford it today but I have only brought enough to buy bricks (cash is king here). So we do about 7 or 8 pao of the brick. I ask about only the price of the bricks now.

These bricks still taste green, of course, but have everything else it takes to be a great puer in a year or two. I buy and drink a lot of puer. The price on these is depressed because of the fakes and time of year. We settle on a price of 70RMB (5 bricks = 1360g/box @ around $8.50 US). I tell him how many boxes I want and while he gets my order ready we chat and invite each other to the next get together (could be at anyones house or shop) to show off our new teas, pots, and fill the air with whatever business or family news is hot while our wives cook some (really) good food.

During this process there is ample opportunity to feel, smell, crumble, bend, spindle, fold, and mutilate tea until you are satisfied. Wet or dry. This process is repeated 5-10 times in a day with the only change being the tea you are buying and its requirements and proper examination. We take a break for high tea to relax with ourselves or friends. Eventually we make our way home to relax, entertain, or work (it never ends). This is not every day but regardless of what kind of business or pleasure is going on you can be assured tea is involved.

I hope this little story helps you to understand why I view and buy tea differently and that I have good reasons. I think it is impossible to get this kind of buying/selling experience outside of China. The capacity to have confidence in your purchase, its quality, its value, and keep a finger on the pulse of the tea market is unmatched. Much of that fake Indian puer is already in the states for instance. I now have more green bricks for my clients of high quality ($5 US and shipping... the five bucks is a handling charge and you don't pay that with a purchase). I think the only way I could be more honest and straightforward about this is if I were a better writer.

By the way, if you have ever seen a description of an actual tea sale anywhere let me know. I don't think there are many people in America or China in the tea business who want you to know.

Best regards.... Dan

Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
description was quite excellent, please post more like this!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike -

Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
neither Dan nor Renny.

Sasha.


"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>

Hi Alex,

His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.

I will forward the post to you vis email.

Mike







Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Mike -
>
> Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
> neither Dan nor Renny.
>
> Sasha.
>
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> > accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> > other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> > conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> > even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> > and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> > sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> > learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> > description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
> >
> > Mike
> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> >