Hi,
I googled around for a while but couldn't find any source for unburnt
zisha clay except of course those of factory #1 and# 2.
Does anyone here know of an online vendor for it - raw - or are there
any alternatives ?
I did some pottery a couple years back and would like to add some
selfmade Yixing pots to my collection.

Karsten / Darjeeling

> wrote:
>I googled around for a while but couldn't find any source for unburnt
>zisha clay except of course those of factory #1 and# 2.
>Does anyone here know of an online vendor for it - raw - or are there
>any alternatives ?
>I did some pottery a couple years back and would like to add some
>selfmade Yixing pots to my collection.

It is apparently impossible to find abroad. The Washington Folklife
Festival had a fellow two years ago making Yixing pots who came over
from China with his tools and a supply of clay. Some of what was
left over after the event wound up with a local ceramics guy who is
trying to analyze it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
> Hi,
> I googled around for a while but couldn't find any source for unburnt
> zisha clay except of course those of factory #1 and# 2.
> Does anyone here know of an online vendor for it - raw - or are there
> any alternatives ?
> I did some pottery a couple years back and would like to add some
> selfmade Yixing pots to my collection.

I am a collector and from my experience the "clay" is more like soup
and is not hand sculpted like clay but poured into moulds and fired.
I'm sure it could be worked as traditional pottery clay, but I'm not
sure to what results. Yixing teapots are almost entirely dependent on
the firing process for quality, it accounts for almost all of the
characteristics in a top quality teapot. I would assume that this would
be the hardest part to get right in the process.

I do not know of any way to get unfired zisha, and in fact the last
time I spoke with a friend that lives near there he was telling me how
the quality of the clay has gone down substantially and that top grade
stuff is very rare. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I tend to
believe him since he lives nearby and is pretty knowledgeable of Zisha
and Yixing teaware. It would be cool though to make your own, I know I
have thousands of ideas in my head.

Alas, as I'd really like to make a couple pots myself I think it's
better to look for alternatives than trying to get my hands on what may
probably turn out as some 3rd grade mud. Back in my university years I
used to job as a control engineer in a ceramics factory. AFAIR they
have some fancy equipment to analyze all sorts of glass and ceramics,
physically and chemically. Time to pay those guys a surprise visit, and
do a little analysis of my not too sophisticated little Yixing pots.

Karsten / Darjeeling




Dominic T. wrote:
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I googled around for a while but couldn't find any source for unburnt
> > zisha clay except of course those of factory #1 and# 2.
> > Does anyone here know of an online vendor for it - raw - or are there
> > any alternatives ?
> > I did some pottery a couple years back and would like to add some
> > selfmade Yixing pots to my collection.
>
> I am a collector and from my experience the "clay" is more like soup
> and is not hand sculpted like clay but poured into moulds and fired.
> I'm sure it could be worked as traditional pottery clay, but I'm not
> sure to what results. Yixing teapots are almost entirely dependent on
> the firing process for quality, it accounts for almost all of the
> characteristics in a top quality teapot. I would assume that this would
> be the hardest part to get right in the process.
>
> I do not know of any way to get unfired zisha, and in fact the last
> time I spoke with a friend that lives near there he was telling me how
> the quality of the clay has gone down substantially and that top grade
> stuff is very rare. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I tend to
> believe him since he lives nearby and is pretty knowledgeable of Zisha
> and Yixing teaware. It would be cool though to make your own, I know I
> have thousands of ideas in my head.

There is an indiviual Chinese potter in Cupertino CA that has a site
chineseclayart.com that sold zisha, tools etc.

Sasha.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Alas, as I'd really like to make a couple pots myself I think it's
> better to look for alternatives than trying to get my hands on what may
> probably turn out as some 3rd grade mud. Back in my university years I
> used to job as a control engineer in a ceramics factory. AFAIR they
> have some fancy equipment to analyze all sorts of glass and ceramics,
> physically and chemically. Time to pay those guys a surprise visit, and
> do a little analysis of my not too sophisticated little Yixing pots.
>
> Karsten / Darjeeling
>
>
>
>
> Dominic T. wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > I googled around for a while but couldn't find any source for unburnt
>> > zisha clay except of course those of factory #1 and# 2.
>> > Does anyone here know of an online vendor for it - raw - or are there
>> > any alternatives ?
>> > I did some pottery a couple years back and would like to add some
>> > selfmade Yixing pots to my collection.
>>
>> I am a collector and from my experience the "clay" is more like soup
>> and is not hand sculpted like clay but poured into moulds and fired.
>> I'm sure it could be worked as traditional pottery clay, but I'm not
>> sure to what results. Yixing teapots are almost entirely dependent on
>> the firing process for quality, it accounts for almost all of the
>> characteristics in a top quality teapot. I would assume that this would
>> be the hardest part to get right in the process.
>>
>> I do not know of any way to get unfired zisha, and in fact the last
>> time I spoke with a friend that lives near there he was telling me how
>> the quality of the clay has gone down substantially and that top grade
>> stuff is very rare. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I tend to
>> believe him since he lives nearby and is pretty knowledgeable of Zisha
>> and Yixing teaware. It would be cool though to make your own, I know I
>> have thousands of ideas in my head.
>
>

>I do not know of any way to get unfired zisha, and in fact the last
>time I spoke with a friend that lives near there he was telling me how
>the quality of the clay has gone down substantially and that top grade
>stuff is very rare. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I tend to
>believe him since he lives nearby and is pretty knowledgeable of Zisha
>and Yixing teaware. It would be cool though to make your own, I know I
>have thousands of ideas in my head.

Many folks are saying this. I've heard people say also that there is
little real zisha left because of over-mining the area. Many "zisha"
pots that are sold in shops here aren't even zisha at all, just normal
clay. It's like everything else around here. Most of the good stuff
is told abroad while the lower quality stuff is sold to the locals.
About 99 percent of the pots sold here are factory made; even the ones
with "paper" backing them up to being handmade. This market is just as
dubious as the Pu'er market.

"Scientist" > wrote in message
. com...
> There is an indiviual Chinese potter in Cupertino CA that has a site
> chineseclayart.com that sold zisha, tools etc.
>
> Sasha.
>



This is what I was talking about in the message above (as Scientist -
http://chineseclayart.com/mall/c110/..._materials.asp

Also on the same site - tools for zisha modelling, shapes, tonns of stuff.
As far as I know this is a unique shop, I was looking for years and this is
the only one I found.

Sasha.

Mydnight > wrote:
Well, I can say that an awful lot of "zisha" pots sold here in the US
aren't the real thing either.

Not only in the US but also in China (and Thailand (Bangkok), Malaysia
(Penang/KL), ... were you can find lots of pots on sale).
Some of the vendors I asked in Kunming and elsewhere freely admitted
that even some of their higher priced pots were not made of real zisha.
Took me a lot of time to get my humble collection together.
I really wonder if the zisha they sell on the aforementioned website is
the real thing.

Karsten / Darjeeling

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> "Scientist" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > There is an indiviual Chinese potter in Cupertino CA that has a site
> > chineseclayart.com that sold zisha, tools etc.
> >
> > Sasha.
> >
>
>
>
> This is what I was talking about in the message above (as Scientist -
> http://chineseclayart.com/mall/c110/..._materials.asp
>
> Also on the same site - tools for zisha modelling, shapes, tonns of stuff.
> As far as I know this is a unique shop, I was looking for years and this is
> the only one I found.
>
> Sasha.

Actually that is most likely not real zisha clay, unfortunately. I have
been a Yixing collector for about 10 years now, and have had many
conversations with actual craftsmen. True "purple clay" is very scarce
and costs more than $10 a lb. even at the source, most likely this is
the same lower quality clay that a lot of knock offs are being made
from. Nowhere on the site linked to, do they claim that this is real
zisha, and if they were a true supplier of real zisha clay they would
have that information prominently displayed (and in numerous places)
since there is such demand for it.

However, that being said, I would actually say to use this type of clay
for any endeavors the novice may want to pursue. It is cheap, decent
quality, and will work fine. Leave the real thing to the real masters,
I'd shudder to think of real zisha going from a teapot to an odd ash
tray in the hands of a beginner with more money than skill.

I have seen real artisans at work, and it is an amazing sight. We're
talking many years of study and practice and understanding before ever
even getting started.

- Dominic

Mydnight wrote:
> When I said "here," I meant China; I'm here now. heh. Sorry for the
> confusion.
>
> I just think it's a sad state of affairs when some of the most
> treasured cultural portions of a country have been saturated with so
> many fakes that even experts can hardly be able to tell the fake from
> the real. This is the reality that we are facing when we dabble in tea
> culture, I'm afraid.

It is sad in some ways but good in another. It is only bad when fakes
are passed off as genuine for very high prices, but enabling the
average person around the world to own a lower quality Yixing at a low
price is nice. I know I have been fooled a couple of times though and
even a friend of mine who's parents grew up around that region have
been fooled by the same ones when I showed them.

I don't buy into the ultra rare and expensive pots, so for me they are
either to be used or to be displayed. I have great respect for a number
of older artisans and appreciate the very expensive ones, I just don't
have a need or desire to buy them.

I will say though that the few true zisha pots I do own that were
created by highly skilled craftsmen are truly excellent and worth every
penny. It is a double edged sword though and when a person becomes
turned off by a cheap recreation that doesn't perform or falls apart it
is a shame. I guess I just have mixed feelings about the whole state of
affairs.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
>> "Scientist" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>> > There is an indiviual Chinese potter in Cupertino CA that has a site
>> > chineseclayart.com that sold zisha, tools etc.
>> >
>> > Sasha.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> This is what I was talking about in the message above (as Scientist -
>> http://chineseclayart.com/mall/c110/..._materials.asp
>>
>> Also on the same site - tools for zisha modelling, shapes, tonns of
>> stuff.
>> As far as I know this is a unique shop, I was looking for years and this
>> is
>> the only one I found.
>>
>> Sasha.
>
> Actually that is most likely not real zisha clay, unfortunately. I have
> been a Yixing collector for about 10 years now, and have had many
> conversations with actual craftsmen. True "purple clay" is very scarce
> and costs more than $10 a lb. even at the source, most likely this is
> the same lower quality clay that a lot of knock offs are being made
> from. Nowhere on the site linked to, do they claim that this is real
> zisha, and if they were a true supplier of real zisha clay they would
> have that information prominently displayed (and in numerous places)
> since there is such demand for it.
>
> However, that being said, I would actually say to use this type of clay
> for any endeavors the novice may want to pursue. It is cheap, decent
> quality, and will work fine. Leave the real thing to the real masters,
> I'd shudder to think of real zisha going from a teapot to an odd ash
> tray in the hands of a beginner with more money than skill.
>
> I have seen real artisans at work, and it is an amazing sight. We're
> talking many years of study and practice and understanding before ever
> even getting started.
>
> - Dominic
>

Actually, you should not pass a judgment before you have a chance to
examine.
If they are not cocky about it, it may be because Chinese tend to be more
humble then some of our homegrown "experts".
Take a good look at the site, take a look at who runs it.

I had a chance to examine a sample three years ago from a geological point
of view and the quartz content, the size, the degree of roundness of quartz
particles looked right. What test do you use to authenticate zisha in
general and yixing zisha in particular?
If you know about a geological, petrologic, mineralogical or any other tests
that can reliably determine "yixingness" of zisha other than being in a form
of raw sandstone, please, share it with us. I will buy some clay, divide it
in several samples then and submit it to this test at different labs at my
own expense. Then you will not be just bad-mouthing people you do not know,
but generating knowledge.

Sasha.

Dominic wrote:
> Actually that is most likely not real zisha clay, unfortunately. I have
> been a Yixing collector for about 10 years now, and have had many
> conversations with actual craftsmen.

Boy am I glad that I'm not a collector, I probably would have gone mad
during my travels in China, be it Yixing pots or Pu Erhs.
After having been to China 5 times I'd say it's almost impossible for a
foreigner without connections to get his/her hands on the real stuff.
Keeping the huge language barriers in mind and not forgetting the local
buyers who most probably get the better pots at better prices anyway
I'm really glad that I found some humble "authentic" pots at all. How
to tell ? Wherever I went I kept my pots ready to show them off to all
kinds of tea vendors I visited. There were two pots among the 5 I
bought on my last trip that didn't cause any of the vendors or
bystanders to break out laughing when I showed them around. The other 3
were always good for a laugh, especially when I mentioned the prices I
paid for them. Those 2 though (one of them slightly leaking) used to be
passed around, received closer examinations and sometimes were loudly
discussed.
In the end I spend some time curing all 5 of them but those two, well I
guess they're special little pots indeed, and after 100s of liters of
Darjeelings during the last 4 months I can't wait to be back home and
enjoy some Oolongs and Pu Erhs for a little change of pace.
And then in December I'll be back to China, let me see how they rip me
off this time around.

Karsten / Darjeeling

> Boy am I glad that I'm not a collector, I probably would have gone mad
> during my travels in China, be it Yixing pots or Pu Erhs.
> After having been to China 5 times I'd say it's almost impossible for a
> foreigner without connections to get his/her hands on the real stuff.

>
> Karsten / Darjeeling
>

I humbly disagree. China is full of authentic stuff that can be obtained for
reasonable prices if you know what you are looking for and can identify it.
If you are that type of a collector, you will find local Chinese antique
markets a wonderful hunting ground. If one is a Christie - type collector
and one wants to buy great pieces occasionally protected by great reputation
of a seller - then you can buy at state antique shops like the one at Gugun
(and also there is actual Christie!

It is the collector that wants to buy real (and popular) stuff for peanuts
and cannot distinguish it from fakes who has little chance in China. But
there is a secret - such a "collector" has little chance finding this kind
of deals anywhere. The greatest collectors are the ones who start seeing the
beauty where noone saw it before. They buy what others consider useless and
build collections that one day convince the world otherwise. Then the eyes
of the world gets open and now everyone and his uncle has to have it. With
all the consequences.

I find the situation wonderful and fascinating. Because the real yixing
zisha is so easily faked and so many collectors are disappointed, the prices
for antique zisha remains low. Some of the so-called experts both in the
West and in China may be good at reliably identifying the obvious and
not-so-obvious fakes, but they can also proclaim a genuine item a fake
because they do not use scientific approach.
There are reliable ways to authenticate yixing zisha material by its clay
minerals and particles content. That requires cutting off a tiny sliver of
material (I usually do it from the internal part of the handle) and making
what is called in petrography a "thin section" of it and examining it under
polarized light microscope.
Sometimes just polishing the small spot on the surface is enough., but you
have to be an expert on reflection microscopy (metallurgical microscopy) and
its less common than the transmission microscopy with thin sections.

Other, completely non-destructive methods based on unique physical
properties of zisha can be used. One that I like the most is the
measurements of interstitial porosity. Yet another - X-ray
scatter.(debyegram) of a tiny sample that you can shave off the same spot -
inside the handle. And it can be done mostly for free in the locally because
almost all state universities have programs to allow public to use their lab
capabilities for non-commercial work..

I am not a "collector" and I value some of my fakes as much as my originals
for their beauty and craftsmanship. I use them and occasionally break them
up and this is life. I find the science of yixing clay geology and zisha
identification fascinating and hope one day to find a good deposit of zisha
here in the States. And I accept the simple fact that market laws will
always make it inevitable that demand will be met by supply. In antique
market supply always mean certain level of fakes and it was that way from
times immemorial. This has nothing to do with China specifically. European
art and jewellery markets are full of fakes. You should have seen the large
(and I mean - large!) pearls made like a jigsaw puzzles from slivers of
mother-of-pearl from Holland and Germany made by the best jewellery firms
since 18 century!
And yet I hear everywhere voices that complain about Chinese fakes with
quite a racist undertone - implying that somehow Chinese are less to be
trusted than the rest of us. If some of my fellow Americans really think
that people on this continent is more trustworthy, that only means that they
never had any dealings with American financial industry. Or legal industry.
Or bought a car. Or looked at their medical coverage carefully. Or lost
their pension. Or heard the word "Enron". Or voted last year.

"Its all the same f***ing day, man" as Janice Joplin once said.

Sasha.

snip

> I will say though that the few true zisha pots I do own that were
> created by highly skilled craftsmen are truly excellent and worth every
> penny. It is a double edged sword though and when a person becomes
> turned off by a cheap recreation that doesn't perform or falls apart it
> is a shame. I guess I just have mixed feelings about the whole state of
> affairs.
> - Dominic

Dominic, I'd sure like to see photos of tose treasured pots of yours. Did
you put them up on the web or perhaps in one of the groups? I'm going to
try to put my collection up on the web. (Mine are mostly minor, but I'm fond
of them all, and use them for different purposes. None are for display.)

In the part of your post that I snipped, you and Mydnight discussed fakery
in Pu'erh. If I can't tell the difference between an authentic and a fake
cake, then that fake is pretty damned good. The only problem becomes the
phoney attributions and claims made for it, right?

Michael

Alex digy.net3/2/06


> And I think its good that there are so many fakes.
> If one can tell the difference between an original and fake one can choose
> the original. If one can't - one does not deserve the original.
> Just throwing money at something and expecting it to be true is contrary to
> all I learned from life. Its the work of heart and mind that allow you to
> separate gems from shit. And you should be eager and able to do that work.

Sometimes it is not the gem buried in shit; it's the discovery that what you
thought was shit is gem.
>
> Recently in NY I was in a house of a very wealthy man, his wife took me on a
> tour of their East Side apartment. They had a lovely collection of Russian
> early 20 century art. The art is Russian, I am Russian, so it felt
> appropriate for her (me just roll eyes).
> She was pointing at things and chattering "This is Mashkin? Mishkin? We
> bought it in Paris and the price was brutal". It was Mashkov and it was
> priceless. Truly, I wish it was a fake.

Wow. So do I. And why isn't it in a museum? Tell them the glory accrues to
those who donate.

Michael

Alex igy.com3/3/06


>> Boy am I glad that I'm not a collector, I probably would have gone mad
>> during my travels in China, be it Yixing pots or Pu Erhs.
>> After having been to China 5 times I'd say it's almost impossible for a
>> foreigner without connections to get his/her hands on the real stuff.
>
>>
>> Karsten / Darjeeling
>>
>
> I humbly disagree. China is full of authentic stuff that can be obtained for
> reasonable prices if you know what you are looking for and can identify it.
> If you are that type of a collector, you will find local Chinese antique
> markets a wonderful hunting ground. If one is a Christie - type collector
> and one wants to buy great pieces occasionally protected by great reputation
> of a seller - then you can buy at state antique shops like the one at Gugun
> (and also there is actual Christie!
>
> It is the collector that wants to buy real (and popular) stuff for peanuts
> and cannot distinguish it from fakes who has little chance in China. But
> there is a secret - such a "collector" has little chance finding this kind
> of deals anywhere. The greatest collectors are the ones who start seeing the
> beauty where noone saw it before. They buy what others consider useless and
> build collections that one day convince the world otherwise. Then the eyes
> of the world gets open and now everyone and his uncle has to have it. With
> all the consequences.
>
> I find the situation wonderful and fascinating. Because the real yixing
> zisha is so easily faked and so many collectors are disappointed, the prices
> for antique zisha remains low. Some of the so-called experts both in the
> West and in China may be good at reliably identifying the obvious and
> not-so-obvious fakes, but they can also proclaim a genuine item a fake
> because they do not use scientific approach.
> There are reliable ways to authenticate yixing zisha material by its clay
> minerals and particles content. That requires cutting off a tiny sliver of
> material (I usually do it from the internal part of the handle) and making
> what is called in petrography a "thin section" of it and examining it under
> polarized light microscope.
> Sometimes just polishing the small spot on the surface is enough., but you
> have to be an expert on reflection microscopy (metallurgical microscopy) and
> its less common than the transmission microscopy with thin sections.
>
> Other, completely non-destructive methods based on unique physical
> properties of zisha can be used. One that I like the most is the
> measurements of interstitial porosity. Yet another - X-ray
> scatter.(debyegram) of a tiny sample that you can shave off the same spot -
> inside the handle. And it can be done mostly for free in the locally because
> almost all state universities have programs to allow public to use their lab
> capabilities for non-commercial work..
>
> I am not a "collector" and I value some of my fakes as much as my originals
> for their beauty and craftsmanship. I use them and occasionally break them
> up and this is life. I find the science of yixing clay geology and zisha
> identification fascinating and hope one day to find a good deposit of zisha
> here in the States. And I accept the simple fact that market laws will
> always make it inevitable that demand will be met by supply. In antique
> market supply always mean certain level of fakes and it was that way from
> times immemorial. This has nothing to do with China specifically. European
> art and jewellery markets are full of fakes. You should have seen the large
> (and I mean - large!) pearls made like a jigsaw puzzles from slivers of
> mother-of-pearl from Holland and Germany made by the best jewellery firms
> since 18 century!
> And yet I hear everywhere voices that complain about Chinese fakes with
> quite a racist undertone - implying that somehow Chinese are less to be
> trusted than the rest of us. If some of my fellow Americans really think
> that people on this continent is more trustworthy, that only means that they
> never had any dealings with American financial industry. Or legal industry.
> Or bought a car. Or looked at their medical coverage carefully. Or lost
> their pension. Or heard the word "Enron". Or voted last year.
>
> "Its all the same f***ing day, man" as Janice Joplin once said.
>
> Sasha.
>
>

Sasha,

I am impressed with the sentiments of your post. Well done!
BTW, did you get my e-mail regarding the teas from Abkhazia?
Michael

Hi Sasha,
thanks for the reply, but as said before I'm glad I'm not a collector,
I was just in the market for pots made of real zisha clay for everyday
use, no artworks, I'm still more interested in the tea that comes out
of them. But now, with that valuable information you supplied I'll be
on the lookout for some more fancy pots the next time around. Maybe I
get hooked one day and start collecting.
PS: I'm pretty familar with the analytical tools you've mentioned
(X-Ray scatter, reflection microscopy, ...) from my university time and
a couple jobs and maybe they come in handy during my next trip.

Thanks again,
Karsten / Darjeeling

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Actually, you should not pass a judgment before you have a chance to
> examine.
> If they are not cocky about it, it may be because Chinese tend to be more
> humble then some of our homegrown "experts".
> Take a good look at the site, take a look at who runs it.
>
> I had a chance to examine a sample three years ago from a geological point
> of view and the quartz content, the size, the degree of roundness of quartz
> particles looked right. What test do you use to authenticate zisha in
> general and yixing zisha in particular?


Whoa, Whoa, Whoa... I never "passed judgement" I simply stated that if
this vendor was selling true zisha that they would make it quite
clear... that is not being cocky, that is just simply stating what you
are selling. Just like how most people around here want to only buy tea
from sites that provide some real information, same thing with zisha...
cockyness has nothing to do with informing your customers about your
product as fully as possible. I also found the $10 a lb. to be quite
low and also a sign that it may not be of the highest quality... that
was all. I did read about the site, it's owners, and even did some
searching as to who their distributor was for their products.

I am not a geologist. I am a computer scientist. I have no laboratories
or tests for mineral content, I have my senses and my knowledge that I
have gained over the short while I have been into Yixing teapots. I
don't claim to be an expert, and I even hesitate to call myself a
"collector" because I too highly prize some of my cheapest pots and
mugs and almost all of mine get used routinely.

I meant no disrespect, and I never said anything bad at all about the
site. In fact I said that this was a good thing for a beginner, and
endorsed the site and its products. I still say that this is not 100%
the real deal at $10 a lb., it may be very close or even very good...
but as I said from past conversations with folks who travel there or
have family near there it costs more than that at the source for a
person to buy it. So to import it, taxes, markup, etc. $10/lb. is a
cause for questioning in my eyes. I could be totally wrong, and again,
I am not claiming that I am an authority nor am I saying anything
negative about that website. Sorry for any confusion.

- Dominic
Drinking: Congo Bongo Tea... some strange coconut/black tea.

Hey, Dominic -

I do not claim that your intent was to pass judgment, but you certainly did,
even if unintentionally.
But it was quite honorable of you to answer the way you did.

If you ever in Bay Area (as a programmer you may) pay a visit to these
guys - you won't regret it. "Po" Zhou is a very nice guy, a true teacher and
artist and hardly makes any money from the yixing school that he runs. You
will be met with warmth and courtesy that are so rare these days. Take a
class or two - for $18/day its virtually free. And then go have some of
"monkey picked" and/or "phoenix" oolongs at my friend Roys' place at the
corner or Powell and Broadway in SF - at "Imperial Tea".

And if you are in Reno, NV I can brew some very nice tea for you at my home,
and we can talk programming that ate away about 10 years of my own life

Cheers,

Sasha.



"Dominic T." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
>> Actually, you should not pass a judgment before you have a chance to
>> examine.
>> If they are not cocky about it, it may be because Chinese tend to be more
>> humble then some of our homegrown "experts".
>> Take a good look at the site, take a look at who runs it.
>>
>> I had a chance to examine a sample three years ago from a geological
>> point
>> of view and the quartz content, the size, the degree of roundness of
>> quartz
>> particles looked right. What test do you use to authenticate zisha in
>> general and yixing zisha in particular?
>
>
> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa... I never "passed judgement" I simply stated that if
> this vendor was selling true zisha that they would make it quite
> clear... that is not being cocky, that is just simply stating what you
> are selling. Just like how most people around here want to only buy tea
> from sites that provide some real information, same thing with zisha...
> cockyness has nothing to do with informing your customers about your
> product as fully as possible. I also found the $10 a lb. to be quite
> low and also a sign that it may not be of the highest quality... that
> was all. I did read about the site, it's owners, and even did some
> searching as to who their distributor was for their products.
>
> I am not a geologist. I am a computer scientist. I have no laboratories
> or tests for mineral content, I have my senses and my knowledge that I
> have gained over the short while I have been into Yixing teapots. I
> don't claim to be an expert, and I even hesitate to call myself a
> "collector" because I too highly prize some of my cheapest pots and
> mugs and almost all of mine get used routinely.
>
> I meant no disrespect, and I never said anything bad at all about the
> site. In fact I said that this was a good thing for a beginner, and
> endorsed the site and its products. I still say that this is not 100%
> the real deal at $10 a lb., it may be very close or even very good...
> but as I said from past conversations with folks who travel there or
> have family near there it costs more than that at the source for a
> person to buy it. So to import it, taxes, markup, etc. $10/lb. is a
> cause for questioning in my eyes. I could be totally wrong, and again,
> I am not claiming that I am an authority nor am I saying anything
> negative about that website. Sorry for any confusion.
>
> - Dominic
> Drinking: Congo Bongo Tea... some strange coconut/black tea.
>

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Hey, Dominic -
>
> I do not claim that your intent was to pass judgment, but you certainly did,
> even if unintentionally.
> But it was quite honorable of you to answer the way you did.
>
> If you ever in Bay Area (as a programmer you may) pay a visit to these
> guys - you won't regret it. "Po" Zhou is a very nice guy, a true teacher and
> artist and hardly makes any money from the yixing school that he runs. You
> will be met with warmth and courtesy that are so rare these days. Take a
> class or two - for $18/day its virtually free. And then go have some of
> "monkey picked" and/or "phoenix" oolongs at my friend Roys' place at the
> corner or Powell and Broadway in SF - at "Imperial Tea".
>
> And if you are in Reno, NV I can brew some very nice tea for you at my home,
> and we can talk programming that ate away about 10 years of my own life

Hello Sasha,

I simply gave my opinion and my thoughts, I really try to tread lightly
and not ruffle feathers as much as possible here and I am sorry if I
did. If you know this "Po" Zhou personally, you should really explain
to him how it would help him immensely to add some more detailed
information on his clay section, and to add it to his search engine
info (metatags) because there is a very large market for real zisha and
he would (by my estimation) be the sole source of the clay online in
the U.S.! He wouldn't be poor for long.

I'm not a programmer actually, I am a Network Administrator for a bank.
So no travel for me. However, what you have described would be like
heaven for me. To actually take lessons from a skilled artisan and
realise one of my dreams to make my own Yixing teapot. That would be
worth it for me to take a vacation to SF just for that, and I just may,
honestly. I don't see any trips to Reno in my near future, but that
also would be an honor I'm sure. I've been stuck doing programming in
my line of work a number of times... in fact (since you seem to be
involved in the lab/scientific field) I worked on a classified program
that ran fluoride analisys machines and automated the data entry work
of entering the results. It actually caused about 4 lab workers to lose
their jobs (which was something they had said would not happen), and
after that I never wanted to be put in that situation again. I have my
fair share of tales as well.

- Dominic

No, I do not know him personally although I spoke to him and some of the
yixing experts from China that frequently visit and teach at his school.
I would also never give business advice to Chinese. Not that they cannot
use it, but they have their own way of doing things and quite successfully
too, albeit differently. I also suspect that you very much overestimated the
potential market for raw zisha here.

Recently I bought several Oni-hagi chawans by famous masters from a Japanese
vendor on Ebay and was stunned by his pricing - it was less than a quarter
of what he might have got in Japan. I am talking less than $50 for a huge
Chado yonomi signed and in calligraphed pavlonia box, etc.
Turns out he sells several such Items a month on Ebay to introduce Japanese
tea yakimono to the western buyers.
There are people with missions and telling them how to run their businesses
is a waste of their and my time.

The lab workers should have found other jobs with no problems - anyone today
who knows anything about running analytical equipment is a rarity. You are a
New Yorker, are you not? You seem to be one of the dying species of bleeding
hearts which could only survive in NY. I admire that despite being a
paleoconservative.

Sasha.


> Hello Sasha,
>
> I simply gave my opinion and my thoughts, I really try to tread lightly
> and not ruffle feathers as much as possible here and I am sorry if I
> did. If you know this "Po" Zhou personally, you should really explain
> to him how it would help him immensely to add some more detailed
> information on his clay section, and to add it to his search engine
> info (metatags) because there is a very large market for real zisha and
> he would (by my estimation) be the sole source of the clay online in
> the U.S.! He wouldn't be poor for long.
>
> I'm not a programmer actually, I am a Network Administrator for a bank.
> So no travel for me. However, what you have described would be like
> heaven for me. To actually take lessons from a skilled artisan and
> realise one of my dreams to make my own Yixing teapot. That would be
> worth it for me to take a vacation to SF just for that, and I just may,
> honestly. I don't see any trips to Reno in my near future, but that
> also would be an honor I'm sure. I've been stuck doing programming in
> my line of work a number of times... in fact (since you seem to be
> involved in the lab/scientific field) I worked on a classified program
> that ran fluoride analisys machines and automated the data entry work
> of entering the results. It actually caused about 4 lab workers to lose
> their jobs (which was something they had said would not happen), and
> after that I never wanted to be put in that situation again. I have my
> fair share of tales as well.
>
> - Dominic
>

>And I think its good that there are so many fakes.
>If one can tell the difference between an original and fake one can choose
>the original. If one can't - one does not deserve the original.

That's a bunch of cod's wallop. I have been told by various "experts"
in the field that zisha and pu'er are two of the most difficult markets
to deal in. They also told me that it's nearly impossible for someone
that's living outside of Jiangshu, China to be able to get good pieces
at reasonable prices.

>Its the work of heart and mind that allow you to
>separate gems from shit.

The dealers will look you directly in the eye and without even
flinching tell you that a factory grade pot that's worth about 15 yuan
(not even 2 dollars) is worth thousands. No matter who you think you
know here in China, everyone should be suspect; especially if it comes
to money.