Hi all,

I recently tried this cake, "2004 Mengku Wu Chi Dao Wild Large Leaf",

<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4428079052>

and was just a bit disappointed. I'd be interested if anyone else,
especially one of the Pu-erh people, has tried it as well, and what their
reactions were. My tastes are still developing. However, it wouldn't
come as a terrific shock to learn, for example, that the reason the tea
is described as "affordable" (is it really a good value for wild large
leaf?) is because the factory isn't the best, or that 2004 was an
off-year there, or it really wasn't aged enough, or what have you. (Of
course, could be that I just prefer cooked...)

My ignorance is formidable, and a knowledgeable response would be helpful in
reducing it. :-) Thank you.

Ozzy

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:28:46 -0600, Ozzy > wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I recently tried this cake, "2004 Mengku Wu Chi Dao Wild Large Leaf",
>
><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4428079052>
>
>and was just a bit disappointed. I'd be interested if anyone else,
>especially one of the Pu-erh people, has tried it as well, and what their
>reactions were. My tastes are still developing. However, it wouldn't
>come as a terrific shock to learn, for example, that the reason the tea
>is described as "affordable" (is it really a good value for wild large
>leaf?) is because the factory isn't the best, or that 2004 was an
>off-year there, or it really wasn't aged enough, or what have you. (Of
>course, could be that I just prefer cooked...)
>
>My ignorance is formidable, and a knowledgeable response would be helpful in
>reducing it. :-) Thank you.
>
>Ozzy


Hi Ozzy,

What I need to ask at this point is if you have tried any other green
puerhs? Green puerh is quite a different animal if Black puerh is what
you are accustomed to. Almost any young green will be bitter and
astringent, especially if it was not properly brewed.

How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
20-30 years under it's belt.

I have tried this tea and it wasn't bad. While they are not my
favorite, Mengku teas are not substandard by any means as far as I
know.

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

[Ozzy]
>> I recently tried this cake, "2004 Mengku Wu Chi Dao Wild Large Leaf",
>>
>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4428079052>
>>
>> and was just a bit disappointed. I'd be interested if anyone else,
>> especially one of the Pu-erh people, has tried it as well, and what their
>> reactions were. My tastes are still developing. However, it wouldn't
>> come as a terrific shock to learn, for example, that the reason the tea
>> is described as "affordable" (is it really a good value for wild large
>> leaf?) is because the factory isn't the best, or that 2004 was an
>> off-year there, or it really wasn't aged enough, or what have you. (Of
>> course, could be that I just prefer cooked...)
>>
>> My ignorance is formidable, and a knowledgeable response would be helpful in
>> reducing it. :-) Thank you.

[Mike]
> Hi Ozzy,
>
> What I need to ask at this point is if you have tried any other green
> puerhs? Green puerh is quite a different animal if Black puerh is what
> you are accustomed to. Almost any young green will be bitter and
> astringent, especially if it was not properly brewed.
>
> How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
> infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
> 20-30 years under it's belt.

[Michael]
Good points on brewing.

Mike, a note on your last sentence here. I beg to differ, but it might be a
simple matter of semantics. A green Pu'erh can be perfectly smooth from its
outset, but that smoothness will more than likely lack the subtle
camphor/mint/leather/plum notes -- never all together, I know -- of an old
Pu'erh. The young Pu'erh of good family will present among other things
flower/fruit/smoke/must/astringency/bitterness, sometimes in such balance as
to make it delightful. I'm a big fan of bitter, by the way; as long as it
lives happily with sweetness and other qualities I crave. See what I mean?

> I have tried this tea and it wasn't bad. While they are not my
> favorite, Mengku teas are not substandard by any means as far as I
> know.

As I mentioned to Ozzy, the pictures certainly make it look enticing.

Michael
Drinking a 1970's 7542. Mint mint yum yum and lives long and prospers.

> > How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
> > infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
> > 20-30 years under it's belt.
>
> [Michael]
> Good points on brewing.
>
> Mike, a note on your last sentence here. I beg to differ, but it might be a
> simple matter of semantics. A green Pu'erh can be perfectly smooth from its
> outset, but that smoothness will more than likely lack the subtle
> camphor/mint/leather/plum notes -- never all together, I know -- of an old
> Pu'erh. The young Pu'erh of good family will present among other things
> flower/fruit/smoke/must/astringency/bitterness, sometimes in such balance as
> to make it delightful. I'm a big fan of bitter, by the way; as long as it
> lives happily with sweetness and other qualities I crave. See what I mean?

You are correct Michael, I did not express myself very well there. The
analogy I had in mind was "when does the smoothness of a typical
Green puerh approach the smoothness of a Typical Black puerh?"
Green/sheng/raw is such a different animal that it is difficult to
convey the differences to someone who has only know Black/shu/cooked.
It sounded to me like the original poster may have only tried black
puerh in the past and I was looking for an analogy that would make
sense to a newbie, I obviously failed.

Mike
www.pu-erh.net

Mike 2/16/06


>
>>> How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
>>> infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
>>> 20-30 years under it's belt.
>>
>> [Michael]
>> Good points on brewing.
>>
>> Mike, a note on your last sentence here. I beg to differ, but it might be a
>> simple matter of semantics. A green Pu'erh can be perfectly smooth from its
>> outset, but that smoothness will more than likely lack the subtle
>> camphor/mint/leather/plum notes -- never all together, I know -- of an old
>> Pu'erh. The young Pu'erh of good family will present among other things
>> flower/fruit/smoke/must/astringency/bitterness, sometimes in such balance as
>> to make it delightful. I'm a big fan of bitter, by the way; as long as it
>> lives happily with sweetness and other qualities I crave. See what I mean?
>
> You are correct Michael, I did not express myself very well there. The
> analogy I had in mind was "when does the smoothness of a typical
> Green puerh approach the smoothness of a Typical Black puerh?"
> Green/sheng/raw is such a different animal that it is difficult to
> convey the differences to someone who has only know Black/shu/cooked.
> It sounded to me like the original poster may have only tried black
> puerh in the past and I was looking for an analogy that would make
> sense to a newbie, I obviously failed.


Not necessarily failed. I wasn't thinking at all of shu when I made my
statement. That's another thing. It really is semantics because there are so
many styles of smooth out there. What I like about a really good shu is its
creamy loam. That's smooth.

Michael

>How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
>infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
>20-30 years under it's belt.

I'm sorta weirded out right now. I've found all the tea merchants here
and elsewhere to be such liars and fakers, that I am willing to believe
that there is such a small amount of tea that's even older than 10
years old left, that it barely ever goes on market. You have no idea
how many times I've been told "this tea is x" years old even by
merchants that I've dealt with. So far, I've only found one guy that
doesn't lie to much, and most of his tea kinda sucks.

I've stored 2 boxes of Menghai Fang Cha for 2 years and it's decently
smooth now. What the hell, right? I don't consider myself to have
more knowledge than anybody else when it comes to Pu'er, but this has
really got me thinking how much can we really trust.

>How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
>infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
>20-30 years under it's belt.

Sorry, ya'll, I forgot about the quoting thing.

I sed in relation to the above quote:

I'm sorta weirded out right now. I've found all the tea merchants here

and elsewhere to be such liars and fakers, that I am willing to believe

that there is such a small amount of tea that's even older than 10
years old left, that it barely ever goes on market. You have no idea
how many times I've been told "this tea is x" years old even by
merchants that I've dealt with. So far, I've only found one guy that
doesn't lie to much, and most of his tea kinda sucks.

I've stored 2 boxes of Menghai Fang Cha for 2 years and it's decently
smooth now. What the hell, right? I don't consider myself to have
more knowledge than anybody else when it comes to Pu'er, but this has
really got me thinking how much can we really trust.


Reply Rate this post: Text for clearing space

Mydnight wrote:
> >How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
> >infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
> >20-30 years under it's belt.
>
> Sorry, ya'll, I forgot about the quoting thing.
>
> I sed in relation to the above quote:
>
> I'm sorta weirded out right now. I've found all the tea merchants here
>
> and elsewhere to be such liars and fakers, that I am willing to believe
>
> that there is such a small amount of tea that's even older than 10
> years old left, that it barely ever goes on market. You have no idea
> how many times I've been told "this tea is x" years old even by
> merchants that I've dealt with. So far, I've only found one guy that
> doesn't lie to much, and most of his tea kinda sucks.
>
> I've stored 2 boxes of Menghai Fang Cha for 2 years and it's decently
> smooth now. What the hell, right? I don't consider myself to have
> more knowledge than anybody else when it comes to Pu'er, but this has
> really got me thinking how much can we really trust.
>
>
> Reply Rate this post: Text for clearing space

I've been wondering about this same thing. The Chinese tea industry in
this area was never organized and controlled like the French wine
industry. Then a lot of the factories seem to have started recently.
I'm reluctant to try something expensive without a lot of confirmation
that I'm actually getting what I thought I was based on the merchant's
ads.

Maria

[Maria on upstart Pu'erh factories]
> I've been wondering about this same thing. The Chinese tea industry in
> this area was never organized and controlled like the French wine
> industry. Then a lot of the factories seem to have started recently.
> I'm reluctant to try something expensive without a lot of confirmation
> that I'm actually getting what I thought I was based on the merchant's
> ads.

Hi Maria,

Here's my tourist advice: Climb the *second* highest mountain, visit the
*second* most famous city, hang out awhile. That's it. Why? Because, from
the secnd highest peak, you have a spectacular view of the highest, and all
the other tourists are crowded together in their tour groups well away from
you. Likewise, the city advice. Likewise tea, perhaps.

Michael

Mydnight, that is a surprise, don't you trust your tastbuds? Or have
you been jaded by the unscrupulous vendors on your travels? A vendor
can tell you that his tea is 10 years or older but from the look of
the tea you can judge roughly its age, or brew it to tell if it worth
that old. Try Hongkong or Macau next time when you get the chance to
go there from China on one of your weekends. You will learn a lot more
there.

Danny

2/15/06


>> How did you brew it? Try water around 195f and short, very short
>> infusions. Green puerh does not really become smooth until it has
>> 20-30 years under it's belt.
>
> I'm sorta weirded out right now. I've found all the tea merchants here
> and elsewhere to be such liars and fakers, that I am willing to believe
> that there is such a small amount of tea that's even older than 10
> years old left, that it barely ever goes on market. You have no idea
> how many times I've been told "this tea is x" years old even by
> merchants that I've dealt with. So far, I've only found one guy that
> doesn't lie to much, and most of his tea kinda sucks.
>
> I've stored 2 boxes of Menghai Fang Cha for 2 years and it's decently
> smooth now. What the hell, right? I don't consider myself to have
> more knowledge than anybody else when it comes to Pu'er, but this has
> really got me thinking how much can we really trust.

Mydnight, having a bad day, eh? Mike, whom you've quoted above, is *not* a
merchant and represents no market. I'm sure his use of the word "smooth" has
a specific meaning, and upon closer examination, we'll get clarification.

As for your proclamation about the availability of true Pu'erh over 10 years
old, let me say this: If you're right, I'm going to shoot myself.

Michael

Michael

>Mydnight, having a bad day, eh? Mike, whom you've quoted above, is *not* a
>merchant and represents no market. I'm sure his use of the word "smooth" has
>a specific meaning, and upon closer examination, we'll get clarification.

Get them guns ready because it's really difficult to find such tea.
I'm in China and right in the thick of things...I got friends all over
in the tea industry here, and most of them say to find real 10 year old
tea is not an easy thing to do. There are so many copies and copies of
copies that even most merchants aren't sure about what they have.

I know Mike isn't a merchant...where did it sound like I said he was?

2/19/06


>> Mydnight, having a bad day, eh? Mike, whom you've quoted above, is *not* a
>> merchant and represents no market. I'm sure his use of the word "smooth" has
>> a specific meaning, and upon closer examination, we'll get clarification.
>
> Get them guns ready because it's really difficult to find such tea.
> I'm in China and right in the thick of things...I got friends all over
> in the tea industry here, and most of them say to find real 10 year old
> tea is not an easy thing to do. There are so many copies and copies of
> copies that even most merchants aren't sure about what they have.

I'm wondering what we can glean from the taste. Isn't it possible, in your
opinion, to taste the age, at least in broad strokes? Or are you saying
that, while we can find old Pu'erh, we can't rely on the information we're
given in terms of who made it, or where it originally came from?
>
> I know Mike isn't a merchant...where did it sound like I said he was?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Something in the original post, I suppose.
Anyway, the reference is forever lost, so I acknowledge an error.

Michael
>

Get them guns ready? Haha. Hardly required. You need to know where
to look. Your friends all over the tea industry aren't being frank
with you then.

We should count ourselves lucky then, those who have some great old
teas to drink.

Danny

7.1422/14/06


> Hi all,
>
> I recently tried this cake, "2004 Mengku Wu Chi Dao Wild Large Leaf",
>
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4428079052>
>
> and was just a bit disappointed. I'd be interested if anyone else,
> especially one of the Pu-erh people, has tried it as well, and what their
> reactions were. My tastes are still developing. However, it wouldn't
> come as a terrific shock to learn, for example, that the reason the tea
> is described as "affordable" (is it really a good value for wild large
> leaf?) is because the factory isn't the best, or that 2004 was an
> off-year there, or it really wasn't aged enough, or what have you. (Of
> course, could be that I just prefer cooked...)
>
> My ignorance is formidable, and a knowledgeable response would be helpful in
> reducing it. :-) Thank you.

Ozzy, the cake looks beautiful in the pictures, and I am not afraid of all
that heavy stem, having come to know that stem can at times add a delicacy
otherwise absent. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about this tea's
taste profile, and describe what it was about the cake that disappointed
you? That would help, as based on the pictures, I'd buy one myself. Was it
for example fruit-like, flower-like, smokey, cigar-tasting, harsh/smooth,
leather-like, musty? Whatever.

A 2004 could well be most excellent, and many I'm drinking now are. Mengku
is, I believe, new, but well enough respected, having roots in Meng Hai --
am I wrong here, Mike? -- and further, "affordable" is what any young cake
should be, even those of good breeding.

Michael

snippage much

> A 2004 could well be most excellent, and many I'm drinking now are. Mengku
> is, I believe, new, but well enough respected, having roots in Meng Hai --
> am I wrong here, Mike? -- and further, "affordable" is what any young cake
> should be, even those of good breeding.

Let me self-correct he Wu Chi Dao is the factory, as everyone probably
knew but me, residing as it were in Mengku township. Good old Babelcarp:

<http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp2.cgi?phrase=Wu+Chi+Dao>

Michael

Michael Plant > writes:

> snippage much
>
> > A 2004 could well be most excellent, and many I'm drinking now are. Mengku
> > is, I believe, new, but well enough respected, having roots in Meng Hai --
> > am I wrong here, Mike? -- and further, "affordable" is what any young cake
> > should be, even those of good breeding.
>
> Let me self-correct he Wu Chi Dao is the factory, as everyone probably
> knew but me, residing as it were in Mengku township. Good old Babelcarp:
>
> <http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp2.cgi?phrase=Wu+Chi+Dao>

Thanks for the plug. I might as well take this opportunity to say the
evidence for Wu Chi Dao being a factory rather than a brand is just
the fact that Yunnan Sourcing, normally reliable, says so.

The evidence against it being a factory is that Googling for "Wu Chi
Dao Tea Factory" in Chinese yields no results. Googling for Wu Chi
Dao by itself in Chinese is kind of useless because the historic
meaning of the phrase is so prolific on the Web.

Puzzlingly, the picture of the cake on the eBay page doesn't have the
characters for Tea Factory. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the
subject, or just more Chinese, than I can help here.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

http://tinyurl.com/d89xh
was another discussion in RFDT of this cake by someone who liked it. I
second the request for your brewing times & temps and what you thought
of the flavors.

Jason F in Los Angeles wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/d89xh
> was another discussion in RFDT of this cake by someone who liked it. I
> second the request for your brewing times & temps and what you thought
> of the flavors.

Linky No Worky.

I was just cruising the net a week or so ago in search of some lower
priced Pu'er since it has been some time since I tried and gave up on
Pu'er and came across this same seller and almost bought. Would this be
a good starting point in Pu'er? I also would like to possibly have my
father get into Pu'er because his cholesterol and blood pressure etc.
could use some help.

- Dominic
Drinking: Shirakiku Brand Sencha.

darn it. search for "wu chi dao" using the
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea page and it comes up.

I haven't tried that particular puerh, but I have noticed that larger
leaf green puerh tends to be more mild and drinkable young than some
smaller leaf varieties. Even then, it varies. I found that the Green
Label organic cake from Six Famous Tea Mountain was good young, buttery
like having green tea and a croissant. I reviewed it on LJ he
http://community.livejournal.com/puerh_tea/6194.html , also milder and
easy to drink was the "Yi Wu Zhengshan" cake (CNNP?)
http://community.livejournal.com/puerh_tea/5468.html .

There are a couple of cakes I thought were difficult and bitter when
young, and if you or your father like the bitter flavors they would be
a good choice. Of course, shorter steeps and lower temps usually lead
to less bitter tea...so possibly any cake might be a good place to
start. Tuo cha is where most people start, and it seems to be the most
affordable. Anyway, http://community.livejournal.com/puerh_tea/ has
some of my and others' reviews if you care to look at them.

What I don't know is if the studies that support puerh's medicinal uses
for cholesterol/blood pressure focused on the effects of young green
puerh, cooked puerh, or aged puerh. I think pu-erh.net has a "medicinal
claims" page, but I haven't perused that particular batch of links yet.


Mike also lists some recommendations on pu-erh.net , too, and I always
think getting a few samples from Jing, Hou De, or wherever you can find
them is a good way to play the field and see what you would like more
of. In fact, I just received about 10 samples from Jing today and about
6 samples from Hou De last week. So far, Hou De's samples show they
lean towards more ageable (i.e. strong flavored and/or bitter) cakes,
but I really liked their "2004 6FTM Limited Yi Wu Zheng Shan Wild
Arbor" cake, which was so floral it was like having jasmine tea! I
think you can find it much cheaper on ebay from yunnansourcing, but
shipping is from china and can take a while, but Hou De ships from
Texas so if you're in the US you'll get it quick.

Anyway this is dragging so I'll stop.

~JFinLA

Correction...

It is "2004 Mengku Yuan Gu Wu Chi Dao Large Leaf Tea Hand Processing
Tea Factory"

The company's name is the one minus "2004". Wu Chi Dao was one of the
Tea-Horse route passing through Da Li, I'm not sure if it is still in
use though...

Danny

About your cake Ozzy,

Let it air for a month and try it again. It still has moisture trapped
in it, let the stale moisture dissipate before drinking.

Danny