Hi all,

As a person who loves to drink tea, I would like to hear from you about
the prices of tea and what prices suggest about the teas' qualities.

Recently I have become disturbed by how Starbucks labels its coffees as
"premium" coffees. But given that the costs of their coffees are at a
level that are not "premium", I feel that the use of the english
language is extremely "loose." Same applies to some of the tea
retailers that I see who sell their teas as "premium" at 2-4 dollars
for 3 ounces or 12 sachets. If that's premium than what are the teas
that are sold for at 15 dollars an ounce at places such as
rishi-tea.com, nalatea.com, thefragrantleaf.com, and
inpursuitoftea.com?

Of course if a tea is priced high does not mean that it is good or the
person drinking it will think that it is good. However, I would have
to say that there is a reason for the price differences. I have high
doubts toward teas being sold at such low prices.

I guess tea is tea and every kind of tea has its own respective
charctheristic depending on its growth environment (high elevation vs.
low, humidity vs. dry heat, etc.). This even means that low priced
teas have their own unique charactheristics that are appealing.

I guess my point is that to claim lower priced teas as premium or top
of the line teas can be misleading.

Any thoughts on this?

On Tuesday 28 March 2006 19:28, law2255 >
s.com>) wrote:

> As a person who loves to drink tea, I would like to hear from you about
> the prices of tea and what prices suggest about the teas' qualities.

Higher prices suggest better quality (or qualities) but they by no means
guarantee it.

> Recently I have become disturbed by how Starbucks labels its coffees as
> "premium" coffees.
> ...
>
> Any thoughts on this?

The word "premium" is devoid of meaning when used by marketroids.
McDonalds' sells "premium" salads, "premium" spicy chicken, and "premium"
coffee. A local store carries "ultra-premium" drinking water with "proven
better hydration" -- they're selling purified water in a plastic bottle,
nothing less and nothing more.

It's not related to tea. Any similarity between Marketing-Speak and English
is purely coincidental.

On 28 Mar 2006 18:28:28 -0800, "law2255" > wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>As a person who loves to drink tea, I would like to hear from you about
>the prices of tea and what prices suggest about the teas' qualities.

IMHO it greatly depends on the Vendor. I have become quite intimate
with various Chinese teas over the last several years. I know what the
prices are in the Tea Markets in China. What I see in the USA
"premium" loose leaf market, as a whole, is very little correlation
between price and quality. The sad truth is that prices are more often
a function of "what the market will bear" than they are of relative
quality. I have seen the exact same teas that cost less than $10 per
kg in China sell for anywhere from $30 to $200 per kg here in the US,
with the only difference being the name the Vendors give the tea. I am
not only talking about puerh, but regular old green and black teas
etc.

Typical US vendors will charge a 100% markup, however it is not
uncommon for the "Importer" to charge 400-500% markup over what they
paid in China. The further you get from the source the more layers of
markup are involved and the greater chance that someone along the way
long took more than a fair share of profit.

One reason that quality and price are not always hand in hand is that
in China the difference between a low, medium, or high grade tea is
often only a few dollars per kg. Say a high grade tea is imported by
a fair minded importer who simply marks the tea up 200% and the vendor
then marks it up 100%. Now say a lower grade of the same tea is
imported by a greedier importer who marked up the tea 300% and then
the vendor takes his 100% markup. In this case you could easily pay
more for the low grade than for the higher grade of the same tea.
Folks, this exact situation is NOT at all uncommon! Each additional
middleman between the China wholesale market and your vendor only
compounds the issue. Note, I am NOT talking about the ultra high
grades that are auctioned off for astronomical prices over there, very
little of that ever sees our shore lines.

Naturally many vendors do exist who strive to offer great teas at the
best price possible. The moral of this story is "know thy Vendor".
Select a Vendor that is as close to the Tea's source as possible, ie
China or India or Japan etc, wherever your particular tea comes from.
Get to know that vendor and his offerings. Educate yourself on what
"good quality" really is! Shop around for similar grades of the same
teas from other vendors. Do side by side tastings etc. Don't buy
blindly!

Know thy Vendor

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

As always Mike hits the bullseye on the subject!

>I feel that the use of the english
>language is extremely "loose." Same applies to some of the tea
>retailers that I see who sell their teas as "premium" at 2-4 dollars
>for 3 ounces or 12 sachets. If that's premium than what are the teas
>that are sold for at 15 dollars an ounce at places such as
>rishi-tea.com, nalatea.com, thefragrantleaf.com, and
>inpursuitoftea.com?

Yes the english language is "loose" but I have news for you, the
chinese language is even more "loose" sometimes when it comes to
tea!LOL

The bag versus the loose is an old question and always comes down to
which is better and is a matter for the most part of personal taste and
opinion. For me I prefer loose from a known vendor or grower because of
the method I prefer to prepare my tea. This is not to say I am a total
purist, I certainly have some favorite bagged teas that I use on those
"rushed" days when I only have time to throw it in the travel mug and
run.

But what exactly are you paying for in the bag versus in the loose is a
good question, Mike points out so well that most of our teas in the
states have at least a 100% mark up. Being involved with tea and tea
growers and growing for more than 30 years and involved in the major
auction markets of China, Taiwan, Sri Lanka and India, I can attest to
these mark ups. But are the mark ups always worth it?

Price does NOT always indicate quality tea, especially in the States.
Americans are kinda new to the tea world in many respects and very
naive to many things about tea

Like everything else in a capitalist market demand always drives price.
And keeping up with the Jones in the tea world is also true. Many of
my pu'erh friends MUST have only the best, not always because it is the
best, but because the price tag says it's the best.But like everything
retail, vendors must make money to stay in business. So 100 to 400%
markups are necessary to support the vendor.

I have an excellent friend who provides terrific quality teas in
Manhattan. I know he is at least 300% higher than another friend with
similar teas in Pennsylvania. But his mark up is because he is in
Manhattan and the real estate costs are what drive his markups.
Conversely I know a vendor in a little town in the USA where real
estate is very low as is cost of living but their prices are still a
300% mark up.

There are several "boutique" teabags that are served in those fancy
coffee shops that are just a tiny step above Lipton or Red Rose. Now
there is nothing wrong with Lipton or Red Rose. They are what they
are., mass manufactured for the masses creating a consistent cup of tea
though not perhaps a great cup of tea but for penneys a cup. But those
"boutique" teas are another matter often costing 3 to 4 dollars a cup
and offering little to justify the price.

>From the vendors, too often, price gouging is also occurring and again
demand is what is the driving force.

Now the flip side is this, a cheap price for say a high grade oolong or
West Lake Dragonwell or a 50 year old Guan Yun Gong Bing pu'erh cake
for $500 USD is also a serious problem and in this case you get what
you pay for. So a cheap price is also an indication to avoid tea just
as is overpriced tea. Knowing your market and tea is important and this
is why I think manufacturers like Lipton have survived unchanged for so
long. People in the states are not prone to taking time to learn about
something in depth but a serious tea drinker has to take the time to
learn the trade bascis.

As stated in Mike's post "know thy vendor" is excellent advice. Another
piece to add to that is if you don't know your vendor ask your friends
in tea for advice on vendor and their opinions on their dealings in the
tea market. There is great power in networking and a choir of voices.

Allen Miller

No vendor in his right mind is going to tell you his markup percentage.
You guess that number by comparison shopping. You can always find the
tea cheaper elsewhere. I think vendor support is more than bottom
line. When I order tea from my local tea shoppe I calculate the tea
costs 3 pennies for a $3 pot charged to cover his overhead. I found a
new Chinese vendor on Ebay from China whose English is good as Danny's
with good puer prices. He is in Shanghai so SAL is faster than
Kunming. However he has other items to sell which I think are
overpriced. I know I can get his LuiAn Gua Pian cheaper elsewhere.
But I'll get some on the next order for puer so he can ship it for
'free'.

Jim

humantenacity wrote:

> Another piece to add to that is if you don't know your vendor ask your friends
> in tea for advice on vendor and their opinions on their dealings in the
> tea market. There is great power in networking and a choir of voices.
>
> Allen Miller

Like me most growers and vendors I deal with aren't in their right
mind. Having been in the industry for over 30 years and having many
friends at all levels of the business most freely share their mark ups
with me. Of course. I agree with your position Cowboy most vendors
won't reveal their mark ups to the general public. But most vendors and
growers I deal with regularly tell me their wholesale prices, in part,
because I still buy from them and in part because they are giving me
face since they know I already know the wholesale and auction prices.

As for guessing a vendors mark up it isn't really too hard. Just look
where they are getting their tea and where they are selling it. As I
posted earlier, if you are selling tea in LA or Manhattan in the states
your mark up is going to be far higher than say Pittsburg, PA. Afterall
brick and mortar tea stores do have to pay their overhead costs.

Internet vendors are a bit more tricky but based on location,
complexity of site, size of inventory and quality one can still get a
good idea of the mark ups based on wholesale and recent auction prices.

Realizing that the Xi Hu Long Jing on Huang Zhou recently skyrocketed
to $900 USD per kg you can factor how much it is going to cost per gram
by the time it reaches you in your local market.

Allen Miller