Nice day!Every one!

Now,I get a foot in tea field and have a chance to meet various china
teas in my company.
One of our products are Artistic teas with their beautiful chinese name
full of poetry.For example,hanyanshijing stands for ten different
landscapes about a famous ancient showplace named Hanyan in Hangzhou
while dielianhua not only includes a scene full of affection,but also
make one engulfed deeply into the atmosphere of the ancient music of
song which is also named dielianhua.But how superficial usually their
english names are !Because some of them have already lost all of their
originally loveliness. When you see the name of "butterfly love
flower",what's your feeling of it if you are once moved by
"dielianhua"?Now there are many
new kinds of beautiful Artistic teas, whose chinese names are
charming, why not to add your
aptitude in order to make them famous around the world?I think maybe
someone of you would
help me to change this situation.Thank you very much in advance.

Here I give two names as below:
丹桂飘香；danguipiaoxiang,天山雪莲，tian shanxuelian,tianshanlotus
满å›*香；manyuanxiang

For your refference,you can email me for their images.

look forward to hearing from you.
Lily

> But how superficial usually their
> english names are! Because some of them have already lost all of their
> originally loveliness.

Hi Lily,

You are right, when you translate a lot of things into English, they
lose a lot of their meaning. Some things can't even be translated
properly at all, no matter how hard you try. And it's not the fault of
the translator, or bad English skills. It's just because of language
differences. The way you express things in Chinese may be quite
different than in English.

So basically, the only thing you can do is, just use the pinyin instead
of english. Then, explain what the terms in pinyin should mean in
English. And the description in english would probably be quite long,
if you want the readers to understand the full meaning.

Or, you could just provide a very simple translation in English that
doesn't catch the full meaning of the Chinese. But make sure what you
translate into English sounds good in English.

Hope that helps.

>Some things can't even be translated
>properly at all, no matter how hard you try. And it's not the fault of
>the translator, or bad English skills.

I beg to differ, our spammer queen. Lost meanings do occur because of
the different dynamics of two languages, but more often it is because
of the limited of vocabulary on the part of the translator. Isn't that
why you came here in the first place?

> I beg to differ, our spammer queen. Lost meanings do occur because of
> the different dynamics of two languages, but more often it is because
> of the limited of vocabulary on the part of the translator. Isn't that
> why you came here in the first place?

Actually, there is a lot of stuff in Chinese that just defies direct
translation into English. Chinese is a rich and ancient language,
contains a lot of metaphors and symbols that are just too darn hard to
translate properly into English - unless you provide extensive notes
and explanations. Certainly, in Chinese even, this is the case.

Maybe some of the time, it's the problem of the translator, but most of
the time, it probably isn't. And that is what she meant here. Not a
vocabulary problem at all, but one of difficult, complicated
translations.

Try translating some Cantonese operas into English and see how much
luck you have with that. You will soon realize that an English
translation is so superficial. And lacks the deeper meaning of the
Chinese.

I translate stuff for my Chinese friends all the time. Even though,
it's their job, but they still ask me to translate a lot of stuff. Kind
of tedious. But still interesting. And usually, I don't mind. And of
course, I never get paid for it either.

If someone is looking for some advice in translating some tea terms
into English - whether if it's for their work or whatever, there's no
problem with that. Just ask, and it can be done.

Anyway, it all serves one purpose, which is to expand our collective
knowledge, understanding and appreciation of Tea - no matter what side
of the globe we are on.

>I'm starting to buy Artisan teas from a vendor in Shanghai.

Actually, I've heard many people say that buying these teas can be
harmful to your health because they have to add certain things into the
teas when making them; plastics to hold the shape of the "seed pod",
dyes, etc. Most people I've talked to only view the teas and never
drink them. I mean, it is just a bunch of flowers.

>Actually, there is a lot of stuff in Chinese that just defies direct...

Yes, I know this already. Chinese does not translate into English 1:1.
I've just seen a lot of translations in my time here, and it's often
not the secret mysteries of the Chinese language that causes bad
translation; it's the translator's poor English and poor Chinese too.
To be a good translator, you have to be well versed in understanding
the deep structures and meanings of both languages. Not everyone can
do translation, and it takes years of practice to become a good
translator.

>Try translating some Cantonese operas into English and see how much
>luck you have with that. You will soon realize that an English
>translation is so superficial. And lacks the deeper meaning of the
>Chinese.

Cantonese doesn't even translate into Putonghua very well not even
considering English.

Anyway, I'm just tired of seeing people come here trying to cheat us
into buying their crap teas. I'm not interested into getting into any
kind of linguistics debate with anyone! heh.

RANT WARNING.

niisonge wrote:
> Actually, there is a lot of stuff in Chinese that just defies direct
> translation into English. Chinese is a rich and ancient language,
> contains a lot of metaphors and symbols that are just too darn hard to
> translate properly into English - unless you provide extensive notes
> and explanations. Certainly, in Chinese even, this is the case.

That strikes me as classic Orientalism. We Westerners can't penetrate
the inscrutable mind of the Oriental so why bother trying right?

There are two sorts of Chinese writing that are extremely difficult to
translate into English. One, very evocative or poetic writing. This
is of course the case between any two languages. It's not specific to
Chinese, and it doesn't really gain much of its complexity from the
secondary or historical meaning of Chinese characters that some people
tend to fetishize (i.e., 'ten thousand' used to mean 'scorpion').
Chinese in particular produces very dense poetry, the feeling of which
is almost impossible to evoke in English. If you've ever read
Shakespeare or Milton or Eliot in Chinese, you'd realize that the
problem is two-way, and is a feature of the difference between the two
languages, not of the mysterious essence of Chinese.

Two, ancient Chinese is very difficult to translate. This is because
even Chinese people do not agree as to what it says. I had several
translations of the Dao De Jing when I was in high school and I
marveled at the difference between them. Once I was able to read
Chinese, I bought a very good annotated copy and went over it with a
friend who was a Chinese lit major at Beida. Lo and behold, no one
agrees on what the first verse means! That makes it pretty hard to
render into another language.

But we're not talking about poetry or texts the meaning of which has
been lost in the mists of time. We're talking about the name of a
beverage. There's nothing tricky about translating that at all, is
there? Tieguanyin means Iron Buddha, or, if you want to give a little
more detail, Iron Guanyin, the merciful manifestation, right?
Fenghuang Dancong means Phoenix Single Bush. Maoxie means Hairy Crab -
I spoke with the guy at Silk Road who was bemoaning the fact that no
Americans want to buy tea called Hairy Crab, but oh well, that's what
it's called, right? There's no mystery to the name at all, is there?
No special properties to 'hairy' and 'crab' that derive from the
mysterious properties of the Celestial language that barbarians like
myself cannot hope to grasp. The stupid flower teas that this woman is
pushing are probably named "graceful fragrant lotus" or something like
that.

> Try translating some Cantonese operas into English and see how much
> luck you have with that. You will soon realize that an English
> translation is so superficial. And lacks the deeper meaning of the
> Chinese.

Actually I read Bawang Bie Ji in Chinese and English and I thought it
was translated quite well. There is nothing intrisically deep about
Chinese or intrinsically superficial about English, although, of
course, much of the poetry was lost from the original. See Shakespear
example above.

> I translate stuff for my Chinese friends all the time. Even though,
> it's their job, but they still ask me to translate a lot of stuff. Kind
> of tedious. But still interesting. And usually, I don't mind. And of
> course, I never get paid for it either.
>
> If someone is looking for some advice in translating some tea terms
> into English - whether if it's for their work or whatever, there's no
> problem with that. Just ask, and it can be done.
>
> Anyway, it all serves one purpose, which is to expand our collective
> knowledge, understanding and appreciation of Tea - no matter what side
> of the globe we are on.

I think what Myd is objecting to is that this group's purpose is the
one you elegantly summarized above, whereas Lily's purpose is to sell
low-grade products at high prices to people who don't know any better,
while shamelessly pretending to be their friend. As a foreigner who
has lived for long periods of time in China, I agree that this is
something of a national sport, and it's really offensive. She
certainly has the right to cheat people, but if she's seeking our help,
I see no reason not to point out what she's doing, both in the hopes of
awakening something like moral feeling in her and to protect someone
who might not know that she's tricking them. I don't think dishonest
business practices do much to advance learning, do you?

There is nothing mysterious about tea. It's just like wine or beer or
coffee or tobacco or choclate (except, tea is better). The only
difficulty is learning about it, and this arises from a language
barrier and dishonest sellers.

Alex wrote:
> That strikes me as classic Orientalism. We Westerners can't penetrate
> the inscrutable mind of the Oriental so why bother trying right?

Actually, it works both ways. There's lots of stuff in English that
seems to defy or is just too unweildy to translate into Chinese too,
but I neglected to mention it. Anyway, just watch any American movie
and read the Chinese subtitles at the same time. You will know what I
mean.


>not of the mysterious essence of Chinese.

It's not that Chinese is mysterious per se. But there are a lot of
things that just don't translate well into English - no matter how hard
you try. You could give a simple translation - which approximated the
original. But it would have lost a lot of the original meaning. And if
one were to give a full, thorough translation, it would end up being a
very long, convoluted, boring explanation. Not to mention, that you
need to have a thorough understanding of ancient and modern Chinese
culture before you could even attempt it. But fortunately, there are a
lot of books in Chinese that you can refer to for reference.

Even in Chinese tea books, written in Chinese only, it's the same.
Chinese authors cite other ancient books and quote from them to explain
fully some aspect of tea culture. And I always find that fascinating
and exciting.

It's not about Orientalism at all. The fact is, researching and
understanding some aspect of tea culture in Chinese is complicated even
in Chinese, and it leads you in all different directions, to all kinds
of ancient texts. So if it's already so complicated in Chinese, how
much more so would it be complicated in English? You know, few Chinese
books are ever translated into English. There are so many cool Chinese
books - ancient and modern that are totally unknown to the West. So
most Westerners, don't have a clue about what Chinese tea culture is
all about. I was the same way until I came to China for the first time.
But at least Chinese can read Chinese. And if they are so inclined,
they can read or study all kinds of stuff about tea - stuff that has
never been translated into English - yet. That's the one advantage
Chinese have over Westerners when it comes to learning about tea. It is
their mother language after all, and it is their culture.

The point is, if you're from the West, and speak only Western
languages, like English or Spanish, (which I both speak fluently), how
then do you expect to learn about Chinese tea culture when the vast
majority of information is written only in Chinese? You would need to
learn Chinese first to do it - unless someone provides you with a
well-researched, reliable English translation. So it's not about
Orientalism, the fact is, if you really wanted to learn about Chinese
tea, you need to learn Chinese and be able to read it well to know what
it's about. You can't rely on technology or web-translators for the
job. They're not accurate.

And I'm too lazy to think of some examples of Chinese where the English
translations are so superficial. But I always find many examples of
that. Anyway, never mind.


>As a foreigner who
> has lived for long periods of time in China, I agree that this is
> something of a national sport, and it's really offensive. She
> certainly has the right to cheat people, but if she's seeking our help,
> I see no reason not to point out what she's doing, both in the hopes of
> awakening something like moral feeling in her and to protect someone
> who might not know that she's tricking them. I don't think dishonest
> business practices do much to advance learning, do you?

Well, I'm living in China right now. And I have never met anyone yet
who has mistreated me, or tricked me or cheated me or been dishonest to
me - especially when it comes to tea. Of all the tea vendors and tea
professionals I know, they have all been quite honest with me. Some are
more knowledgeable about tea than others. And they are all eager to
learn more about tea. And they are grateful that a Westerner could come
and share tea with them. And they have always treated me kindly,
graciously, generously and with courtesy. I have made many many tea
friends here. And we are all richer for our shared tea experiences.
There's no nit-picking, no squabbling, no name calling, nothing like
that. Never seen any dishonest business practices here. They are all
very very helpful.

If I ask a tea vendor a question and they don't know the answer, I
don't fault them for that. They just don't know. Fair enough. Not
everyone knows everything about tea. Anyway, I can always ask someone
else who knows and get the answer. As one of my tea friends says, "Tea
is very deep. You can study it for a lifetime and never finish studying
it".

>Well, I'm living in China right now. And I have never met anyone yet
>who has mistreated me, or tricked me or cheated me or been dishonest to
>me - especially when it comes to tea

You must be living in a different China that I am. Every shop I visit
has had 10 year old shu pu going for 400-600 yuan that the shopkeep was
more than willing to let us try for nothing...

Are you sure they are as honest as you think they are? You know the
expression "3 faces, 3 knives" right?

Actually it's 3 knives, 2 faces

I think the difference between whether something is translatable and
something that is meaningful are two different things. We might not
agree on the meaning of the Daodejing, but that's because we don't
agree on what it says, not because we can't translate it.

As for Westerner buying tea from Chinese merchants and not being
cheated.... well, I am Chinese, and I have a feeling I'm cheated all
the time. Westerners often don't know they're being scammed.
Ignorance is bliss.

niisonge wrote:
> And I'm too lazy to think of some examples of Chinese where the English
> translations are so superficial. But I always find many examples of
> that. Anyway, never mind.

I think we're really both saying the same thing - that translating is
difficult - so I'm going to drop it. Obviously I don't agree about tea
merchants not screwing foreigners, but I don't think tea merchants are
any worse than any Chinese people that regularly do business with
foreigners, and I will say that I lived in Taiwan for two years and
only very rarely encountered these kinds of practices there.

I would love to hear your recommendations for Chinese books on tea
(especially oolong). I haven't seen any really good ones yet. BTW I
use the Wenge classics page all the time, thanks for posting that.

>Actually it's 3 knives, 2 faces

Actually, it varies from place to place. Around here, people say 3
knives, 3 faces. I've heard Northerners say your way, and Sichuan
people say it my way.

heh.

I agree with you MarshalN. There are many westerners who feel that they are
the target of malicous merchants, but these westerners fail to notice that
we chinese are equally liable to be ripped off by these malicious merchants
as well. Mydnight, please understand that racial discrimination does not
exist in many chinese regions - as long as you are human, you as much as I
are liable to be cheated by them.

The important thing is how much you know your stuff, not only in tea, but in
other things as well. You have labelled your students as utter lazy, and
being cheated most of the time when you go out in China; if this is so, why
are you still here? You should go somewhere where your pedagogical skills
are better appreciated, I'm sure there are other areas in Asia where they
will welcome you.

I have been doing a lot of translation for free, for anybody who cares to
find out, whether it is in Chinese or English; some of them are merchants,
some are just readers. The point I'm making here is that although I'm picky
about what I translate, I don't refuse. It is not my interest nor judgement
whether they are here for a free translation and then go on to cheat the
world. By making the translation available for all to read, we learn and
gain more insight into what is still to many, a barrier to a fuller
enjoyment of tea.

Danny


"MarshalN" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Actually it's 3 knives, 2 faces
>
> I think the difference between whether something is translatable and
> something that is meaningful are two different things. We might not
> agree on the meaning of the Daodejing, but that's because we don't
> agree on what it says, not because we can't translate it.
>
> As for Westerner buying tea from Chinese merchants and not being
> cheated.... well, I am Chinese, and I have a feeling I'm cheated all
> the time. Westerners often don't know they're being scammed.
> Ignorance is bliss.
>

>Mydnight, please understand that racial discrimination does not
>exist in many chinese regions

I'm going to say this and quit messing around with this thread because
it's sorta off topic by this point. I'm not doing the whole cut and
run away from a heated topic, mind you, I just want to talk about tea
more often.

Racial discrimination is as widespread in China as any other place in
the world. It exists in EVERY region to some varying degree. For
instance, around here most people, high and low educated, refer to
Africans as animals and continue to see all other foreigners as a
source of money for exploitation. I live in the Guangdong province.
If you want to dispute or argue this, come on down to lovely Dongguan
and I'll introduce you to many people that hate foreigners simply
because they are foreign. Is that not racial discrimination? I ignore
it and move on. Their ignorance doesn't bother me too much, but it
sometimes gets to me to be referred to as lao wai, gui lao, or mou gui
instead of human being.

Whatever wholesome picture of civility that you want to paint in my
mind about China, you may as well just give it up. But, don't get me
wrong; I love China. It's a country with thousands of years of rich
history and culture that various factions have done their best to
destroy in the past 50 years. I love the Western provinces such as
Sichuan, but unfortunately, you can't make a living out there.

>The important thing is how much you know your stuff, not only in tea, but in
>other things as well. You have labelled your students as utter lazy, and
>being cheated most of the time when you go out in China; if this is so, why
>are you still here? You should go somewhere where your pedagogical skills
>are better appreciated, I'm sure there are other areas in Asia where they
>will welcome you.

Let me guess. You are either in Shanghai, Hong Kong, or Beijing,
right? Are you even trying to pretend that you live in the same China
that the rest of us do? But, that's not the point. My students ARE
lazy which is also not the point. The point is that cheating is part
of business culture to some extent in this area. When I first started
messing around with tea actually in China, I was ripped off left and
right. I learned quickly that merchants can't be trusted, and I also
learned quickly the basic marketing pricing schemes that most merchants
follow. Needless to say, I'm not cheated too much anymore.

Why am I still here? I have made some wonderful friends, excellent
colleagues, and good business contacts that will benefit me in the
future. I have picked up a decent level of Mandarin, a low level of
Cantonese, some Hakka language, and a few other variants in my time
here. Each day is a new adventure.

Anyway, I like it. Why don't you move here so I can show you what I'm
talking about? heh.

>
> Why am I still here? I have made some wonderful friends, excellent
> colleagues, and good business contacts that will benefit me in the
> future. I have picked up a decent level of Mandarin, a low level of
> Cantonese, some Hakka language, and a few other variants in my time
> here. Each day is a new adventure.
>
> Anyway, I like it. Why don't you move here so I can show you what I'm
> talking about? heh.
>

heh right. Good that you have made some wonderful friends & excellent
colleagues. Move on and leave the merchants to their doings. heh.

Danny

> I would love to hear your recommendations for Chinese books on tea
> (especially oolong).

There are some tea books devoted to oolong tea. But I haven't bought
any yet. And I haven't read any of them. So I don't know if I could
recommend them.

Mydnight wrote:
> >I'm starting to buy Artisan teas from a vendor in Shanghai.
>
> Actually, I've heard many people say that buying these teas can be
> harmful to your health because they have to add certain things into the
> teas when making them; plastics to hold the shape of the "seed pod",
> dyes, etc. Most people I've talked to only view the teas and never
> drink them. I mean, it is just a bunch of flowers.

I have heard the same and have drank a few that I instantly picked up
an "off" taste from that was a chemical taste. I have also had a few
that were very good, but not mind-blowing. I think artisan teas are
just a novelty, nothing more nothing less. Generally a novelty that
ends up costing more than a high quality tea that produces a much
better brew.

FWIW the one that sticks out in my mind as having the chemical taste
was a lotus shaped lotus flavored green tea brought back from Bejing.

Also FWIW, I tend to find that the "elitest" or "Orientalism" stuff is
found mainly online/forums/NG's/etc. Most all
Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean/Japanese people I have met have been very
helpful and while they may be a bit wary of the large American who
attempts to speak their language and has a solid understanding of their
culture, food, and tea they quickly warm up to me. I'm sure some folks
who I genuinely thought liked me have ripped me off, but that is my
fault not really theirs. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle of the
debate (a rarity for me) I would be just as leary at first of a total
outsider and stranger trying to discuss and express their knowledge of
Italians, and our food and culture... but once I'd see they were
genuine I would be fine with it and flattered. People are people, I
don't think this is exclusive to the Chinese. Everyone likes to have
some national pride, and think that their culture is too deep and
difficult to share the full backstory on with an outsider who may not
understand or appreciate it the way we do. We sell $5 bottles of junk
Chianti at Italian restaurants for $25 to "outsiders" that we wouldn't
give to a dog... same difference.

- Dominic

I'll send an email to the Shanghai vendor and ask him what he knows
about artificial flavorings and color. It never occurred to me but I
thought at the most the 'natural' flower would add a little taste. For
example you can buy Jasmine and Osmanthus arrangements. My only
experience so far is a jar of Fairy Peach green tea from Chinatown.
However no flower appears when blossomed. It is one of my favorite
green teas from China with multiple infusions. The price wasn't bad
$10/170g for many pods.

Jim

PS Where there is tourism there is gouging. Ski slopes come to mind.
My favorite American ripoff Beer and Peanuts at a baseball game.

Dominic T. wrote:
> Mydnight wrote:
> > >I'm starting to buy Artisan teas from a vendor in Shanghai.
> >
> > Actually, I've heard many people say that buying these teas can be
> > harmful to your health because they have to add certain things into the
> > teas when making them; plastics to hold the shape of the "seed pod",
> > dyes, etc. Most people I've talked to only view the teas and never
> > drink them. I mean, it is just a bunch of flowers.
>
> I have heard the same and have drank a few that I instantly picked up
> an "off" taste from that was a chemical taste. I have also had a few
> that were very good, but not mind-blowing. I think artisan teas are
> just a novelty, nothing more nothing less. Generally a novelty that
> ends up costing more than a high quality tea that produces a much
> better brew.
>
> FWIW the one that sticks out in my mind as having the chemical taste
> was a lotus shaped lotus flavored green tea brought back from Bejing.

Hi, Lily. Your English is charming, and way, way, better than my
Chinese. I am the ignorant one. I appreciate that you speak for a
merchant, which you made clear at once. I appreciate your being
friendly and polite, which we Americans usually expect of our
merchants. There is an old English saying "Let the buyer beware" which
comes from the Latin "Caveat emptor." Both merchant and buyer always
understand this to be the case. I have three suggestions about your
advertising site: 1- Don't use the word "spit" in any name, as in "spit
pearls." 2- Don't use the term "bright red" about tea liquor; it would
mean the color of blood. 3-we really do need to know price and postage
about your teas, so we can compare. Toci
wrote:
> Nice day!Every one!
>
> Now,I get a foot in tea field and have a chance to meet various china
> teas in my company.
> One of our products are Artistic teas with their beautiful chinese name
> full of poetry.For example,hanyanshijing stands for ten different
> landscapes about a famous ancient showplace named Hanyan in Hangzhou
> while dielianhua not only includes a scene full of affection,but also
> make one engulfed deeply into the atmosphere of the ancient music of
> song which is also named dielianhua.But how superficial usually their
> english names are !Because some of them have already lost all of their
> originally loveliness. When you see the name of "butterfly love
> flower",what's your feeling of it if you are once moved by
> "dielianhua"?Now there are many
> new kinds of beautiful Artistic teas, whose chinese names are
> charming, why not to add your
> aptitude in order to make them famous around the world?I think maybe
> someone of you would
> help me to change this situation.Thank you very much in advance.
>
> Here I give two names as below:
> 丹桂飘香；danguipiaoxiang,天山雪莲，tian shanxuelian,tianshanlotus
> 满å›*香；manyuanxiang
>
> For your refference,you can email me for their images.
>
> look forward to hearing from you.
> Lily

i think through this whole conversation its been said, translation is
not easy. there are many factors. we can use literal, connotation or
the pingin (chinese). i do some translating/writiting and i do some
for tea and i also have to take in account how it sounds, because
someone will have to drink it...but i try to keep the meaning the same
or as close as possible, i dont expect people to know chinese... take a
look at some of our translations... i dont take credit for all of them
for many of them have been used before.
http://teaarts.blogspot.com/2005/10/...nthly-273.html
---icetea