Wow. Not what I was expecting. I have been wanting to pick up some Ku
Ding Cha for a month or so now, and this weekend I bought a box. Now I
knew it was going to be bitter, and I enjoy things like Guiness
Draughts and other similar drinks... but this was altogether different.
The bitterness hits you like a suckerpunch. It is supposed to have all
kinds of health benefits (which may or may not be true and not of much
concern to me either way) and I found out today that it really is not
tea at all but a sort of evergreen leaf.

Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
make it more palateable? I struggled to make it through about 6-8oz. of
it last night.

- Dominic
Drinking: Yunnan green Pu-Erh

use very, very little. if you bought the "spiral pole" shape, use 1-2
leaves per 6oz water.

otherwise, ick.

~bears³

Dominic T. wrote:
> Wow. Not what I was expecting. I have been wanting to pick up some Ku
> Ding Cha for a month or so now, and this weekend I bought a box. Now I
> knew it was going to be bitter, and I enjoy things like Guiness
> Draughts and other similar drinks... but this was altogether different.
> The bitterness hits you like a suckerpunch. It is supposed to have all
> kinds of health benefits (which may or may not be true and not of much
> concern to me either way) and I found out today that it really is not
> tea at all but a sort of evergreen leaf.
>
> Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
> make it more palateable? I struggled to make it through about 6-8oz. of
> it last night.
>
> - Dominic
> Drinking: Yunnan green Pu-Erh

"Dominic T." > writes:

> Wow. Not what I was expecting. I have been wanting to pick up some Ku
> Ding Cha for a month or so now, and this weekend I bought a box. Now I
> knew it was going to be bitter, and I enjoy things like Guiness
> Draughts and other similar drinks... but this was altogether different.
> The bitterness hits you like a suckerpunch. It is supposed to have all
> kinds of health benefits (which may or may not be true and not of much
> concern to me either way) and I found out today that it really is not
> tea at all but a sort of evergreen leaf.
>
> Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
> make it more palateable?

Yes: give it to your enemies.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Dominic T. wrote:
> Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
> make it more palateable? I struggled to make it through about 6-8oz. of
> it last night.

I finally got some as a generous gift from Kevin. Thought it was pretty
good, though not memorable. Kind of a saturation-bitter experience, like
strong quinine water (not G&T-grade tonic). People do seem to vary
greatly in tolerance for the bitter range; it may also increase with age.

-DM

Lewis 7/3/06

> "Dominic T." > writes:
>
>> Wow. Not what I was expecting. I have been wanting to pick up some Ku
>> Ding Cha for a month or so now, and this weekend I bought a box. Now I
>> knew it was going to be bitter, and I enjoy things like Guiness
>> Draughts and other similar drinks... but this was altogether different.
>> The bitterness hits you like a suckerpunch. It is supposed to have all
>> kinds of health benefits (which may or may not be true and not of much
>> concern to me either way) and I found out today that it really is not
>> tea at all but a sort of evergreen leaf.
>>
>> Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
>> make it more palateable?
>
> Yes: give it to your enemies.

Wow. Ugly!
Actually, you might enjoy the sweetness that
wells up after you've embittered your mouth
with this brand of holly. As for Ku Ding
Cha (not) being healthy, I am reminded of
ads for Buckley's cough medicine: It tastes
so bad, it's got to be good for you. (Buckley's
tastes like straight amonia.)
Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> Wow. Ugly!
> Actually, you might enjoy the sweetness that
> wells up after you've embittered your mouth
> with this brand of holly. As for Ku Ding
> Cha (not) being healthy, I am reminded of
> ads for Buckley's cough medicine: It tastes
> so bad, it's got to be good for you. (Buckley's
> tastes like straight amonia.)
> Michael

Heh, it is rough stuff. I did notice the sweetness behind the
bitterness in my third sip or so, but the initial bitterness kills all
pleasantness. It is a unique experience for sure, and one I'm not so
eager to do again. I gave some to my father, a bitter fan, and he stuck
a whole spike in his mouth as is... it didn't stay in long but I was
amazed it even possible.

I was only using 2-3 spikes per cup as per the instructions, but I
think I've had enough to know better now. This stuff would have to cure
male pattern baldness, while enhancing manhood by 4-6", while extending
my life by 20 years, while increasing my income by 200% for me to drink
it purely for the health benefits.

- Dominic

You seem to know a lot about Ku Ding, so I shall ask you: is Ku Ding
caffeinated?
(anyone else, feel free to jump in)

Also, my coworker bought some Ku Ding in Chinatown that smells like
jasmine. Is it common to scent Ku Ding wtih jasmine?

~bears³

Mydnight wrote:
> > Has anyone experiences this "wonderful" tea, and is there any way to
> > make it more palateable? I struggled to make it through about 6-8oz. of
> > it last night.
>
>
> Dom,
>
> With Kuding, there are many variables to consider. Firstly would be
> how fresh the tea is. If you are working with some tea that's too old,
> it can end up tasting like grass cuttings and vinegar. You also have
> to consider the amount of tea you are brewing and make sure not to use
> water that's too hot. Kuding is a green and should be treated as such.
>
>
> The flavor you are supposed to get is a slight bitter kick with a
> sweetness that follows and remains for a long time. Don't give up on
> it completely; there are other versions of the tea that are quite nice.
> My personal favorite, and it is a beautiful tea, is qing shan lv shui.
> It has all those "health benefits", the appearance will impress your
> friends, and they don't make it with plastic like the "beautiful art
> tea" that that hussy was trying to market us a month ago.

Jason F in Los Angeles wrote:
> You seem to know a lot about Ku Ding, so I shall ask you: is Ku Ding
> caffeinated?
> (anyone else, feel free to jump in)
>
> Also, my coworker bought some Ku Ding in Chinatown that smells like
> jasmine. Is it common to scent Ku Ding wtih jasmine?
>
> ~bears³

I'm no expert with it, but it is caffeine free since it is not true tea
but ilex which is of the holly family. This is my first attempt at it
so I can't say about the jasmine scent... although it couldn't hurt to
try to add some sort of pleasantness to it.

And @Mydnight

By no means am I giving up the ship on one tea, but damn is it hard to
want to go back for more I did use proper water temp and amount. I
have even experimented since then a few more times with basically the
same results. This tea was very fresh and of high-quality as it was
just unpacked by the owner whom I know. I'm sure there is better stuff
out there, but I don't think I'm going to extend much effort in hunting
any down. I'm not a big one for all the health benefits, I believe that
many ancient remedies have some truth to them but I don't go crazy
about it. I really was intrigued and have been for sometime by the
bitterness, I like bitter things and thought it would be something new
to try. I will look into the tea that you mentioned.

....also while searching through the archives I saw a funny quote about
Ku Ding from Michael Plant saying basically: Step 1: Set Ku Ding on
counter. Step 2: Boil water. Step 3: Throw away Ku Ding. Step 4: Drink
water.

Well stated

- Dominic

On 2006-07-05, Dominic T. > wrote:
> I'm no expert with it, but it is caffeine free since it is not true tea
> but ilex which is of the holly family.

Quite a few hollies, such as yerba mate, ku ding cha, and yaupon,
contain caffeine.

N.

I like Kuding! Probably the one infusion (after tea - beer - water)
that I'll go for. I just wish I could say I could find hot water
'anyway' I went anymore ... not even in bloody China can you get a
bloody thermos when you want one these days, and when working in
Hungary last week, the hotel had a (disguised - it took us a day ... )
minibar but no kettle ... otherwise, I'd be carrying with me a few
tuocha and a few sticks of kuding wherever I went ... um, having said
all that, my supply of qing shan lu shui looks like it will never
deplete (nor lose it's taste)

ps, took Georgian black and shuang jing lu to hungary but survived on
teabag earl grey and eng break (when lucky), wolf saliva and edelweiss

pps, Mydnight, please introduce me to the hussy ... I like beautiful
art, tea and plastic!

cheers all,

Immoral Hints of Cheese

I find it curious Kuding is on the shelves with the teas and not in the
herbal section. Even chrysanthemum is in the herbal section. It
stumped me that qing shan lu shui means 'green mountain green water'
but I got the two characters for green.

Jim

wrote:
> I like Kuding! Probably the one infusion (after tea - beer - water)
> that I'll go for. I just wish I could say I could find hot water
> 'anyway' I went anymore ... not even in bloody China can you get a
> bloody thermos when you want one these days, and when working in
> Hungary last week, the hotel had a (disguised - it took us a day ... )
> minibar but no kettle ... otherwise, I'd be carrying with me a few
> tuocha and a few sticks of kuding wherever I went ... um, having said
> all that, my supply of qing shan lu shui looks like it will never
> deplete (nor lose it's taste)
>
> ps, took Georgian black and shuang jing lu to hungary but survived on
> teabag earl grey and eng break (when lucky), wolf saliva and edelweiss
>
> pps, Mydnight, please introduce me to the hussy ... I like beautiful
> art, tea and plastic!
>
> cheers all,
>
> Immoral Hints of Cheese

Space Cowboy wrote:
> I find it curious Kuding is on the shelves with the teas and not in the
> herbal section. Even chrysanthemum is in the herbal section. It
> stumped me that qing shan lu shui means 'green mountain green water'
> but I got the two characters for green.
>
> Jim

I find it curious that anyone finds this palatable. I have now tried
multiple infusions with all kinds of variables tweaked, and even a
whole different brand of Kuding that is in a pearl shape rather than
the spikes. I can't enjoy it. I like bitter things too, so it is a
mystery to me how anyone can have an even greater tolerance for bitter
than me but it must be.

I have seen it sold in herbal sections at a few places, and I bought
mine from the caffeine free section of herbal/decaf teas and as I was
informed in this thread that it does contain caffeine. I haven't been
able to confirm 100% that it does, but I'm guessing I was wrong and
that it does. Maybe that is why other places do not sell it in the
herbal section, I could imagine a number of problems with selling it as
herbal.

This is certainly not my cup of tea.

- Dominic

Space Cowboy wrote:
> I find it curious Kuding is on the shelves with the teas and not in the
> herbal section. Even chrysanthemum is in the herbal section. It
> stumped me that qing shan lu shui means 'green mountain green water'
> but I got the two characters for green.
>
> Jim

I find that strange too. I've had it maybe ten times in China, and
there is a bag of it in my fridge, but no one told me that it wasn't
tea. I like the stuff, but it just never occured to me that it wasn't
just a particularly bitter variant of Camellia Sinesis. I'm finding
this discussion very disorienting.

My Kuding pearls is my only 'tea' that comes with a nutrition label:

Total fat .02g 1.00%
Sodium 1.2mg 6.85%
Total Carb 34.7g 9.3%
Hydroxybenzene 1.25g 25.00%

The above numbers tells me it was soaked in some kind of preservative.
Nice to know the government puts a cap on my daily crude oil derivative
intake. I guess no more licking my hands at the $3/gallon gas pump.

Jim

PS Maybe the same preservative for duck eggs some of which contains
lead.

Alex wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > I find it curious Kuding is on the shelves with the teas and not in the
> > herbal section. Even chrysanthemum is in the herbal section. It
> > stumped me that qing shan lu shui means 'green mountain green water'
> > but I got the two characters for green.
> >
> > Jim
>
> I find that strange too. I've had it maybe ten times in China, and
> there is a bag of it in my fridge, but no one told me that it wasn't
> tea. I like the stuff, but it just never occured to me that it wasn't
> just a particularly bitter variant of Camellia Sinesis. I'm finding
> this discussion very disorienting.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> My Kuding pearls is my only 'tea' that comes with a nutrition label:
>
> Total fat .02g 1.00%
> Sodium 1.2mg 6.85%
> Total Carb 34.7g 9.3%
> Hydroxybenzene 1.25g 25.00%
>
> The above numbers tells me it was soaked in some kind of preservative.
> Nice to know the government puts a cap on my daily crude oil derivative
> intake. I guess no more licking my hands at the $3/gallon gas pump.
>
> Jim
>
> PS Maybe the same preservative for duck eggs some of which contains
> lead.

mmm... now with extra Hydroxybenzene! I sure hope that is for the
entire box and not per serving. After hearing about spray-painted
mushrooms, and added lead for weight, and a bunch of other wonderful
additives to many Asian products I'm a bit more wary of what I buy. Few
things scare me more than my trip to the Indian grocery today at lunch
where in their newly remodeled store they were selling boxes of Brooke
Bond Taj Mahal tea from 1992. At least they weren't more expensive due
to the vintage. I explained to the owner how old these boxes were, and
he assured me they would be sold first since they were placed at the
front of the stack... as if that was an acceptable answer. Ugh. There
is something to be said for food standards and inspections after all I
guess.

- Dominic

You sure that's what it says? Hydroxybenzene is another name for phenol,
the first-identified antiseptic. It's a preservative, all right, but
that's approaching a lethal dose. Not that this helps unless one has
encountered it elsewhere, but phenol is quite volatile and has a
characteristic odor.

-DM

Space Cowboy wrote:
> My Kuding pearls is my only 'tea' that comes with a nutrition label:
> ... Hydroxybenzene 1.25g 25.00%
> The above numbers tells me it was soaked in some kind of preservative.

Since I saw you around I hoped this would catch your eye. The
number(s) are right. I doubled checked them before the post. They
apply to the recommended serving size of 5g. I would dismiss
everything as a misprint but I think I can taste the salt. The pearls
are 1g. I like the taste at 3g. I saw a link where organic
hydroxybenzene is a naturally occuring sweetner. I know the Chinese
are the masters of preservatives. I need to order some more Kuding and
see how the tastes compare. I describe the taste as bitter with no
real powerful aroma. This type of label is required for dietary
supplements. If Product of CNINA is mispelled maybe the lab chemist
meant to say PolyPhenol.

Jim

PS I ate one leaf and it taste so bad something had to be added.

DogMa wrote:
> You sure that's what it says? Hydroxybenzene is another name for phenol,
> the first-identified antiseptic. It's a preservative, all right, but
> that's approaching a lethal dose. Not that this helps unless one has
> encountered it elsewhere, but phenol is quite volatile and has a
> characteristic odor.
>
> -DM
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > My Kuding pearls is my only 'tea' that comes with a nutrition label:
> > ... Hydroxybenzene 1.25g 25.00%
> > The above numbers tells me it was soaked in some kind of preservative.

DogMa > wrote:
>You sure that's what it says? Hydroxybenzene is another name for phenol,
>the first-identified antiseptic. It's a preservative, all right, but
>that's approaching a lethal dose. Not that this helps unless one has
>encountered it elsewhere, but phenol is quite volatile and has a
>characteristic odor.

Is it being used as a preservative, or does it naturally occur in the
plant?

Carbolic acid/phenol/hydroxybenzene would definitely make it taste
distinctively unpleasant, and it is something that does occur naturally
in some plants.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Carbolic acid/phenol/hydroxybenzene would definitely make it taste
> distinctively unpleasant, and it is something that does occur naturally
> in some plants.
> --scott

As opposed to the distinctively unpleasant flavor that it _should_
taste like without the hydroxybenzene

- Dominic

Dominic T. > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Carbolic acid/phenol/hydroxybenzene would definitely make it taste
>> distinctively unpleasant, and it is something that does occur naturally
>> in some plants.
>
>As opposed to the distinctively unpleasant flavor that it _should_
>taste like without the hydroxybenzene

No, I am thinking that possibly the unpleasant flavour that it should have
might possibly be due to hydroxybenzine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Dominic T. > wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> Carbolic acid/phenol/hydroxybenzene would definitely make it taste
> >> distinctively unpleasant, and it is something that does occur naturally
> >> in some plants.
> >
> >As opposed to the distinctively unpleasant flavor that it _should_
> >taste like without the hydroxybenzene
>
> No, I am thinking that possibly the unpleasant flavour that it should have
> might possibly be due to hydroxybenzine.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Whoosh. Yeah, I know, I was joking around (that was why I had the
little winky emoticon) I meant since the stuff tastes terrible
normally, how would you know if it was worse or if something was wrong
Especially since a lot of poisons are bitter, you'd be SOL trying to
figure out if your Ku Ding was poisoned or clean. I find it pretty
unpleasant in its pristine form, in fact I think I may find drinking
bleach or hot antifreeze more enjoyable.

- Dominic

Space Cowboy wrote:
> Here is a chemical comparison of Kuding and Tea. There is no mention
> of hydroxybenzene or another form. Looking at the numbers only the
> abundance of flavonoids could account for the taste. It does answer
> the question that Kuding contains no caffeine. I assume my nutrition
> label must be wrong. I don't think a cup is that bad once in awhile.
> I've drank astringent greens I thought tasted worse.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/zvfk5
>
> Jim

Well, at least my silly little post about my bad time with Kuding Cha
has had some benefit. We confirmed that it is indeed non-caffeinated
and that is most certainly should not contain over 1g of hydroxybenzene
for every 3g of Kuding, I'm still hoping that is a misprint or grossly
miscalculated. In my own findings, I'm amazed that there are truly some
folks out there who would willingly drink this when there are so many
wonderful and intoxicating brews available. My entrance and exit from
the world of Kuding has been completed.

- Dominic

> Well, at least my silly little post about my bad time with Kuding Cha
> has had some benefit. We confirmed that it is indeed non-caffeinated
> and that is most certainly should not contain over 1g of hydroxybenzene
> for every 3g of Kuding, I'm still hoping that is a misprint or grossly
> miscalculated. In my own findings, I'm amazed that there are truly some
> folks out there who would willingly drink this when there are so many
> wonderful and intoxicating brews available. My entrance and exit from
> the world of Kuding has been completed.
>
> - Dominic

You should keep in mind the following before you pass total judgement:


1. His tea came in a box and is not fresh.
2. It's meant for export; which basically means no holds-barred.

You can get perfectly good Kuding around here without too many chemical
additives. I still recommend the qing shan lv shui. It's very nice at
small quanities.

Just a note on the "health benefits" of ku ding: like any Chinese
medicinal, it's good for you if you need it--that is, if your
constitution and/or medical condition make it appropriate for you.
Very few things are considered to have health benefits all the time;
this is part of the yin-yang aspect of TCM. Ku ding is bitter and
energetically cold. If you have a heat condition (like a flu with a
fever) it may be beneficial--depending on the condition. If you have a
cold condition, it'll not only taste like crap, it'll likely also make
you feel like crap (and possibly exacerbate whatever it is you're
trying to fix). Western alternative health maestros like Andrew Weil
seem to enjoy making universal prescriptions (everyone should drink
green tea, everyone should take selenium, everyone should eat broccoli,
whatever...). This, however, is generally not done in TCM--it's a bit
more subtle than that.

My 2 cents.

Mike


Dominic T. wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > Here is a chemical comparison of Kuding and Tea. There is no mention
> > of hydroxybenzene or another form. Looking at the numbers only the
> > abundance of flavonoids could account for the taste. It does answer
> > the question that Kuding contains no caffeine. I assume my nutrition
> > label must be wrong. I don't think a cup is that bad once in awhile.
> > I've drank astringent greens I thought tasted worse.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/zvfk5
> >
> > Jim
>
> Well, at least my silly little post about my bad time with Kuding Cha
> has had some benefit. We confirmed that it is indeed non-caffeinated
> and that is most certainly should not contain over 1g of hydroxybenzene
> for every 3g of Kuding, I'm still hoping that is a misprint or grossly
> miscalculated. In my own findings, I'm amazed that there are truly some
> folks out there who would willingly drink this when there are so many
> wonderful and intoxicating brews available. My entrance and exit from
> the world of Kuding has been completed.
>
> - Dominic