The up and coming trendiness of afternoon tea...Guardian article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1812756,00.html

Melinda

--
"I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows,
and Henry knows we know it."
We're a knowledgeable family." ::smiles:: -Geoffrey, Lion in Winter

Melinda,

A great article, thanks for linking it.

There's something beautiful about the counter-Starbucks culture
that's kicking in here. Now that Starbucks/CafeNero/etc. have hauled
coffee (or, at least, mainstream coffee) out into the utter wasteland
of McDonalds tastelessness, it's perhaps inevitable that there is a
counter-movement to rediscovering the delicacy and elegance of
afternoon tea. Though, of course, it never went away. It's merely
having the "poker treatment", in which high-profile individuals are
claiming allegiance to it.


My favourite paragraph from the article:

With the afternoon tea ritual, things are different. Tea is grown up.
It is slow and non-careerist and English. It is Alan Bennett and
Morrissey to coffee's Jessica Simpson. "Coffee doesn't have a ritual
attached to it, it doesn't have any of the lovely, 'Shall I be mother?'
stuff associated with it," says style-watcher Peter York, who is
partial to extended tea and millefueille afternoon teas at the Wolseley
restaurant, along from the Ritz in Piccadilly. "With coffee you want to
rush it. With tea you want to sit, you want the accompaniments, you
want to enjoy the long-drawn-outness, the community, the sharing out of
a pot, the rather childish, 'I'll halve my cake, if you halve yours'."


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

7/5/06


> Melinda,
>
> A great article, thanks for linking it.
>
> There's something beautiful about the counter-Starbucks culture
> that's kicking in here. Now that Starbucks/CafeNero/etc. have hauled
> coffee (or, at least, mainstream coffee) out into the utter wasteland
> of McDonalds tastelessness, it's perhaps inevitable that there is a
> counter-movement to rediscovering the delicacy and elegance of
> afternoon tea. Though, of course, it never went away. It's merely
> having the "poker treatment", in which high-profile individuals are
> claiming allegiance to it.
>
>
> My favourite paragraph from the article:
>
> With the afternoon tea ritual, things are different. Tea is grown up.
> It is slow and non-careerist and English. It is Alan Bennett and
> Morrissey to coffee's Jessica Simpson. "Coffee doesn't have a ritual
> attached to it, it doesn't have any of the lovely, 'Shall I be mother?'
> stuff associated with it," says style-watcher Peter York, who is
> partial to extended tea and millefueille afternoon teas at the Wolseley
> restaurant, along from the Ritz in Piccadilly. "With coffee you want to
> rush it. With tea you want to sit, you want the accompaniments, you
> want to enjoy the long-drawn-outness, the community, the sharing out of
> a pot, the rather childish, 'I'll halve my cake, if you halve yours'."
>
>
> Toodlepip,
>
> Hobbes\

Hi Hobbes!

Your logic is inarguable, except for the coffee: When
I drank coffee, I used a French press and a little
electric spice chopper/powderer. I carefully chose my
little coffee scoop, usually a wooden one made in Haiti,
and the mug I intended to use, usually one I had thrown
myself or one that had been thrown by a friend. I
arranged things on the counter, not to mention myself,
just right. And then, upon completion, I took my mug
to the livingroom to the coffee chair where I would
peruse the morning paper, coffee mug carefully placed
on the old crude milking stool that served as coffee table.
Lots of ritual, personal, and slowly developed over time.

But, alas, no more coffee for me. With tea of course I
get great pleasure out of doing things right, but I get far
greater pleasure out of doing it wrong; that is, allowing
my personal predilections to impinge upon the classic
styles I've taken so long to unlearn.

Michael

Michael /5/06


> 7/5/06
>
>
>> Melinda,
>>
>> A great article, thanks for linking it.
>>
>> There's something beautiful about the counter-Starbucks culture
>> that's kicking in here. Now that Starbucks/CafeNero/etc. have hauled
>> coffee (or, at least, mainstream coffee) out into the utter wasteland
>> of McDonalds tastelessness, it's perhaps inevitable that there is a
>> counter-movement to rediscovering the delicacy and elegance of
>> afternoon tea. Though, of course, it never went away. It's merely
>> having the "poker treatment", in which high-profile individuals are
>> claiming allegiance to it.
>>
>>
>> My favourite paragraph from the article:
>>
>> With the afternoon tea ritual, things are different. Tea is grown up.
>> It is slow and non-careerist and English. It is Alan Bennett and
>> Morrissey to coffee's Jessica Simpson. "Coffee doesn't have a ritual
>> attached to it, it doesn't have any of the lovely, 'Shall I be mother?'
>> stuff associated with it," says style-watcher Peter York, who is
>> partial to extended tea and millefueille afternoon teas at the Wolseley
>> restaurant, along from the Ritz in Piccadilly. "With coffee you want to
>> rush it. With tea you want to sit, you want the accompaniments, you
>> want to enjoy the long-drawn-outness, the community, the sharing out of
>> a pot, the rather childish, 'I'll halve my cake, if you halve yours'."
>>
>>
>> Toodlepip,
>>
>> Hobbes\
>
> Hi Hobbes!
>
> Your logic is inarguable, except for the coffee: When
> I drank coffee, I used a French press and a little
> electric spice chopper/powderer. I carefully chose my
> little coffee scoop, usually a wooden one made in Haiti,
> and the mug I intended to use, usually one I had thrown
> myself or one that had been thrown by a friend. I
> arranged things on the counter, not to mention myself,
> just right. And then, upon completion, I took my mug
> to the livingroom to the coffee chair where I would
> peruse the morning paper, coffee mug carefully placed
> on the old crude milking stool that served as coffee table.
> Lots of ritual, personal, and slowly developed over time.
>
> But, alas, no more coffee for me. With tea of course I
> get great pleasure out of doing things right, but I get far
> greater pleasure out of doing it wrong; that is, allowing
> my personal predilections to impinge upon the classic
> styles I've taken so long to unlearn.
>
> Michael
>
>


Hobbes,
Aha, you were quoting the article.
I was thinking those words were yours.
Sorry. Still stand by my response, though.
Michael

Sir!

I definitely agree with you when you write that coffee can be a
beautiful thing. I took care to go back and insert "mainstream coffee"
just because of that, actually! When it comes to taking it slowly,
doing it right, and enjoying some good bean, I'm definitely with you in
spirit.

There are two other points that you raise which really resonated with
something inside me.

The first was your mention of hand-thrown cups. I've been thinking
recently about the spirit of the tools and utensils that we use, while
I was sitting in a little riverside cafe in the Alps last week (trying
to avoid the French soccer fans, naturally, heh). They served a
darjeeling in teapots that they had made on the premises, and provided
little cups and saucers to match. They were totally uneven, wobbly,
patchily glazed, but boy did they feel good. There was a charm in the
spirit of that sunny evening, which made a slightly-above-average-tea
into a truly unforgettable drink, courtesy of the lovely teapot and
cups. I imagine that you get a similar thrill on a regular basis from
using your own (you lucky expletive).

When I do zazen, I do it on a cushion stuffed by myself, and sitting
on a mat made for me by my infinitely generous wife. The spirit of the
event is fresh, vital. The thrill of using hand-made tools, and using
them functionally, regularly is a wonderful thing. They infuse the
entire event with that thrill of the hand-made darjeeling pots. When I
consult the I-Ching, I throw yarrow stalks made for me by my
father-in-law, onto another little mat made for me by aforementioned
generous wife. Similar to the zen, and to the tea, it's a very special
thing.

That was my first thought on reading your post. My second one was
the beauty of human fallibility. You mentioned how you loved to see
your human imperfections impinge on the carefully-learned rituals and
processes. This spirit pervaids my entire belief in making tea. In
drinking coffee. In writing poetry, well, maybe in most things, and I
hope you'll permit me to indulge myself by exploring this a little more
with you, because it's a very fascinating thought.

Have you come across Basho, the Japanese poet responsible for some
very fine haiku (and in making the genre much of the way it is today)?
As I'm sure you already know, he told his students that "we must learn
the rules, and then forget them." I think that I must quote this to
the poor souls that I know on a biweekly basis. It's a very important
point, though, and resounds with your words.

His point, of course, was that we should first learn how to do
something properly. That is, really learn it. Do it over and over
again, study the books, learn from the teacher, emulate the master,
until you're capable of doing it "by the book", whether it be writing a
haiku about bamboo or making tea in the gongfu style. Then, forget the
rules, and do it subconsciously. Introduce that element of spontaneity
and human frailty that you allude to. Live in the instant, completely
aware (in the Zen sense), and don't *try* to do it - just do it.
Perhaps that's a bit Yoda: "do or do not, there is no try".

The result is, as you say, a wonderful thing. Processes that we have
learned to do "correctly", which then evolve around the personality and
capability of the practioner. This infuses every act with a charm, an
individuality, and a freshness that a stolid "follower of the rules"
can never quite achieve.

It's a satisfying conclusion, because all of these rigid processes
become the fluid consequences of fulfilling a regularly-performed
*function*, and that for me is the spirit of a good life: that it's
functions are elegant and fresh, but not contrived and studied.

Human fallibility is a wonderful thing.

I noticed a small chip in the underside of my favourite Yixing zisha
hu, and smiled to myself for exactly this reason: it was no longer
perfect, it was fallible, and that frailty had come about through being
used and loved in the pursuit of its daily function.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

> I drank coffee, I used a French press and a little
> electric spice chopper/powderer. I carefully chose my
> little coffee scoop, usually a wooden one made in Haiti,
> and the mug I intended to use, usually one I had thrown
> myself or one that had been thrown by a friend. I
> arranged things on the counter, not to mention myself,
> just right. And then, upon completion, I took my mug
> to the livingroom to the coffee chair where I would
> peruse the morning paper, coffee mug carefully placed
> on the old crude milking stool that served as coffee table.
> Lots of ritual, personal, and slowly developed over time.
>
> But, alas, no more coffee for me. With tea of course I
> get great pleasure out of doing things right, but I get far
> greater pleasure out of doing it wrong; that is, allowing
> my personal predilections to impinge upon the classic
> styles I've taken so long to unlearn.
>
> Michael

Melinda wrote:
> The up and coming trendiness of afternoon tea...Guardian article.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1812756,00.html
>

A delicious irony. I thoroughly enjoy a good afternoon tea, but were I
to take one today, I'd almost certainly drink coffee instead of tea.
Reason: I can make a better pot of tea at home than the hotel can, and
I rarely enjoy a good coffee these days, so would take advantage of it.

And about rushing coffee: I had an outdoor coffee today; a glorious
Sydney blue-sky day; Sydney Harbour Bridge to my left, Opera house to
my right; no rushing at all.

Cheers,
Gavin

HobbesOxon wrote:
> Human fallibility is a wonderful thing.
>
> I noticed a small chip in the underside of my favourite Yixing zisha
> hu, and smiled to myself for exactly this reason: it was no longer
> perfect, it was fallible, and that frailty had come about through being
> used and loved in the pursuit of its daily function.

I don't believe that the vast majority of these trendy new tea drinkers
understands much of anything, which is to be expected... but with tea
will not get them far and this will die out quickly. Coffee is quick
and gives a quick hit of caffeine, tea is none of that. I can;t tell
you how many people constantly inquire about my tea setup at work and
then proudly show me their "amazing" tea that I just have to try... and
it is a round republic of tea teabag or the mesh pyramid teabags from
Starbucks. To them, this is the pinnacle of tea... and they think it is
that I do not know about these teas and am missing out with "all the
work" I go through with my loose tea. While I kind of appreciate the
effort on their part, it just becomes frustrating.

As far as the Yixing, I proudly still use one of my teapots that has
had the bamboo shaped handle on the lid broken off. It gives it
character. I had the pleasure of seeing a womans Yixing teapot that was
handed down for hundreds of years in her family, and it actually seemed
alive. You could see and smell and feel the history and the travels and
the tea. It was battered and worn glass-smooth in other areas.

I would have no problem if folks just took a minute to attempt to
understand some history and insight as to what they are getting into.
As with anything though they will market the ultra-expensive junk to
gullible trendsetters, rake in the money and wait for the next big
thing. I grow and sometimes sell Bonsai trees and people are shocked
and astonished that I will refuse to sell them to them... if the person
has no clue or respect beyond buying the most expensive one to put on
their desk at work, I won't budge for all the money in the world. I
give them a list of books to read and get back to me in a year if they
are still interested. Surprisingly no one does.

- Dominic

Gavin wrote:

> A delicious irony. I thoroughly enjoy a good afternoon tea, but were I
> to take one today, I'd almost certainly drink coffee instead of tea.
> Reason: I can make a better pot of tea at home than the hotel can ...

Precisely why I almost never order hot tea in American restaurants.
However, in London, and for 35 pounds (64+ US dollars), the tea had
better be outstanding. If it isn't, the customers are being thoroughly
fleeced.

BTW, I am surprised there hasn't been more comment on the price.
For 64 USD, I can get a very good dinner in a very good restaurant
here in the US. It is mind-boggling that people wait in a 6-week
queue to pay that much for afternoon tea in London.


Randy

RJP wrote:
> Gavin wrote:
>
> > A delicious irony. I thoroughly enjoy a good afternoon tea, but were I
> > to take one today, I'd almost certainly drink coffee instead of tea.
> > Reason: I can make a better pot of tea at home than the hotel can ...
>
> Precisely why I almost never order hot tea in American restaurants.
> However, in London, and for 35 pounds (64+ US dollars), the tea had
> better be outstanding. If it isn't, the customers are being thoroughly
> fleeced.
>
> BTW, I am surprised there hasn't been more comment on the price.
> For 64 USD, I can get a very good dinner in a very good restaurant
> here in the US. It is mind-boggling that people wait in a 6-week
> queue to pay that much for afternoon tea in London.
>
>
> Randy

I would balk, but I got semi-willingly raped for over $40 at Teany in
my recent travels to New York. I knew what I was getting into
beforehand, and I was not expecting greatness.. but it was downright
terrible and so grossly overpriced it was insane. Teany is a small
(hence the name) tea shop/vegan restaurant owned by Moby (the
musician). They offer English style teas with scones, clotted cream,
etc. and the price is not far off from the one quoted above.

But I couldn't help but think of how much real tea I could buy for the
money I was spending on mid-grade tea improperly brewed at that. There
are a few English tea places near where I live and the one is always
packed for their Thursday afternoon tea which is $100 a person. It
amazes me, but people are willing to pay it.

- Dominic

> BTW, I am surprised there hasn't been more comment on the price.
> For 64 USD, I can get a very good dinner in a very good restaurant
> here in the US. It is mind-boggling that people wait in a 6-week
> queue to pay that much for afternoon tea in London.

It's a fair point, but that's the Ritz. It is the quintessential
English hotel, and one of the most famous eateries in the country. I
don't know how to translate it into American. It's high price, but
it's not a fleecing. In the famous London hotels, you can definitely
get what you pay for.

Hotels for the English have traditionally formed part of our cultural
subconscious. They're not (just) places that you'd go to spend the
night (not that I could afford to stay in one for very long!), but
they're more meeting-places, beautiful places, elegant places. They're
a piece of the Old World preserved and enriched through generation
after generation of use by people who want that little bit more.

I'm sure that they attract the common vulgar celebrity type who wants
to flash their money around, but they're also more than that, which is
why we love them: they're genuinely and sincerely good places to be.

N.b. That's not to say that they won't rip you off. They're just
businessmen. But, on the whole, you can pay a lot of money and expect
a great deal for it. The service and the environment are as good as
the quality and preparation of the products. You're certainly paying
for the name, but for a little slice of heaven once in a while... I'm
not averse to it.

No doubt there are people who have had bad experiences, and I expect to
read a barrage of such replies (heh), but you can get ripped off
anywhere. Like every place in the known world, you have to be careful
with your money - "a fool and their money are soon parted", after all -
but, in general, the London hotels are quite trustworthy. They
wouldn't still be here after all those centuries if they weren't, on
the whole.

London hotels are a part of the English Establishment, and I'm very
happy that they're still with us.

Now if only I could afford to enjoy them more often...


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

7/5/06


>
> Gavin wrote:
>
>> A delicious irony. I thoroughly enjoy a good afternoon tea, but were I
>> to take one today, I'd almost certainly drink coffee instead of tea.
>> Reason: I can make a better pot of tea at home than the hotel can ...
>
> Precisely why I almost never order hot tea in American restaurants.
> However, in London, and for 35 pounds (64+ US dollars), the tea had
> better be outstanding. If it isn't, the customers are being thoroughly
> fleeced.
>
> BTW, I am surprised there hasn't been more comment on the price.
> For 64 USD, I can get a very good dinner in a very good restaurant
> here in the US. It is mind-boggling that people wait in a 6-week
> queue to pay that much for afternoon tea in London.


Randy, isn't waiting in a six week queue for afternoon tea
antithetical to the tea beast?
Michael

Anyone here notice if some of their shu puer taste like coffee? I've
got some that the newest Juan Valdez would hide on his pack mule. I
don't drink coffee anymore period. My only fluid intake is tea and an
occasional glass of water. I drink iced tea at the restaurants. On
the road I travel with a box of tuocha. I can always find a cup of hot
water. I don't have anything against coffee perse or soda or any other
beverage.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> When I drank coffee...

Wow, I just read that Moby's joint charged you $40 for a hopeless
afternoon tea. I can only say that:

1. I would have done the same in your position, to try it out and see
what all the fuss was about.

2. I would have drawn the conclusion that he's fleecing his customers,
trading only on his name. There's simply no excuse for shoddy cakes,
bad tea, inelegant surroundings.

I should also point out that the difference between a pop-star's cafe
and the Ritz is like comparing supermarket's own brand of teabags to
your favourite Oriental looseleaf. Moby has absolutely no business in
charging anything near a London hotel, excepting a clear desire to make
money out of the gullible.

(Where I would define gullible to be people who go there more than
once!)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

HobbesOxon wrote:
> Wow, I just read that Moby's joint charged you $40 for a hopeless
> afternoon tea. I can only say that:
>
> 1. I would have done the same in your position, to try it out and see
> what all the fuss was about.
>
> 2. I would have drawn the conclusion that he's fleecing his customers,
> trading only on his name. There's simply no excuse for shoddy cakes,
> bad tea, inelegant surroundings.
>
> I should also point out that the difference between a pop-star's cafe
> and the Ritz is like comparing supermarket's own brand of teabags to
> your favourite Oriental looseleaf. Moby has absolutely no business in
> charging anything near a London hotel, excepting a clear desire to make
> money out of the gullible.
>
> (Where I would define gullible to be people who go there more than
> once!)
>
>
> Toodlepip,
>
> Hobbes

Oh, no, I'd classify it as gullible. Don't be afraid to call a spade a
spade, you won't hurt my feelings. I knew full well what I was getting
into, except for the fact that I really had thought they would be
serious about the tea... proper brewing temps, amount of tea, etc.
Heck, even just being able to order my pot of Pi Lo Chun by name
instead of getting a blank stare until I said "#29" would have been
nice. I knew it was all downhill from there. The lady next to me having
the $18 Tea and English Heinz baked beans on toast seemed to think it
was a wonderful time for two pieces of toast and two tablespoons of
baked beans... ugh.

While the Ritz is certainly a high-class affair, it is still all out of
whack with the real point of it all. There are quite a few high-brow
places to pay big bucks for an English tea, just like the place near my
house... they have a great place and the food is very good... but
honestly $100 (or even just $64) for a cucumber sandwich, a scone, and
some Earl Grey is a bad deal no matter how you slice it in my eyes. The
whole point is a nice informal tea, to make it formal and expensive
just for the sake of doing so is lame IMO.

- Dominic

HobbesOxon wrote:
> Sure, it does sound silly to pay $60something for tea and sandwiches
> when you put it like that - but you're not just paying for high quality
> goods at the hotels I mentioned.
>
> My only suggestion would be to go and have a look around one of these
> places, and talk with the staff. It's a beautiful place, and it's a
> refreshing change to have witty, polite service (at least in England!).

Oh, I'm aware of what is all involved, I just find it a bit to
high-brow for me personally and even at a lower price it would not suit
me. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it, just that for
me tea is a peaceful and tranquil basic indulgence. I'd be happier to
have a more standard English tea at a home where it is more personal.
But that is just me. To me the journey is the goal.

> But, getting back to the main point, I'm very happy that the profile of
> tea drinking has been raised. We all do it, here, but it's nice to see
> that the gentrified, genteel version is becoming popular again.
>
> Not because I'm on a crusade for everyone to know lots about tea (which
> would be wonderful, however unlikely it is), but because I'm happy that
> people are holding up the ideal that it is a good thing to be elegant,
> and to enjoy something slow-paced and delicate.

But this is my problem. It won't be slow-paced and personal, or even
slightly enlightening. When something becomes trendy and hip, it loses
that grounding. It becomes the exact opposite of what it is.

> I don't know if you're familiar with English culture at the moment, but
> it can be quite rough. Children will swear and curse at strangers, and
> even threaten them with violence. There are currently campaigns
> underway from the UK Government called "Respect", to try and get people
> to be more polite to one another. As our country grows into the modern
> world, it is vitally important that we don't lose the good manners and
> politeness for which we are (or at least used to be) famous for.
>
> You see good manners in certain sections of the population, but the
> "common man" is now tending more towards unruliness and poor manners
> than was previously acceptable. Against that background, I'm genuinely
> happy to see people rediscovering the afternoon tea rituals that have
> been neglected by most of the population.
>
> Anything that helps the majority of the populace regain a little of
> their polite and genteel heritage is fine by me. Certainly, not
> everyone is going to be taking $60 afternoon tea in the Ritz, but the
> revival in the public consciousness is very welcome.
>
> I like it when people slow down, enjoy themselves, and each other.
> Leave the Starbucks to the McDonald-munching junky, and look for the
> finer things in life, I'd say to them.
>
>
> Toodlepip,
>
> Hobbes

Unfortunately that is a problem everwhere, respect, intelligence,
thoughtfulness, hope, and real enjoyment of life is in short supply and
getting shorter and to some extent almost a negative thing these days.
I read an article the other day that summed up the current outlook on
life, it was titled "How to retire by 30." The entire article was about
getting a degree and working in a high-pay, long hour, job with no
personal satisfaction while living in an efficiency apartment and doing
nothing else even going so far as to state that dating and marriage as
well as children are off limits while suffering for 10 years so that
you can then retire... What do you have to retire to at this point
then? What will you reflect on for the next 40+ years? That is pitiful,
but exactly what the common outlook on life is. To some extent I'm
stuck in the same kind of thing, as most are, like it or not.

Priorities are all messed up. It would be nice to hit a collective
reset button to go back to a simpler existence. Brewing and enjoying
tea is as close as I can get to that, along with being outdoors,
hiking, camping, kayaking, fishing, etc... People have lost their
grasp of what is real, and important, and grounded in life, that is why
I find it sad and disheartening. They will buy their "premium" tea and
brew it in their "premium" teapots while wearing their "premium"
clothes and sitting on "premium" furniture and go through the empty
motions but miss the real beauty that is right in front of them that
could show them a whole new way of life.

- Dominic

In article .com>,
RJP > wrote:
>Precisely why I almost never order hot tea in American restaurants.
>However, in London, and for 35 pounds (64+ US dollars), the tea had
>better be outstanding. If it isn't, the customers are being thoroughly
>fleeced.

Two exceptions I will made: The Blue Talon restaurant in Williamsburg, VA,
and Legal Seafood in Boston. The only two places I have actually had good
tea in a restaurant in the US.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Two exceptions I will made: The Blue Talon restaurant in Williamsburg, VA,
> and Legal Seafood in Boston. The only two places I have actually had good
> tea in a restaurant in the US.
> --scott
>
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Not to go more OT, which I'm good at, but while I was in NYC we ate
Peking Duck at Mr. Tangs and they served a pretty good Pu-Erh as the
restaurant tea. The manager was pretty impressed that I picked up on it
instantly, and I was pretty impressed that they had a real tea and well
brewed.

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> Not to go more OT, which I'm good at, but while I was in NYC we ate
> Peking Duck at Mr. Tangs and they served a pretty good Pu-Erh as the
> restaurant tea. The manager was pretty impressed that I picked up on it
> instantly, and I was pretty impressed that they had a real tea and well
> brewed.

Wait. How is it he didn't instead get a lot of people saying,
"didn't I ask for tea?"

--Blair

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> Dominic T. wrote:
> > Not to go more OT, which I'm good at, but while I was in NYC we ate
> > Peking Duck at Mr. Tangs and they served a pretty good Pu-Erh as the
> > restaurant tea. The manager was pretty impressed that I picked up on it
> > instantly, and I was pretty impressed that they had a real tea and well
> > brewed.
>
> Wait. How is it he didn't instead get a lot of people saying,
> "didn't I ask for tea?"
>
> --Blair

Heh, I thought the same thing. That is a pretty bold move, I'm not sure
if it was because we were there later in the evening or not. The only
other people in the restaurant were having a huge 12 course meal fit
for kings and they seemed to be friends with the owner and manager so
that may have been why they had good tea and we just reaped the
benefits by dumb luck. I don't know, but I was just as surprised as
anybody.

- Dominic

Jenn wrote:
> BTW do people take their own teas to restaurants?

I never have, but others have posted that they've done that.

Bringing a T-Sac might help.

--Blair

"Gavin" > wrote in message
ups.com...

snip

> A delicious irony. I thoroughly enjoy a good afternoon tea, but were I
> to take one today, I'd almost certainly drink coffee instead of tea.
> Reason: I can make a better pot of tea at home than the hotel can, and
> I rarely enjoy a good coffee these days, so would take advantage of it.
and snip

> Cheers,
> Gavin
>

I can definitely understand that comment...I know for a fact I maker better
tea (to my taste) at home than out. For one thing, if it's at a coffee shop
I get it in a paper cup which changes the taste right there. It's usually in
a teabag and even the silk ones or the ones that hang over the edge of the
cup change the taste for me. My theory is that it's too little tea in too
much water (usually 12 ounces) and the milk isn't right, the temp isn't
right...and the loose tea they are starting with is probably not the best
either, or the storage of it.

I will say the one good cuppa that I was eternally grateful to find was a
strong Irish Breakfast blend out of (yes I know but it really was good) a
hot pot dispenser (that was only for tea!!) at that English Muffin place in
Seattle (The Crumpet Shop?) I actually COULD drink a few cups of that and it
tasted good. And they had mugs. It's just a little hole in the wall place
but that's what I'm talking about when I want a cup of reinforcing tea.
Their smoked salmon on an english muffin was pretty good too..

Even in gourmet coffee houses, where they obviously spend a lot of attention
on the taste and quality of their coffee, I see tea really done carelessly.
I got coffee from an independent coffee house this weekend, and they had
tea..."pan-fired" green tea (how's that for generic?) in a clear glass jar
up on a shelf, in 100 degree weather. It's things like that that make it
impossible for me to have tea out...I don't want to throw away my money. It
still feels like tea drinkers are second class or afterthoughts here in the
US. If a shop is going to offer tea they should care enough to do it right,
even if they don't have tons of choices. For someone who is a true tea
drinker, the trendy and flash isn't going to do it. I find myself being so
picky when I go out and see the tea selections...

And as for having "formal tea" out...for me personally the tea with little
sandwiches and doilies thing is really something I want very rarely. I also
have trouble making myself pay $5 for a pot of tea out that is just not that
spectacular. I haven't had the opportunity to visit a real gung fu
establishment though, I think that would probably be a lot better. Has
anyone been to ITC's tea shop, and what did they think?

Melinda

Dominic T. > wrote:
>Not to go more OT, which I'm good at, but while I was in NYC we ate
>Peking Duck at Mr. Tangs and they served a pretty good Pu-Erh as the
>restaurant tea. The manager was pretty impressed that I picked up on it
>instantly, and I was pretty impressed that they had a real tea and well
>brewed.

I ate dinner at Danny Ng's restaurant in NYC not long ago (which incidentally
is highly recommended), and when I asked about tea was told they served
Bo Nay. I said that I didn't like pu erh and wondered if we could get a
red tea, but was told that bo nay was different than pu erh. And the tea
was indeed a mid-grade pu erh. Not to my taste although you might want to
try it (and you should definitely try the handmade noodles).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> I ate dinner at Danny Ng's restaurant in NYC not long ago (which incidentally
> is highly recommended), and when I asked about tea was told they served
> Bo Nay. I said that I didn't like pu erh and wondered if we could get a
> red tea, but was told that bo nay was different than pu erh. And the tea
> was indeed a mid-grade pu erh. Not to my taste although you might want to
> try it (and you should definitely try the handmade noodles).
> --scott

Yeah, Bo Nay is just Cantonese for Pu-Erh (Mandarin) although I
sometimes have seen Bo Nay mean a mixture of Chrysanthimum and Pu-Erh.
I've only seen it served alongside Dim Sum at one restaurant near
Pittsburgh (besides the Pu-erh at Mr. Tangs). I didn't like the
Chrysanthimum version.

Of all the things to miss about NYC, it is mainly the wonderful variety
of food that has me wanting to go back. Forget the tourist sites, and
the glitz, I'd be happy to stroll through Chinatown or Central Park for
entertainment and try to eat at every restaurant in NYC. I'm still mad
I didn't get to eat at the Argentinian Steakhouse in Queens, I think it
was called Boca Juniors. Thanks for mentioning homemade noodles, now
I'm hungry and my wonderful lunch of Domino's pizza is seeming woefully
inadequate.

- Dominic

Scott /6/06

> Dominic T. > wrote:
>> Not to go more OT, which I'm good at, but while I was in NYC we ate
>> Peking Duck at Mr. Tangs and they served a pretty good Pu-Erh as the
>> restaurant tea. The manager was pretty impressed that I picked up on it
>> instantly, and I was pretty impressed that they had a real tea and well
>> brewed.
>
> I ate dinner at Danny Ng's restaurant in NYC not long ago (which incidentally
> is highly recommended), and when I asked about tea was told they served
> Bo Nay. I said that I didn't like pu erh and wondered if we could get a
> red tea, but was told that bo nay was different than pu erh. And the tea
> was indeed a mid-grade pu erh. Not to my taste although you might want to
> try it (and you should definitely try the handmade noodles).

Bo Nay/Bo Li is Cantonese for Pu'erh. Danny's people are full of it.
BTW, when I walk into a Chinese restaurant in Chinatown, if the
ratio of Chinese faces to others among the clientele is too low, I
turn around and walk out. I also turn my back on table cloths. Yup,
a bunch of Caucasians eating on table cloths is a definite Chinese
restaurant turn off. And while we're on the subject, any restaurant
that makes it into the tour books is definitely OUT. Look for the
ducks hanging in the window and the old guys reading newspapers.
Smile and point at what you want. On the other hand, if you think
offal is awful, think twice.

Michael

Michael

Melinda wrote:
> And as for having "formal tea" out...for me personally the tea with little
> sandwiches and doilies thing is really something I want very rarely. I also
> have trouble making myself pay $5 for a pot of tea out that is just not that
> spectacular. I haven't had the opportunity to visit a real gung fu
> establishment though, I think that would probably be a lot better. Has
> anyone been to ITC's tea shop, and what did they think?
>
> Melinda
Dear Melinda,
I dont think I'd like the cucumber sandwiches and doiley thing much
at all. The place I told you about earlier Fandangos tea room, would be
great! If the tea was good. I dont mind paying more for a good pot of
tea served right. They have it going in the right direction, tho. I
have given some teas of mine to the owner, but he cant afford the
"better teas" and the clientele here in hot humid tropical south Texas
is an Iced tea or tisanes lovers dream place. Or flavored hotgreens ect
mango tea,oolong was weak and tasteless, no puer. BUt... its a start.
and they are the only place on town that serves lose tea in glass
teapots, ot looose tea at all. Even the Chinese rest have oolong or
jasmine 3rd quality teabag on a large pot that holds too much water for
the tea. You need 6 or more teabags for that!
Now I heard of a gung fu place in the DC area that sounded like a dream
come tru for chinese tea drinkers. Anyone else heard about it?
Jenn

Jenn > wrote:
>
>Now I heard of a gung fu place in the DC area that sounded like a dream
>come tru for chinese tea drinkers. Anyone else heard about it?

I don't know of any such place. You have any other info?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

> Jenn > wrote:
> >
> >Now I heard of a gung fu place in the DC area that sounded like a dream
> >come tru for chinese tea drinkers. Anyone else heard about it?
>
> I don't know of any such place. You have any other info?

That would probably be Ching Ching Cha in Georgetown. I wouldn't call
it a dream come true, but it could be a lot worse. See for yourself,
Scott!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Michael Plant wrote:

> .... I also turn my back on table cloths. Yup,
> a bunch of Caucasians eating on table cloths is a definite Chinese
> restaurant turn off.

Michael, you mean these Caucasians weren't cursing and spitting bones?

The Boston area is wonderful in all ways, from relaxed pace and
intellectual humility to simplicity of street navigation and mild,
predictable weather. We are, however, a little short on decent tea
purveyors in leaf and brew. And all the usual complaints about
intransigence and equipage of Asian restaurant staff apply. Hence the
pleasant surprise reported here.

My favorite Chinese restaurant hereabouts (no vested interest; in fact,
I'm not sure I ought to be promulgating this intelligence) is Royal East
on Main St. I've been eating there since it opened around 1985, while
laboring next door for a now-defunct imaging company that got started
coating the crystallized urine of quinine-fed dogs onto plastic sheets
to make sunglasses. (Would I lie to you?) Later, it became the only
venue mutually agreeable to the disparate tastes of my entire family
during the extended psychodrama of our reunions.

In the past few years, I've gotten to know the owner/founder, Otto,
fairly well if superficially. (He even recommended an outstanding and
underpriced traditional Chinese doctor/bodyworker nearby, one of whose
credentials is that he treats a notable rock star when the latter is in
town.) But we never got into matters of religion until recently.

A few months back, I asked about the ranks of well-seasoned Yixing pots,
metal canisters, trays and other implements of mass consumption arrayed
around the bar. Otto said that he's equipped for serious tea tastings,
but declines to put this offering on the menu. Americans get upset at
having to *pay* for tea, people don't know what real tea tastes like,
etc. He apparently serves the good stuff regularly to a few
knowledgeable customers, but won't offer it. I threatened to bring some
of my own favorite teas if he'd share a cup, and he accepted.

Today I had the pleasure of visiting Royal East with Corax, in town for
an convention on something-or-other to describe which I lack sufficient
classical education - he can fill in over on http://chadao.blogspot.com,
perhaps with pix. Otto kindly agreed to come in a couple of hours before
dinner to meet us. So Corax and I arrived early and lunched on a very
nice trio of spicy pork with peanuts, garlic beef and baby bok choy with
whole fried garlic cloves. Waving off the usual pitcher, we got a pot of
hot and threw in a chunk of 2001 YiWu Zhen Shan wild tree shu Puer from
Fu Hai (via Yunnan Sourcing), which made a nice balance for the strong
and varied food flavors. This decided me never to go to a Chinese
restaurant again without my own tea - life's too short.

Otto arrived as we were plowing into this bounty. He complimented our
tea, then came back with a 20-year-old shu of his own. After a couple of
steeps of this in a porcelain pot, we brought out one of the new Tea
Gallery Lung Jings. He admired the tea's freshness and leaf shape, then
produced a package of West Lake he'd just received from Hong Kong. This
was excellent, and a nice contrast to the two Puers.

At this point, we'd consumed most of the vittles, so Otto had the table
cleared and brought out full Gong Fu regalia. Since his own favorite
tipple is Tie Kuan Yin, we had a fairly rarefied one of these (up in the
$500/lb range) that he'd just had sent from a family friend's plantation
in the old country. With the TKY he brought a couple of exquisite books
on master tea pots and tea-making from his large collection. Over the
next few steeps, we got some useful insight and humorous anecdotes on
the Chinese numbered-factory Yixing teapot production system, and the
challenges of buying even medium-quality merchandise without an inside
connection.

After that, we went on to three from Silk Road Teas: an unusual, (to me)
seaweedy oolong from their "Special" collection called Guo Jiang Xiang
No.2, a year-old but still terrific Songzhong dan cong, and their
delicate but powerful Drum Mountain Clouds & Mist; the latter impressed
him enough to ask for a sample. Early on in this round, Otto got hungry
too, so Corax and I were forced by politeness to endure a second lunch
of pea tendrils and cold chicken with an aromatic dressing of freshly
chopped ginger and scallions. The chicken bears special mention: looked
pretty mundane; cold boiled chicken on a bare plate. But one assumes
that the boss of the best restaurant around gets OK treatment from his
staff, and in fact the bird was extraordinary: not only cooked
perfectly, but with about thrice the flavor of any other chicken I've
tasted. Turns out that for this dish - like many wonders not on the
menu,including the pea tendrils; always worth asking a waiter about
specials - he sources unusual ingredients, here a little-known French
strain. (But to strain the rara avis concept to the limit, he said that
we should call ahead next time for double-steamed black chicken, an even
more unusual subspecies with white feathers and dark skin, like unto a
polar bear. Who knew?)

While I fondled the Yixings, Corax collected the Chinese names with
Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciations for tea, equipment, procedures and
ethereal attitudes; I'll let him report as only a gastronomic
philologist can.)

There may be two salient lessons here. One is that there is great tea,
tea service and tea conversation available in (great?) restaurants, but
apparently the Tao Te Ching is as relevant to fine tea as to all else:
those who advertise don't always deliver, and those who deliver don't
always advertise. The other is that despite a truly ab-initio
relationship with this fine establishment and its owner, my relationship
and experience there have experienced a step-change upward as a result
of asking about tea. A salutary event indeed. May you have such fortune.

-DM

DogMa wrote:
> The Boston area is wonderful in all ways, from relaxed pace and
> intellectual humility to simplicity of street navigation and mild,
> predictable weather.

Ah, it's a comedy post.

--Blair