Hello and Thank You
 

Hello,

Just wanted to say hi. I've been lurking on this group for a while now
and have found you people to be incredibly knowledgeable and helpful
on all things tea related. I've only just jumped into the whole world
of decent tea within the last year or so, so I've needed plenty of
help figuring out how to tell night from day. Between the FAQ and
daily posts, I can't even begin to tell you how much I've learned.
I've been taking things slowly, making my way through the blacks
first, am starting to get my feet wet with greens (dragonwell...where
have you been all my life?!), and then I think I'll cast off into the
wild, wild world of pu-erh. It's getting so bad that I just bought a
Zojirushi, and I'm sure I'll have to get a gawain set follwed by a
decent yixing pot or two. Damned if this habit isn't fun and rewarding
though.

Anyhow, to make a long story longer, thank you, and keep up the good
work!

Warbler

Welcome!
 

Welcome, Warbler!

It is an addiction, beware - the slope is slippery and steep. :)

With that said, if you haven't come across the following resources,
they are, like this excellent newsgroup, each very good sources of
regularly-updated information that I like to read regularly:

The Pu'er LiveJournal:
http://community.livejournal.com/puerh_tea/

The Cha Dao Blog:
http://chadao.blogspot.com/

The Tea-Disc Yahoo Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tea-disc/messages


The vendor sites are often very informative, my favourite of which a

Jing:
http://www.jingteashop.com/

Hou De:
http://www.houdeasianart.com/

TeaSpring:
http://www.teaspring.com/

Yunnan Sourcing:
http://stores.ebay.com/Yunnan-Sourcing-LLC


Two other great sites for general information a

Pu'er.net
http://www.pu-erh.net/

Babelcarp:
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp2.cgi


I should add that I have no affiliation to any of the above, short of
being a regular reader/poster on some of the fora.

I'm sure that there are many other recommendations from others that you
will find useful! Have fun. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Hello and Thank You
 

Throat Warbler Mangrove wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Just wanted to say hi. I've been lurking on this group for a while now
> and have found you people to be incredibly knowledgeable and helpful
> on all things tea related. I've only just jumped into the whole world
> of decent tea within the last year or so, so I've needed plenty of
> help figuring out how to tell night from day. Between the FAQ and
> daily posts, I can't even begin to tell you how much I've learned.
> I've been taking things slowly, making my way through the blacks
> first, am starting to get my feet wet with greens (dragonwell...where
> have you been all my life?!), and then I think I'll cast off into the
> wild, wild world of pu-erh. It's getting so bad that I just bought a
> Zojirushi, and I'm sure I'll have to get a gawain set follwed by a
> decent yixing pot or two. Damned if this habit isn't fun and rewarding
> though.
>
> Anyhow, to make a long story longer, thank you, and keep up the good
> work!
>
> Warbler

Welcome Warbler,

It's always my standard to suggest a read through Okakura's "Book of
Tea" especially since it is available free online:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/769 ... the actual book will only set
you back $4 at a book store though.

My other suggestion is to not worry so much about categories of tea at
first. Buy a few of each, and they can be lower quality tea bags from
an Asian/Indian market even. A few Assam's, Darjeeling's, Blacks,
Greens, Oolongs, and even a couple cheaper Pu-Erh tuo/mini tuo. Then
don't think too much and just try them each, you will find that you
gravitate towards certain ones naturally. Then delve into those areas a
bit deeper and then you can really appreciate the better quality teas
and what it is that you enjoy.

Personally I enjoy greens, but I also can get into some oolongs and
pu-erh and occasionally I'll go for a DJ, Assam, or black. My tastes
change with the seasons and sometimes with my moods, and they will most
certainly change over time.

Best of luck, and most importantly Enjoy!

- Dominic
Drinking: Brewing some Young Hyson as I type.

Welcome!
 

"HobbesOxon" > writes:

> Welcome, Warbler!
> [...lots of links...]
>
> Babelcarp:
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp2.cgi

Thanks for the plug, Hobbes, but the URL you cited is subject to
change. The permanent URL for my Chinese tea term translator service
- did I say *permanent*?! - is below, in my sig.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Hello and Thank You
 

Throat Warbler Mangrove wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Just wanted to say hi.

Hi Warbler, and welcome. How do you like your Zoji? I love mine. You
have a long and fascinating road ahead of you, enjoy the journey and
let us know if you have any questions along the way. Let us know what
strikes you as you progress.

_____
Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Hello and Thank You
 

Mike Petro wrote:
> Hi Warbler, and welcome. How do you like your Zoji? I love mine.

Mike or Warbler,

What exactly are you referring to? Zojirushi makes all manner of
things, I'm guessing maybe an electric kettle or some such. I own a
beautiful Zoji 10-cup rice cooker that I would fight to the death for.
The reason I ask, is that I have been looking for an electric kettle
for my office and I'm planning on getting a basic cheapie Procter/Silex
one but if Zoji makes a good one that is reasonably priced I may
splurge.

- Dominic
Drinking: The afore-mentioned Young Hyson and enjoying myself greatly :)

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Dom, you probably know this, but make sure you get one that actually
*boils* the water. Many American models do not, and so aren't really
suitable for oolong. I have a Chinatown special called a Kamjove in my
office that is really great.

Dominic T. wrote:
> Mike Petro wrote:
> > Hi Warbler, and welcome. How do you like your Zoji? I love mine.
>
> Mike or Warbler,
>
> What exactly are you referring to? Zojirushi makes all manner of
> things, I'm guessing maybe an electric kettle or some such. I own a
> beautiful Zoji 10-cup rice cooker that I would fight to the death for.
> The reason I ask, is that I have been looking for an electric kettle
> for my office and I'm planning on getting a basic cheapie Procter/Silex
> one but if Zoji makes a good one that is reasonably priced I may
> splurge.
>
> - Dominic
> Drinking: The afore-mentioned Young Hyson and enjoying myself greatly :)

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Alex wrote:
> Dom, you probably know this, but make sure you get one that actually
> *boils* the water. Many American models do not, and so aren't really
> suitable for oolong. I have a Chinatown special called a Kamjove in my
> office that is really great.

Actually, I mainly drink greens so the cheapie one is sufficient for my
main needs at work even if it doesn't reach a perfect boil (which it
claims it does). I do have access to a "Hot Shot" which produces very
hot boiling water for Pu-Erh or an Oolong if I need, but this was more
just for on my desk to be small and easy.

- Dominic

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

> I have a Chinatown special called a Kamjove in my
> office that is really great.

I have a Kamjove, too, and it's rather fab. Recommended: good control,
good materials.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Alex wrote:
> Dom, you probably know this, but make sure you get one that actually
> *boils* the water. Many American models do not, and so aren't really
> suitable for oolong. I have a Chinatown special called a Kamjove in my
> office that is really great.

Kamjove is what most teashops use here. If you can get one of those,
you are doing good. I think the Chinese name is "hailei" or something.
I have two of them here in my house. One in the sitting room and one
in the tea room.

Hello and Thank You
 

On 2 Aug 2006 08:03:22 -0700, "Dominic T." >
wrote:

>
>Mike Petro wrote:
>> Hi Warbler, and welcome. How do you like your Zoji? I love mine.
>
>Mike or Warbler,
>
>What exactly are you referring to? Zojirushi makes all manner of
>things, I'm guessing maybe an electric kettle or some such. I own a
>beautiful Zoji 10-cup rice cooker that I would fight to the death for.
>The reason I ask, is that I have been looking for an electric kettle
>for my office and I'm planning on getting a basic cheapie Procter/Silex
>one but if Zoji makes a good one that is reasonably priced I may
>splurge.
>

Hi Dominic,

I have owned two Zoji kettles, the larger 5L one (maintains 175, 195,
208 or boiling) can be seen at
http://www.pu-erh.net/toolfull.php?Tool=12 and the smaller newer 2.2L
one (maintains 140, 195, 208 or boiling) can be seen at
http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts...ts/cd_fac.html

They both maintained the stated temps very precisely and they both
would achieve a full rolling boil. They can be made to maintain at
208 and then boil within a minute at the push of a button. Choose your
model based on the most common lower temp you would regularly use. The
newer (smaller) model has firmware that is marginally better. They are
not perfect, but damn close. I wish that you could dial in any
specific temp you desired, but you are limited to the three temps
supported by whichever model you choose. Like the rice cookers, they
are also not cheap, eBay had the best prices.

I am glad to hear you like their rice cooker as I have been
considering one myself. Which model do you have. What features did you
find important.

The Kamjove from China was also mentioned. That was my first real
kettle and it burned up on me in just under a year. The contacts in
the base literally melted down and burned up. Until that happened I
loved it for black puerhs that steeped at the boil, but you could not
maintain lowers temps automatically on any model I saw.

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

Welcome!
 

Thank you! Looks like I have some reading to do. I'm particularly
excited about that Yunnan Sourcing link you posted. Yunnan's have been
my go to black tea for a while now.


On 2 Aug 2006 01:34:29 -0700, "HobbesOxon" >
wrote:

>Welcome, Warbler!
>
>It is an addiction, beware - the slope is slippery and steep. :)
>
>With that said, if you haven't come across the following resources,
>they are, like this excellent newsgroup, each very good sources of
>regularly-updated information that I like to read regularly:
>
>The Pu'er LiveJournal:
>http://community.livejournal.com/puerh_tea/
>
>The Cha Dao Blog:
>http://chadao.blogspot.com/
>
>The Tea-Disc Yahoo Group:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tea-disc/messages
>
>
>The vendor sites are often very informative, my favourite of which a
>
>Jing:
>http://www.jingteashop.com/
>
>Hou De:
>http://www.houdeasianart.com/
>
>TeaSpring:
>http://www.teaspring.com/
>
>Yunnan Sourcing:
>http://stores.ebay.com/Yunnan-Sourcing-LLC
>
>
>Two other great sites for general information a
>
>Pu'er.net
>http://www.pu-erh.net/
>
>Babelcarp:
>http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp2.cgi
>
>
>I should add that I have no affiliation to any of the above, short of
>being a regular reader/poster on some of the fora.
>
>I'm sure that there are many other recommendations from others that you
>will find useful! Have fun. :)
>
>
>Toodlepip,
>
>Hobbes

Hello and Thank You
 

Thanks again everyone!

Hello and Thank You
 

I just purchased the 4 liter version:

http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts...ts/cd_lcc.html

Like the 5 liter Mike is describing, the temp. settings are 175, 195,
208, and boiling. I was going to go for the 2.2, but I figured that I
didn't want to have to refill it too often, and I wasn't sold on the
145 setting. I figure if I'm steeping a decent green, I'll just pull
out the old thermometer.

I did a little research and the going rate for the 4L is about $150,
while the 2.2 is about $110 (in the US anyhow). Pricey, yes, but I
think it will pay for itself in regards to the time I will save.

I haven't actually had time to read through the manual or set it up
yet, but I'll be happy to report back once I do.

Cheers,
Warbler


On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:34:57 -0400, Mike Petro >
wrote:

>On 2 Aug 2006 08:03:22 -0700, "Dominic T." >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Mike Petro wrote:
>>> Hi Warbler, and welcome. How do you like your Zoji? I love mine.
>>
>>Mike or Warbler,
>>
>>What exactly are you referring to? Zojirushi makes all manner of
>>things, I'm guessing maybe an electric kettle or some such. I own a
>>beautiful Zoji 10-cup rice cooker that I would fight to the death for.
>>The reason I ask, is that I have been looking for an electric kettle
>>for my office and I'm planning on getting a basic cheapie Procter/Silex
>>one but if Zoji makes a good one that is reasonably priced I may
>>splurge.
>>
>
>Hi Dominic,
>
>I have owned two Zoji kettles, the larger 5L one (maintains 175, 195,
>208 or boiling) can be seen at
>http://www.pu-erh.net/toolfull.php?Tool=12 and the smaller newer 2.2L
>one (maintains 140, 195, 208 or boiling) can be seen at
>http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts...ts/cd_fac.html
>
>They both maintained the stated temps very precisely and they both
>would achieve a full rolling boil. They can be made to maintain at
>208 and then boil within a minute at the push of a button. Choose your
>model based on the most common lower temp you would regularly use. The
>newer (smaller) model has firmware that is marginally better. They are
>not perfect, but damn close. I wish that you could dial in any
>specific temp you desired, but you are limited to the three temps
>supported by whichever model you choose. Like the rice cookers, they
>are also not cheap, eBay had the best prices.
>
>I am glad to hear you like their rice cooker as I have been
>considering one myself. Which model do you have. What features did you
>find important.
>
>The Kamjove from China was also mentioned. That was my first real
>kettle and it burned up on me in just under a year. The contacts in
>the base literally melted down and burned up. Until that happened I
>loved it for black puerhs that steeped at the boil, but you could not
>maintain lowers temps automatically on any model I saw.

Hello and Thank You
 

Mike Petro wrote:
> I have owned two Zoji kettles, the larger 5L one (maintains 175, 195,
> 208 or boiling) can be seen at
> http://www.pu-erh.net/toolfull.php?Tool=12 and the smaller newer 2.2L
> one (maintains 140, 195, 208 or boiling) can be seen at
> http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts...ts/cd_fac.html

I like the 2.2L model, I think I'm going to pick one of those up for
home and still get the cheapie Procter/Silex one for work. It uses and
immersion heater coil and has a number of automatic shutoff features
and safety stuff for $9.99 at the kitchen store next to me.

> I am glad to hear you like their rice cooker as I have been
> considering one myself. Which model do you have. What features did you
> find important.

This is the one I own:
http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts...rs/ns_rnc.html it is the
model: NS-RNC18 which is 10 cups. But they make a smaller 5.5 cup
model. My parents bought it for me as a gift some years back, but I
believe it was $130. It is actually a no-frills model (Cook and Warm)
and came highly recommended by a few restaurant owning friends. There
is no need for me to have any more controls or features as I have never
had a problem making any type of rice in it (jasmine, regular,
basmatti, brown, sushi, etc). I've heard mixed reviews of the
electronic ones, but you can't find one person to say something
negative about these. It has been in use for over 4 years straight and
is beyond perfect in every way, I seriously would kill a man if they
tried to take it.

- Dominic
Drinking: Ten Ren 2006 Lung Ching (minus oil slick with new spring
water)

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Damn, If my brother-in-law didn't have one at the wedding rehearsal
lunch. I was impressed considering it could boil 1.7L of water in no
time flat without blowing the copper fuses in a 100 year old house.
Here are the characters.

http://i5.tinypic.com/23ixamu.jpg
KWIC HaiLea KamJove(JinZao)

Jim

PS When I see interesting new Chinese tea references I'll try to dig
out the characters.

Alex wrote:
> Dom, you probably know this, but make sure you get one that actually
> *boils* the water. Many American models do not, and so aren't really
> suitable for oolong. I have a Chinatown special called a Kamjove in my
> office that is really great.
....Sopranos...

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Space Cowboy wrote:
> Damn, If my brother-in-law didn't have one at the wedding rehearsal
> lunch. I was impressed considering it could boil 1.7L of water in no
> time flat without blowing the copper fuses in a 100 year old house.
> Here are the characters.
>
> http://i5.tinypic.com/23ixamu.jpg
> KWIC HaiLea KamJove(JinZao)
>
> Jim
>
> PS When I see interesting new Chinese tea references I'll try to dig
> out the characters.

Jim,

Any idea about the "Jove" part? The character is interesting and seems
like it must have some direct symbolism, like a man near a cross. (I'm
guess it has no biblical relationship, but that was my initial
thought).

I always think it is interesting when someone points out the picture in
a character, and then I feel like an idiot when I swear I see a picture
and find out there really isn't one. Like is probably the case here. :)

- Dominic

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Dominic, the characters 金灶 mean 'gold stove' or 'gold hearth' and
are pronounced 'jinzao' in Mandarin. 'Kam' is an approximation of gold
in Cantonese, but I have no clue where they got 'Jove'. Any Cantonese
speakers out there?

By the way, the symbolism in 'zao' is actually pretty straightforward -
it's comprised of two characters, 火 huo meaning fire and 土 tu
meaning earth, so it's something made out of earth with fire in it.

Dominic T. wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > Damn, If my brother-in-law didn't have one at the wedding rehearsal
> > lunch. I was impressed considering it could boil 1.7L of water in no
> > time flat without blowing the copper fuses in a 100 year old house.
> > Here are the characters.
> >
> > http://i5.tinypic.com/23ixamu.jpg
> > KWIC HaiLea KamJove(JinZao)
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > PS When I see interesting new Chinese tea references I'll try to dig
> > out the characters.
>
> Jim,
>
> Any idea about the "Jove" part? The character is interesting and seems
> like it must have some direct symbolism, like a man near a cross. (I'm
> guess it has no biblical relationship, but that was my initial
> thought).
>
> I always think it is interesting when someone points out the picture in
> a character, and then I feel like an idiot when I swear I see a picture
> and find out there really isn't one. Like is probably the case here. :)
>
> - Dominic

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

You're suppose to recognize the 'radical' in each character which is
the starting point to look up the character in a Chinese character
based dictionary. The online Unihan dictionary uses 214 radicals.
Then you get to look down possibly 100's of characters based on the
radical. In either case it is easier if you recognize the stroke count
of the radical or the derivative. For me it is the brute force
approach. It's plain easier to ask someone who speaks the language in
this group. I'm in awe of bilingual people no matter the language. If
I was running a company everybody would be bilingual in something.

Jim

Dominic T. wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
...I delete me...
> Any idea about the "Jove" part? The character is interesting and seems
> like it must have some direct symbolism, like a man near a cross. (I'm
> guess it has no biblical relationship, but that was my initial
> thought).
>
> I always think it is interesting when someone points out the picture in
> a character, and then I feel like an idiot when I swear I see a picture
> and find out there really isn't one. Like is probably the case here. :)
>
> - Dominic

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Space Cowboy wrote:
> You're suppose to recognize the 'radical' in each character which is
> the starting point to look up the character in a Chinese character
> based dictionary. The online Unihan dictionary uses 214 radicals.
> Then you get to look down possibly 100's of characters based on the
> radical. In either case it is easier if you recognize the stroke count
> of the radical or the derivative. For me it is the brute force
> approach. It's plain easier to ask someone who speaks the language in
> this group. I'm in awe of bilingual people no matter the language. If
> I was running a company everybody would be bilingual in something.
>
> Jim

My dictionary goes by stroke count, so that is really all I use. I am
aware of the radical business, but I have yet to get into that heavily.
Mainly because I have predominently Korean friends, and Korean is a
whole nother animal. I actually got most of my love for languages from
my grandfather who spoke over 10 languages fluently. I can hang in 4 or
5, but none are Asian languages (English, Italian, Spanish, German, and
some Portugese). My Chinese, Korean and Japanese are solely centered
around basic greetings and tea/food... but what else matters? really :)
I can say "Hi" "How much?" "I'd like that" (knowing if it is chicken,
beef, pork, tofu, vegetal, dog, goat, or horse based) and a pot of tea,
and then "Thank You" and "Goodbye."

I think people who speak a couple languages are better grounded and
tend to have a bit more insight. I'm always amazed at European kids who
speak 3-4 fluent languages, when I've struggled to be capable in about
the same number for a lifetime. It is also the one thing I hated in
college (required to take 4 years of a language, to fluency) but am
eternally thankful for now as it has been the one thing I've used more
than anything from college. I mean I take derivatives of logarithms,
draw Euler trails and discuss the formation of human civilization along
the Nile daily too, doesn't everyone?

- Dominic
Drinking: Xiaguan Pu-Erh

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

If I were a college graduate, I'd transplant myself into an ethnic
community in this country, learn the language in about a year and go
abroad to make my fortune.

Jim

Dominic T. wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
....yada yada yada...
>
> I think people who speak a couple languages are better grounded and
> tend to have a bit more insight. I'm always amazed at European kids who
> speak 3-4 fluent languages, when I've struggled to be capable in about
> the same number for a lifetime.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Space Cowboy wrote:
> If I were a college graduate, I'd transplant myself into an ethnic
> community in this country, learn the language in about a year and go
> abroad to make my fortune.
>
> Jim

Funny thing is I basically think the exact same thing, and a few of my
friends have done this... but we normally think of it happening the
other way around. One is in Bhutan, and lives a year on what I spend in
a month. He also is living in some of the most beautiful surroundings
you could imagine, sure maybe not the most stable place in the world
but anymore almost nowhere is. One in Burma with almost the same story,
and one in Peru.

The lifestyles are simpler, slower, fulfilling, and while they give up
some of the creature comforts and luxuries they have lives I would love
to call my own. I think that more and more people will begin to do
this, as it makes sense and with the global economy it is easier than
ever. In fact I just saw a commercial the other day for Costa Rica
where they basically say to come and live/work there to get away from
the rat race, live comfortably on even basic savings, and in beautiful
surroundings. Not only will this be a boon for their economies but also
will eventually better distribute power and wealth and raise their
standards of living. So that like in places such as Thailand, you don't
have 13 yr. old boys who go off to fight in Muay Thai to support their
entire village.

Sorry, this is an area near and dear to my heart, I'm not trying to
stand on any soapboxes or "preach" just offer my thoughts and
experiences... I could go on for days on this subject... but I'll spare
y'all.
- Dominic

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Alex wrote:
> Dominic, the characters 金灶 mean 'gold stove' or 'gold hearth' and
> are pronounced 'jinzao' in Mandarin. 'Kam' is an approximation of gold
> in Cantonese, but I have no clue where they got 'Jove'. Any Cantonese
> speakers out there?

Well, the company is based out of Chaozhou, you know the Dan Cong
place, so if anything the kamjove name could have come from the
Chaozhou dialect. It is quite different from Cantonese and Mandarian;
also quite different from the Kejia and Fujian languages, but closer to
the Fujian language.

Besides this, often when Chinese companies choose English names for
their companies, they sometimes just randomly choose a word or follow
the pinyin from the Mandarian. Many times, the names are quite
inexplicable and meaningless. For instance, I know a guy that has a
shoes manufacturing factory and the English name for his company is LT.
That makes good sense because the factories name is "Li Tian"; meaning
something like powerful sky. heh. I know another guy that has a tires
trading company that named his company Haibo going along with the
pinyin in Mandarian; also makes good sense. But, I know a lady that
owns a fabric company that called it something like "Orienmtial Yellow
Pearl Company of Chengdu" (that's the exact name; spelling errors
included). Now, the Chinese name is something like "jin wang" meaning
like golden king. Get my drift.

Some people attribute the word "tea" as from coming from the Chaozhou
area. In Mandarian, you say drink tea like: "he cha"; the 'e' is
pronounced like the 'u' in dumb, "cha" is pretty straight forward. In
the Chaozhou dialect they say something, there is no pinyin for their
language, "jia tei". The last word sounds like tea if it's pronounced
wrongly.

I'll call my student from Chaozhou and see if he knows; probably
doesn't though.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Good theory, but I don't think so. Kam is Cantonese for gold (verified
by the name of every business every opened by a person from Hong Kong),
and a Cantonese friend tells me that 'stove' is jou, so 'jove' is not
far off.

As for Chaozhouhua, it is in fact a dialect of Minnanhua, as is
Taiwanese - Chaozhou was populated by people from around Xiamen. I
speak a little Taiwanese (very, very badly) and gold is pronounced
something like 'gim'. I don't know how you pronounce stove but I bet
it's tsau.

You're correct that the English word 'tea' is from Minnan, btw. It's
pronounced like the English word 'day' with a falling-rising
inflection, and written in the main transcription system as 'te'
(because the consonant is not voiced). At the museum in Macau there is
an excellent exhibit that traces the words for tea in about a hundred
languages to the Cantonese word cha (eg. Hindi 'chai') and the
Fujianese word te (tea, the in French, etc). At least, the exhibit was
there when I went in 1999. You could put on headphones and hear the
word in all the different languages. Very cool.

Mydnight wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> > Dominic, the characters 金灶 mean 'gold stove' or 'gold hearth' and
> > are pronounced 'jinzao' in Mandarin. 'Kam' is an approximation of gold
> > in Cantonese, but I have no clue where they got 'Jove'. Any Cantonese
> > speakers out there?
>
> Well, the company is based out of Chaozhou, you know the Dan Cong
> place, so if anything the kamjove name could have come from the
> Chaozhou dialect. It is quite different from Cantonese and Mandarian;
> also quite different from the Kejia and Fujian languages, but closer to
> the Fujian language.
>
> Besides this, often when Chinese companies choose English names for
> their companies, they sometimes just randomly choose a word or follow
> the pinyin from the Mandarian. Many times, the names are quite
> inexplicable and meaningless. For instance, I know a guy that has a
> shoes manufacturing factory and the English name for his company is LT.
> That makes good sense because the factories name is "Li Tian"; meaning
> something like powerful sky. heh. I know another guy that has a tires
> trading company that named his company Haibo going along with the
> pinyin in Mandarian; also makes good sense. But, I know a lady that
> owns a fabric company that called it something like "Orienmtial Yellow
> Pearl Company of Chengdu" (that's the exact name; spelling errors
> included). Now, the Chinese name is something like "jin wang" meaning
> like golden king. Get my drift.
>
> Some people attribute the word "tea" as from coming from the Chaozhou
> area. In Mandarian, you say drink tea like: "he cha"; the 'e' is
> pronounced like the 'u' in dumb, "cha" is pretty straight forward. In
> the Chaozhou dialect they say something, there is no pinyin for their
> language, "jia tei". The last word sounds like tea if it's pronounced
> wrongly.
>
> I'll call my student from Chaozhou and see if he knows; probably
> doesn't though.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

> As for Chaozhouhua, it is in fact a dialect of Minnanhua, as is
> Taiwanese - Chaozhou was populated by people from around Xiamen. I
> speak a little Taiwanese (very, very badly) and gold is pronounced
> something like 'gim'. I don't know how you pronounce stove but I bet
> it's tsau.

This might be disputable. Some of the old folks I know in Chaozhou say
that it isn't of minnan origin; who knows.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

I don't think it is disputable. Here's Ethnologue:
http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=CFR
NB. under Singapo "Speakers report Hokkien and Teochew to be
intelligible with each other, but not Hainanese."
My personal experience is that I can understand the gist of Chaozhou
and Wenzhou dialects, but only very basic things like numbers and
personal pronouns in Hainanese.


Mydnight wrote:
> > As for Chaozhouhua, it is in fact a dialect of Minnanhua, as is
> > Taiwanese - Chaozhou was populated by people from around Xiamen. I
> > speak a little Taiwanese (very, very badly) and gold is pronounced
> > something like 'gim'. I don't know how you pronounce stove but I bet
> > it's tsau.
>
> This might be disputable. Some of the old folks I know in Chaozhou say
> that it isn't of minnan origin; who knows.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

On 2006-08-05, Alex > wrote:
> Good theory, but I don't think so. Kam is Cantonese for gold (verified
> by the name of every business every opened by a person from Hong Kong),
> and a Cantonese friend tells me that 'stove' is jou, so 'jove' is not
> far off.

"Jove" sounds like an entirely plausible transliteration for Cantonese
zou3 (Mandarin zao4, stove):
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...sound/zou3.wav


N.

Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Alex wrote:
> I don't think it is disputable. Here's Ethnologue:
> http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=CFR
> NB. under Singapo "Speakers report Hokkien and Teochew to be
> intelligible with each other, but not Hainanese."
> My personal experience is that I can understand the gist of Chaozhou
> and Wenzhou dialects, but only very basic things like numbers and
> personal pronouns in Hainanese.

Hokkien would be the Kejia language (Hakka)? The Kejia language is far
too diverse to actually be classified as a dialect of anything. It's
origins come from as far North as Henan and most "original" kejia words
have been eroded over the years by the prevailing languages that it has
come in contact with. For instance, here in Southeastern Guangdong,
the Kejia dialects have some aspects of Cantonese while in the Northern
areas of Guangdong, it sounds older and more original and resembles
some of the language that is spoken in Jiangxi. My best friend speaks
a language that only about 3000 people can speak and some of it's finer
points are competely different from Mandarian, Cantonese, or any other
language dialect in Southern China. It more resembles the Zhuang
minority language of Guangxi than anything. Chaozhou language is
similar to the languages in Fujian and Minnan, but it's hard to say
which is a dialect of which. That's why I said it's disputable.

As for Hainan language, it resembles nothing to either of the languages
we've talked about so far. Most people in Hainan speak one minority
language or another, usually Li, just like the people on the mainland
coastal city of Zhanjiang here in Guangdong. Wenzhou language is also
something completely different than what we've talked about before.

Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information. You
take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
area).

Also, the last time I visited Singapore, most people I encountered
either spoke Putonghua or Guangdonghua.

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Mydnight wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> > I don't think it is disputable. Here's Ethnologue:
> > http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=CFR
> > NB. under Singapo "Speakers report Hokkien and Teochew to be
> > intelligible with each other, but not Hainanese."
> > My personal experience is that I can understand the gist of Chaozhou
> > and Wenzhou dialects, but only very basic things like numbers and
> > personal pronouns in Hainanese.
>
> Hokkien would be the Kejia language (Hakka)?

No, 'Hokkien' is the Minnan pronounciation of 'Fujian', and it's the
word that English speakers in Singapore use to refer to Minnan dialect.


The Kejia language is far
> too diverse to actually be classified as a dialect of anything.

Wrong, Hakka is a distinct dialect of Chinese, albeit a fairly diverse
one. There is of course the old debate over whether the different
branches of Chinese should be called dialects or languages, but I'm not
getting into that here.

It's
> origins come from as far North as Henan and most "original" kejia words
> have been eroded over the years by the prevailing languages that it has
> come in contact with. For instance, here in Southeastern Guangdong,
> the Kejia dialects have some aspects of Cantonese while in the Northern
> areas of Guangdong, it sounds older and more original and resembles
> some of the language that is spoken in Jiangxi. My best friend speaks
> a language that only about 3000 people can speak and some of it's finer
> points are competely different from Mandarian, Cantonese, or any other
> language dialect in Southern China. It more resembles the Zhuang
> minority language of Guangxi than anything.

I don't think you'll find support for that anywhere, unless your friend
is a Zhuang-speaking Hakka or is confused about what he speaks, which
is pretty common in China.

Chaozhou language is
> similar to the languages in Fujian and Minnan, but it's hard to say
> which is a dialect of which. That's why I said it's disputable.

Chaozhou was settled by people from around what is now Xiamen during I
believe the Tang dynasty. 'Chaoshan' is the term for the dialect of
Minnan that is spoken in Chaozhou, Shantou and the surrounding area.
It is accurate (not to mention commonplace) to say that Chaoshan is a
'dialect' of Minnan, because the homeland of Minnan is in southern
Fujian, hence the name Minnan, and because it was brought to Chaozhou
by emigrants from that area. This is exactly analogous to saying that
American is a dialect of English, but that English is not a dialect of
American.

> As for Hainan language, it resembles nothing to either of the languages
> we've talked about so far. Most people in Hainan speak one minority
> language or another, usually Li, just like the people on the mainland
> coastal city of Zhanjiang here in Guangdong.

You are correct that many languages are spoken in Hainan. However, Han
Chinese people (as opposed to minority groups) who live on the coast of
Hainan Island are also descendants of Fujianese seafarers, and speak a
dialect of Minnan. This speech is referred to as 'Hainanese'.

Wenzhou language is also
> something completely different than what we've talked about before.

Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.

> Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.

They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
with their grandparents.

You
> take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> area).

I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
Minnan.

> Also, the last time I visited Singapore, most people I encountered
> either spoke Putonghua or Guangdonghua.

People in Singapore have been 'strongly encouraged' to speak Mandarin
since the 1980's. Singapore Chinese are about 45% of Southern
Fujianese origin, and Hokkien/Fujian/Minnan is the most common Chinese
dialect spoken at home in Singapore. About 16% of Singapore Chinese
are of Cantonese ancestry. They are now allowed to show
Cantonese-language TV (from HK) in Singapore, so Cantonese-speakers are
getting a little boost from that.

I'm at work and thus don't have any of my language books around, but if
you're still dubious I can cite everything I said later. If you don't
trust Wikipedia, which by the way is a great source for this sort of
information, a very good place for to start would be Ramsey, The
Languages of China.

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

..
>
>
> The Kejia language is far
> > too diverse to actually be classified as a dialect of anything.
>
> Wrong, Hakka is a distinct dialect of Chinese, albeit a fairly diverse
> one. There is of course the old debate over whether the different
> branches of Chinese should be called dialects or languages, but I'm not
> getting into that here.

Your definition of Chinese is what, Putonghua? Don't tell me that I am
wrong simply because you found some website online. The Kejia language
has become eroded over about a thousand years and each place has it's
own distinct accent and special words that they use. Just around my
friend's hometown, each small place speaks a different version of
it...you don't call that diverse?


> It's
> > origins come from as far North as Henan and most "original" kejia words
> > have been eroded over the years by the prevailing languages that it has
> > come in contact with. For instance, here in Southeastern Guangdong,
> > the Kejia dialects have some aspects of Cantonese while in the Northern
> > areas of Guangdong, it sounds older and more original and resembles
> > some of the language that is spoken in Jiangxi. My best friend speaks
> > a language that only about 3000 people can speak and some of it's finer
> > points are competely different from Mandarian, Cantonese, or any other
> > language dialect in Southern China. It more resembles the Zhuang
> > minority language of Guangxi than anything.
>
> I don't think you'll find support for that anywhere, unless your friend
> is a Zhuang-speaking Hakka or is confused about what he speaks, which
> is pretty common in China.

I find support in person. I have learned some of their language by
talking to them face-to-face on a daily basis. I have asked some of my
students that are Zhuang people about their language and there are some
very interesting similarities. For instance, the numbers 1-10 sound
very similar phonetically. My student in Guangxi and my best friend's
hometowns are nearly a thousand kilometers apart...that's too far apart
to be just coincidence.

My friend is a Kejia...they can trace their family history back to the
North.


> Chaozhou was settled by people from around what is now Xiamen during I
> believe the Tang dynasty. 'Chaoshan' is the term for the dialect of
> Minnan that is spoken in Chaozhou, Shantou and the surrounding area.
> It is accurate (not to mention commonplace) to say that Chaoshan is a
> 'dialect' of Minnan, because the homeland of Minnan is in southern
> Fujian, hence the name Minnan, and because it was brought to Chaozhou
> by emigrants from that area. This is exactly analogous to saying that
> American is a dialect of English, but that English is not a dialect of
> American.

Chaoshan refers to the geographical area that encompasses Chaozhou,
Jieyang, Shantou, and the areas around there; it is not the name of any
specific language. The Chaozhou and Shantou languages both share
similarities but are not exactly the same as that website states. The
site didn't mention the countless variations that each area has, and it
is simply countless. In China, one could take a lifetime to study the
languages within a 30 mile radius. There are no absolutes; you should
know that.

It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
and see what they tell you.


> > As for Hainan language, it resembles nothing to either of the languages
> > we've talked about so far. Most people in Hainan speak one minority
> > language or another, usually Li, just like the people on the mainland
> > coastal city of Zhanjiang here in Guangdong.
>
> You are correct that many languages are spoken in Hainan. However, Han
> Chinese people (as opposed to minority groups) who live on the coast of
> Hainan Island are also descendants of Fujianese seafarers, and speak a
> dialect of Minnan. This speech is referred to as 'Hainanese'.

Have you been to Zhanjiang, Maoming, Yangjiang, or perhaps Jiangmen?
Each of those towns are in the place that you mentioned, around the
coast of Hainan and I have never heard them refer to their language as
"hainanhua". The people in Zhanjiang speak Li, just like most of the
local people on Hainan island. There are many Northerners that live in
Hainan now that speak Putonghua. I have spent a considerable amount of
time in Hainan as well as the areas around the coast on Guangdong, and
I can tell you from firsthand experience that they do not speak
anything that even resembles Minnanhua.

> Wenzhou language is also
> > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
>
> Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.

The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
speak a dialect of Minnanhua.

> > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
>
> They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> with their grandparents.

That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.

> You
> > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > area).
>
> I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> Minnan.

I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
things you are saying. The Minnnan language is simply not as
widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.

Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
your mind about the languages spoken there.

Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
isn't exactly that polite, is it?

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Mydnight wrote:
> .
> >
> >
> > The Kejia language is far
> > > too diverse to actually be classified as a dialect of anything.
> >
> > Wrong, Hakka is a distinct dialect of Chinese, albeit a fairly diverse
> > one. There is of course the old debate over whether the different
> > branches of Chinese should be called dialects or languages, but I'm not
> > getting into that here.
>
> Your definition of Chinese is what, Putonghua? Don't tell me that I am
> wrong simply because you found some website online. The Kejia language
> has become eroded over about a thousand years and each place has it's
> own distinct accent and special words that they use. Just around my
> friend's hometown, each small place speaks a different version of
> it...you don't call that diverse?

Sentence one there is proof that we are talking past one another. I'm
talking about Hanyu. I'm telling you that you're wrong because this is
something that I know a lot about. I did say that Hakka is diverse.

> > It's
> > > origins come from as far North as Henan and most "original" kejia words
> > > have been eroded over the years by the prevailing languages that it has
> > > come in contact with. For instance, here in Southeastern Guangdong,
> > > the Kejia dialects have some aspects of Cantonese while in the Northern
> > > areas of Guangdong, it sounds older and more original and resembles
> > > some of the language that is spoken in Jiangxi. My best friend speaks
> > > a language that only about 3000 people can speak and some of it's finer
> > > points are competely different from Mandarian, Cantonese, or any other
> > > language dialect in Southern China. It more resembles the Zhuang
> > > minority language of Guangxi than anything.
> >
> > I don't think you'll find support for that anywhere, unless your friend
> > is a Zhuang-speaking Hakka or is confused about what he speaks, which
> > is pretty common in China.
>
> I find support in person. I have learned some of their language by
> talking to them face-to-face on a daily basis. I have asked some of my
> students that are Zhuang people about their language and there are some
> very interesting similarities. For instance, the numbers 1-10 sound
> very similar phonetically. My student in Guangxi and my best friend's
> hometowns are nearly a thousand kilometers apart...that's too far apart
> to be just coincidence.
>
> My friend is a Kejia...they can trace their family history back to the
> North.

Zhuang and Hakka are totally different languages. Zhuang is similar to
Thai and Hakka is Chinese (not putonghua, Chinese). Very few people
still speak Zhuang, and my best guess based on what you have told me is
that either a) you are attributing a false similarity to two distinct
languages or b) your Zhuang friend is in fact speaking not Zhuang but a
dialect of Chinese.

>
>
> > Chaozhou was settled by people from around what is now Xiamen during I
> > believe the Tang dynasty. 'Chaoshan' is the term for the dialect of
> > Minnan that is spoken in Chaozhou, Shantou and the surrounding area.
> > It is accurate (not to mention commonplace) to say that Chaoshan is a
> > 'dialect' of Minnan, because the homeland of Minnan is in southern
> > Fujian, hence the name Minnan, and because it was brought to Chaozhou
> > by emigrants from that area. This is exactly analogous to saying that
> > American is a dialect of English, but that English is not a dialect of
> > American.
>
> Chaoshan refers to the geographical area that encompasses Chaozhou,
> Jieyang, Shantou, and the areas around there; it is not the name of any
> specific language. The Chaozhou and Shantou languages both share
> similarities but are not exactly the same as that website states. The
> site didn't mention the countless variations that each area has, and it
> is simply countless. In China, one could take a lifetime to study the
> languages within a 30 mile radius. There are no absolutes; you should
> know that.
>
> It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
> Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
> and see what they tell you.

Sorry, it is commonplace among the informed to state that Chaozhou is a
dialect of Minnan. I know that people in Chaozhou or Singapore are not
necessarily aware of this.

> > > As for Hainan language, it resembles nothing to either of the languages
> > > we've talked about so far. Most people in Hainan speak one minority
> > > language or another, usually Li, just like the people on the mainland
> > > coastal city of Zhanjiang here in Guangdong.
> >
> > You are correct that many languages are spoken in Hainan. However, Han
> > Chinese people (as opposed to minority groups) who live on the coast of
> > Hainan Island are also descendants of Fujianese seafarers, and speak a
> > dialect of Minnan. This speech is referred to as 'Hainanese'.
>
> Have you been to Zhanjiang, Maoming, Yangjiang, or perhaps Jiangmen?
> Each of those towns are in the place that you mentioned, around the
> coast of Hainan and I have never heard them refer to their language as
> "hainanhua". The people in Zhanjiang speak Li, just like most of the
> local people on Hainan island. There are many Northerners that live in
> Hainan now that speak Putonghua. I have spent a considerable amount of
> time in Hainan as well as the areas around the coast on Guangdong, and
> I can tell you from firsthand experience that they do not speak
> anything that even resembles Minnanhua.

....

> > Wenzhou language is also
> > > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
> >
> > Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> > spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.
>
> The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
> very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
> people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
> experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
> speak a dialect of Minnanhua.

I'm sorry, you're wrong. In northern Zhejiang people speak Wu dialects
like Shanghainese and Suzhouhua, and in Wenzhou they speak a variant of
Minnan. You can do little experiments yourself to convince yourself of
this, since you seem to have access to people from Wenzhou and Minnan;
just get each of them to count to ten and say a couple simple
sentences.

> > > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
> >
> > They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> > universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> > from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> > constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> > with their grandparents.
>
> That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
> lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
> several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
> cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
> widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
> places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
> those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
> that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
> the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.
>
> > You
> > > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > > area).
> >
> > I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> > perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> > bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> > Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> > someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> > 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> > Minnan.
>
> I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
> strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
> Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
> things you are saying.

That was remarkably fast considering our two posts were one hour apart
and it's eleven o'clock at night in China.

The Minnnan language is simply not as
> widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
> in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
> speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.
>
> Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
> China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
> first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
> associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
> natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
> that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
> your mind about the languages spoken there.
>
> Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
> isn't exactly that polite, is it?

It's funny that your general distrust of anything Chinese doesn't
extend to offhand comments made about languages by non-specialists.
The problem seems to be that it is very difficult to convince you of
anything. I don't feel like spending a lot of time explaining what a
dialect is and proving all my other assertions, and I suspect that,
even if I did, you wouldn't believe me, so I suggest you spend a while
reading up on this and then we can discuss it later, if you still want
to. If you can't get Ramsey in China then I would start with Hanyu
Fangyan Gaiyao by Yuan Jiahua, which is a very good overview and shows
how the methodology works.

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

> Sentence one there is proof that we are talking past one another. I'm
> talking about Hanyu. I'm telling you that you're wrong because this is
> something that I know a lot about. I did say that Hakka is diverse.

You assume I know little about Hanyu why, exactly? I can speak it,
write it, and I work using it...I also speak some Hakka.

> Zhuang and Hakka are totally different languages. Zhuang is similar to
> Thai and Hakka is Chinese (not putonghua, Chinese). Very few people
> still speak Zhuang, and my best guess based on what you have told me is
> that either a) you are attributing a false similarity to two distinct
> languages or b) your Zhuang friend is in fact speaking not Zhuang but a
> dialect of Chinese.

It's spoken widely by the Zhuang people in the Guangxi province and a
few different settlements in Yunnan and Guizhou. It is the one
minority language that has been the most widely studied, so it's far
from death. I never said that those two languages were the same, but I
did say that the language my friend speaks has some small similarities.

> > It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
> > Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
> > and see what they tell you.
>
> Sorry, it is commonplace among the informed to state that Chaozhou is a
> dialect of Minnan. I know that people in Chaozhou or Singapore are not
> necessarily aware of this.

Since the local people apparently aren't aware of the language they are
speaking, whom exactly is the "informed" state. It certainly isn't the
Chinese, according to you.

>
> > > Wenzhou language is also
> > > > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
> > >
> > > Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> > > spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.
> >
> > The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
> > very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
> > people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
> > experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
> > speak a dialect of Minnanhua.
>
> I'm sorry, you're wrong. In northern Zhejiang people speak Wu dialects
> like Shanghainese and Suzhouhua, and in Wenzhou they speak a variant of
> Minnan. You can do little experiments yourself to convince yourself of
> this, since you seem to have access to people from Wenzhou and Minnan;
> just get each of them to count to ten and say a couple simple
> sentences.

Suzhou is in Jiangsu.


> > > > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
> > >
> > > They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> > > universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> > > from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> > > constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> > > with their grandparents.
> >
> > That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
> > lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
> > several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
> > cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
> > widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
> > places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
> > those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
> > that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
> > the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.
> >
> > > You
> > > > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > > > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > > > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > > > area).
> > >
> > > I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> > > perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> > > bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> > > Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> > > someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> > > 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> > > Minnan.
> >
> > I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
> > strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
> > Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
> > things you are saying.
>
> That was remarkably fast considering our two posts were one hour apart
> and it's eleven o'clock at night in China.

What are you talking about? I had class at 7:15.
>
> The Minnnan language is simply not as
> > widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
> > in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
> > speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.
> >
> > Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
> > China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
> > first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
> > associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
> > natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
> > that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
> > your mind about the languages spoken there.
> >
> > Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
> > isn't exactly that polite, is it?
>
> It's funny that your general distrust of anything Chinese doesn't
> extend to offhand comments made about languages by non-specialists.
> The problem seems to be that it is very difficult to convince you of
> anything. I don't feel like spending a lot of time explaining what a
> dialect is and proving all my other assertions, and I suspect that,
> even if I did, you wouldn't believe me, so I suggest you spend a while
> reading up on this and then we can discuss it later, if you still want
> to. If you can't get Ramsey in China then I would start with Hanyu
> Fangyan Gaiyao by Yuan Jiahua, which is a very good overview and shows
> how the methodology works.

My general distrust of most things Chinese comes from living in China
(Guangdong mostly)and seeing the way they do things. This has little
to do with my ability to understand or study their language. I have
looked at some of the texts you mentioned; are they completely 100
percent free from criticism, I think not.

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Mydnight wrote:
> > Sentence one there is proof that we are talking past one another. I'm
> > talking about Hanyu. I'm telling you that you're wrong because this is
> > something that I know a lot about. I did say that Hakka is diverse.
>
> You assume I know little about Hanyu why, exactly? I can speak it,
> write it, and I work using it...I also speak some Hakka.
>
> > Zhuang and Hakka are totally different languages. Zhuang is similar to
> > Thai and Hakka is Chinese (not putonghua, Chinese). Very few people
> > still speak Zhuang, and my best guess based on what you have told me is
> > that either a) you are attributing a false similarity to two distinct
> > languages or b) your Zhuang friend is in fact speaking not Zhuang but a
> > dialect of Chinese.
>
> It's spoken widely by the Zhuang people in the Guangxi province and a
> few different settlements in Yunnan and Guizhou. It is the one
> minority language that has been the most widely studied, so it's far
> from death. I never said that those two languages were the same, but I
> did say that the language my friend speaks has some small similarities.
>
> > > It is not commonplace to mention that Chaozhou language is a dialect of
> > > Minnanhua. Come down to Chaozhou sometime and ask the locals there,
> > > and see what they tell you.
> >
> > Sorry, it is commonplace among the informed to state that Chaozhou is a
> > dialect of Minnan. I know that people in Chaozhou or Singapore are not
> > necessarily aware of this.
>
> Since the local people apparently aren't aware of the language they are
> speaking, whom exactly is the "informed" state. It certainly isn't the
> Chinese, according to you.
>
> >
> > > > Wenzhou language is also
> > > > > something completely different than what we've talked about before.
> > > >
> > > > Wenzhou dialect is a dialect of Minnan that is close enough to what is
> > > > spoken in Taiwan that I can understand it fairly well. See below.
> > >
> > > The Wenzhou language and some of the other languages in Zhejiang share
> > > very little with Minnanhua...there could be a small population of
> > > people that speak it, but I am unaware of them. I have little
> > > experience with the peoples in Zhejiang, but they don't think they
> > > speak a dialect of Minnanhua.
> >
> > I'm sorry, you're wrong. In northern Zhejiang people speak Wu dialects
> > like Shanghainese and Suzhouhua, and in Wenzhou they speak a variant of
> > Minnan. You can do little experiments yourself to convince yourself of
> > this, since you seem to have access to people from Wenzhou and Minnan;
> > just get each of them to count to ten and say a couple simple
> > sentences.
>
> Suzhou is in Jiangsu.
>
>
> > > > > Frankly, I don't know where those people got their information.
> > > >
> > > > They get it from linguistics professors in PhD programs at major
> > > > universities. I get it from a BA in linguistics and anthropology and
> > > > from living and travelling in China, Taiwan and SE Asia and from
> > > > constantly pestering my Chinese friends about the dialects they speak
> > > > with their grandparents.
> > >
> > > That is to say that my BA in lingustics isn't as good as your BA in
> > > lingustics? ;p I also currently live in China and can speak some of
> > > several dialects and am learning more the longer I stay here. I just
> > > cannot agree with you assertions on the lingustic power and how
> > > widespread Minnanhua is. I have been to and spent much time in the
> > > places that you mentioned, and there is little that you can do, or
> > > those lingustic PhDs, to convince me that all of those languages are
> > > that similar to Minnan language. When I get a PhD behind my name in
> > > the future, maybe I will be able to convince you.
> > >
> > > > You
> > > > > take a person from Taiwan and put them in Zhejiang or Hainan speaking
> > > > > Minnanhua, and they would only get sidelong glances and "ni shuo
> > > > > shenme" (or whatever language variant equilivant relevant to that
> > > > > area).
> > > >
> > > > I've spoken to someone from Wenzhou in Taiwanese and she understood me
> > > > perfectly well, and as I mentioned earlier my Taiwanese is miserably
> > > > bad, so you're wrong there (although, I did get some sidelong glances).
> > > > Haven't tried it with anyone from Hainan but I hope to have the chance
> > > > someday. I got a Hainanese-American friend to count to ten and say
> > > > 'hello' and 'eat rice' in Hainanese, and it was obviously a variant of
> > > > Minnan.
> > >
> > > I have several students and people in my company from Wenzhou and they
> > > strongly disagree with what you have just said. I have also asked my
> > > Taiwanese student and he is not exactly sure why you are saying the
> > > things you are saying.
> >
> > That was remarkably fast considering our two posts were one hour apart
> > and it's eleven o'clock at night in China.
>
> What are you talking about? I had class at 7:15.
> >
> > The Minnnan language is simply not as
> > > widespread as you think it is. The prevailing language that is spoken
> > > in Hainan is Li hua; a minority language. Even the Han that live there
> > > speak it; especially around the Southern areas like in Sanya city.
> > >
> > > Look, I am not here to bicker with you about languages. I am here in
> > > China and I can use my limited BA skills to study the languages from my
> > > first-hand experiences though my close friends, students, business
> > > associates, and peoples local to the places we have mentioned. It is
> > > natural to have disagreements, but I think you should visit the places
> > > that you are talking about before you try to form hardened ideas in
> > > your mind about the languages spoken there.
> > >
> > > Your telling me that I am "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you
> > > isn't exactly that polite, is it?
> >
> > It's funny that your general distrust of anything Chinese doesn't
> > extend to offhand comments made about languages by non-specialists.
> > The problem seems to be that it is very difficult to convince you of
> > anything. I don't feel like spending a lot of time explaining what a
> > dialect is and proving all my other assertions, and I suspect that,
> > even if I did, you wouldn't believe me, so I suggest you spend a while
> > reading up on this and then we can discuss it later, if you still want
> > to. If you can't get Ramsey in China then I would start with Hanyu
> > Fangyan Gaiyao by Yuan Jiahua, which is a very good overview and shows
> > how the methodology works.
>
> My general distrust of most things Chinese comes from living in China
> (Guangdong mostly)and seeing the way they do things. This has little
> to do with my ability to understand or study their language. I have
> looked at some of the texts you mentioned; are they completely 100
> percent free from criticism, I think not.

Wait a minute. What texts have you looked at that I mentioned? And,
what specifically would you criticize about them? That sentence makes
me suspect you are actually full of shit, because you could not
possibly have read either Ramsey or Yuan. Please explain what you
meant.

Other than that, we're talking past each other to such a degree that
there is really no point in continuing the discussion. Aside from this
one point: Suzhou is in Jiangsu, but Suzhouhua is a prestige version of
Wu, which is the dialect family spoken in the coastal areas of southern
Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang.

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

> Wait a minute. What texts have you looked at that I mentioned? And,
> what specifically would you criticize about them? That sentence makes
> me suspect you are actually full of shit, because you could not
> possibly have read either Ramsey or Yuan. Please explain what you
> meant.

Ya, you are right. How could I have possibly read or even seen two
well-known, popular texts on Chinese languages that are still given to
Asian Study students? That would be the Fangyan Gaiyao that was
written in 1983, right? A time where China had just begun to recover
from years of destruction of their culture and languages; a time of
immense political instability. Sure, and the Ramsey that you mention
that was written in '87. Both of these books, one 23 years ago and
another nearly 19 years ago...

No, never seen them or heard of them. Yes, I am full of shit. You do
realize that much of the research done in those books are considered to
be broad strokes at a time in which much of the country was
inaccessible. At least, that's what my PhD lingustics professor, from
Shanghai, told me the last time I had his classes.

> Other than that, we're talking past each other to such a degree that
> there is really no point in continuing the discussion. Aside from this
> one point: Suzhou is in Jiangsu, but Suzhouhua is a prestige version of
> Wu, which is the dialect family spoken in the coastal areas of southern
> Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang.

Talking past each other? I don't see it unless you mean "talking past
each other" as you saying something like "I don't know know what I'm
talking about" as you continue to cite 20 year old texts. That must
have been it!

OT Southern Chinese dialects, was: Electric Kettle, was: Hello and Thank You
 

Mydnight wrote:
> > Wait a minute. What texts have you looked at that I mentioned? And,
> > what specifically would you criticize about them? That sentence makes
> > me suspect you are actually full of shit, because you could not
> > possibly have read either Ramsey or Yuan. Please explain what you
> > meant.
>
> Ya, you are right. How could I have possibly read or even seen two
> well-known, popular texts on Chinese languages that are still given to
> Asian Study students? That would be the Fangyan Gaiyao that was
> written in 1983, right? A time where China had just begun to recover
> from years of destruction of their culture and languages; a time of
> immense political instability. Sure, and the Ramsey that you mention
> that was written in '87. Both of these books, one 23 years ago and
> another nearly 19 years ago...
>
> No, never seen them or heard of them. Yes, I am full of shit. You do
> realize that much of the research done in those books are considered to
> be broad strokes at a time in which much of the country was
> inaccessible. At least, that's what my PhD lingustics professor, from
> Shanghai, told me the last time I had his classes.
>
> > Other than that, we're talking past each other to such a degree that
> > there is really no point in continuing the discussion. Aside from this
> > one point: Suzhou is in Jiangsu, but Suzhouhua is a prestige version of
> > Wu, which is the dialect family spoken in the coastal areas of southern
> > Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang.
>
> Talking past each other? I don't see it unless you mean "talking past
> each other" as you saying something like "I don't know know what I'm
> talking about" as you continue to cite 20 year old texts. That must
> have been it!

Read them again and get back to me.

OT Southern Chinese dialects (and Ti Lo Han)
 

Guys, guys, guys!
I know next to nothing about Chinese,
but I've been trained in linguistics. That
last, along with a couple dollars, gets me
on the subway in NYC, so don't knock it..

I am tempted to bore you all with some
linguistic theory regarding such outmoded
concepts as "dialect," but thought better
of it, you'll be pleased to know. I would
say that I think a lot of your discussion
suffers from your occasional attempts
to find absolute truths in concepts that
are relative in nature. Having said that,
I thoroughly enjoy your thoughts, and am
attempting to follow the thread. Just play
nice. That's the ticket.

I'm drinking a Ti Lo Han picked in the
1980's, heavily roasted obviously, and
quite tastey. This WuYi style is one of
my favorites, but for heavier roasts, I
like the ones with some age on them
best of all. This one fits the bill. It gets
right to your tonsils and returns in
complex bursts on the tongue and
throughout the mouth. Technically
speaking: Yummy yum yum! Iron
Monk!!

Michael

OT Southern Chinese dialects (and Ti Lo Han)
 

I've learned that Mydnight is more native than I would have thought
from his posts.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> Guys, guys, guys!

OT Southern Chinese dialects (and Ti Lo Han)
 

Space 8/8/06


> I've learned that Mydnight is more native than I would have thought
> from his posts.
>
> Jim
>
> Michael Plant wrote:
>> Guys, guys, guys!

Jim, me thinks the natives are revolting!
Michael

OT Southern Chinese dialects (and Ti Lo Han)
 

That's because they have to go through China Post just like us. My
last order two weeks SAL from Shanghai. The slow boat from China was
in port. The Xiaguan FT BaoYan is highly recommended. It doesn't
require the Yak.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> Space 8/8/06
>
>
> > I've learned that Mydnight is more native than I would have thought
> > from his posts.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Michael Plant wrote:
> >> Guys, guys, guys!
>
> Jim, me thinks the natives are revolting!
> Michael