Hello all. I'm drinking some 2005 Xi-Zhi Hao Nan Nuo purple tips that
I got as a sample from Hou De. Xi-Zhi Hao (actually Xizi Hao, but who
cares, right?) is a newish brand of single-estate pu'er, produced by a
Taiwanese company. It's pretty expensive but very high quality, as far
as I can tell. I noticed that Sensei Petro recommends the Lao Ban Zhan
(actually Laobanzhang, but again, who cares) on his website. I like
the LBZ too, but the Nan Nuo really does it for me, for some reason.
It's very young, obviously, but really round and complex and has this
faint pepper taste that I really like.

So, I have two questions:

One, has anyone else tried the Nan Nuo, and what do you think about it?


Two, generally when you are drinking a new pu'er, what are some clues
that it will be a good aged pu'er ten years down the line? In other
words, what do you look for in a new pu'er that indicates to you that
it will age well?

Thanks, any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi ALex,

This is a tall and heavy subject.

The problem is that most of us can only relay what we have been told
as very few have collected puerh long enough to know for themselves
first hand. To find someone who "really" knows you need to find
someone who bought a cake thirty years ago, tasted the same cake every
year, and kept good notes about his tastings. There are not many of
those people around, and the vast majority of them do not speak
English.

Collective wisdom based on what I have been "told" is to look for a
cake with a certain energy about it, a certain strength, a certain
"qi". Mild and mellow cakes that taste good now are allegedly not good
candidates for storage. Look for even compression, not too tight, not
too loose. Definitely look for cakes that were made from maocha that
was sun dried and NOT mechanically dried (ie baked). Storage is
probably the strongest influence over the final quality, assuming it
was good leaf to begin with. There is also a great deal of luck
involved, if people could accurately predict which cakes would be
great the entire productions would get snatched up by investors. Even
the Masters are only speculating, albeit with much better results than
us laowai.

To further complicate matters it appears that 2005-2006 maocha is not
of the same quality as maocha from years gone by. China's newly
affluent families have created such a demand for puerh that almost any
maocha is being used regardless of quality. The standards appear to
have been lowered. There is even speculation that the puerh bubble
will crash in a year or two. To sum it up, 2005-2006 cakes may not be
the best choice for aging.

I hope this was useful....

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

> To further complicate matters it appears that 2005-2006 maocha is not
> of the same quality as maocha from years gone by. China's newly
> affluent families have created such a demand for puerh that almost any
> maocha is being used regardless of quality. The standards appear to
> have been lowered. There is even speculation that the puerh bubble
> will crash in a year or two. To sum it up, 2005-2006 cakes may not be
> the best choice for aging.

Most people are now considering tea from 2003 and before to be the
stuff that's going to have true value in the upcoming years. The
uneduated locals here have bought up pu'er as if it were an oil
reserve; I know a guy that bought 300jin of some really low quality qi
zi bing from some unknown factory simply because he thought it, "was
[is] a good investment". I recently went to market to see if I could
find some 2003 aged stuff, and even most of that has been bought up.

Pu'er doesn't have a very bright future.

[Mike Petro on what to look for in a good storage candidate cake]

some snipping

> To further complicate matters it appears that 2005-2006 maocha is not of
> the same quality as maocha from years gone by. China's newly affluent
> families have created such a demand for puerh that almost any maocha is
> being used regardless of quality. The standards appear to have been
> lowered. There is even speculation that the puerh bubble will crash in a
> year or two. To sum it up, 2005-2006 cakes may not be the best choice for
> aging.

I rely on you for such information, and thank you for
sharing it with us. Meanwhile, another question: Mao
Cha comes in any number of "grades" ranging from one
to perhaps 20, and also letter codes that indicate
qualities better than "1." It is my understanding that
those cakes most amenable to good development over time
would be cakes that are *not* produced solely from leaf
of the highest quality -- according to the scales -- but
rather from leaf that mixes "higher" and "lower"quality.
(This does not contradict your statement about 2005-2006
leaf, but I think it bears discussion.)

Also, those cakes made from one single certified ancient
tree -- please don't run out to try to find one -- would
most likely maintain their quality each year, regardless
of how the mixed leaf cakes fluxuate, would it not?

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> [Mike Petro on what to look for in a good storage candidate cake]
>
> some snipping
>
> > To further complicate matters it appears that 2005-2006 maocha is not of
> > the same quality as maocha from years gone by. China's newly affluent
> > families have created such a demand for puerh that almost any maocha is
> > being used regardless of quality. The standards appear to have been
> > lowered. There is even speculation that the puerh bubble will crash in a
> > year or two. To sum it up, 2005-2006 cakes may not be the best choice for
> > aging.
>
> I rely on you for such information, and thank you for
> sharing it with us. Meanwhile, another question: Mao
> Cha comes in any number of "grades" ranging from one
> to perhaps 20, and also letter codes that indicate
> qualities better than "1." It is my understanding that
> those cakes most amenable to good development over time
> would be cakes that are *not* produced solely from leaf
> of the highest quality -- according to the scales -- but
> rather from leaf that mixes "higher" and "lower"quality.
> (This does not contradict your statement about 2005-2006
> leaf, but I think it bears discussion.)

Ahhh,yes. The "quality", in the context that I intended it, was in no
way related to "grade". Quality has to do with the pedigree of the
trees from which the leaf was picked, as well as climate, drying
skills, etc; grade is just a classification of leaf size. The Yunnan
Large Leaf varietal (Da Ye), from which all "authentic" puerh is
made, has some exceptions to traditional grading that encompass the
larger than normal, often wild, leaves. Cakes made entirely from small
sweet leaves are not good candidates for aging, generally you want a
healthy portion of the larger grades in there for the "strength"
component which is where you see the biggest transformation over time.
Conversely, some cakes made entirely from larger grades of leaf are
often quite good when aged. Smaller leaf tends to be sweeter,
particularly if it includes the buds. The larger leaves are often
bitter when young but, if of good pedigree, become sweet and mellow
with age.

A lot of good cakes have a blend of lower grade (ie larger leaf not
necessarily lower quality) leaf for strength and character, usually
positioned on the inside of the cake, mixed with higher grade (ie
smaller leaf not necessarily higher quality) for sweetness. The smaller
prettier leaf is often on the surfaces of the cake for appearance
reasons. Other "single plantation" cakes can be made of a single
grade leaf, particularly if the trees are wild. Just because a cake is
from a "single plantation" does not make it good, it still depends
on the pedigree of the trees.


> Also, those cakes made from one single certified ancient
> tree -- please don't run out to try to find one -- would
> most likely maintain their quality each year, regardless
> of how the mixed leaf cakes fluxuate, would it not?

Cakes made from "Truly" ancient trees are a bit of an exception;
for one thing they are quite rare and very seldom make their way into
public distribution. Chinese aristocrats get the bulk of them. When
found they are generally VERY expensive. They will always be a good
investment as the true aficionados will always treasure them even if
the mass-market bubble was to burst. I am not sure that "every"
ancient tree yields good leaf, but I have not heard of any that
don't. Be very wary though as the terms "ancient" and "wild"
are buzz words used extensively for marketing purposes and are often
only partially true or not true at all. Many supposedly "wild"
cakes only have 10% or less truly wild leaf in them and are blend with
leaf from other cultivated trees. Don't expect to get an authentic
100% "wild" or "ancient tree" cake for $20 or less....

_____
Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

[massive snippage]

[Michael me]
>> Also, those cakes made from one single certified ancient tree -- please
>> don't run out to try to find one -- would most likely maintain their
>> quality each year, regardless of how the mixed leaf cakes fluxuate, would
>> it not?

[Mike P]
> Cakes made from "Truly" ancient trees are a bit of an exception; for one
> thing they are quite rare and very seldom make their way into public
> distribution. Chinese aristocrats get the bulk of them. When found they
> are generally VERY expensive. They will always be a good investment as
> the true aficionados will always treasure them even if the mass-market
> bubble was to burst. I am not sure that "every" ancient tree yields good
> leaf, but I have not heard of any that don't. Be very wary though as the
> terms "ancient" and "wild" are buzz words used extensively for marketing
> purposes and are often only partially true or not true at all. Many
> supposedly "wild" cakes only have 10% or less truly wild leaf in them and
> are blend with leaf from other cultivated trees. Don't expect to get an
> authentic 100% "wild" or "ancient tree" cake for $20 or less....

[me again]
Did you say, "$20 or less..."? Hehehehe. Hahahahahah.
ROTFL. Somebody pick me up. 20:20. M

>[me again]
>Did you say, "$20 or less..."? Hehehehe. Hahahahahah.
>ROTFL. Somebody pick me up. 20:20. M


Heheh, I thought you might appreciate that...

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike, that was very useful. Thanks a lot. Some of the very young
pu'ers that I have sampled taste strong and somewhat zingy or peppery,
and have a kind of intense energy about them. I'll lay down a few of
those and see what happens. It's interesting because the quality that
I think you're talking about is exactly what I like best about young
pu'er anyway.

As far as the risk of buying bad tea, I don't know. I feel that, while
I am certainly not one of these Robert Parker (or Teaparker) types that
can tell you what farm on what mountain produced the tea, and what was
wrong with the water and pot used to brew it, I can tell good tea from
bad, and more importantly, I can tell tea that I like from tea that I
don't like. I think the idea of laying down bingchas as an
'investment' (rather than as something for me to drink when I'm
retired) is a ridiculous one, all the more so because of the current
boom. What are these investors expecting to get as an annual return?
And when it comes time to sell the things in twenty years, how are they
going to convince the buyer that it's not fake? I would think it's
easier to tell fake young pu'er from fake old pu'er, no?

Tea is one of the primary pleasures in my life. I like wine a lot, and
I like good tobacco, but I like tea a lot more. And, it's cheap. A
single glass of good wine (at least, of the best wine that I ever buy)
can cost $12. Hou De is a dependable and good, but certainly not
inexpensive, retailer. Their most expensive cake is from the 70's, and
costs a (to me) stunning $525. Weighing 350g, I would get about 70
pots out of that (mmm ... 70 pots ... what a nice thought) which breaks
down to $7.50 per pot. So each cup would end up costing me less than a
dollar!

Tea is cheap. Chinese nouveau riche are just as dumb (if not dumber)
as nouveau riche anywhere, and they have tons of money to throw at
stupid stuff, but they are going to have to throw a lot of money at
pu'er for a long, long time before even the really expensive stuff is
out of reach for the average Western consumer. Japanese and Taiwanese
buyers drove up the price of first-growth Bordeaux in the 80s, and
drank it mixed with Sprite (true story), but that didn't mean that it
was impossible for us plebians to get our hands on very good wine at
reasonable prices.

Anyway. I like this Nan Nuo very much. It's got a real eye-opening
quality to it. I think I'm going to spend another couple months buying
and drinking samples before I go spending hundreds of dollars on cakes,
but right now, this one is a prime candidate.

At the moment I'm drinking a 1999 Hai Wan raw 7548 that was graciously
included in my order as a free sample from Seb and Jing. It's very
smooth and tasty but not quite as good as a 2000 Fu Hai that came in
the same batch. Thanks again everyone for your thoughtful comments.

Alex


Mike Petro wrote:
> Hi ALex,
>
> This is a tall and heavy subject.
>
> The problem is that most of us can only relay what we have been told
> as very few have collected puerh long enough to know for themselves
> first hand. To find someone who "really" knows you need to find
> someone who bought a cake thirty years ago, tasted the same cake every
> year, and kept good notes about his tastings. There are not many of
> those people around, and the vast majority of them do not speak
> English.
>
> Collective wisdom based on what I have been "told" is to look for a
> cake with a certain energy about it, a certain strength, a certain
> "qi". Mild and mellow cakes that taste good now are allegedly not good
> candidates for storage. Look for even compression, not too tight, not
> too loose. Definitely look for cakes that were made from maocha that
> was sun dried and NOT mechanically dried (ie baked). Storage is
> probably the strongest influence over the final quality, assuming it
> was good leaf to begin with. There is also a great deal of luck
> involved, if people could accurately predict which cakes would be
> great the entire productions would get snatched up by investors. Even
> the Masters are only speculating, albeit with much better results than
> us laowai.
>
> To further complicate matters it appears that 2005-2006 maocha is not
> of the same quality as maocha from years gone by. China's newly
> affluent families have created such a demand for puerh that almost any
> maocha is being used regardless of quality. The standards appear to
> have been lowered. There is even speculation that the puerh bubble
> will crash in a year or two. To sum it up, 2005-2006 cakes may not be
> the best choice for aging.
>
> I hope this was useful....
>
> --
> Mike Petro
> http://www.pu-erh.net

While at the wedding rehearsal I got a chance to talk to my new
nephew-in-law. A while back I gave him some black puer bricks. He
said it is the most amazing growth medium he had seen for making
Kombucha. He apparently forgot the fermentation already had a head
start. The luncheon was completely organic from the dairy farm he is
buying from his parents. I'd clog my arteries on unpasturized milk and
butter everyday of the week if I had a chance.

Jim

PS It's almost to the point where the seller is out of stock before it
hits the website. On one recent order I got the last 5 from an
alotment of 3000 2005 Menghai Dayi 501 100g fang in the box. I tried
to order 10. They're gone for this year. I see some around in the
250g size.

Alex wrote:
....Sorry I had to cut in somewhere...
> As far as the risk of buying bad tea, I don't know. I feel that, while
> I am certainly not one of these Robert Parker (or Teaparker) types that
> can tell you what farm on what mountain produced the tea, and what was
> wrong with the water and pot used to brew it, I can tell good tea from
> bad, and more importantly, I can tell tea that I like from tea that I
> don't like. I think the idea of laying down bingchas as an
> 'investment' (rather than as something for me to drink when I'm
> retired) is a ridiculous one, all the more so because of the current
> boom. What are these investors expecting to get as an annual return?
> And when it comes time to sell the things in twenty years, how are they
> going to convince the buyer that it's not fake? I would think it's
> easier to tell fake young pu'er from fake old pu'er, no?

Not delving into any greater subjects better covered by others, I'll
say that I really like the Nannuo beeng. I don't get pepper, but I get
something sweetly herbal out of it, like tarragon or fennel, that I
really like.

~j

Alex wrote:
> Hello all. I'm drinking some 2005 Xi-Zhi Hao Nan Nuo purple tips that
> I got as a sample from Hou De. Xi-Zhi Hao (actually Xizi Hao, but who
> cares, right?) is a newish brand of single-estate pu'er, produced by a
> Taiwanese company. It's pretty expensive but very high quality, as far
> as I can tell. I noticed that Sensei Petro recommends the Lao Ban Zhan
> (actually Laobanzhang, but again, who cares) on his website. I like
> the LBZ too, but the Nan Nuo really does it for me, for some reason.
> It's very young, obviously, but really round and complex and has this
> faint pepper taste that I really like.
>
> So, I have two questions:
>
> One, has anyone else tried the Nan Nuo, and what do you think about it?
>
>
> Two, generally when you are drinking a new pu'er, what are some clues
> that it will be a good aged pu'er ten years down the line? In other
> words, what do you look for in a new pu'er that indicates to you that
> it will age well?
>
> Thanks, any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.