I'm a long time green tea drinker. I recently visited a tea shop and
the owner talked me into trying a Jade Oolong. It had such an intense
floral flavor (reminiscent of a Jasmine tea-but more "orchid") that it
was hard for me to believe the owner when she said that the flavor was
not added or infused like Jasmine is--that it was straight from the
leaves and the processing. The owner seemed fairly knowlegable,
although her green selection was limited to the "standard" greens such
as sencha, dragonwell, etc.

So, experts of the tea newgroup--what is Jade Oolong and why is it so
flavorful?

I bought a package: 2 oz. for $7.00 (USA).

In article om>,
> wrote:
>I'm a long time green tea drinker. I recently visited a tea shop and
>the owner talked me into trying a Jade Oolong. It had such an intense
>floral flavor (reminiscent of a Jasmine tea-but more "orchid") that it
>was hard for me to believe the owner when she said that the flavor was
>not added or infused like Jasmine is--that it was straight from the
>leaves and the processing. The owner seemed fairly knowlegable,
>although her green selection was limited to the "standard" greens such
>as sencha, dragonwell, etc.
>
>So, experts of the tea newgroup--what is Jade Oolong and why is it so
>flavorful?

Ask if it's an osmanthus blossom tea.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
> I'm a long time green tea drinker. I recently visited a tea shop and
> the owner talked me into trying a Jade Oolong. It had such an intense
> floral flavor (reminiscent of a Jasmine tea-but more "orchid") that it
> was hard for me to believe the owner when she said that the flavor was
> not added or infused like Jasmine is--that it was straight from the
> leaves and the processing. The owner seemed fairly knowlegable,
> although her green selection was limited to the "standard" greens such
> as sencha, dragonwell, etc.
>
> So, experts of the tea newgroup--what is Jade Oolong and why is it so
> flavorful?
>
> I bought a package: 2 oz. for $7.00 (USA).

It could be many things. Could you please describe the leaves or ask
about the Chinese name of the tea?

Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.

Jim

wrote:
> I'm a long time green tea drinker. I recently visited a tea shop and
> the owner talked me into trying a Jade Oolong. It had such an intense
> floral flavor (reminiscent of a Jasmine tea-but more "orchid") that it
> was hard for me to believe the owner when she said that the flavor was
> not added or infused like Jasmine is--that it was straight from the
> leaves and the processing. The owner seemed fairly knowlegable,
> although her green selection was limited to the "standard" greens such
> as sencha, dragonwell, etc.
>
> So, experts of the tea newgroup--what is Jade Oolong and why is it so
> flavorful?
>
> I bought a package: 2 oz. for $7.00 (USA).

Space 8/14/06


> Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
>
> Jim

Jim, IMHE pouchong is quite different. It sports twisty long
beautiful green leaves, and brews a different taste that I call
cucumber flower because it differs considerably from Jade
Oolong, which I don't like quite as much. Too much florisity.
Have to admit though that pouchong is iffy. Sometimes it's
wonderful, and sometimes not.
Michael

Space Cowboy wrote:
> Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
>
> Jim


I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?

Pouchong = qing xiang?

We had a previous discussion on the character(s) for Pouchong. Given
the transliteration I was assuming two. On the commercial packaging
you'll see that character with the word. It is only one character:

http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=51CA

The are the two characters for 'jade' oolong:
http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7FE0
http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7389

Jim

Mydnight wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> >
> > Jim
>
>
> I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
>
> Pouchong = qing xiang?

I can't really disagree with you that the two are different. My Jade
is semi rolled and Pouchong long and twisted. However I can taste more
similarities than not once you get beyond the floral taste. I think
pouchong is a style from Nantou. However it could be from other areas
like DongDing or AliShan but I don't know.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> Space 8/14/06
>
>
> > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Jim, IMHE pouchong is quite different. It sports twisty long
> beautiful green leaves, and brews a different taste that I call
> cucumber flower because it differs considerably from Jade
> Oolong, which I don't like quite as much. Too much florisity.
> Have to admit though that pouchong is iffy. Sometimes it's
> wonderful, and sometimes not.
> Michael

Mydnight, you are possibly unlikely to encounter Jade oolong on the
Mainland because it's one of the new Taiwanese cultivars, like Si Ji
Chun (å››å*£æ˜¥) and Jinxuan (金è�±).

Actually, it would be interesting to know more about how Taiwanese tea
is doing on the Mainland market. I understand it's getting more
popular.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> We had a previous discussion on the character(s) for Pouchong. Given
> the transliteration I was assuming two. On the commercial packaging
> you'll see that character with the word. It is only one character:
>
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=51CA
>
> The are the two characters for 'jade' oolong:
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7FE0
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7389
>
> Jim
>
> Mydnight wrote:
> > Space Cowboy wrote:
> > > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> >
> > I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> > find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
> >
> > Pouchong = qing xiang?

Pouchong = baozhong = 包� (simplified characters) = traditional ie.
not high mountain Taiwanese oolong. Not tightly rolled, but long leaf
form like a Wuyi oolong. I don't think they are as roasted, but I
don't actually know very much about them.

The character you posted is 清 (simplified) and means 'pure'. I don't
know why it would be on a tea package, but you might be confusing it
with � which means 'green' (really, blue-green) and is used to
describe lightly fermented teas like oolongs, certainly including
baozhong. They are pronounced the same - 'qing'.

ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan. It is totally
possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> We had a previous discussion on the character(s) for Pouchong. Given
> the transliteration I was assuming two. On the commercial packaging
> you'll see that character with the word. It is only one character:
>
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=51CA
>
> The are the two characters for 'jade' oolong:
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7FE0
> http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7389
>
> Jim
>
> Mydnight wrote:
> > Space Cowboy wrote:
> > > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> >
> > I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> > find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
> >
> > Pouchong = qing xiang?

> Actually, it would be interesting to know more about how Taiwanese tea
> is doing on the Mainland market. I understand it's getting more
> popular.

Ok, thanks, I got it now. I know a few vendors that sell low quality
productions of those teas; more than likely fake, doctored, or
nonsense.

As for Taiwan tea in the market, really high quality stuff is hard to
come by. A student of mine brought me back some A Li Shan he got in
the supermarket in Taiwan and it was leaps and bounds better than some
of the "'real' Gao Shan shops" that had been suggested to me by my tea
drinking friends here on the mainland. I have also been lucky to meet
several Taiwanese, pretty old guys, that are really into tea. They
have basically "shown me the light" so to speak. You simply cannot
acquire a really high grade of this tea on the mainland, even if you
pay like 1500RMB.

Down at Fangcun, you will find a slew of different shops that sell "gao
shan" teas and "Taiwan" teas. They mostly do business by selling the
teas that supposedly come from Taiwan in packages, but that doesn't
explain the boxes and boxes of loose tea in their backrooms. They
markup the prices insanely and mostly do business with the
money-laundering types that can get "fa piao" invoices to get money
back from their companies. I've sampled several different grades,
supposedly, at those shops and it sorta all tasted the same: slightly
floral with the astringent finish that can be found in most low grade
Wulongs. Ali Shan...Dongding Wulong...Li Shan...basically the same.

There isn't much of a trend with the Taiwanese tea as it is with the
Taiwanese tea stuff. Pots, cups, tools, trays: It's all so much better
quality than the mainland stuff. You can so easily see it. I have a
pot that was given to me by my Taiwanese tea pal...leaps and
bounds...leaps and bounds.

The single character you see for Pouchong is what I stated. It is used
on every commercial package I have which is at least five. The
Taiwanese spelling I see for baozhong is paochung. On the surface I
would say PaoChung and PouChong are both Wade-Giles equivalent but
maybe not. Only the characters count.

Jim

Alex wrote:
> Pouchong = baozhong = °üÖÖ (simplified characters) = traditional ie.
> not high mountain Taiwanese oolong. Not tightly rolled, but long leaf
> form like a Wuyi oolong. I don't think they are as roasted, but I
> don't actually know very much about them.
>
> The character you posted is Çå (simplified) and means 'pure'. I don't
> know why it would be on a tea package, but you might be confusing it
> with Çà which means 'green' (really, blue-green) and is used to
> describe lightly fermented teas like oolongs, certainly including
> baozhong. They are pronounced the same - 'qing'.
>
> ´äÓñ is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan. It is totally
> possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > We had a previous discussion on the character(s) for Pouchong. Given
> > the transliteration I was assuming two. On the commercial packaging
> > you'll see that character with the word. It is only one character:
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=51CA
> >
> > The are the two characters for 'jade' oolong:
> > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7FE0
> > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7389
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Mydnight wrote:
> > > Space Cowboy wrote:
> > > > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > > > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > > > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > > I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> > > find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
> > >
> > > Pouchong = qing xiang?

> The character you posted is 清 (simplified) and means 'pure'. I don't
> know why it would be on a tea package, but you might be confusing it
> with � which means 'green' (really, blue-green) and is used to
> describe lightly fermented teas like oolongs, certainly including
> baozhong. They are pronounced the same - 'qing'.

We've gone over this before in detail. They use it for advertisement
mostly; not saying anything about the tea specifically. Another friend
of mine told me that it could have been a mistake made at the factory
when they were producing the packages. Factory workers have been known
to make mistakes in lettering. Another example of this is the "Cinese
Hotel" here in the Houjie district...they tried to play it off by
saying they meant to mean it as like Sino or something.

> ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan. It is totally
> possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.

My Taiwanese pals tell me that Baozhong tea is the most low quality tea
that they produce in Taiwan. Not sure if this is true or not. They
also said it was mostly meant for export. heh.

They are 'modified' W-G - pao-chung is correct. W-G is frequently
abused by Taiwanese people. That single character certainly relates to
tea, but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't *mean* baozhong, even if you
see it on a hundred thousand packages.

Mydnight thanks for the interesting report. Getting authentic anything
in China is certainly a frustrating experience. I would just wait
until the next time you are in the US and order it from Hou De.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> The single character you see for Pouchong is what I stated. It is used
> on every commercial package I have which is at least five. The
> Taiwanese spelling I see for baozhong is paochung. On the surface I
> would say PaoChung and PouChong are both Wade-Giles equivalent but
> maybe not. Only the characters count.
>
> Jim
>
> Alex wrote:
> > Pouchong = baozhong = 包� (simplified characters) = traditional ie.
> > not high mountain Taiwanese oolong. Not tightly rolled, but long leaf
> > form like a Wuyi oolong. I don't think they are as roasted, but I
> > don't actually know very much about them.
> >
> > The character you posted is 清 (simplified) and means 'pure'. I don't
> > know why it would be on a tea package, but you might be confusing it
> > with � which means 'green' (really, blue-green) and is used to
> > describe lightly fermented teas like oolongs, certainly including
> > baozhong. They are pronounced the same - 'qing'.
> >
> > ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> > so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan. It is totally
> > possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> > cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> > is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> > people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.
> >
> > Space Cowboy wrote:
> > > We had a previous discussion on the character(s) for Pouchong. Given
> > > the transliteration I was assuming two. On the commercial packaging
> > > you'll see that character with the word. It is only one character:
> > >
> > > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=51CA
> > >
> > > The are the two characters for 'jade' oolong:
> > > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7FE0
> > > http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUn...codepoint=7389
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > Mydnight wrote:
> > > > Space Cowboy wrote:
> > > > > Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
> > > > > from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
> > > > > pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> > > > find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
> > > >
> > > > Pouchong = qing xiang?

> > ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> > so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan.

Actually, it's mostly cultivated in Ming Jian, in low elevation,
machine harvested plantations. Like Jinxuan and Si Ji Chun, Cuiyu
(pronounced Tsui Yu) is a new breed of Oolong that Taiwan 'invented' in
the 1980s. It was designed to have a large yield and a fragrant smell
(but less lingering taste than the traditional qingxin oolong). This
also explains the lower price.

>> It is totally
> > possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> > cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> > is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> > people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.

Should only be called Baozhong those semi-fermented teas based on
qingxin (also called ruanzi or luanze) Oolong and processed with open
leaves (not rolled) and come from the Wen Shan (northern Taiwan area).
So there are 3 conditions to be fulfilled.
Baozhong has become synonymous for very light oxidation and
fermentation. Traditional Baozhong used to be medium oxidated. There
are also various possible levels of roasting for Baozhong, but I won't
go into the details.

> My Taiwanese pals tell me that Baozhong tea is the most low quality tea
> that they produce in Taiwan. Not sure if this is true or not. They
> also said it was mostly meant for export. heh.

Baozhong is usually graded depending on the quality, concentration and
length of the leaves. There are low quality/grade baozhongs, but there
are also very high grade baozhongs that belong to the best teas that
the island produces.

Stéphane
http://teamasters.blogspot.com

> > ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> > so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan.

Actually, it's mostly cultivated in Ming Jian, in low elevation,
machine harvested plantations. Like Jinxuan and Si Ji Chun, Cuiyu
(pronounced Tsui Yu) is a new breed of Oolong that Taiwan 'invented' in
the 1980s. It was designed to have a large yield and a fragrant smell
(but less lingering taste than the traditional qingxin oolong). This
also explains the lower price.

>> It is totally
> > possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> > cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> > is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> > people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.

Should only be called Baozhong those semi-fermented teas based on
qingxin (also called ruanzi or luanze) Oolong and processed with open
leaves (not rolled) and come from the Wen Shan (northern Taiwan area).
So there are 3 conditions to be fulfilled.
Baozhong has become synonymous for very light oxidation and
fermentation. Traditional Baozhong used to be medium oxidated. There
are also various possible levels of roasting for Baozhong, but I won't
go into the details.

> My Taiwanese pals tell me that Baozhong tea is the most low quality tea
> that they produce in Taiwan. Not sure if this is true or not. They
> also said it was mostly meant for export. heh.

Baozhong is usually graded depending on the quality, concentration and
length of the leaves. There are low quality/grade baozhongs, but there
are also very high grade baozhongs that belong to the best teas that
the island produces.

Stéphane
http://teamasters.blogspot.com

8/14/06


>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
>> Jade oolong is a light roast floral green oolong from Taiwan. It is
>> from the NanTou mtn area. Another name for light roast green oolong is
>> pouchong. I pay about 2 bucks an oz. Floral is the natural taste.
>>
>> Jim
>
>
> I am simply unfamilar with the English tea terminology with tea, I
> find. What is the Chinese name for jade wulong?
>
> Pouchong = qing xiang?

Pouchong = Bao Zhong, but greater lights
will help you here. This tea is so lightly
oxidized that most refer to it as something
other than Oolong. Babelcarp says quing
xiang means "clear fragrance" in an Oolong
sort of a way.
Michael

Space 8/14/06


> I can't really disagree with you that the two are different. My Jade
> is semi rolled and Pouchong long and twisted. However I can taste more
> similarities than not once you get beyond the floral taste. I think
> pouchong is a style from Nantou. However it could be from other areas
> like DongDing or AliShan but I don't know.

Jim, your point is well taken. I wonder though whether a super-super-fresh
Jade Oolong vis-a-vis a super-super-fresh Pouchong wouldn't show more
dramatic differences.
Michael

8/14/06


> My Taiwanese pals tell me that Baozhong tea is the most low quality tea
> that they produce in Taiwan. Not sure if this is true or not. They
> also said it was mostly meant for export. heh.

Given the equisite examples I've tasted from Wen Shan, I seriously doubt the
truth of this. I'm told that Bao Zhong producers are very proud of their
product. This makes sense. I have to say that many are cloying and overly
thick and just don't do it for me.
Michael

> Should only be called Baozhong those semi-fermented teas based on
> qingxin (also called ruanzi or luanze) Oolong and processed with open
> leaves (not rolled) and come from the Wen Shan (northern Taiwan area).
> So there are 3 conditions to be fulfilled.

> Baozhong has become synonymous for very light oxidation and
> fermentation. Traditional Baozhong used to be medium oxidated. There
> are also various possible levels of roasting for Baozhong, but I won't
> go into the details.

Stéphane, please do go into those details. Very interesting. BTW, I'd tasted
some Bao Zhong at 50% oxidation, which I wasn't fond of. You say this is the
old style. I'm partial to those long deep lovely green leaves.
Michael

Thanks for clearing that up, Stephane. Should baozhong be brewed
differently than other light oolongs?

Tea Masters Blog wrote:
> > > ç¿*玉 is jade as in jade oolong, pronounced cuiyu. It's a cultivar,
> > > so it could in theory be grown anywhere in Taiwan.
>
> Actually, it's mostly cultivated in Ming Jian, in low elevation,
> machine harvested plantations. Like Jinxuan and Si Ji Chun, Cuiyu
> (pronounced Tsui Yu) is a new breed of Oolong that Taiwan 'invented' in
> the 1980s. It was designed to have a large yield and a fragrant smell
> (but less lingering taste than the traditional qingxin oolong). This
> also explains the lower price.
>
> >> It is totally
> > > possible that baozhong style oolong could be made out of the jade
> > > cultivar, although baozhong may also indicate the type of cultivar that
> > > is used. We're in really confusing territory here though because most
> > > people are not clear about the cultivar, just the style.
>
> Should only be called Baozhong those semi-fermented teas based on
> qingxin (also called ruanzi or luanze) Oolong and processed with open
> leaves (not rolled) and come from the Wen Shan (northern Taiwan area).
> So there are 3 conditions to be fulfilled.
> Baozhong has become synonymous for very light oxidation and
> fermentation. Traditional Baozhong used to be medium oxidated. There
> are also various possible levels of roasting for Baozhong, but I won't
> go into the details.
>
> > My Taiwanese pals tell me that Baozhong tea is the most low quality tea
> > that they produce in Taiwan. Not sure if this is true or not. They
> > also said it was mostly meant for export. heh.
>
> Baozhong is usually graded depending on the quality, concentration and
> length of the leaves. There are low quality/grade baozhongs, but there
> are also very high grade baozhongs that belong to the best teas that
> the island produces.
>
> Stéphane
> http://teamasters.blogspot.com

I looked at Stephane's blog and she has no notes for Jade oolong. I
looked at her notes for Baozhong. If I read between the lines maybe
some Baozhong can match the Jade in fragrance like intensity. I notice
the similarites after the first pot once the fragrance has receded.
According to her the two cultivars are different, elevation, and
location. Darwin says they should taste different from geographical
isolation. I was surprised that the Jade oolong is mass produced. I
pay more for it than the Pouchong. All of a sudden my Pouchong taste
better. You can't go wrong if you are drinking the two jade
characters, the single commercial Pouchong character, or the twin
baozhong characters. I've never tasted a bad Taiwan tea. If it says
Taiwan I buy it with no hesitation even Assam packaged in Taiwan.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
> Space 8/14/06
>
>
> > I can't really disagree with you that the two are different. My Jade
> > is semi rolled and Pouchong long and twisted. However I can taste more
> > similarities than not once you get beyond the floral taste. I think
> > pouchong is a style from Nantou. However it could be from other areas
> > like DongDing or AliShan but I don't know.
>
> Jim, your point is well taken. I wonder though whether a super-super-fresh
> Jade Oolong vis-a-vis a super-super-fresh Pouchong wouldn't show more
> dramatic differences.
> Michael

It stirs my Taiwanese patriotism to hear you say that you've never
tasted a bad Taiwanese tea.

Personally, the Taiwanese tea that I like the least is Jinxuan. I
think the milkshake taste is interesting, but it exists in a more
subtle form in Qingxin, and I just find the stuff cloying after three
or four pots.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> I looked at Stephane's blog and she has no notes for Jade oolong. I
> looked at her notes for Baozhong. If I read between the lines maybe
> some Baozhong can match the Jade in fragrance like intensity. I notice
> the similarites after the first pot once the fragrance has receded.
> According to her the two cultivars are different, elevation, and
> location. Darwin says they should taste different from geographical
> isolation. I was surprised that the Jade oolong is mass produced. I
> pay more for it than the Pouchong. All of a sudden my Pouchong taste
> better. You can't go wrong if you are drinking the two jade
> characters, the single commercial Pouchong character, or the twin
> baozhong characters. I've never tasted a bad Taiwan tea. If it says
> Taiwan I buy it with no hesitation even Assam packaged in Taiwan.
>
> Jim
>
> Michael Plant wrote:
> > Space 8/14/06
> >
> >
> > > I can't really disagree with you that the two are different. My Jade
> > > is semi rolled and Pouchong long and twisted. However I can taste more
> > > similarities than not once you get beyond the floral taste. I think
> > > pouchong is a style from Nantou. However it could be from other areas
> > > like DongDing or AliShan but I don't know.
> >
> > Jim, your point is well taken. I wonder though whether a super-super-fresh
> > Jade Oolong vis-a-vis a super-super-fresh Pouchong wouldn't show more
> > dramatic differences.
> > Michael

Alex wrote:
"It stirs my Taiwanese patriotism to hear..."

Is that the sound of a ringing alarm bell that I hear?!


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

I haven't had any of the Taiwan milk tea. Know a good source for the
Jinxuan or Qingxin? I see some .TW sites selling from their estates
but still doesn't do me any good. The first Taiwan tea I ever tasted
is still seared in my brain. I think it was from a Twinings Formosa
Oolong tin.

Jim

Alex wrote:
> It stirs my Taiwanese patriotism to hear you say that you've never
> tasted a bad Taiwanese tea.
>
> Personally, the Taiwanese tea that I like the least is Jinxuan. I
> think the milkshake taste is interesting, but it exists in a more
> subtle form in Qingxin, and I just find the stuff cloying after three
> or four pots.
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
....I delete me...

> Stéphane, please do go into those details. Very interesting. BTW, I'd tasted
> some Bao Zhong at 50% oxidation, which I wasn't fond of. You say this is the
> old style. I'm partial to those long deep lovely green leaves.
> Michael

At 50% roasting, what you had is Shou Cha, a ripe tea. (Above 50%, the
roasting will be too strong and the Chinese say Pei Se -roasted to
death). This tea probably didn't hurt your stomach at all and had a
warming effect. The trick is to let such tea rest a while, so that it
can recover from the fire.

At 30% roasting, baozhong is called Qizhong Oolong. It's fairly complex
as it starts to feel shou, but still has a 'green' feel. I've seen very
mixed reactions concerning this tea.

At 10% roasting, the baozhong is still very green, but has aquired a
sweet honey taste. This is a more recent way to process baozhong. The
other advantage is that with less humidity, it can be stored longer
without loosing its freshness.

Stéphane

Don't tell anyone.

HobbesOxon wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> "It stirs my Taiwanese patriotism to hear..."
>
> Is that the sound of a ringing alarm bell that I hear?!
>
>
> Toodlepip,
>
> Hobbes

Jinxuan isn't real milk tea - it's an oolong cultivar that tastes
distinctly milk- or cream-like, even though nothing is added to it.
Very weird. I had actually noticed a creamy quality in non-Jinxuan
oolong in the past, and really liked it, but I think, personally, that
Jinxuan is too much of a good thing. It's not bad every once in a
while though. I got mine from Hou De, and it's very good quality. In
general I find that their Taiwanese teas are really excellent. There
may be other places that sell it too.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> I haven't had any of the Taiwan milk tea. Know a good source for the
> Jinxuan or Qingxin? I see some .TW sites selling from their estates
> but still doesn't do me any good. The first Taiwan tea I ever tasted
> is still seared in my brain. I think it was from a Twinings Formosa
> Oolong tin.
>
> Jim
>
> Alex wrote:
> > It stirs my Taiwanese patriotism to hear you say that you've never
> > tasted a bad Taiwanese tea.
> >
> > Personally, the Taiwanese tea that I like the least is Jinxuan. I
> > think the milkshake taste is interesting, but it exists in a more
> > subtle form in Qingxin, and I just find the stuff cloying after three
> > or four pots.
> >
> > Space Cowboy wrote:
> ...I delete me...

Alex wrote:
> Thanks for clearing that up, Stephane. Should baozhong be brewed
> differently than other light oolongs?

Yes. You first should use a teapot/gaiwan with thinner walls for more
fragrance (as opposed to aftertaste). In case of a teapot, use one that
is a little flat, while fisted oolong needs a round teapot.

For those who don't use a scale (like me), you have to consider that
the flat baozhong takes more space when you put it in your tea vessel.
As for the way you add the hot water, you don't need as energetic a
flow as for oolong (since the leaves are already open). Just pour at
medium strength on the leaves and then use the cover to push the
bubbles away.

Stéphane
http://teamasters.blogspot.com

[Stéphane]
> You first should use a teapot/gaiwan with thinner walls for more
> fragrance (as opposed to aftertaste). In case of a teapot, use one that
> is a little flat, while fisted oolong needs a round teapot.

Not that I doubt you, but why am I to use a round pot
for fisted Oolong and a flat one for Bao Zhong?
Michael

"Tea Masters Blog" > writes:

> > Stéphane, please do go into those details. Very interesting. BTW,
> > I'd tasted some Bao Zhong at 50% oxidation, which I wasn't fond
> > of. You say this is the old style. I'm partial to those long deep
> > lovely green leaves.
> > Michael
>
> At 50% roasting, what you had is Shou Cha, a ripe tea. (Above 50%, the
> roasting will be too strong and the Chinese say Pei Se -roasted to
> death). This tea probably didn't hurt your stomach at all and had a
> warming effect. The trick is to let such tea rest a while, so that it
> can recover from the fire.

Sorry, I'm confused by this. Are you equating roasting with
oxidation?

If you are indeed talking about roasting (after the oxidation has been
halted), maybe you could enlighten me about the concept of percentage
when used with roasting. How would you measure this? Is there really
a reliable way to say when tea is 100% roasted, aside from when it's
turned to charcoal?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> > > Stéphane, please do go into those details. Very interesting. BTW,
> > > I'd tasted some Bao Zhong at 50% oxidation, which I wasn't fond
> > > of. You say this is the old style. I'm partial to those long deep
> > > lovely green leaves.
> > > Michael
> >
> > At 50% roasting, what you had is Shou Cha, a ripe tea. (Above 50%, the
> > roasting will be too strong and the Chinese say Pei Se -roasted to
> > death). This tea probably didn't hurt your stomach at all and had a
> > warming effect. The trick is to let such tea rest a while, so that it
> > can recover from the fire.
>
> Sorry, I'm confused by this. Are you equating roasting with
> oxidation?
>
> If you are indeed talking about roasting (after the oxidation has been
> halted), maybe you could enlighten me about the concept of percentage
> when used with roasting. How would you measure this? Is there really
> a reliable way to say when tea is 100% roasted, aside from when it's
> turned to charcoal?
>
> /Lew

Sorry for the confusion. You're correct to notice that there is a
difference between oxidation and roasting. I misread Michael's post and
caused this confusion. Actually, he didn't have Shou Cha then (if there
was no roasting), but the more tradtional Baozhong (even though one
might argue about the correct %age. In my opinion, it should be lower
than 50%).

Stéphane

Michael Plant wrote:
> [Stéphane]
> > You first should use a teapot/gaiwan with thinner walls for more
> > fragrance (as opposed to aftertaste). In case of a teapot, use one that
> > is a little flat, while fisted oolong needs a round teapot.
>
> Not that I doubt you, but why am I to use a round pot
> for fisted Oolong and a flat one for Bao Zhong?
> Michael

It's a question of letting the leaves open up in harmony during their
brewing process. That's how you get the fragrance out from the leaves.
This can be achieved by putting very few leaves in the pot: the leaves
have enough space to unfold, but the tea may become too weak or you'd
have to let it brew so long that they also release heavier flavors and
astringency. So you have to add more leaves to be able to make shorter,
more fragrant brews, but then you get them crammed. So you have to
maximize the unfolding of the leaves by choosing a teapot shape that
fits the unfolding of the leaves.

For baozhong, a flat dry leaf, a pot that is not too high is what fits
its dry shape. But fisted Oolong will unfurl in all directions, like an
expanding balloon. That's why it will best open up in a round teapot.

As always, don't take my word for it. Try it out and share your
results.

Stéphane

> Michael Plant wrote:
>> [Stéphane]
>>> You first should use a teapot/gaiwan with thinner walls for more
>>> fragrance (as opposed to aftertaste). In case of a teapot, use one that
>>> is a little flat, while fisted oolong needs a round teapot.
>>
[m]
>> Not that I doubt you, but why am I to use a round pot
>> for fisted Oolong and a flat one for Bao Zhong?
>> Michael
>
[s]
> It's a question of letting the leaves open up in harmony during their
> brewing process. That's how you get the fragrance out from the leaves.
> This can be achieved by putting very few leaves in the pot: the leaves
> have enough space to unfold, but the tea may become too weak or you'd
> have to let it brew so long that they also release heavier flavors and
> astringency. So you have to add more leaves to be able to make shorter,
> more fragrant brews, but then you get them crammed. So you have to
> maximize the unfolding of the leaves by choosing a teapot shape that
> fits the unfolding of the leaves.

[m]
This all makes perfect sense to me, but
does it address the question of shape? I
think it speaks to the issue of volume.

[s]
> For baozhong, a flat dry leaf, a pot that is not too high is what fits
> its dry shape. But fisted Oolong will unfurl in all directions, like an
> expanding balloon. That's why it will best open up in a round teapot.

[m]
There it is. Thanks, Stéphane. I guess
my instincts were right then when I
chose a "stone gourd" teapot for my
Dan Congs. (By "stone gourd," I mean
those posts that are flat and squat, with
walls angled more or less straight and
inward (from the bottom up) and with
short straight spouts.

[s]
> As always, don't take my word for it. Try it out and share your
> results.

[m]
Of course, good point, as always.

Michael

[Stephane]
>>> At 50% roasting, what you had is Shou Cha, a ripe tea. (Above 50%, the
>>> roasting will be too strong and the Chinese say Pei Se -roasted to
>>> death). This tea probably didn't hurt your stomach at all and had a
>>> warming effect. The trick is to let such tea rest a while, so that it
>>> can recover from the fire.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm confused by this. Are you equating roasting with
>> oxidation?
>>
>> If you are indeed talking about roasting (after the oxidation has been
>> halted), maybe you could enlighten me about the concept of percentage
>> when used with roasting. How would you measure this? Is there really
>> a reliable way to say when tea is 100% roasted, aside from when it's
>> turned to charcoal?
>> /Lew
>
[Stephane]
> Sorry for the confusion. You're correct to notice that there is a
> difference between oxidation and roasting. I misread Michael's post and
> caused this confusion. Actually, he didn't have Shou Cha then (if there
> was no roasting), but the more tradtional Baozhong (even though one
> might argue about the correct %age. In my opinion, it should be lower
> than 50%).

The vendor said 50%; at any rate, it was far darker
and less subtle than the true green lovely version I've
come to know and love. The leaves in question were
not highly roasted.
Michael

> I mean
> those posts (sick) that are flat and squat, with
> walls angled more or less straight and
> inward (from the bottom up) and with
> short straight spouts.

Guys, it's like this: I type with lightening
speed, using ganglia situated near my elbows.
My brain, such as there is of it, is seldom if
ever involved. Consequently, pots turn into
posts. Sorry. (Actually, come to think of it,
many of us contribute flat squat posts now
and again.)
Michael

> Should only be called Baozhong those semi-fermented teas based on
> qingxin (also called ruanzi or luanze) Oolong and processed with open
> leaves (not rolled) and come from the Wen Shan (northern Taiwan area).
> So there are 3 conditions to be fulfilled.
> Baozhong has become synonymous for very light oxidation and
> fermentation. Traditional Baozhong used to be medium oxidated. There
> are also various possible levels of roasting for Baozhong, but I won't
> go into the details.

Would the pinyin "luan" or "ruan" be the character that means ruined,
by chance? Anyway, the lightly oxidation follows the current popular
trend for qing xiang types of tea. The more deeply roasted teas, quite
excellent if you can get a good grade, are becoming harder and harder
to find. I had some shu xiang TGY that I found during the later part
of last winter that was simply wonderful. It was cooked so well that
it had a long lingering sweetness that seemed to flow through your
mouth, throat, and nose...it would last for hours it seemed. It's
unfortunate this style is now becoming less appreciated.


> Baozhong is usually graded depending on the quality, concentration and
> length of the leaves. There are low quality/grade baozhongs, but there
> are also very high grade baozhongs that belong to the best teas that
> the island produces.

I've heard of the baozhong being referred as luan (ruan) tea, meaning
ruined. It could be a pun, though. My students and friends all tell
me that baozhong simply is low quality; I'd be interested in finding
some of that high grade stuff that you describe.

> It's a question of letting the leaves open up in harmony during their
> brewing process. That's how you get the fragrance out from the leaves.
> This can be achieved by putting very few leaves in the pot: the leaves
> have enough space to unfold, but the tea may become too weak or you'd
> have to let it brew so long that they also release heavier flavors and
> astringency. So you have to add more leaves to be able to make shorter,
> more fragrant brews, but then you get them crammed. So you have to
> maximize the unfolding of the leaves by choosing a teapot shape that
> fits the unfolding of the leaves.

I've heard this said only by Taiwanese guys. I think it's just a
difference in style between the Taiwan and the mainland. On the
mainland, the tea guys care little about the tea becoming unfurled
completely, usually put more tea, and use shorter steeping periods.
The Taiwan guys usually put less tea with longer steeping times. I've
also experimented both ways myself and it usually ends up with the same
flavor and consistency no matter how you brew it, if you get the
variables right. Of course the argument will never end as to which way
is the "right" way to do it, but I tend to prefer the Chinese way
better because you can get more mileage out of your tea by just adding
a little bit more tea.

As for pot shape and all that, it goes hand in hand with the above. I
have noticed flavor differences between brewing in a gaiwan vs. brewing
with a zisha, but as for thin and thick clay types, that would be
debatable. I generally prefer to use a thicker clay for most teas to
try and keep the heat in longer. I think this would affect the xiang
wei (scent) more than only having different style pots.

Also what is the character for Pei or roasted? I got the one for
death.

Jim

Mydnight wrote:
....a little here...
> Would the pinyin "luan" or "ruan" be the character that means ruined,
> by chance?
....a little there...

Mydnight wrote:

> I've heard this said only by Taiwanese guys. I think it's just a
> difference in style between the Taiwan and the mainland. On the
> mainland, the tea guys care little about the tea becoming unfurled
> completely, usually put more tea, and use shorter steeping periods.
> The Taiwan guys usually put less tea with longer steeping times. I've
> also experimented both ways myself and it usually ends up with the same
> flavor and consistency no matter how you brew it, if you get the
> variables right. Of course the argument will never end as to which way
> is the "right" way to do it, but I tend to prefer the Chinese way
> better because you can get more mileage out of your tea by just adding
> a little bit more tea.

The best way to find out about these little differences in brewing
parameters is to have a group of people all brewing the same tea with
the same gaiwan and the same water. This happened to me during my tea
classes. What I found so fascinating is that we achieved pretty
different results, but that the professor always had the best! But the
quantity he would use would vary according to the tea. To make it
simple, the better his tea, the less leaves he used and the longer he
brewed them.

>
> As for pot shape and all that, it goes hand in hand with the above. I
> have noticed flavor differences between brewing in a gaiwan vs. brewing
> with a zisha, but as for thin and thick clay types, that would be
> debatable. I generally prefer to use a thicker clay for most teas to
> try and keep the heat in longer. I think this would affect the xiang
> wei (scent) more than only having different style pots.

The differences are not always big, but I find Oolongs quite sensitive
to changes. If you change something, there will be an impact on the
flavor.

Stéphane