Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
avoid?

I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.

Thanks for any info you can offer.

Robert

"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert
describe pescatarian please...
thanks

"Michael Balarama" > wrote in
:

>
> "Robert" > wrote in message
> 3.158...
>> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
>> to avoid?
>>
>> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
>> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
>> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
>> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
>> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
>> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
>> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
>> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
>> vegetarian safe foods.
>>
>> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>>
>> Robert
> describe pescatarian please...
> thanks
>
>
>

I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend of
mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.

Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.

Thanks again.
Robert

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "Michael Balarama" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Robert" > wrote in message
> > 3.158...
> >> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
> >> to avoid?
> >>
> >> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
> >> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
> >> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
> >> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
> >> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
> >> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
> >> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
> >> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
> >> vegetarian safe foods.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any info you can offer.
> >>
> >> Robert
> > describe pescatarian please...
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
> I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend
of
> mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
> means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
> enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.
>
> Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
> of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.
====================
But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods with
micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than any
food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the veggies.





>
> Thanks again.
> Robert

are you suggesting we eat nothing? or meat only? or everything? by taking a
stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example). i don't know what the
problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like. i
understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it seems
to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.


> ====================
> But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
> behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
with
> micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
any
> food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
> fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
> the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
veggies.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > Robert
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
====================
No

or meat only?
==============
no

or everything?
==============
yes

Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their lives
around food?



by taking a
> stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
> eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
==================
Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple rule
for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and suffering?
Propaganda? Brainwashing?


i don't know what the
> problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like.
i
> understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
> forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
seems
> to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
=====================
Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
understand? Prove you're claim above.


>
>
> > ====================
> > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
suffering
> > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
> with
> > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
> any
> > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than
the
> > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only
on
> > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> veggies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > > Robert
> >
> >
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
====================
No

or meat only?
==============
no

or everything?
==============
yes

Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their lives
around food?



by taking a
> stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
> eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
==================
Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple rule
for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and suffering?
Propaganda? Brainwashing?


i don't know what the
> problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like.
i
> understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
> forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
seems
> to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
=====================
Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
understand? Prove you're claim above.


>
>
> > ====================
> > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
suffering
> > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
> with
> > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
> any
> > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than
the
> > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only
on
> > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> veggies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > > Robert
> >
> >
>
>

Actually, you would be called a pesco-vegetarian. If you want to get
technical, if you still consume eggs, and dairy, you would be called a
pesco-lacto-ovo-vegetarian. (pesco means fish, lacto mean milk, ovo
means eggs). Just some info. for ya. Good luck going vegetarian.
- Matt

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "Michael Balarama" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Robert" > wrote in message
> > 3.158...
> >> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
> >> to avoid?
> >>
> >> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
> >> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
> >> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
> >> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
> >> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
> >> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
> >> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
> >> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
> >> vegetarian safe foods.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any info you can offer.
> >>
> >> Robert
> > describe pescatarian please...
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
> I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend
of
> mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
> means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
> enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.
>
> Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
> of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.
====================
But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods with
micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than any
food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the veggies.





>
> Thanks again.
> Robert

"Michael Balarama" > wrote in
:

>
> "Robert" > wrote in message
> 3.158...
>> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
>> to avoid?
>>
>> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
>> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
>> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
>> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
>> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
>> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
>> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
>> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
>> vegetarian safe foods.
>>
>> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>>
>> Robert
> describe pescatarian please...
> thanks
>
>
>

I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend of
mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.

Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.

Thanks again.
Robert

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert
describe pescatarian please...
thanks

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

Robert wrote:

> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.

Here's the most helpful thing I can offer: give it up.
Do not apply silly, ethics-free rules to your diet.
Do a little basic nutritional research on your own -
it's all out there; you don't need to be such a lazy
slug and ask others to do the heavy lifting for you -
and choose foods that provide solid nutrition.

You show symptoms of orthrexia, and you need to consult
a psychiatrist for it.

I'm always amazed at how passive "vegans" and
"vegan"-wannabes are. It's just inexcusable laziness.
Since they all started out on the same foot as you -
"Please HELLLLLLP meeeeeee!" - and since they haven't
gained any more sense of get-up-and-go initiative in
the interim, what make you think they know anything
useful at all?

In fact, there is nothing useful or morally respectable
about "veganism". It's a mushy, poorly developed
belief system that is devoid of ethics. It is entirely
about rules, rather than principle, but an effective
and honest ethics must be based on principles, and any
ethics rules must have a meaningful derivation from the
principles. "veganism" has no such linkage to principle.

"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
fallacy at its very co Denying the Antecedent. It
goes like this:

If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
and death of animals.

I do not consume animal parts;

therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
of animals.

This conclusion, of course, is patently false, as it
almost surely must be due to being arrived at
fallaciously. EATING the animal parts isn't what harms
them. In fact, even the most righteously vegetarian
diet causes massive harm to animals. Animals are
chopped up and shredded in the course of producing
vegetable crops - known as collateral animal deaths in
agriculture - and are even deliberately killed, both in
production and in storage; for example, rodents are
killed by the millions at grain storage facilities.

"veganism" is an irrational response to an imaginary
ethical problem. It is not unethical to kill animals.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:27:43 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:

>"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
>fallacy at its very co

No, it doesn't. You commit the fallacy by building a
false argument and then attribute it to vegans as
their's when it isn't.

>Denying the Antecedent. It goes like this:
>
> If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
> and death of animals.

This premise is false, since meat can be sourced without
causing any suffering and deaths of animals; it can be
scavenged from animals that died from natural causes.

> I do not consume animal parts;
>
> therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
> of animals.
>
>This conclusion, of course, is patently false,

And that's why you claim it to be the vegan's argument:
because it's a false argument. In short, you've built a
straw man with a faulty premise instead of dealing with
a more genuine argument vegan's might follow similar to;

1) If I abstain from farmed animal products, then I cause
less farmed animals to suffer and die.
2) I abstain from farmed animal products
therefore
3) I cause less farmed animals to suffer and die.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:27:43 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:

>"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
>fallacy at its very co

No, it doesn't. You commit the fallacy by building a
false argument and then attribute it to vegans as
their's when it isn't.

>Denying the Antecedent. It goes like this:
>
> If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
> and death of animals.

This premise is false, since meat can be sourced without
causing any suffering and deaths of animals; it can be
scavenged from animals that died from natural causes.

> I do not consume animal parts;
>
> therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
> of animals.
>
>This conclusion, of course, is patently false,

And that's why you claim it to be the vegan's argument:
because it's a false argument. In short, you've built a
straw man with a faulty premise instead of dealing with
a more genuine argument vegan's might follow similar to;

1) If I abstain from farmed animal products, then I cause
less farmed animals to suffer and die.
2) I abstain from farmed animal products
therefore
3) I cause less farmed animals to suffer and die.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:34:47 GMT, Robert > wrote:

>Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
>avoid?
>
>I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
>what foods have hidden meat products in them.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:
__________________________________________________ _______
Tires, Surgical sutures, Matches, Soaps, Photographic film,
Cosmetics, Shaving cream, Paints, Candles, Crayon/Chalk,
Toothpaste, Deodorants, Mouthwash, Paper, Upholstery,
Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer,
Antifreeze

http://www.aif.org/lvstock.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic,
Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin,
Pancreatin, Thrombin, Vasopressin, Vitamin B-12, Asphalt,
auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil, high-performance
greases, brake fluid

http://www.teachfree.com/student/wow_that_cow.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
contact-lens care products, glues for paper and cardboard
cartons, bookbinding glue, clarification of wines, Hemostats,
sunscreens and sunblocks, dental floss, hairspray, inks, PVC

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Explosives, Solvents, Industrial Oils, Industrial Lubricants,
Stearic Acid, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Syringes,
Gelatin Capsules, Bandage Strips, Combs and Toothbrushes,
Emery Boards and Cloth, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood and Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Adhesive Tape, Abrasives, Bone Charcoal for High
Grade Steel, Steel Ball Bearings

http://www.sheepusa.org/environment/products.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
consume animal products from animals they think are
raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
more such animals in the future.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of servings of dairy
products. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides,
and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields,
one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve
more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass
raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products contribute to less
wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and decent lives for
cattle. ·

>Like Gelatin or chips fried
>in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
>instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
>foods that the average person might not suspect?

The following meat substitutes--and probably many others--
contain egg whites, which contribute to battery farming:

Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
and Prosage Patties

Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties

Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties

Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets

>I've heard some Pizza
>chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
>Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
>mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
>Thanks for any info you can offer.

What's your goal? Is it just to be a veg*n, or is it to have some
impact on animals? If so, what impact do you want to have? You
can contribute to decent lives for farm animals with your lifestyle,
but *not!* if your lifestyle is vegan. Another fact to consider is the
fact that some types of meat involve far less animal deaths than
some types of vegetable products.
· From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one meal of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of meals
derived from grass raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products
contribute to less wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for cattle than soy or rice products. ·

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they know they are
doing something wrong by eating rights-holding animals.
You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the death of a cabbage is morally meaningless. You're
an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying to morally
justify your diet on animals in this way.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they intuitively know
they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
rights-holding farmed animals.

You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
to morally justify the life and death of your food.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>
>[..]
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>more such animals in the future.
>
>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>you use,

They know that what I point out is true. So do you.

>and they use it because they intuitively know
>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>rights-holding farmed animals.

That could only be true if there were rights-holding
farmed animals, but there are none.

>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>cabbages,

No. You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
lives and deaths of billions of animals.

>do you, and that's because we all know that
>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>to morally justify the life and death of your food.

No Gonad. I believe that it's ethically equivalent or
superior to contribute to decent lives for farm animals,
as it is to contribute to none at all. We know you "ARAs"
don't feel that way, so it's incredibly stupid of you to say
I'm in favor of "AR". I'm very much in favor of decent
Animal Welfare, which is something you "ARAs" want
to prevent. You certainly will NOT contribute to decent
AW for food animals with you diet, and you make it very
obvious that you don't want anyone else to either.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:16:27 GMT, wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>[..]
>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>>more such animals in the future.
>>
>>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>>you use,
>
> They know that what I point out is true.

I've no doubt they believe it.

> So do you.

No, I don't.

>>and they use it because they intuitively know
>>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>>rights-holding farmed animals.
>
> That could only be true if there were rights-holding
>farmed animals, but there are none.

They and you believe they have rights, else you wouldn't
be trying to morally justify your diet on them. I remember
you once tried to tell me my rights don't trump the rights
of unborn animals, so what does that say about your false
stance against the proposition of rights for the animals
already existing, comrade?

What gives you the right to want to deprive
them [unborn animals] of having what life they
could have?
David Harrison- 10/12/2001

>>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>>cabbages,
>
> No.

Then why do you argue we should eat farmed animals
on the basis that such a diet provides life for more farmed
animals, if the lives of farmed animals, like cabbages have
no moral meaning to you?

>You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
>lives and deaths of billions of animals.

Yes, I do.

>>do you, and that's because we all know that
>>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>>to morally justify the life and death of your food.
>
> No

Yes, Harrison. You would not be trying to morally justify
something that didn't warrant such a moral justification, so
it's patently obvious you intuitively know animals hold a right
against you not to be farmed, and you justify violating this
perceived right by declaring you and the beast both benefit
from farming it, just as a rueful slaver would to his critic.

>Gonad.

I'm Derek.

>I believe that it's ethically equivalent or
>superior to contribute to decent lives for farm animals,
>as it is to contribute to none at all.

Then you must also sanction slavery and the raising of
children for food, research models and clothing material.

>We know you "ARAs" don't feel that way,

Exactly! We don't think the way you do in those respects.

>so it's incredibly stupid of you to say I'm in favor of "AR".

You're just misguided and a bit extreme in your AR views,
that's all. For example, even I wouldn't declare an unborn
animal has such rights that mine can't trump, as you did.

What gives you the right to want to deprive
them [unborn animals] of having what life they
could have?
David Harrison- 10/12/2001

>I'm very much in favor of decent
>Animal Welfare, which is something you "ARAs" want
>to prevent.

How is it in an animal's interest or welfare to be kept
on farms and slaughtered when just in its prime of life?
Let's believe you ARE a welfarist for just a moment.
Aren't you troubled by the fact that your view and use
of the term "welfare" can be used by those actually
opposed to the proposition?

>You certainly will NOT contribute to decent
>AW for food animals with you diet, and you make it very
>obvious that you don't want anyone else to either.

That's right.

wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>[..]
>>
>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>>more such animals in the future.
>>
>>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>>you use,
>
>
> They know that what I point out is true.

We know that what you say, not "point out", is
worthless bullshit.

>
>>and they use it because they intuitively know
>>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>>rights-holding farmed animals.
>
>
> That could only be true if there were rights-holding
> farmed animals, but there are none.
>
>
>>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>>cabbages,
>
>
> No. You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
> lives and deaths of billions of animals.

And you argue we should all eat meat to CAUSE the lives
of billions of animals. Your advice is stupid.

>
>
>>do you, and that's because we all know that
>>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>>to morally justify the life and death of your food.
>
>
> No

Yes. At heart, ****wit, you are an "ara".

wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>[..]
>>
>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>>more such animals in the future.
>>
>>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>>you use,
>
>
> They know that what I point out is true.

We know that what you say, not "point out", is
worthless bullshit.

>
>>and they use it because they intuitively know
>>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>>rights-holding farmed animals.
>
>
> That could only be true if there were rights-holding
> farmed animals, but there are none.
>
>
>>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>>cabbages,
>
>
> No. You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
> lives and deaths of billions of animals.

And you argue we should all eat meat to CAUSE the lives
of billions of animals. Your advice is stupid.

>
>
>>do you, and that's because we all know that
>>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>>to morally justify the life and death of your food.
>
>
> No

Yes. At heart, ****wit, you are an "ara".

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>
>[..]
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>more such animals in the future.
>
>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>you use,

They know that what I point out is true. So do you.

>and they use it because they intuitively know
>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>rights-holding farmed animals.

That could only be true if there were rights-holding
farmed animals, but there are none.

>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>cabbages,

No. You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
lives and deaths of billions of animals.

>do you, and that's because we all know that
>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>to morally justify the life and death of your food.

No Gonad. I believe that it's ethically equivalent or
superior to contribute to decent lives for farm animals,
as it is to contribute to none at all. We know you "ARAs"
don't feel that way, so it's incredibly stupid of you to say
I'm in favor of "AR". I'm very much in favor of decent
Animal Welfare, which is something you "ARAs" want
to prevent. You certainly will NOT contribute to decent
AW for food animals with you diet, and you make it very
obvious that you don't want anyone else to either.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they intuitively know
they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
rights-holding farmed animals.

You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
to morally justify the life and death of your food.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they know they are
doing something wrong by eating rights-holding animals.
You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the death of a cabbage is morally meaningless. You're
an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying to morally
justify your diet on animals in this way.

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

Robert
Follow this link from the Vegetarian Society of Great Britain as a start.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/stumbling.html

A lot of people here wish you luck in your change to a healthier diet, and
it will give the fish a break too!

Chris




"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert

Robert
Follow this link from the Vegetarian Society of Great Britain as a start.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/stumbling.html

A lot of people here wish you luck in your change to a healthier diet, and
it will give the fish a break too!

Chris




"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert

Robert
Follow this link from the Vegetarian Society of Great Britain as a start.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/stumbling.html

A lot of people here wish you luck in your change to a healthier diet, and
it will give the fish a break too!

Chris




"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert