Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
avoid?

I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.

Thanks for any info you can offer.

Robert

"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert
describe pescatarian please...
thanks

"Robert" > wrote in message
3.158...
> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>
> Robert
describe pescatarian please...
thanks

"Michael Balarama" > wrote in
:

>
> "Robert" > wrote in message
> 3.158...
>> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
>> to avoid?
>>
>> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
>> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
>> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
>> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
>> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
>> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
>> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
>> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
>> vegetarian safe foods.
>>
>> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>>
>> Robert
> describe pescatarian please...
> thanks
>
>
>

I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend of
mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.

Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.

Thanks again.
Robert

"Michael Balarama" > wrote in
:

>
> "Robert" > wrote in message
> 3.158...
>> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
>> to avoid?
>>
>> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
>> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
>> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
>> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
>> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
>> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
>> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
>> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
>> vegetarian safe foods.
>>
>> Thanks for any info you can offer.
>>
>> Robert
> describe pescatarian please...
> thanks
>
>
>

I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend of
mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.

Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.

Thanks again.
Robert

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

Hi Robert,

Here's a good site that lists some vegan friendly foods available at a variety
of chain restaurants:

http://www.sword2skyvegan.net/selections.html

Alot of recipes change over time so it's best to contact a restaurant or
manufacturer of a food product to find out whether they are using animal
derived ingredients or not.

Key your specifics into Google and you'll likely find alot more info
online...Good Luck!

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "Michael Balarama" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Robert" > wrote in message
> > 3.158...
> >> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
> >> to avoid?
> >>
> >> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
> >> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
> >> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
> >> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
> >> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
> >> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
> >> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
> >> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
> >> vegetarian safe foods.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any info you can offer.
> >>
> >> Robert
> > describe pescatarian please...
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
> I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend
of
> mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
> means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
> enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.
>
> Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
> of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.
====================
But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods with
micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than any
food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the veggies.





>
> Thanks again.
> Robert

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "Michael Balarama" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Robert" > wrote in message
> > 3.158...
> >> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods
> >> to avoid?
> >>
> >> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to
> >> know what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or
> >> chips fried in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants
> >> use animal fat instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden"
> >> animal products used in foods that the average person might not
> >> suspect? I've heard some Pizza chains use beef products in their
> >> pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurante uses a beef base in
> >> their rice, but their web site doesn't mention anything about
> >> vegetarian safe foods.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any info you can offer.
> >>
> >> Robert
> > describe pescatarian please...
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
>
> I still eat seafood. I would be a vegetarian but just last year a friend
of
> mine introduced me to the wonderful world of sushi. I believe "Pescar"
> means "to fish". Therefore I am a pescatarian. I'll be a vegetarian soon
> enough. and eventually a vegan. Baby steps man, baby steps.
>
> Anyway, I don't want this thread to get side tracked. I just want to know
> of "hidden" meat products that are present in common foods.
====================
But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods with
micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than any
food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the veggies.





>
> Thanks again.
> Robert

are you suggesting we eat nothing? or meat only? or everything? by taking a
stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example). i don't know what the
problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like. i
understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it seems
to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.


> ====================
> But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and suffering
> behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
with
> micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
any
> food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than the
> fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only on
> the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
veggies.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > Robert
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
====================
No

or meat only?
==============
no

or everything?
==============
yes

Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their lives
around food?



by taking a
> stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
> eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
==================
Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple rule
for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and suffering?
Propaganda? Brainwashing?


i don't know what the
> problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like.
i
> understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
> forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
seems
> to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
=====================
Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
understand? Prove you're claim above.


>
>
> > ====================
> > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
suffering
> > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
> with
> > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
> any
> > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than
the
> > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only
on
> > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> veggies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > > Robert
> >
> >
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
====================
No

or meat only?
==============
no

or everything?
==============
yes

Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their lives
around food?



by taking a
> stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person to
> eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
==================
Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple rule
for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and suffering?
Propaganda? Brainwashing?


i don't know what the
> problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds like.
i
> understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
> forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
seems
> to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
=====================
Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
understand? Prove you're claim above.


>
>
> > ====================
> > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
suffering
> > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
> with
> > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel than
> any
> > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than
the
> > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only
on
> > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> veggies.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > > Robert
> >
> >
>
>

you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you aren't
contributing. that's my proof. i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing much
of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me. if
that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
something else. what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is concrete.
proove anything.


"rick etter" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> ====================
> No
>
> or meat only?
> ==============
> no
>
> or everything?
> ==============
> yes
>
> Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their lives
> around food?
>
>
>
> by taking a
> > stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person
to
> > eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
> ==================
> Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple rule
> for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
> meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and suffering?
> Propaganda? Brainwashing?
>
>
> i don't know what the
> > problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds
like.
> i
> > understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite the
> > forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
> seems
> > to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
> =====================
> Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
> understand? Prove you're claim above.
>
>
> >
> >
> > > ====================
> > > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
> suffering
> > > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that foods
> > with
> > > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel
than
> > any
> > > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering than
> the
> > > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus only
> on
> > > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> > veggies.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again.
> > > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
aren't
> contributing. that's my proof.
=====================
Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products of
those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that others are
eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and leave to rot? You
are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death and suffering of animals
for your veggies. You *could* reduce those numbers by selecting the right
kinds of meat, but since you have that simple rule/ simple mind thing down
so pat I guess you religion has taken over.


i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing
much
> of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.
====================
That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals than if
you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never proven this
delusion, again.

if
> that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
> diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
> something else. what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is
concrete.
> proove anything.
================
What's amazing is how you've managed to ignore the truth and wrap it into
the typical vegan delusions. The problem is that you are killing more
animals with your diet, hypocrite.

>
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> > ====================
> > No
> >
> > or meat only?
> > ==============
> > no
> >
> > or everything?
> > ==============
> > yes
> >
> > Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
lives
> > around food?
> >
> >
> >
> > by taking a
> > > stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person
> to
> > > eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
> > ==================
> > Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple
rule
> > for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
> > meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and
suffering?
> > Propaganda? Brainwashing?
> >
> >
> > i don't know what the
> > > problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds
> like.
> > i
> > > understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite
the
> > > forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
> > seems
> > > to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
> > =====================
> > Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
> > understand? Prove you're claim above.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ====================
> > > > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
> > suffering
> > > > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that
foods
> > > with
> > > > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel
> than
> > > any
> > > > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > > > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering
than
> > the
> > > > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus
only
> > on
> > > > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> > > veggies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again.
> > > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
aren't
> contributing. that's my proof.
=====================
Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products of
those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that others are
eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and leave to rot? You
are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death and suffering of animals
for your veggies. You *could* reduce those numbers by selecting the right
kinds of meat, but since you have that simple rule/ simple mind thing down
so pat I guess you religion has taken over.


i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing
much
> of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.
====================
That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals than if
you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never proven this
delusion, again.

if
> that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
> diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
> something else. what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is
concrete.
> proove anything.
================
What's amazing is how you've managed to ignore the truth and wrap it into
the typical vegan delusions. The problem is that you are killing more
animals with your diet, hypocrite.

>
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> > ====================
> > No
> >
> > or meat only?
> > ==============
> > no
> >
> > or everything?
> > ==============
> > yes
> >
> > Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
lives
> > around food?
> >
> >
> >
> > by taking a
> > > stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the person
> to
> > > eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
> > ==================
> > Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple
rule
> > for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that excluding
> > meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and
suffering?
> > Propaganda? Brainwashing?
> >
> >
> > i don't know what the
> > > problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds
> like.
> > i
> > > understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite
the
> > > forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but it
> > seems
> > > to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
> > =====================
> > Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
> > understand? Prove you're claim above.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ====================
> > > > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
> > suffering
> > > > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that
foods
> > > with
> > > > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel
> than
> > > any
> > > > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you have
> > > > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering
than
> > the
> > > > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus
only
> > on
> > > > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from the
> > > veggies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again.
> > > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"rick etter" > wrote in
link.net:

>
> "hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> ====================
> No
>
> or meat only?
> ==============
> no
>
> or everything?
> ==============
> yes
>
> Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
> lives around food?
>
>

Exactly! People should be free to eat what they want....and free to NOT eat
what they don't want. Therefore, using YOUR own logic, your presence in
this newsgroup is unwarranted. YOU are the one making a big deal out of
what others choose to eat. Not me.

Have a nice day.
Robert

"rick etter" > wrote in
link.net:

>
> "hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> ====================
> No
>
> or meat only?
> ==============
> no
>
> or everything?
> ==============
> yes
>
> Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
> lives around food?
>
>

Exactly! People should be free to eat what they want....and free to NOT eat
what they don't want. Therefore, using YOUR own logic, your presence in
this newsgroup is unwarranted. YOU are the one making a big deal out of
what others choose to eat. Not me.

Have a nice day.
Robert

you obviously have no arguement. less meat consumed, less animals
produced/bred. period. when you can see past your own 'infallible' ideas,
try again. until then, enjoy being right.

"rick etter" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
> aren't
> > contributing. that's my proof.
> =====================
> Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products of
> those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that others are
> eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and leave to rot?
You
> are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death and suffering of
animals
> for your veggies. You *could* reduce those numbers by selecting the right
> kinds of meat, but since you have that simple rule/ simple mind thing down
> so pat I guess you religion has taken over.
>
>
> i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> > working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing
> much
> > of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.
> ====================
> That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals than
if
> you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never proven this
> delusion, again.
>
> if
> > that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
> > diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
> > something else. what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is
> concrete.
> > proove anything.
> ================
> What's amazing is how you've managed to ignore the truth and wrap it into
> the typical vegan delusions. The problem is that you are killing more
> animals with your diet, hypocrite.
>
> >
> >
> > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > >
> > > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> > > ====================
> > > No
> > >
> > > or meat only?
> > > ==============
> > > no
> > >
> > > or everything?
> > > ==============
> > > yes
> > >
> > > Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
> lives
> > > around food?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > by taking a
> > > > stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the
person
> > to
> > > > eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
> > > ==================
> > > Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a simple
> rule
> > > for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that
excluding
> > > meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and
> suffering?
> > > Propaganda? Brainwashing?
> > >
> > >
> > > i don't know what the
> > > > problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it sounds
> > like.
> > > i
> > > > understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't quite
> the
> > > > forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it. but
it
> > > seems
> > > > to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
> > > =====================
> > > Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't you
> > > understand? Prove you're claim above.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ====================
> > > > > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
> > > suffering
> > > > > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that
> foods
> > > > with
> > > > > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less cruel
> > than
> > > > any
> > > > > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you
have
> > > > > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering
> than
> > > the
> > > > > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy, focus
> only
> > > on
> > > > > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from
the
> > > > veggies.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again.
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"rick etter" > wrote in
link.net:

>
> "hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
> aren't
>> contributing. that's my proof.
> =====================
> Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products
> of those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that
> others are eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and
> leave to rot? You are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death
> and suffering of animals for your veggies. You *could* reduce those
> numbers by selecting the right kinds of meat, but since you have that
> simple rule/ simple mind thing down so pat I guess you religion has
> taken over.
>
>
> i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
>> working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not
>> doing
> much
>> of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of
>> me.
> ====================
> That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals
> than if you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never
> proven this delusion, again.
>

Please explain this to me. You mentioned this earlier. I am honestly
curious as to what this statement means. How am I killing *more* animals by
eating beans, avacodos, onions, peppers, fruits, etc.... Please explain.
I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about your statement.

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> you obviously have no arguement. less meat consumed, less animals
> produced/bred. period.
===========================
But not fewer animals killed. When you can get past your brainwashing, come
on back, killer.


when you can see past your own 'infallible' ideas,
> try again. until then, enjoy being right.
=================
Yep. The truth is the truth, hypocrite.

>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
> > aren't
> > > contributing. that's my proof.
> > =====================
> > Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products
of
> > those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that others
are
> > eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and leave to rot?
> You
> > are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death and suffering of
> animals
> > for your veggies. You *could* reduce those numbers by selecting the
right
> > kinds of meat, but since you have that simple rule/ simple mind thing
down
> > so pat I guess you religion has taken over.
> >
> >
> > i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> > > working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing
> > much
> > > of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.
> > ====================
> > That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals
than
> if
> > you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never proven this
> > delusion, again.
> >
> > if
> > > that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is
my
> > > diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
> > > something else. what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is
> > concrete.
> > > proove anything.
> > ================
> > What's amazing is how you've managed to ignore the truth and wrap it
into
> > the typical vegan delusions. The problem is that you are killing more
> > animals with your diet, hypocrite.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > link.net...
> > > >
> > > > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> > > > ====================
> > > > No
> > > >
> > > > or meat only?
> > > > ==============
> > > > no
> > > >
> > > > or everything?
> > > > ==============
> > > > yes
> > > >
> > > > Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
> > lives
> > > > around food?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > by taking a
> > > > > stance in refusing animal products, we're doing better than the
> person
> > > to
> > > > > eat the fish AND the rice (to use your example).
> > > > ==================
> > > > Prove that little delusion. It's a ly. All vegans have is a
simple
> > rule
> > > > for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' Why do you think that
> excluding
> > > > meat automatically means you are causing less animal death and
> > suffering?
> > > > Propaganda? Brainwashing?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i don't know what the
> > > > > problem is. well maybe i do... too many preaching vegans, it
sounds
> > > like.
> > > > i
> > > > > understand that. it ****es me off just as much, but this isn't
quite
> > the
> > > > > forum for that. if you have something to contribute, go for it.
but
> it
> > > > seems
> > > > > to me all you're doing is being a dickhead.
> > > > =====================
> > > > Why? because you don't like the message? what part of it don't
you
> > > > understand? Prove you're claim above.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ====================
> > > > > > But like most vegans, you don't want to know about the death and
> > > > suffering
> > > > > > behind the foods you want to eat, right? Why do you assume that
> > foods
> > > > > with
> > > > > > micro-bits of animals in them are somehow automatically less
cruel
> > > than
> > > > > any
> > > > > > food without any bits in it? I'd say that the bed of rice you
> have
> > > > > > underneath your fish has caused more overall death and suffering
> > than
> > > > the
> > > > > > fish on top does. But then, that's the typical veg*n ploy,
focus
> > only
> > > > on
> > > > > > the foods that include meat, and ignore the blood dripping from
> the
> > > > > veggies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again.
> > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "rick etter" > wrote in
> link.net:
>
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
> > aren't
> >> contributing. that's my proof.
> > =====================
> > Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products
> > of those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that
> > others are eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and
> > leave to rot? You are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death
> > and suffering of animals for your veggies. You *could* reduce those
> > numbers by selecting the right kinds of meat, but since you have that
> > simple rule/ simple mind thing down so pat I guess you religion has
> > taken over.
> >
> >
> > i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> >> working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not
> >> doing
> > much
> >> of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of
> >> me.
> > ====================
> > That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals
> > than if you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never
> > proven this delusion, again.
> >
>
> Please explain this to me. You mentioned this earlier. I am honestly
> curious as to what this statement means. How am I killing *more* animals
by
> eating beans, avacodos, onions, peppers, fruits, etc.... Please explain.
> I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about your statement.
======================
Production methods of crops. All are machine intensive, relying on the
petro-chemical industry in all phases of that production.
there is no way you can deny that. All these crops require large tracts of
land. Plowing, seeding, spraying, and harvesting.
These fields become ideal breeding grounds for a number of animals, allowing
their populations to explode. Then you take all the easy food and cover
that provided for this excess breeding. The animals that don't get killed
in the machinery start dying from starvation and predation. Hardly an easy,
humane way to die.
Replacing some of these foods with the right meats can lower your overall
footprints on animal death and suffering, and environmental damage.




Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals are dying...
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/

To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "rick etter" > wrote in
> link.net:
>
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you
> > aren't
> >> contributing. that's my proof.
> > =====================
> > Doesn't work. Any number of other things you use use the by-products
> > of those animals. Besides, why only the concern for animals that
> > others are eating, and no concern for the animals that you kill and
> > leave to rot? You are contributing to massive, brutal, inhumane death
> > and suffering of animals for your veggies. You *could* reduce those
> > numbers by selecting the right kinds of meat, but since you have that
> > simple rule/ simple mind thing down so pat I guess you religion has
> > taken over.
> >
> >
> > i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
> >> working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not
> >> doing
> > much
> >> of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of
> >> me.
> > ====================
> > That's the point idiot. You're probably killing even *more* animals
> > than if you just ate the right kinds of meat. Plus, you've never
> > proven this delusion, again.
> >
>
> Please explain this to me. You mentioned this earlier. I am honestly
> curious as to what this statement means. How am I killing *more* animals
by
> eating beans, avacodos, onions, peppers, fruits, etc.... Please explain.
> I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about your statement.
======================
Production methods of crops. All are machine intensive, relying on the
petro-chemical industry in all phases of that production.
there is no way you can deny that. All these crops require large tracts of
land. Plowing, seeding, spraying, and harvesting.
These fields become ideal breeding grounds for a number of animals, allowing
their populations to explode. Then you take all the easy food and cover
that provided for this excess breeding. The animals that don't get killed
in the machinery start dying from starvation and predation. Hardly an easy,
humane way to die.
Replacing some of these foods with the right meats can lower your overall
footprints on animal death and suffering, and environmental damage.




Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals are dying...
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/

To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm

"Robert" > wrote in message
93.32...
> "rick etter" > wrote in
> link.net:
>
> >
> > "hamilton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> are you suggesting we eat nothing?
> > ====================
> > No
> >
> > or meat only?
> > ==============
> > no
> >
> > or everything?
> > ==============
> > yes
> >
> > Why can't people just eat what they want, and not try to build their
> > lives around food?
> >
> >
>
> Exactly! People should be free to eat what they want....and free to NOT
eat
> what they don't want. Therefore, using YOUR own logic, your presence in
> this newsgroup is unwarranted. YOU are the one making a big deal out of
> what others choose to eat. Not me.
=======================
Nope. I'm making no comment at all on what you eat. I'm commenting on the
lys and delusions surrounding the claims of *why* you eat what you eat.
Besides, read up of veganism around here, there are plenty of vegan food
nazis that *would* tell us that we cannot eat meat if given the chance. Not
one of us meat-eaters has ever tried to ban veggies.


>
> Have a nice day.
> Robert

as i said. come back when you have an arguement

"hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> as i said. come back when you have an arguement
>
>

It is you that have nothing to prove your idiotic claims, killer.




Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals are dying...
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/

To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm

Actually, you would be called a pesco-vegetarian. If you want to get
technical, if you still consume eggs, and dairy, you would be called a
pesco-lacto-ovo-vegetarian. (pesco means fish, lacto mean milk, ovo
means eggs). Just some info. for ya. Good luck going vegetarian.
- Matt

"katie" > wrote in message
news
> ...
> > >
> > > Please explain this to me. You mentioned this earlier. I am honestly
> > > curious as to what this statement means. How am I killing *more*
animals
> > by
> > > eating beans, avacodos, onions, peppers, fruits, etc.... Please
explain.
> > > I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about your statement.
> > ======================
> > Production methods of crops. All are machine intensive, relying on the
> > petro-chemical industry in all phases of that production.
> > there is no way you can deny that. All these crops require large
tracts
> of
> > land. Plowing, seeding, spraying, and harvesting.
> > These fields become ideal breeding grounds for a number of animals,
> allowing
> > their populations to explode. Then you take all the easy food and cover
> > that provided for this excess breeding. The animals that don't get
killed
> > in the machinery start dying from starvation and predation. Hardly an
> easy,
> > humane way to die.
> > Replacing some of these foods with the right meats can lower your
overall
> > footprints on animal death and suffering, and environmental damage.
> >
> replacing some of THESE foods with the RIGHT meats seems to be the key
here.
> i don't think that most people in north america eat the RIGHT meats,
======================
Many people don't eat right, period. Regardless of the chosen diet.


i think
> they eat the ones produced cruelly and fed with the nasty, monocropped
> produce you are describing.
==================
So? The point is that the supposed 'thinking' people here make absurd
claims about their veggie diet, and do no more research into it than the
other people you're talking about.

and who says that you have to eat those kinds
> of vegetable crops?
====================
You said it above about meat. It applies equally to veggies. Most people
eat only mass produced, mono-culture crops. Even the vegans here consume
this for the most part. They skip on down to the supermart, all the while
ranting about the evils of eating meat. They've never taken inventory of
the foods they eat themselves. They have no care to know which of their
foods cause more/less death and suffering to animals, because their religion
of veganism tells them that all veggies out do all meats. It's just a
delusion.

what if you purchase organically grown produce from a
> small local farm?
================
That's a start, but like you said above, most people don't do that, even the
vegans here. Instead, they focus on ranting about the foods that others are
eating, and ignore that they could make better choices.

then you're contributing to the local economy too, bonus
> : ) or grow a lot of your own food in your own backyard?
====================
Not anymore. The garden got too big, and too labor intensive. It's mostly
just in flowers now.

which is tasty and
> rewarding. wouldn't you then kill the absolute least, by both limiting
the
> direct killing of animals and the indirect 'collateral deaths?'
=================
But again, like *you said above, most people don't eat that way, even the
vegans here on usenet. My point is that by substituting some of your
typical store-bought veggies with the 'right' kinds of meat, you can reduce
your impact and not have to change your current lifestyle. growing anywhere
near the amount of veggies you'd need would take most of your time, and
you'd still not have all you need except unless you live in one of a very
few places.
The whole point is that vegans rant and spew about how people kill animals
for their diet, and that by not eating animals automatically means causing
less animal deth and suffering, no matter what you replace the meat with.
that just isn't true. Are their vegan diets that would be better than a
meat-included diet? Sure, but there are no vegans here on usenet that are
any where near that self-sufficient.




> ...
>
>

"rick etter" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "katie" > wrote in message
> news
> > ...
> > > >
> > > > Please explain this to me. You mentioned this earlier. I am honestly
> > > > curious as to what this statement means. How am I killing *more*
> animals
> > > by
> > > > eating beans, avacodos, onions, peppers, fruits, etc.... Please
> explain.
> > > > I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about your statement.
> > > ======================
> > > Production methods of crops. All are machine intensive, relying on
the
> > > petro-chemical industry in all phases of that production.
> > > there is no way you can deny that. All these crops require large
> tracts
> > of
> > > land. Plowing, seeding, spraying, and harvesting.
> > > These fields become ideal breeding grounds for a number of animals,
> > allowing
> > > their populations to explode. Then you take all the easy food and
cover
> > > that provided for this excess breeding. The animals that don't get
> killed
> > > in the machinery start dying from starvation and predation. Hardly an
> > easy,
> > > humane way to die.
> > > Replacing some of these foods with the right meats can lower your
> overall
> > > footprints on animal death and suffering, and environmental damage.
> > >
> > replacing some of THESE foods with the RIGHT meats seems to be the key
> here.
> > i don't think that most people in north america eat the RIGHT meats,
> ======================
> Many people don't eat right, period. Regardless of the chosen diet.
>
>
> i think
> > they eat the ones produced cruelly and fed with the nasty, monocropped
> > produce you are describing.
> ==================
> So? The point is that the supposed 'thinking' people here make absurd
> claims about their veggie diet, and do no more research into it than the
> other people you're talking about.
>
> and who says that you have to eat those kinds
> > of vegetable crops?
> ====================
> You said it above about meat. It applies equally to veggies. Most people
> eat only mass produced, mono-culture crops. Even the vegans here consume
> this for the most part. They skip on down to the supermart, all the while
> ranting about the evils of eating meat. They've never taken inventory of
> the foods they eat themselves. They have no care to know which of their
> foods cause more/less death and suffering to animals, because their
religion
> of veganism tells them that all veggies out do all meats. It's just a
> delusion.
>
> what if you purchase organically grown produce from a
> > small local farm?
> ================
> That's a start, but like you said above, most people don't do that, even
the
> vegans here. Instead, they focus on ranting about the foods that others
are
> eating, and ignore that they could make better choices.
>
> then you're contributing to the local economy too, bonus
> > : ) or grow a lot of your own food in your own backyard?
> ====================
> Not anymore. The garden got too big, and too labor intensive. It's
mostly
> just in flowers now.
>
> which is tasty and
> > rewarding. wouldn't you then kill the absolute least, by both limiting
> the
> > direct killing of animals and the indirect 'collateral deaths?'
> =================
> But again, like *you said above, most people don't eat that way, even the
> vegans here on usenet. My point is that by substituting some of your
> typical store-bought veggies with the 'right' kinds of meat, you can
reduce
> your impact and not have to change your current lifestyle. growing
anywhere
> near the amount of veggies you'd need would take most of your time, and
> you'd still not have all you need except unless you live in one of a very
> few places.
> The whole point is that vegans rant and spew about how people kill animals
> for their diet, and that by not eating animals automatically means causing
> less animal deth and suffering, no matter what you replace the meat with.
> that just isn't true. Are their vegan diets that would be better than a
> meat-included diet? Sure, but there are no vegans here on usenet that are
> any where near that self-sufficient.
>
don't worry, not all vegans think that a vegan diet is automatically better
than a meaty diet. like me, for example. some of us actually do our
research and don't fall for every gospel in the book o' veg without thinking
about it for ourselves. and a lot of folks, whether they eat meat or not,
actually do educate themselves about this stuff and make an effort to either
grow their own veggies and/or buy local. so never fear, the whole world
isn't entirely ignorant and sucky ()

Robert wrote:

> Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
> avoid?
>
> I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
> what foods have hidden meat products in them. Like Gelatin or chips fried
> in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
> instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
> foods that the average person might not suspect? I've heard some Pizza
> chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
> Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
> mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
> Thanks for any info you can offer.

Here's the most helpful thing I can offer: give it up.
Do not apply silly, ethics-free rules to your diet.
Do a little basic nutritional research on your own -
it's all out there; you don't need to be such a lazy
slug and ask others to do the heavy lifting for you -
and choose foods that provide solid nutrition.

You show symptoms of orthrexia, and you need to consult
a psychiatrist for it.

I'm always amazed at how passive "vegans" and
"vegan"-wannabes are. It's just inexcusable laziness.
Since they all started out on the same foot as you -
"Please HELLLLLLP meeeeeee!" - and since they haven't
gained any more sense of get-up-and-go initiative in
the interim, what make you think they know anything
useful at all?

In fact, there is nothing useful or morally respectable
about "veganism". It's a mushy, poorly developed
belief system that is devoid of ethics. It is entirely
about rules, rather than principle, but an effective
and honest ethics must be based on principles, and any
ethics rules must have a meaningful derivation from the
principles. "veganism" has no such linkage to principle.

"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
fallacy at its very co Denying the Antecedent. It
goes like this:

If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
and death of animals.

I do not consume animal parts;

therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
of animals.

This conclusion, of course, is patently false, as it
almost surely must be due to being arrived at
fallaciously. EATING the animal parts isn't what harms
them. In fact, even the most righteously vegetarian
diet causes massive harm to animals. Animals are
chopped up and shredded in the course of producing
vegetable crops - known as collateral animal deaths in
agriculture - and are even deliberately killed, both in
production and in storage; for example, rodents are
killed by the millions at grain storage facilities.

"veganism" is an irrational response to an imaginary
ethical problem. It is not unethical to kill animals.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:34:47 GMT, Robert > wrote:

>Can someone please direct me to a website (or book) that lists foods to
>avoid?
>
>I'm a pescatarian struggling to become a vegetarian and would like to know
>what foods have hidden meat products in them.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:
__________________________________________________ _______
Tires, Surgical sutures, Matches, Soaps, Photographic film,
Cosmetics, Shaving cream, Paints, Candles, Crayon/Chalk,
Toothpaste, Deodorants, Mouthwash, Paper, Upholstery,
Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer,
Antifreeze

http://www.aif.org/lvstock.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic,
Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin,
Pancreatin, Thrombin, Vasopressin, Vitamin B-12, Asphalt,
auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil, high-performance
greases, brake fluid

http://www.teachfree.com/student/wow_that_cow.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
contact-lens care products, glues for paper and cardboard
cartons, bookbinding glue, clarification of wines, Hemostats,
sunscreens and sunblocks, dental floss, hairspray, inks, PVC

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Explosives, Solvents, Industrial Oils, Industrial Lubricants,
Stearic Acid, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Syringes,
Gelatin Capsules, Bandage Strips, Combs and Toothbrushes,
Emery Boards and Cloth, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood and Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Adhesive Tape, Abrasives, Bone Charcoal for High
Grade Steel, Steel Ball Bearings

http://www.sheepusa.org/environment/products.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
consume animal products from animals they think are
raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
more such animals in the future.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of servings of dairy
products. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides,
and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields,
one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve
more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass
raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products contribute to less
wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and decent lives for
cattle. ·

>Like Gelatin or chips fried
>in animal fat vs vegetable oil. Which chain restaurants use animal fat
>instead of vegetable oil? Are there other "hidden" animal products used in
>foods that the average person might not suspect?

The following meat substitutes--and probably many others--
contain egg whites, which contribute to battery farming:

Worthington Meatless Chicken, Turkey, Ham, Vegetarian Hot Dogs
and Prosage Patties

Lightlife Chicken Nuggets and Chicken Patties

Boca Meatless Chick'n and Breakfast Patties

Quorn Meat-Free Patties, Nuggets and Cutlets

>I've heard some Pizza
>chains use beef products in their pizza sauce. I know Chi-Chi's Mexican
>Restaurante uses a beef base in their rice, but their web site doesn't
>mention anything about vegetarian safe foods.
>
>Thanks for any info you can offer.

What's your goal? Is it just to be a veg*n, or is it to have some
impact on animals? If so, what impact do you want to have? You
can contribute to decent lives for farm animals with your lifestyle,
but *not!* if your lifestyle is vegan. Another fact to consider is the
fact that some types of meat involve far less animal deaths than
some types of vegetable products.
· From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one meal of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of meals
derived from grass raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products
contribute to less wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for cattle than soy or rice products. ·

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:27:43 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:

>"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
>fallacy at its very co

No, it doesn't. You commit the fallacy by building a
false argument and then attribute it to vegans as
their's when it isn't.

>Denying the Antecedent. It goes like this:
>
> If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
> and death of animals.

This premise is false, since meat can be sourced without
causing any suffering and deaths of animals; it can be
scavenged from animals that died from natural causes.

> I do not consume animal parts;
>
> therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
> of animals.
>
>This conclusion, of course, is patently false,

And that's why you claim it to be the vegan's argument:
because it's a false argument. In short, you've built a
straw man with a faulty premise instead of dealing with
a more genuine argument vegan's might follow similar to;

1) If I abstain from farmed animal products, then I cause
less farmed animals to suffer and die.
2) I abstain from farmed animal products
therefore
3) I cause less farmed animals to suffer and die.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:27:43 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:

>"veganism" commits a massive and classic logical
>fallacy at its very co

No, it doesn't. You commit the fallacy by building a
false argument and then attribute it to vegans as
their's when it isn't.

>Denying the Antecedent. It goes like this:
>
> If I consume animal parts, I cause the suffering
> and death of animals.

This premise is false, since meat can be sourced without
causing any suffering and deaths of animals; it can be
scavenged from animals that died from natural causes.

> I do not consume animal parts;
>
> therefore, I do not cause the suffering and death
> of animals.
>
>This conclusion, of course, is patently false,

And that's why you claim it to be the vegan's argument:
because it's a false argument. In short, you've built a
straw man with a faulty premise instead of dealing with
a more genuine argument vegan's might follow similar to;

1) If I abstain from farmed animal products, then I cause
less farmed animals to suffer and die.
2) I abstain from farmed animal products
therefore
3) I cause less farmed animals to suffer and die.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:06:48 -0500, "hamilton" > wrote:

>you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you aren't
>contributing. that's my proof. i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
>working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing much
>of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.

No way. But even if one less was killed because of you, it would only
be if one less lived because of you.

>if
>that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
>diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
>something else.

Not likely. If you deliberately consumed products which provide decent
lives for farm animals, then you WOULD be doing something. But who would
want to do a thing like that?

>what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is concrete.
>proove anything.

Some types of meat involve far less animal deaths than some types of
vegetable products....and often provide decent lives for farm animals as
well. But who would want to contribute to things like that?

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:06:48 -0500, "hamilton" > wrote:

>you're right. you're not doing anything by not eating meat. BUT. you aren't
>contributing. that's my proof. i'm not eating meat. the meat industry isn't
>working for me. very simple. i'm not changing the world. i'm not doing much
>of anything. but maybe one less animal a year is killed because of me.

No way. But even if one less was killed because of you, it would only
be if one less lived because of you.

>if
>that happens, than this whole thing has a slight purpose. not only is my
>diet healthy for me (reduced fats/carcinogens) but i MIGHT be helping
>something else.

Not likely. If you deliberately consumed products which provide decent
lives for farm animals, then you WOULD be doing something. But who would
want to do a thing like that?

>what an amasing concept. nothing in this world is concrete.
>proove anything.

Some types of meat involve far less animal deaths than some types of
vegetable products....and often provide decent lives for farm animals as
well. But who would want to contribute to things like that?

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they know they are
doing something wrong by eating rights-holding animals.
You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the death of a cabbage is morally meaningless. You're
an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying to morally
justify your diet on animals in this way.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they know they are
doing something wrong by eating rights-holding animals.
You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the death of a cabbage is morally meaningless. You're
an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying to morally
justify your diet on animals in this way.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they intuitively know
they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
rights-holding farmed animals.

You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
to morally justify the life and death of your food.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:

[..]
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>consume animal products from animals they think are
>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>more such animals in the future.

Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
you use, and they use it because they intuitively know
they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
rights-holding farmed animals.

You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
cabbages, do you, and that's because we all know that
the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
to morally justify the life and death of your food.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:09:24 +0100, Derek > wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:24 GMT, wrote:
>
>[..]
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
>>in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
>>lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
>>consume animal products from animals they think are
>>raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
>>more such animals in the future.
>
>Most meatarians justify their diet using the same logic
>you use,

They know that what I point out is true. So do you.

>and they use it because they intuitively know
>they are doing something terribly wrong when eating
>rights-holding farmed animals.

That could only be true if there were rights-holding
farmed animals, but there are none.

>You don't get to see vegans arguing we should all eat
>veg on the basis that such a diet provides life for more
>cabbages,

No. You argue we should all eat veg to prevent the
lives and deaths of billions of animals.

>do you, and that's because we all know that
>the life and death of a cabbage is morally meaningless.
>You're an AR, Harrison, else you would not be trying
>to morally justify the life and death of your food.

No Gonad. I believe that it's ethically equivalent or
superior to contribute to decent lives for farm animals,
as it is to contribute to none at all. We know you "ARAs"
don't feel that way, so it's incredibly stupid of you to say
I'm in favor of "AR". I'm very much in favor of decent
Animal Welfare, which is something you "ARAs" want
to prevent. You certainly will NOT contribute to decent
AW for food animals with you diet, and you make it very
obvious that you don't want anyone else to either.