dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be considered a
>>> truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us that life still has
>>> positive value to them
>>
>> Those people already exist,
>
> So do animals in similar positions.

Exactly my point. Those people who advocate the elimination of livestock
breeding, and I am not one of them, and you know I'm not, are NOT
advocating harming animals, or denying the "positive value" of animals'
lives, because they propose that those animals never exist in the first
place, and from the point of view of actual animals with interests, that
suggestion is neutral.


>> life only has value to a being once they
>> exist. You need to read Salt's essay again, not that you will understand it.
>
> I understand that commercially raised pigs are no longer filthily housed and
> fed, and also that Salt didn't have any idea whether life is of positive value
> to most modern commercially raised pigs or not. I'd also say it's safe to
> believe that he wouldn't feel any livestock animals' lives were worth living the
> same as you and the Goober and all other misnomer addicts, meaning that none of
> you could make a realistic distinction between which lives seem to be negative
> and which seem to be positive.

That's not the part of the essay I mean. The point you're missing is
that people like Salt, ARAs, vegans and PeTA, "eliminationists" are not
doing anything morally assailable by suggesting that livestock be
eliminated. No matter how "positive" the lives of existing livestock
might be, suggesting that the species be eliminated does those animals
no harm. Your "LoL" argument is circular, meaningless.

dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
> goddess" > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>> Dutch > wrote:
>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>
>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>
> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>
>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>> exist.
>>
>> That's a logical point.
>
> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago

It is not a mistake in terminology, it is a fundamental error in logic
which persists in your arguments to this day.

and some people referred
> to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived potential
> future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they" never experience life.
> It's a lie, though I do consider the possibility that there could be multiple
> lives somehow. I don't have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived
> potential beings experience any sort of loss for not being born as livestock.
> That doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are and experience decent
> lives of positive value TO THEM. Eliminationists can't afford to consider that
> aspect of human influence on animals, but anyone who favors decent AW over
> elimination certainly should both consider and appreciate it. Appreciation for
> that aspect is something eliminationists are opposed to, as you can see by the
> goos' behavior. There are three goos, which include Goo himself, his boy "Dutch"
> and his boy "Derek". In this thread we only have Goo and "Dutch", both of whom
> are maniacally opposed to taking decent lives of livestock into consideration.
> "Dutch" claims to have tried it once, and it made him feel "dirty". It made him
> feel dirty to have appreciation for lives of positive value for the animals he
> claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals that he does NOT favor AW
> over elimination.

That's a lie, and you KNOW it, both of us favor continuing to raise
livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
separate and distinct choices)

dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>
>> dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>
>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>
> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
> are most often of negative value, if any.

So list them.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700
Dutch > wrote:
> dh@. wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the
> > non-existent atheist goddess" > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
> >> Dutch > wrote:
> >>> dh@. wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
> >>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
> >>>> that life still has positive value to them
> >>
> >> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated
> >> by negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
> >
> > It's still positive in respect that they want to continue
> > living.
> >
> >>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once
> >>> they exist.
> >>
> >> That's a logical point.
> >
> > It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except
> > for the fact that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>
> It is not a mistake in terminology, it is a fundamental error in
> logic which persists in your arguments to this day.
>
> and some people referred
> > to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived
> > potential future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they"
> > never experience life. It's a lie, though I do consider the
> > possibility that there could be multiple lives somehow. I don't
> > have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived potential beings
> > experience any sort of loss for not being born as livestock. That
> > doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are and experience
> > decent lives of positive value TO THEM. Eliminationists can't
> > afford to consider that aspect of human influence on animals, but
> > anyone who favors decent AW over elimination certainly should both
> > consider and appreciate it. Appreciation for that aspect is
> > something eliminationists are opposed to, as you can see by the
> > goos' behavior. There are three goos, which include Goo himself,
> > his boy "Dutch" and his boy "Derek". In this thread we only have
> > Goo and "Dutch", both of whom are maniacally opposed to taking
> > decent lives of livestock into consideration. "Dutch" claims to
> > have tried it once, and it made him feel "dirty". It made him feel
> > dirty to have appreciation for lives of positive value for the
> > animals he claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals
> > that he does NOT favor AW over elimination.
>
> That's a lie, and you KNOW it, both of us favor continuing to raise
> livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
> provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
> separate and distinct choices)

I think it's pretty obvious that there's a consensus in the value of
Animal Welfare.

I wonder if things may have gotten off track also because there's may
be a hint of various perceptions of cannibalism that are subconsciously
being applied to eating animals. Although cannibalism is generally
regarded as a horrific practice by many people who are not familiar
with it, there are some societies that value it as an important
practice because it frees the deceased's spirit from limbo, making it
possible to progress to some notion of an afterlife (or reincarnation).

(Interestingly, some cannibalistic tribes have been known to not eat
their enemies as a means of punishment that prevents them from
progressing where they might continue to wage war against their fallen
brethren.)

The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"I'm playing for my life. You're working for money."
-- Charles Milles Manson

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700
> Dutch > wrote:
>> dh@. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the
>>> non-existent atheist goddess" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated
>>>> by negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>>
>>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue
>>> living.
>>>
>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once
>>>>> they exist.
>>>>
>>>> That's a logical point.
>>>
>>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except
>>> for the fact that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>> It is not a mistake in terminology, it is a fundamental error in
>> logic which persists in your arguments to this day.
>>
>> and some people referred
>>> to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived
>>> potential future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they"
>>> never experience life. It's a lie, though I do consider the
>>> possibility that there could be multiple lives somehow. I don't
>>> have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived potential beings
>>> experience any sort of loss for not being born as livestock. That
>>> doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are and experience
>>> decent lives of positive value TO THEM. Eliminationists can't
>>> afford to consider that aspect of human influence on animals, but
>>> anyone who favors decent AW over elimination certainly should both
>>> consider and appreciate it. Appreciation for that aspect is
>>> something eliminationists are opposed to, as you can see by the
>>> goos' behavior. There are three goos, which include Goo himself,
>>> his boy "Dutch" and his boy "Derek". In this thread we only have
>>> Goo and "Dutch", both of whom are maniacally opposed to taking
>>> decent lives of livestock into consideration. "Dutch" claims to
>>> have tried it once, and it made him feel "dirty". It made him feel
>>> dirty to have appreciation for lives of positive value for the
>>> animals he claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals
>>> that he does NOT favor AW over elimination.
>>
>> That's a lie, and you KNOW it, both of us favor continuing to raise
>> livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
>> provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
>> separate and distinct choices)
>
> I think it's pretty obvious that there's a consensus in the value of
> Animal Welfare.
>
> I wonder if things may have gotten off track also because there's may
> be a hint of various perceptions of cannibalism that are subconsciously
> being applied to eating animals. Although cannibalism is generally
> regarded as a horrific practice by many people who are not familiar
> with it, there are some societies that value it as an important
> practice because it frees the deceased's spirit from limbo, making it
> possible to progress to some notion of an afterlife (or reincarnation).
>
> (Interestingly, some cannibalistic tribes have been known to not eat
> their enemies as a means of punishment that prevents them from
> progressing where they might continue to wage war against their fallen
> brethren.)
>
> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.

I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens. The
crux if his position is that users of animals and animal products should
take pride in the fact that those animals "get to experience life" and
conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he calls them) do not sponsor
animals getting to experience life. Also anyone who rejects his nonsense
is labelled as an "eliminationist".

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700
Dutch > wrote:
> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700
> > Dutch > wrote:
> >> dh@. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the
> >>> non-existent atheist goddess" > wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
> >>>> Dutch > wrote:
> >>>>> dh@. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what
> >>>>>> could be considered a truly "good" life don't all kill
> >>>>>> themselves tells us that life still has positive value to them
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be
> >>>> motivated by negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
> >>>
> >>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue
> >>> living.
> >>>
> >>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once
> >>>>> they exist.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's a logical point.
> >>>
> >>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of
> >>> except for the fact that I made a mistake in terminology about a
> >>> decade ago
> >>
> >> It is not a mistake in terminology, it is a fundamental error in
> >> logic which persists in your arguments to this day.
> >>
> >> and some people referred
> >>> to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived
> >>> potential future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they"
> >>> never experience life. It's a lie, though I do consider the
> >>> possibility that there could be multiple lives somehow. I don't
> >>> have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived potential
> >>> beings experience any sort of loss for not being born as
> >>> livestock. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are
> >>> and experience decent lives of positive value TO THEM.
> >>> Eliminationists can't afford to consider that aspect of human
> >>> influence on animals, but anyone who favors decent AW over
> >>> elimination certainly should both consider and appreciate it.
> >>> Appreciation for that aspect is something eliminationists are
> >>> opposed to, as you can see by the goos' behavior. There are three
> >>> goos, which include Goo himself, his boy "Dutch" and his boy
> >>> "Derek". In this thread we only have Goo and "Dutch", both of
> >>> whom are maniacally opposed to taking decent lives of livestock
> >>> into consideration. "Dutch" claims to have tried it once, and it
> >>> made him feel "dirty". It made him feel dirty to have
> >>> appreciation for lives of positive value for the animals he
> >>> claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals that he does
> >>> NOT favor AW over elimination.
> >>
> >> That's a lie, and you KNOW it, both of us favor continuing to raise
> >> livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
> >> provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
> >> separate and distinct choices)
> >
> > I think it's pretty obvious that there's a consensus in the value of
> > Animal Welfare.
> >
> > I wonder if things may have gotten off track also because there's
> > may be a hint of various perceptions of cannibalism that are
> > subconsciously being applied to eating animals. Although
> > cannibalism is generally regarded as a horrific practice by many
> > people who are not familiar with it, there are some societies that
> > value it as an important practice because it frees the deceased's
> > spirit from limbo, making it possible to progress to some notion of
> > an afterlife (or reincarnation).
> >
> > (Interestingly, some cannibalistic tribes have been known to not eat
> > their enemies as a means of punishment that prevents them from
> > progressing where they might continue to wage war against their
> > fallen brethren.)
> >
> > The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
> > normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many
> > food animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their
> > comfort and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>
> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not
> part of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He
> tries to make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his
> smokescreens. The crux if his position is that users of animals and
> animal products should take pride in the fact that those animals "get
> to experience life" and conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he
> calls them) do not sponsor animals getting to experience life. Also
> anyone who rejects his nonsense is labelled as an "eliminationist".

I don't see the need for taking pride in that, because the life
experience is merely incidental to being alive regardless of the
duration of one's life. I'm interested in learning more about the
motivations behind this expectation of taking pride in this way.

The "idea" that "those who don't consume animal products aren't
contributing directly" is a bit of a misnomer (I'm not pointing the
finger here, but just examining the idea for its own merits), for an
indirect contribution as a result of less demand for meat products is
logically expected to reduce the overall number of food animals being
raised for slaughter. The assumed causal effect is that fewer animals
should be mistreated in the context of fewer animals being raised for
slaughter, which is central to the total number of animals (based on
basic overall population counts) rather than a percentage (based on the intrinsic habits/policies of handlers).

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"Unfortunately, the people of Louisiana are not racists."
-- Dan Quayle

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:50:57 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
goddess" > wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700
>Dutch > wrote:
>> dh@. wrote:
>> > On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the
>> > non-existent atheist goddess" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>> >> Dutch > wrote:
>> >>> dh@. wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>> >>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>> >>>> that life still has positive value to them
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated
>> >> by negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>> >
>> > It's still positive in respect that they want to continue
>> > living.
>> >
>> >>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once
>> >>> they exist.
>> >>
>> >> That's a logical point.
>> >
>> > It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except
>> > for the fact that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>> It is not a mistake in terminology, it is a fundamental error in
>> logic which persists in your arguments to this day.
>>
>> and some people referred
>> > to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived
>> > potential future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they"
>> > never experience life. It's a lie, though I do consider the
>> > possibility that there could be multiple lives somehow. I don't
>> > have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived potential beings
>> > experience any sort of loss for not being born as livestock. That
>> > doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are and experience
>> > decent lives of positive value TO THEM. Eliminationists can't
>> > afford to consider that aspect of human influence on animals, but
>> > anyone who favors decent AW over elimination certainly should both
>> > consider and appreciate it. Appreciation for that aspect is
>> > something eliminationists are opposed to, as you can see by the
>> > goos' behavior. There are three goos, which include Goo himself,
>> > his boy "Dutch" and his boy "Derek". In this thread we only have
>> > Goo and "Dutch", both of whom are maniacally opposed to taking
>> > decent lives of livestock into consideration. "Dutch" claims to
>> > have tried it once, and it made him feel "dirty". It made him feel
>> > dirty to have appreciation for lives of positive value for the
>> > animals he claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals
>> > that he does NOT favor AW over elimination.
>>
>> That's a lie, and you KNOW it, both of us favor continuing to raise
>> livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
>> provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
>> separate and distinct choices)
>
>I think it's pretty obvious that there's a consensus in the value of
>Animal Welfare.

>I wonder if things may have gotten off track also because there's may
>be a hint of various perceptions of cannibalism that are subconsciously
>being applied to eating animals. Although cannibalism is generally
>regarded as a horrific practice by many people who are not familiar
>with it, there are some societies that value it as an important
>practice because it frees the deceased's spirit from limbo, making it
>possible to progress to some notion of an afterlife (or reincarnation).
>
>(Interestingly, some cannibalistic tribes have been known to not eat
>their enemies as a means of punishment that prevents them from
>progressing where they might continue to wage war against their fallen
>brethren.)
>
>The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.

Many of them have decent lives of positive value too, and imo the majority
of them do. Eliminationists are opposed to us taking those lives into
consideration though because providing billions of livestock animals with lives
of positive value works against the elimination objective. Nothing would be
worse for eliminationists than for all animals raised for food to have lives of
positive value and humane deaths, and for their consumers to be aware of it.
What could work against their hopes for elimination any more than that? Those
people not only are incapable of distinguishing between lives that seem to be of
negative value and those which seem to be of positive, but they're incapable of
recognising any livestock lives at all that appear to be of positive value. In
the following list of URLs most if not all of the animals pictured appear to
have lives of positive value imo, yet eliminationists can't recognise a single
one that appears to be of positive value to them. Can you?

http://www.agrabilityproject.org/ima...ge002_0015.jpg
http://www.karlschatz.com/yearoftheg...es/skyland.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/...b1a8025730.jpg
http://www.quailhunt.net/images/Quail%20Farm2.jpg
http://images.usatoday.com/news/_pho.../04/10/egg.jpg
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography...s/duckpond.jpg
http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor/Sheep.jpg
http://www.seldomseenfarm.co.uk/imag...se%20540-2.jpg
http://www.jamesranch.net/images/home_cow_red_cliff.jpg
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/.../mds_p7f11.JPG
http://www.drgobbler.com/images/turkeys.JPG
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...0Q2LI/610x.jpg
http://www.cohabnet.org/images/img_issue3.2_lrg.jpg
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2008/01/389523.gif
http://www.colleenpatrick.com/blog/u...-13-782938.jpg
http://www.sprucedale.com/images/feedlot.jpg
http://www.saucierquail.com/farm4.jpg
http://www.fwi.co.uk/Assets/GetAsset...ItemID=3802569
http://www.banhdc.org/images/ch-hor-20060319.jpg
http://www.sheep101.info/Images/VAfeedlot.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ss-fedCows.jpg
http://bentleycellars.com/db2/00200/...SheepRanch.JPG
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2...15_feedlot.jpg
http://www.agralarm.com/images/400_Texas_Broilers.jpg
http://www.circlekquailfarm.com/200%20x%20134.JPG
http://www.moonridgefarm.co.uk/USERI...re%20quail.jpg
http://www.therunningduckfarm.com/images/fieldtripw.jpg
http://www.agriproducts.com.au/verve...heep2_page.jpg
http://www.harveyquarterhorseranch.c.../allhorses.jpg
http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Asmawi%20M.%20Tahir.jpg
http://www.realclimate.org/images/Sheep.jpg
http://www.cps.gov.on.ca/french/ev10000/ev10703.jpg
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040212/wd6.jpg
http://www.mtexpress.com/2000/06-21-00/u21cov1.jpg
http://www.farm-energy.ca/IReF/uploa.../Lighting2.jpg
http://www.piercefarmwatch.org/image...lsurvivors.jpg
http://www.mountvernonfarm.net/images/cows1.jpg
http://www.biblicalresearchreports.c..._bare_dirt.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image..._bank416ap.jpg
http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uima...MorrisBeef.jpg
http://www.alcockhorseranch.com/images/horse.gif
http://www.boerdurhamgoatfarm.com/im...oats-2-061.jpg
http://www.mountain-beef.com/images/sales.jpg
http://www.vivavegie.org/vvi/vva/vvi.../chickens.jpeg
http://www.kingbirdfarm.com/images/K...op%20house.jpg
http://www.prairiespringsranch.com/images/13.jpg
http://www.countryliving.com/cm/coun...DEN0805-de.jpg
http://www.specialtytravel.com/opera...ogos/18059.jpg

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>
>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>
>I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.

That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
value as well as those of positive value.

>The
>crux if his position is that users of animals and animal products should
>take pride in the fact that those animals "get to experience life"

Try presenting some example of me telling people they should take pride in
it. You can't meaning that you lied again, which is pretty much what you do. I
DO encourage people to give the animals' lives as much or more consideration
than their deaths though, which eliminationists hate because and only because
doing so works against the elimination objective.

>and
>conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he calls them) do not sponsor
>animals getting to experience life.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
in order to be successful:

tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:11:21 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be considered a
>>>> truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us that life still has
>>>> positive value to them
>>>
>>> Those people already exist,
>>
>> So do animals in similar positions.
>
>Exactly my point. Those people who advocate the elimination of livestock
>breeding, and I am not one of them, and you know I'm not, are NOT
>advocating harming animals, or denying the "positive value" of animals'
>lives, because they propose that those animals never exist in the first
>place, and from the point of view of actual animals with interests, that
>suggestion is neutral.

To you people that is extremely significant, but to those of us who are not
misnomer addicts it's as meaningless as the fact that rocks aren't alive. The
fact that millions of animals will experience life in the future because humans
eat meat IS VERY significant, but the fact that veganism does nothing for
livestock is no more significant than the fact that dinosaurs are extinct. It's
the "best" that you people have, but meaningless to other people.

>>> life only has value to a being once they
>>> exist. You need to read Salt's essay again, not that you will understand it.
>>
>> I understand that commercially raised pigs are no longer filthily housed and
>> fed, and also that Salt didn't have any idea whether life is of positive value
>> to most modern commercially raised pigs or not. I'd also say it's safe to
>> believe that he wouldn't feel any livestock animals' lives were worth living the
>> same as you and the Goober and all other misnomer addicts, meaning that none of
>> you could make a realistic distinction between which lives seem to be negative
>> and which seem to be positive.
>
>That's not the part of the essay I mean. The point you're missing is
>that people like Salt, ARAs, vegans and PeTA, "eliminationists" are not
>doing anything morally assailable by suggesting that livestock be
>eliminated. No matter how "positive" the lives of existing livestock
>might be, suggesting that the species be eliminated does those animals
>no harm.

That's only the most significant thing to eliminationists.

>Your ...[appreciation for lives of positive value for millions of animals] argument
>is circular, meaningless.

ONLY to eliminationists. For people who honestly favor decent AW over
elimination lives of positive value for millions of animals is a VERY
significant aspect of the situation, in some part because it means AW
regulations are working successfully. The fact that you can't appreciate that
fact is one of the ways you reveal yourself.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>
>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>
>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>
>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>
>So list them.

For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
some of us are able to.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
>> goddess" > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>>
>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>
>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>>
>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>>> exist.
>>>
>>> That's a logical point.
>>
>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>
>It is not a mistake in terminology

That's a blatant lie.

>, it is a fundamental error in logic
>which persists in your arguments to this day.
>
> and some people referred
>> to as the goos still dishonestly insist that I believe unconceived potential
>> future "beings" can somehow "suffer a loss" if "they" never experience life.
>> It's a lie, though I do consider the possibility that there could be multiple
>> lives somehow. I don't have a true belief, but do NOT believe unconceived
>> potential beings experience any sort of loss for not being born as livestock.
>> That doesn't mean I can't appreciate it when they are and experience decent
>> lives of positive value TO THEM. Eliminationists can't afford to consider that
>> aspect of human influence on animals, but anyone who favors decent AW over
>> elimination certainly should both consider and appreciate it. Appreciation for
>> that aspect is something eliminationists are opposed to, as you can see by the
>> goos' behavior. There are three goos, which include Goo himself, his boy "Dutch"
>> and his boy "Derek". In this thread we only have Goo and "Dutch", both of whom
>> are maniacally opposed to taking decent lives of livestock into consideration.
>> "Dutch" claims to have tried it once, and it made him feel "dirty". It made him
>> feel dirty to have appreciation for lives of positive value for the animals he
>> claims to consume. That's one of the ways he reveals that he does NOT favor AW
>> over elimination.
>
>That's a lie, and you KNOW it,

YOU claimed that it made you feel dirty, and if it really did then the fact
that it made you feel dirty is what reveals that you favor AW over elimination.
If you did not, then there would be no reason for it to make you feel dirty.
Instead you would be glad for the animals when they have lives of positive
value, not feel dirty for thinking about it. The only reason to feel dirty would
be if you're opposed to them having those lives of positive value, which
apparently you are. Duh!

>both of us favor continuing to raise
>livestock (over the elimination of livestock) AND we both favor the
>provision of good welfare over the neglect or abuse of animals (TWO
>separate and distinct choices)

You certainly act like you favor elimination over AW by opposing
appreciation for when livestock experience lives of positive value. ONLY
eliminationists have reason to do that.

You know that the elimination position is not respected by people who truly
favor AW and you know eliminationists are not respected by us. THAT is why the
Goober and you pretend (very very poorly) that you're elimination opponents.
Trying to win the respect which you don't deserve, of people who truly do favor
AW over elimination. It doesn't work with me because I see ways you reveal
yourself, plus I've been on to your lame game since you first started trying to
pretend to be an elimination opponent and first began claiming to eat meat. You
honestly admitted you were an eliminationist to begin with, and then later began
to pretend that you eat meat and have a completely different pov.

dh@. wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>
>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>
>> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>> of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>> make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>
> That's a blatant lie

Nope, it is the truth.

dh@. wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> dh@. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>>
>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>
>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>
>> So list them.
>
<blah blah>

now stfu

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:35:51 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:24:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>dh@. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>>>
>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>>
>>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>>
>>>So list them.
>>
>> For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
>>including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
>>positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
>>appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
>>Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
>>like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
>>crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
>>to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
>>greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
>>some of us are able to.
>
><blah blah>

Those are just more things you people hate to think about because they don't
favor elimination.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:22:43 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>
>>>I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>
>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>value as well as those of positive value.
>
>Nope, it is the truth.

Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as
those of positive value. Why do you want to lie about that fact, can't you say?

>>>The
>>>crux if his position is that users of animals and animal products should
>>>take pride in the fact that those animals "get to experience life"
>>
>> Try presenting some example of me telling people they should take pride in
>>it. You can't meaning that you lied again, which is pretty much what you do. I
>>DO encourage people to give the animals' lives as much or more consideration
>>than their deaths though, which eliminationists hate because and only because
>>doing so works against the elimination objective.
>>
>>>and
>>>conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he calls them) do not sponsor
>>>animals getting to experience life.
>>
>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>in order to be successful:
>>
>>tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
>>filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
>>insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
>>heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
>>gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
>>plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
>>wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>>
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>being vegan.
>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>>contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>>better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:35:51 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:24:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>>>>
>>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>>>
>>>> So list them.
>>>
>>> For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
>>> including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
>>> positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
>>> appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
>>> Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
>>> like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
>>> crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
>>> to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
>>> greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
>>> some of us are able to.
>>
>> <blah blah>
>
> Those are just more things you people hate to think about because they don't
> favor elimination.

Stop lying, you don't believe I favor elimination, nobody does. You're
just use that as a convenient strawman to cover your inability to deal
with the legitimate criticism of your silly arguments.

dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:22:43 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>> of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>> make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>>
>>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>> value as well as those of positive value.
>>
>> Nope, it is the truth.
>
> Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as
> those of positive value.

Animal welfare is not what your position is about, that is a smokescreen.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:05:40 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:35:51 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:24:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>>>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>>>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>>>>
>>>>> So list them.
>>>>
>>>> For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
>>>> including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
>>>> positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
>>>> appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
>>>> Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
>>>> like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
>>>> crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
>>>> to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
>>>> greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
>>>> some of us are able to.
>>>
>>> <blah blah>
>>
>> Those are just more things you people hate to think about because they don't
>> favor elimination.
>
>Stop lying, you don't believe I favor elimination,

You were honest about the fact that you do when you began posting he

"I am an animal rights believer." - "Dutch"

"we must have at least the same right as every animal does,
which is to seek to compete successfully, sustain ourselves
and thrive." - "Dutch"

Later you began to pretend that you changed your pov completely to an AW
position, but I disbelieve you since you argue against appreciation for when
decent AW results in lives of positive value for millions of animals.

>nobody does. You're
>just use that as a convenient strawman to cover your inability to deal
>with the legitimate criticism of your silly arguments.

So far there hasn't been one yet. When I first began posting a dozen years
ago I was afraid there might eventually be, but by this time I've gotten pretty
comfortable with the idea that there won't. However, if you think you have one I
challenge you to present it now. Go:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:09:06 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:22:43 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>>> of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>>> make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>>>
>>>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>>> value as well as those of positive value.
>>>
>>> Nope, it is the truth.
>>
>> Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as
>> those of positive value.
>
>Animal welfare is not what your position is about, that is a smokescreen.

I encourage people to appreciate when decent AW AND OTHER THINGS result in
lives of positive value for millions of livestock animals, and you discourage
people from appreciating it.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:


> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:
>>
>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be considered a
>>> truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us that life still has
>>> positive value to them
>>
>> Those people already exist,
>
> So do animals in similar positions.

No. You're talking - you have *always* been blabbering - about "future
farm animals." Stop lying.



>> life only has value to a being once they
>> exist. You need to read Salt's essay again, not that you will understand it.
>
> I understand that

You *should* understand, but fail to understand, that "getting to
experience life" is not a benefit.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:

>>>>>>, and so is not a quote.
>>>
>>> If you want people to think you disagree with
>>
>> It's a forgery - not a quote.
>
> If you want people to think you disagree with

It's a forgery, ****wit. Proved. You're a liar and a forger.

****wit David Harrison, a convicted felon, lied:

>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Humans have as much justification to kill other animals as other animals
>>>>>>> have to kill humans and other animals Goo. Some people are capable of moving on
>>>>>>> beyond that point and actually consider the animals themselves and what's good
>>>>>>> and bad for them. Others of you only want to consider bad things because and
>>>>>>> only because considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals
>>>>>>> works against the elimination objective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Show it.
>>>>>
>>>>> [snip mangled fake quotes]
>>>>
>>>> You didn't show it.
>>>
>>> I showed
>>
>> You only showed that you're an incompetent liar.
>
> as always if you want people to think you think you disagree with

You only showed that you're an incompetent liar.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:09:06 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>>>> of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>>>> make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>>>> value as well as those of positive value.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, it is the truth.
>>>
>>> Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as
>>> those of positive value.
>>
>> Animal welfare is not what your position is about, that is a smokescreen.
>
> I encourage people to appreciate

"Animal welfare is not what your position is about, that is a
smokescreen." That is a true statement, ****wit. You do not care at
all about animal welfare or "decent lives of possitive [sic] value" for
livestock animals. All you care about is that they exist in order for
you to consume them.

You're a fraud and a liar.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:05:40 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:35:51 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>>>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>>>>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>>>>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So list them.
>>>>>
>>>>> For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
>>>>> including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
>>>>> positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
>>>>> appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
>>>>> Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
>>>>> like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
>>>>> crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
>>>>> to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
>>>>> greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
>>>>> some of us are able to.
>>>>
>>>> <blah blah>
>>>
>>> Those are just more things you people hate to think about because they don't
>>> favor elimination.
>>
>> Stop lying, you don't believe I favor elimination,
>
> You were honest about

Dutch does not favor the elimination of livestock, and you know it.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>> of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>> make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>>
>>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>> value as well as those of positive value.
>>
>> Nope, it is the truth.
>
> Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as

You do not care about animal welfare at all. You never have cared about it.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:35:51 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:52 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:30:08 -0700, Dutch lied:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>>>> considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>>>> elimination objective, Goo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aside from battery hens, *you* only want to consider the good. You're
>>>>>> just as nonobjective as ARAs, in fact you're worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no way that's true, so you're lying blatantly again. Not only are
>>>>> you lying blatantly, but you also have no idea which other lives I might believe
>>>>> are most often of negative value, if any.
>>>>
>>>> So list them.
>>>
>>> For one thing there are some who have lives of negative value in every group
>>> including groups where the vast majority of the animals appear to have lives of
>>> positive value, like broiler chickens and grass raised cattle. Most of them
>>> appear to have decent lives, but some don't for whatever particular reasons.
>>> Then in other groups the negative aspect is probably greater than the positive,
>>> like with caged egg producers and probably sows in gestation and farrowing
>>> crates. However I'm also aware that though farrowing crates probably cause life
>>> to be of negative or at least reduced value for the sows, they make life of much
>>> greater value for the young pigs. You people can't appreciate such details, but
>>> some of us are able to.
>>
>> <blah blah>
>
> Those are just more things you people hate

We hate liars. You are a liar.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
>>> goddess" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>>
>>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>>>
>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>>>> exist.
>>>>
>>>> That's a logical point.
>>>
>>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>
> That's a blatant lie.

It's not. It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. It was and is your
most deeply held belief:

Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
born if nothing prevents that from happening,
that would experience the loss if their lives
are prevented.
****wit - 08/01/2000


You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
was a lie:

The animals that will be raised for us to eat
are more than just "nothing", because they
*will* be born unless something stops their
lives from happening. Since that is the case,
if something stops their lives from happening,
whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
them of the life they otherwise would have had.
****wit - 12/09/1999


Sorry, ****wit. It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
plainly see.

On Jul 30, 9:09*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
> >> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> >>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
> >>> goddess" > wrote:
>
> >>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
> >>>> Dutch > wrote:
> >>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
> >>>>>> * * * *The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
> >>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
> >>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>
> >>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. *People can be motivated by
> >>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>
> >>> * * * It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>
> >>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
> >>>>> exist.
>
> >>>> That's a logical point.
>
> >>> * * * It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
> >>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>
> >> It is not a mistake in terminology
>
> > * * *That's a blatant lie.
>
> It's not. *It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. *It was and is your
> most deeply held belief:
>
> * * * * Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
> * * * * born if nothing prevents that from happening,
> * * * * that would experience the loss if their lives
> * * * * are prevented.
> * * * * ****wit - 08/01/2000
>
> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
> was a lie:
>
> * * * * The animals that will be raised for us to eat
> * * * * are more than just "nothing", because they
> * * * * *will* be born unless something stops their
> * * * * lives from happening. Since that is the case,
> * * * * if something stops their lives from happening,
> * * * * whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
> * * * * them of the life they otherwise would have had.
> * * * * ****wit - 12/09/1999
>
> Sorry, ****wit. *It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
> plainly see.

If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?

On 7/31/2012 4:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
>>>>> goddess" > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>>>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>>>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>>>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>
>>>>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>>
>>>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>>>>>> exist.
>>
>>>>>> That's a logical point.
>>
>>>>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
>>>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>>>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>>
>>> That's a blatant lie.
>>
>> It's not. It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. It was and is your
>> most deeply held belief:
>>
>> Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
>> born if nothing prevents that from happening,
>> that would experience the loss if their lives
>> are prevented.
>> ****wit - 08/01/2000
>>
>> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
>> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
>> was a lie:
>>
>> The animals that will be raised for us to eat
>> are more than just "nothing", because they
>> *will* be born unless something stops their
>> lives from happening. Since that is the case,
>> if something stops their lives from happening,
>> whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
>> them of the life they otherwise would have had.
>> ****wit - 12/09/1999
>>
>> Sorry, ****wit. It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
>> plainly see.
>
> If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
> contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?

The one that is trying to erase something else stupid that he said. In
this case, ****wit was frantically trying to undo the effect of his
notorious "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." statement by saying he
considered the unborn animals to be "nothing". But he had already said
they "...are more than just 'nothing'", and it is obvious that later
saying they are "nothing" was merely to try to escape the absurdity of
his August 2000 statement.

This kind of analysis comes easily to logical thinkers, Woopert - what's
your problem?

On 31 Jul., 16:19, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 7/31/2012 4:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
> >>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
> >>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> >>>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
> >>>>> goddess" > wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
> >>>>>> Dutch > wrote:
> >>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
> >>>>>>>> * * * * The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
> >>>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
> >>>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>
> >>>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. *People can be motivated by
> >>>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>
> >>>>> * * * *It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>
> >>>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
> >>>>>>> exist.
>
> >>>>>> That's a logical point.
>
> >>>>> * * * *It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
> >>>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>
> >>>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>
> >>> * * * That's a blatant lie.
>
> >> It's not. *It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. *It was and is your
> >> most deeply held belief:
>
> >> * * * * *Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
> >> * * * * *born if nothing prevents that from happening,
> >> * * * * *that would experience the loss if their lives
> >> * * * * *are prevented.
> >> * * * * *****wit - 08/01/2000
>
> >> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
> >> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
> >> was a lie:
>
> >> * * * * *The animals that will be raised for us to eat
> >> * * * * *are more than just "nothing", because they
> >> * * * * **will* be born unless something stops their
> >> * * * * *lives from happening. Since that is the case,
> >> * * * * *if something stops their lives from happening,
> >> * * * * *whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
> >> * * * * *them of the life they otherwise would have had.
> >> * * * * *****wit - 12/09/1999
>
> >> Sorry, ****wit. *It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
> >> plainly see.
>
> > If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
> > contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?
>
> The one that is trying to erase something else stupid that he said. *In
> this case, ****wit was frantically trying to undo the effect of his
> notorious "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." statement by saying he
> considered the unborn animals to be "nothing". *But he had already said
> they "...are more than just 'nothing'", and it is obvious that later
> saying they are "nothing" was merely to try to escape the absurdity of
> his August 2000 statement.
>
> This kind of analysis comes easily to logical thinkers, Woopert - what's
> your problem?

Has it occurred to you that he might have changed his mind?

On 7/31/2012 10:05 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On 31 Jul., 16:19, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 7/31/2012 4:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
>>>>>>> goddess" > wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>>>>>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>>>>>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>
>>>>>>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>
>>>>>>>> That's a logical point.
>>
>>>>>>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
>>>>>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>>>>>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>>
>>>>> That's a blatant lie.
>>
>>>> It's not. It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. It was and is your
>>>> most deeply held belief:
>>
>>>> Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
>>>> born if nothing prevents that from happening,
>>>> that would experience the loss if their lives
>>>> are prevented.
>>>> ****wit - 08/01/2000
>>
>>>> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
>>>> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
>>>> was a lie:
>>
>>>> The animals that will be raised for us to eat
>>>> are more than just "nothing", because they
>>>> *will* be born unless something stops their
>>>> lives from happening. Since that is the case,
>>>> if something stops their lives from happening,
>>>> whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
>>>> them of the life they otherwise would have had.
>>>> ****wit - 12/09/1999
>>
>>>> Sorry, ****wit. It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
>>>> plainly see.
>>
>>> If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
>>> contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?
>>
>> The one that is trying to erase something else stupid that he said. In
>> this case, ****wit was frantically trying to undo the effect of his
>> notorious "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." statement by saying he
>> considered the unborn animals to be "nothing". But he had already said
>> they "...are more than just 'nothing'", and it is obvious that later
>> saying they are "nothing" was merely to try to escape the absurdity of
>> his August 2000 statement.
>>
>> This kind of analysis comes easily to logical thinkers, Woopert - what's
>> your problem?
>
> Has it occurred to you that he might have changed his mind?

He didn't. Everything he's written since then proves it. He *does*
consider the unborn farm animals to be "more than just 'nothing'" - even
you know that. Everyone knows it. ****wit assigns moral weight to the
possibility of "getting to experience life" for farm animals that
wouldn't be bred into existence for decades. ****wit irrationally -
insanely - thinks it is morally good *today* for the unborn farm animals
themselves to want them to be bred into existence in the future; and he
thinks you and all the other "vegan" twits whom he calls
"eliminationists" are committing a moral wrong by wanting to stop the
breeding of farm animals. You know he thinks this. You may for your
own absurd and psychotic reasons wish to say that you don't know it, but
you do know it, and we all know you know it.

On 31 Jul., 19:15, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 7/31/2012 10:05 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 31 Jul., 16:19, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 7/31/2012 4:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
> >>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>
> >>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
> >>>>>>> goddess" > wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
> >>>>>>>> Dutch > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> * * * * *The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
> >>>>>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
> >>>>>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>
> >>>>>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. *People can be motivated by
> >>>>>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>
> >>>>>>> * * * * It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>
> >>>>>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
> >>>>>>>>> exist.
>
> >>>>>>>> That's a logical point.
>
> >>>>>>> * * * * It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
> >>>>>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>
> >>>>>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>
> >>>>> * * * *That's a blatant lie.
>
> >>>> It's not. *It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. *It was and is your
> >>>> most deeply held belief:
>
> >>>> * * * * * Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
> >>>> * * * * * born if nothing prevents that from happening,
> >>>> * * * * * that would experience the loss if their lives
> >>>> * * * * * are prevented.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 08/01/2000
>
> >>>> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
> >>>> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
> >>>> was a lie:
>
> >>>> * * * * * The animals that will be raised for us to eat
> >>>> * * * * * are more than just "nothing", because they
> >>>> * * * * * *will* be born unless something stops their
> >>>> * * * * * lives from happening. Since that is the case,
> >>>> * * * * * if something stops their lives from happening,
> >>>> * * * * * whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
> >>>> * * * * * them of the life they otherwise would have had.
> >>>> * * * * * ****wit - 12/09/1999
>
> >>>> Sorry, ****wit. *It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
> >>>> plainly see.
>
> >>> If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
> >>> contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?
>
> >> The one that is trying to erase something else stupid that he said. *In
> >> this case, ****wit was frantically trying to undo the effect of his
> >> notorious "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." statement by saying he
> >> considered the unborn animals to be "nothing". *But he had already said
> >> they "...are more than just 'nothing'", and it is obvious that later
> >> saying they are "nothing" was merely to try to escape the absurdity of
> >> his August 2000 statement.
>
> >> This kind of analysis comes easily to logical thinkers, Woopert - what's
> >> your problem?
>
> > Has it occurred to you that he might have changed his mind?
>
> He didn't. *Everything he's written since then proves it. *He *does*
> consider the unborn farm animals to be "more than just 'nothing'" - even
> you know that. *Everyone knows it. *****wit assigns moral weight to the
> possibility of "getting to experience life" for farm animals that
> wouldn't be bred into existence for decades. *****wit irrationally -
> insanely - thinks it is morally good *today* for the unborn farm animals
> themselves to want them to be bred into existence in the future; and he
> thinks you and all the other "vegan" twits whom he calls
> "eliminationists" are committing a moral wrong by wanting to stop the
> breeding of farm animals. *You know he thinks this. *You may for your
> own absurd and psychotic reasons wish to say that you don't know it, but
> you do know it, and we all know you know it.

So what's your explanation for why he claims he doesn't think it?

On 7/31/2012 10:18 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On 31 Jul., 19:15, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 7/31/2012 10:05 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 Jul., 16:19, George Plimpton > wrote:
>>>> On 7/31/2012 4:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:20:00 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:43:26 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist
>>>>>>>>> goddess" > wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> Dutch > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be
>>>>>>>>>>>> considered a truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us
>>>>>>>>>>>> that life still has positive value to them
>>
>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't have to be a "positive" value. People can be motivated by
>>>>>>>>>> negative values too ("revenge" could be an example).
>>
>>>>>>>>> It's still positive in respect that they want to continue living.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those people already exist, life only has value to a being once they
>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's a logical point.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a useless thing for anyone to ever make a point of except for the fact
>>>>>>>>> that I made a mistake in terminology about a decade ago
>>
>>>>>>>> It is not a mistake in terminology
>>
>>>>>>> That's a blatant lie.
>>
>>>>>> It's not. It was not a mistake at all, ****wit. It was and is your
>>>>>> most deeply held belief:
>>
>>>>>> Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
>>>>>> born if nothing prevents that from happening,
>>>>>> that would experience the loss if their lives
>>>>>> are prevented.
>>>>>> ****wit - 08/01/2000
>>
>>>>>> You originally said it was a "mistake" in terminology because you
>>>>>> claimed to view the "unborn animals" as "nothing", but of course that
>>>>>> was a lie:
>>
>>>>>> The animals that will be raised for us to eat
>>>>>> are more than just "nothing", because they
>>>>>> *will* be born unless something stops their
>>>>>> lives from happening. Since that is the case,
>>>>>> if something stops their lives from happening,
>>>>>> whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
>>>>>> them of the life they otherwise would have had.
>>>>>> ****wit - 12/09/1999
>>
>>>>>> Sorry, ****wit. It is *NOT* a "mistake in terminology", as everyone can
>>>>>> plainly see.
>>
>>>>> If someone makes two statements about what they believe that
>>>>> contradict one another, then how do you tell which one is the lie?
>>
>>>> The one that is trying to erase something else stupid that he said. In
>>>> this case, ****wit was frantically trying to undo the effect of his
>>>> notorious "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." statement by saying he
>>>> considered the unborn animals to be "nothing". But he had already said
>>>> they "...are more than just 'nothing'", and it is obvious that later
>>>> saying they are "nothing" was merely to try to escape the absurdity of
>>>> his August 2000 statement.
>>
>>>> This kind of analysis comes easily to logical thinkers, Woopert - what's
>>>> your problem?
>>
>>> Has it occurred to you that he might have changed his mind?
>>
>> He didn't. Everything he's written since then proves it. He *does*
>> consider the unborn farm animals to be "more than just 'nothing'" - even
>> you know that. Everyone knows it. ****wit assigns moral weight to the
>> possibility of "getting to experience life" for farm animals that
>> wouldn't be bred into existence for decades. ****wit irrationally -
>> insanely - thinks it is morally good *today* for the unborn farm animals
>> themselves to want them to be bred into existence in the future; and he
>> thinks you and all the other "vegan" twits whom he calls
>> "eliminationists" are committing a moral wrong by wanting to stop the
>> breeding of farm animals. You know he thinks this. You may for your
>> own absurd and psychotic reasons wish to say that you don't know it, but
>> you do know it, and we all know you know it.
>
> So what's your explanation for why he claims he doesn't think it?

Doesn't think what? He's claimed there are a couple of things he's
written that are not his true thoughts. Do you mean that he doesn't
think unborn farm animals will suffer a "loss" if they are "prevented"
from being conceived and born? He says he doesn't think that because he
became aware, thanks to me, of just how stupid and illogical and insane
that sounds. Of course, he *does* think it - it very clearly and
obviously underlies everything else he has written on the topic.

Do you mean that he doesn't think the unborn animals "...are more than
just 'nothing'", i.e., that he thinks they *are* "just 'nothing'"? He
said he thought they were "just 'nothing'" as a way of trying to shuffle
away from his "Yes, it is the unborn animals..." ****wittery, because he
didn't remember having said that they "...are more than just 'nothing'".

He's just ****ed. He stated his true beliefs, in December 1999 and
again in August 2000, and they show him to be an irrational idiot. I
don't think he's psychotic, as you are, but he's clearly irrational and
incapable of clear and logical thinking.

Rupert wrote:

> So what's your explanation for why he claims he doesn't think it?


When it's laid out for him in simple terms he realizes how idiotic it
sounds so he can't say he believes it.

But then he proceeds to attack vegans, "eliminationists", for their
failure to provide the opportunity for animals to experience "decent AW".

He's not bright enough to realize that by doing so he is admitting that
he implicitly believes that non-existent animals can "lose" something.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:52:01 -0700, Goo wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:43:25 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:55:22 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:05:44 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>>>dh quoted Goo:
>>>>>>On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 00:30:32 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>>>>On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:13:55 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Humans have as much justification to kill other animals as other animals
>>>>>>>>have to kill humans and other animals Goo. Some people are capable of moving on
>>>>>>>>beyond that point and actually consider the animals themselves and what's good
>>>>>>>>and bad for them. Others of you only want to consider bad things because and
>>>>>>>>only because considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals
>>>>>>>>works against the elimination objective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Show it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"the nutritionally unnecessary choice deliberately to kill an animal
>>>>>>ALWAYS causes a moral harm greater in magnitude than . . . the
>>>>>>moral "benefit" realized by the animal in existing at all" - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"the moral harm caused by killing them is greater in magnitude
>>>>>>than ANY benefit they might derive from "decent lives" - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"no matter how "decent" the conditions are, the deliberate killing
>>>>>>of the animals erases all of it." - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"it is not "better" that the animal exist, no matter
>>>>>>its quality of live" - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>""giving them life" does NOT mitigate the wrongness of
>>>>>>their deaths" - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Causing animals to be born and "get to experience life"
>>>>>>(in ****wit's wretched prose) is no mitigation at all for
>>>>>>killing them." - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Life "justifying" death is the stupidest goddamned thing
>>>>>>you ever wrote." - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"NO livestock benefit from being farmed." - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"No farm animals benefit from farming." - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There is nothing to "appreciate" about the livestock "getting
>>>>>>to experience life" - Goo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"one MUST conclude that not raising them in the first place is the
>>>>>>ethically superior choice." - Goo
>>>>>
>>>>>You didn't show it.
>>>>
>>>> I showed that you only want to consider bad things because and only because
>>>>considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals works against the
>>>>elimination objective, Goo.
>>>
>>>You
>>
>> Goober as always if you want people to think you think you disagree with
>>yourself about any of your quotes then YOU need to try explaining HOW you want
>>people to think you think you do. But you can't even make an attempt Goob
>>because you agree with yourself about every bit of it. You agree with yourself
>>about every one of the quotes I presented, Goo.
>
>You only showed that you're an incompetent liar.

If you want anyone to think I'm lying Goob, it's up to YOU to try explaining
how you want them to think you think you disagree with yourself about ANY OF
your claims. Since you can't Goober, it's a clear sign that you do agree with
yourself about every one of your quotes and can't even pretend that you don't.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:51:59 -0700, Goo wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:43:45 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:53:54 -0700, Goo wussiley puled:
>>
>>>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:05:20 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:39:24 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:05:06 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 15:39:22 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:14:14 -0400, dh@. pointed out:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goo doesn't believe any animals benefit from living and it's all the same to
>>>>>>>>him regardless of the quality of their lives:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"it is not "better" that the animal exist, no matter
>>>>>>>>its quality of live" - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"It is not "better" in any moral way, and not in *any* way
>>>>>>>>at all to the animal itself, that the animal exists." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"It is not "good" for the animals that they exist, no matter
>>>>>>>>how pleasant the condition of their existence." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"It is not "good for them" to exist, no matter how pleasant
>>>>>>>>the existence." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Life "justifying" death is the stupidest goddamned thing you
>>>>>>>>ever wrote." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"NO livestock benefit from being farmed." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"No farm animals benefit from farming." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"There is nothing to "appreciate" about the livestock "getting
>>>>>>>>to experience life" - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Shut the **** up about "consideration" for "their lives"" - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>""Getting to experience life" has no significance." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"the "getting to experience life" deserves NO moral
>>>>>>>>consideration, and is given none; the deliberate killing
>>>>>>>>of animals for use by humans DOES deserve moral
>>>>>>>>consideration, and gets it." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>""giving them life" does NOT mitigate the wrongness of
>>>>>>>>their deaths" - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Causing animals to be born and "get to experience life"
>>>>>>>>(in ****wit's wretched prose) is no mitigation at all for
>>>>>>>>killing them." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"You consider that it "got to experience life" to be some kind
>>>>>>>>of mitigation of the evil of killing it." - Goo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"The meaningless fact-lette that farm animals "get to
>>>>>>>>experience life" deserves no consideration when asking
>>>>>>>>whether or not it is moral to kill them. Zero." - Goo
>>>>>
>>>>>The statement below is mangled from the original, and so is not a quote.
>>>>
>>>> If you want people to think you disagree with yourself about the quote below
>>>>Goo then YOU need to try to explain how you think you do. Otherwise Goober we'll
>>>>be left with nothing else to believe other than that you do agree with yourself
>>>>about all of it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>"the nutritionally unnecessary choice deliberately to kill an animal
>>>>>>>>ALWAYS causes a moral harm greater in magnitude than . . . the
>>>>>>>>moral "benefit" realized by the animal in existing at all" - Goo
>>>>>
>>>>>The statement below is mangled from the original, and so is not a quote.
>>>>
>>>> If you want people to think you disagree with yourself about the quote below
>>>>Goo then YOU need to try to explain how you think you do. Otherwise Goober we'll
>>>>be left with nothing else to believe other than that you do agree with yourself
>>>>about all of it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>"the moral harm caused by killing them is greater in magnitude
>>>>>>>>than ANY benefit they might derive from "decent lives" - Goo
>>>>>
>>>>>The statement below is mangled from the original, and so is not a quote.
>>>>
>>>> If you want people to think you disagree with yourself about the quote below
>>>>Goo then YOU need to try to explain how you think you do. Otherwise Goober we'll
>>>>be left with nothing else to believe other than that you do agree with yourself
>>>>about all of it.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>"no matter how "decent" the conditions are, the deliberate killing
>>>>>>>>of the animals erases all of it." - Goo
>>>>>
>>>>>The statement below is mangled from the original, and so is not a quote.
>>>>
>>>> If you want people to think you disagree with yourself about the quote below
>>>>Goo then YOU need to try to explain how you think you do. Otherwise Goober we'll
>>>>be left with nothing else to believe other than that you do agree with yourself
>>>>about all of it.
>>>
>>>It's a forgery - not a quote.
>>
>> If you want people to think you disagree with yourself about your own quotes
>>Goo then YOU need to try to explain how you think you do. Otherwise Goober we'll
>>be left with nothing else to believe other than that you do agree with yourself
>>about all of it.
>
>It's a forgery, ****wit. Proved.

It's YOUR quote Goo, but if you want to pretend it's a forgery then try
presenting some reason to think so. Also Goob, if you want people to think you
think you disagree with yourself about any of your above quotes, then YOU need
to try explaining how you want them to think you do. Try now Goo. GO!:


(correct prediction: the Goober can't explain how he wants people to think he
thinks he disagrees with himself about any of his quotes that I share, because
he agrees with himself about every one of them)

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:51:52 -0700, Goo wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:40:36 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be considered a
>>>> truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us that life still has
>>>> positive value to them
>>>
>>>Those people already exist,
>>
>> So do animals in similar positions.
>
>No.

LOL!!! The idea that there are no animals in similar positions is so stupid
it's hilarious Goo.

>>>life only has value to a being once they
>>>exist. You need to read Salt's essay again, not that you will understand it.
>>
>> I understand that commercially raised pigs are no longer filthily housed and
>>fed, and also that Salt didn't have any idea whether life is of positive value
>>to most modern commercially raised pigs or not. I'd also say it's safe to
>>believe that he wouldn't feel any livestock animals' lives were worth living the
>>same as you and the Goober and all other misnomer addicts, meaning that none of
>>you could make a realistic distinction between which lives seem to be negative
>>and which seem to be positive.
>
>You *should* understand, but fail to understand, that "getting to
>experience life" is not a benefit.

It often appears that it is a benefit Goob so if you want people to think
something prevents it from being one, YOU need to try to explain what you want
people to think prevents it. Try explaining what you want people to think
prevents you from benefitting from experiencing your own life, Goo. Go:


(correct prediction: the Goober not only can't explain what he thinks is
preventing him from benefitting, but he's ashamed to even attempt to explain)

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon, lied:

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Humans have as much justification to kill other animals as other animals
>>>>>>>>> have to kill humans and other animals Goo. Some people are capable of moving on
>>>>>>>>> beyond that point and actually consider the animals themselves and what's good
>>>>>>>>> and bad for them. Others of you only want to consider bad things because and
>>>>>>>>> only because considering positive aspects for millions of livestock animals
>>>>>>>>> works against the elimination objective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Show it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [snip mangled fake quotes]
>>>>>
>>>>> I showed that
>>>>
>>>> You only showed that you're an incompetent liar.
>>>
>>> as always if you want people to think
>>
>> You only showed that you're an incompetent liar.
>
> If you want anyone to think I'm lying

Everyone already does.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:



>>>>>
>>>>> If you want people to think you disagree with
>>>>
>>>> It's a forgery - not a quote.
>>>
>>> If you want people to think you disagree with
>>
>> It's a forgery, ****wit. Proved.
>
> It's YOUR quote

Not anyone's quote, Goo. It's your ham-handed shitty editing job. It's
bullshit - not what anyone actually said.

****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:

> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:51:52 -0700, George Plimpton wrote:
>
>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:32:27 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ****wit David Harrison, convicted felon living in Buford, GA, lied:
>>>>
>>>>> The fact that people who don't feel they have what could be considered a
>>>>> truly "good" life don't all kill themselves tells us that life still has
>>>>> positive value to them
>>>>
>>>> Those people already exist,
>>>
>>> So do animals in similar positions.
>>
>> No. You're talking - you have *always* been blabbering - about "future farm animals." Stop lying.
>
> LOL!!! The idea that

You were *only* talking about future farm animals, Goo.