Juhana Harju > writes
>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>
>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>
>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
>> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>
>Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia
>and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

--
Oz

Oz wrote:
> Juhana Harju > writes
>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>
>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>
>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>> they eat a lot of soy?
>
> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

--
Juhana

Oz wrote:
> Juhana Harju > writes
>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>
>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>
>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>> they eat a lot of soy?
>
> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu
> and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of their
> own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The Okinawa
> Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

You can also look at this site, which confirms the fact.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...25/ai_n6116796

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu
> and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of their
> own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The Okinawa
> Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

You can also look at this site, which confirms the fact.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...25/ai_n6116796

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>
>>Juhana Harju > writes
>>
>>>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >, "Juhana Harju"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>>dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>>Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>>and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>
>>>Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>>of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>>they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>>Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
> the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three ounces is one ounce less than a "standard" serving quantity of
meat per meal. Compare that to the average quantity of soy consumed in
the West, particularly among vegetarians who've not truly gotten over
their taste for meat and who consume soy burgers, soy dogs, etc. The
consumption of soy in Okinawa is a fraction in comparison.

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>
>>Juhana Harju > writes
>>
>>>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >, "Juhana Harju"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>>dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>>Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>>and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>
>>>Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>>of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>>they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>>Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
> the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three ounces is one ounce less than a "standard" serving quantity of
meat per meal. Compare that to the average quantity of soy consumed in
the West, particularly among vegetarians who've not truly gotten over
their taste for meat and who consume soy burgers, soy dogs, etc. The
consumption of soy in Okinawa is a fraction in comparison.

Juhana Harju > writes
>Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
>the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
>ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
>few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
>Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

--
Oz

Oz wrote:
> Juhana Harju > writes
>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>
> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
> calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

(Same source as above)

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
> It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
> Vegetables 34%
> Grains 32 %
> Soy 12%
> Fish 11 %
> Fruits 6 %
> Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
> Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%
>
> (Same source as above)

It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:

Vegetables 16%
Grains 11 %
Soy < 1 %
Fish < 1 %
Fruits 20 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %

(Same source as above)

The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message
...
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in
> the world.
====================
And again, fool. It does not then equate to eating soy in the US as it it
produced. Is that too hard a concept for your 2 working braincells?



Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but
> also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC
> and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p.
> 158)
>
> --
> Juhana
>

"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message
...
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article >, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in
> the world.
====================
And again, fool. It does not then equate to eating soy in the US as it it
produced. Is that too hard a concept for your 2 working braincells?



Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but
> also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC
> and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p.
> 158)
>
> --
> Juhana
>

"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message
...
> Juhana Harju wrote:
>> Oz wrote:
>>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>>
>>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>>> calorific intake is it?
>>
>> It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>>
>> Vegetables 34%
>> Grains 32 %
>> Soy 12%
>> Fish 11 %
>> Fruits 6 %
>> Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>> Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%
>>
>> (Same source as above)
>
> It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:
>
> Vegetables 16%
> Grains 11 %
> Soy < 1 %
> Fish < 1 %
> Fruits 20 %
> Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
> Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %
>
> (Same source as above)
>
> The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of
> Americans.
==================
And soy has not been shown to account for that difference. Why do try to
promote it as such? Are you just a shill for the soybean board?



> And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart
> disease
> and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
> life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).
>
> --
> Juhana
>

"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message
...
> Juhana Harju wrote:
>> Oz wrote:
>>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>>
>>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>>> calorific intake is it?
>>
>> It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>>
>> Vegetables 34%
>> Grains 32 %
>> Soy 12%
>> Fish 11 %
>> Fruits 6 %
>> Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>> Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%
>>
>> (Same source as above)
>
> It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:
>
> Vegetables 16%
> Grains 11 %
> Soy < 1 %
> Fish < 1 %
> Fruits 20 %
> Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
> Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %
>
> (Same source as above)
>
> The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of
> Americans.
==================
And soy has not been shown to account for that difference. Why do try to
promote it as such? Are you just a shill for the soybean board?



> And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart
> disease
> and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
> life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).
>
> --
> Juhana
>

In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
>It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
>Vegetables 34%
>Grains 32 %
>Soy 12%
>Fish 11 %
>Fruits 6 %
>Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

Looks like what we call a fairly balanced diet. How does this "prove that
soy is safe" in any way ?


Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
>It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
>Vegetables 34%
>Grains 32 %
>Soy 12%
>Fish 11 %
>Fruits 6 %
>Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

Looks like what we call a fairly balanced diet. How does this "prove that
soy is safe" in any way ?


Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju > writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
>It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
>Vegetables 34%
>Grains 32 %
>Soy 12%
>Fish 11 %
>Fruits 6 %
>Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

Looks like what we call a fairly balanced diet. How does this "prove that
soy is safe" in any way ?


Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Juhana Harju wrote:
(snip)
>The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
>And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
>and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
>life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

But you are still ascribing a cause to what is only a correlation. You
still can't do that. No matter how often you repeat this theory, it is
still wrong ... without more work. Sorry




Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

"Ron" > wrote in message
om...
> Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
> are not steroids like human estrogen, ...
Well, why are soy products touted as 'hormone replacement therapy' for
post-menopausal women??

Laurie

Larry Fruity wrote:

>>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>>are not steroids like human estrogen, ...
>
> Well, why are soy products touted as 'hormone replacement therapy' for
> post-menopausal women??

Did you grow your tits by eating soy or did you use hormones?