..


From: "Robert Cohen" <notmilk@e...>
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
Subject: I'm so confused about Soy


ADVERTISEMENT



"I'm so confused about Soy."
That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:

Rob <office@r...> wrote:

"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
There are only a few educated people that I
trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
are two of them, but you and he have opposing
views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
need to address some of the points he makes.
I know for a fact that there are many of your
readers who also subscribe to him. I look
forward to your reply. Thanks."

http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
________________________________________

Dear Rob,

Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.

Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
the consumption of raw milk.

A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.

After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
scientists wrote:

"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."

Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
believes so. The article concludes:

"Available evidence from adult human and infant
populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
development, or reproduction."

Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
research which I totally reject.

Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
rats do not get. If scientific research from one
tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
applied to another, how can any man or woman of
science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
only be applied to rats, which have different organs
and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.

Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
too.

Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?

According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.

Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
of reasoning.

For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
in soy products, the average American woman will also
consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
health advice to their patients.

Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).

So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
veggies, nuts, and grains too.

The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
while you sleep.

A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
low levels of isoflavones.

Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:

"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."

************************************************** ****
In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
field, Americans eat four times the amount of
phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
soy products.
************************************************** ****
Ziegler continues:

"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
populations."

So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
Neanderthals.

You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
does keep the doctor away because of those magical
phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.

Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
act like one.

Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
phytates.

Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?

Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.

Wheaties cereal contains phytates.

Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
Where's the stomach pump?

One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
of milk.

If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.

Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:

"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."

Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):

"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."

A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
write:

"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
all of any of them."

Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
products.

Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
867-5) reveal:

The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.

Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."

Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
(0.88%).

Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
soymilk (0.43%).

Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
soymilk (1.52%).

Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
merit.

A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
of phytates.

Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
authors of Food Phytates write:

"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
formation, and certain types of cancers."

So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
a prime example of using food for medicine.

Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.

So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.

For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.

Robert Cohen
http://www.notmilk.com

"Ron" > wrote in message
om...
> .
>
of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows

Jim Webster

"Ron" > wrote in message
om...
> .
>
of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows

Jim Webster

After a breakfast of soy flakes and milk, the mother can breast feed and
everyone is happy.

>"I'm so confused about Soy."
>That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>
>Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>
>"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
>There are only a few educated people that I
>trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
>are two of them, but you and he have opposing
>views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
>need to address some of the points he makes.
>I know for a fact that there are many of your
>readers who also subscribe to him. I look
>forward to your reply. Thanks."
>
>http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
>________________________________________
>
>Dear Rob,
>
>Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
>name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
>to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
>diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
>he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
>a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
>on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>
>Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
>Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
>that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
>serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
>that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
>receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
>the consumption of raw milk.
>
>A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
>Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>
>After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
>of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
>scientists wrote:
>
>"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
>for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
>evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
>alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
>met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
>Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
>safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>
>Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
>believes so. The article concludes:
>
>"Available evidence from adult human and infant
>populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
>infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
>development, or reproduction."
>
>Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
>research which I totally reject.
>
>Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
>mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
>rats do not get. If scientific research from one
>tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
>applied to another, how can any man or woman of
>science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
>research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
>only be applied to rats, which have different organs
>and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
>Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>
>Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
>phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
>brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
>too.
>
>Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>
>According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
>(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
>Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
>and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
>you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
>vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>
>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
>who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
>swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
>advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
>of reasoning.
>
>For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
>in soy products, the average American woman will also
>consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
>from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
>phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
>hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
>so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
>physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
>just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
>health advice to their patients.
>
>Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
>are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
>(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
>and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>
>So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
>ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
>phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
>veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>
>The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
>very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
>even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
>their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
>of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
>while you sleep.
>
>A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
>Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
>suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
>have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
>low levels of isoflavones.
>
>Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
>Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
>Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>
>"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
>women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
>lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>
>************************************************* *****
>In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
>field, Americans eat four times the amount of
>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
>soy products.
>************************************************* *****
>Ziegler continues:
>
>"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
>have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
>intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
>populations."
>
>So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
>and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
>Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
>raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
>Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
>Neanderthals.
>
>You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
>does keep the doctor away because of those magical
>phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
>broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>
>Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
>be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
>Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
>death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
>Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
>with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
>utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
>a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
>would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
>act like one.
>
>Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
>phytates.
>
>Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>
>Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>
>Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>
>Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
>they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
>about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
>phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
>Where's the stomach pump?
>
>One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
>box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
>of milk.
>
>If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
>Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
>contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
>the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>
>Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>
>"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
>can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
>in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
>in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
>third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
>magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
>eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
>and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>
>Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
>Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>
>"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
>blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
>iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
>are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
>high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
>deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
>calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
>foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
>soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>
>A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
>disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
>Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
>write:
>
>"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
>contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
>toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
>acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
>enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
>with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
>effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
>the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
>several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
>consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
>products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
>moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
>all of any of them."
>
>Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
>content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
>products.
>
>Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
>Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
>867-5) reveal:
>
>The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>
>Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>
>Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
>(0.88%).
>
>Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
>soymilk (0.43%).
>
>Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
>soymilk (1.52%).
>
>Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
>than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
>What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
>merit.
>
>A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
>ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
>of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
>soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
>milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
>of phytates.
>
>Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
>and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
>authors of Food Phytates write:
>
>"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
>of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
>property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
>cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
>diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
>formation, and certain types of cancers."
>
>So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
>a prime example of using food for medicine.
>
>Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
>hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
>have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
>What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
>muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
>soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
>grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
>the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>
>So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
>either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>
>For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
>regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
>blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
>advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
>to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>
>Robert Cohen
>http://www.notmilk.com

After a breakfast of soy flakes and milk, the mother can breast feed and
everyone is happy.

>"I'm so confused about Soy."
>That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>
>Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>
>"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
>There are only a few educated people that I
>trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
>are two of them, but you and he have opposing
>views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
>need to address some of the points he makes.
>I know for a fact that there are many of your
>readers who also subscribe to him. I look
>forward to your reply. Thanks."
>
>http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
>________________________________________
>
>Dear Rob,
>
>Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
>name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
>to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
>diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
>he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
>a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
>on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>
>Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
>Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
>that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
>serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
>that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
>receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
>the consumption of raw milk.
>
>A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
>Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>
>After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
>of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
>scientists wrote:
>
>"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
>for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
>evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
>alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
>met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
>Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
>safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>
>Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
>believes so. The article concludes:
>
>"Available evidence from adult human and infant
>populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
>infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
>development, or reproduction."
>
>Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
>research which I totally reject.
>
>Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
>mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
>rats do not get. If scientific research from one
>tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
>applied to another, how can any man or woman of
>science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
>research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
>only be applied to rats, which have different organs
>and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
>Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>
>Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
>phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
>brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
>too.
>
>Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>
>According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
>(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
>Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
>and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
>you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
>vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>
>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
>who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
>swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
>advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
>of reasoning.
>
>For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
>in soy products, the average American woman will also
>consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
>from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
>phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
>hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
>so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
>physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
>just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
>health advice to their patients.
>
>Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
>are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
>(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
>and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>
>So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
>ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
>phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
>veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>
>The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
>very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
>even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
>their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
>of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
>while you sleep.
>
>A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
>Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
>suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
>have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
>low levels of isoflavones.
>
>Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
>Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
>Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>
>"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
>women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
>lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>
>************************************************* *****
>In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
>field, Americans eat four times the amount of
>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
>soy products.
>************************************************* *****
>Ziegler continues:
>
>"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
>have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
>intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
>populations."
>
>So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
>and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
>Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
>raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
>Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
>Neanderthals.
>
>You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
>does keep the doctor away because of those magical
>phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
>broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>
>Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
>be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
>Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
>death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
>Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
>with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
>utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
>a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
>would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
>act like one.
>
>Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
>phytates.
>
>Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>
>Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>
>Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>
>Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
>they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
>about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
>phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
>Where's the stomach pump?
>
>One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
>box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
>of milk.
>
>If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
>Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
>contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
>the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>
>Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>
>"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
>can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
>in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
>in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
>third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
>magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
>eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
>and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>
>Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
>Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>
>"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
>blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
>iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
>are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
>high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
>deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
>calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
>foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
>soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>
>A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
>disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
>Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
>write:
>
>"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
>contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
>toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
>acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
>enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
>with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
>effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
>the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
>several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
>consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
>products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
>moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
>all of any of them."
>
>Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
>content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
>products.
>
>Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
>Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
>867-5) reveal:
>
>The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>
>Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>
>Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
>(0.88%).
>
>Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
>soymilk (0.43%).
>
>Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
>soymilk (1.52%).
>
>Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
>than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
>What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
>merit.
>
>A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
>ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
>of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
>soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
>milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
>of phytates.
>
>Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
>and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
>authors of Food Phytates write:
>
>"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
>of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
>property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
>cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
>diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
>formation, and certain types of cancers."
>
>So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
>a prime example of using food for medicine.
>
>Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
>hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
>have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
>What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
>muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
>soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
>grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
>the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>
>So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
>either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>
>For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
>regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
>blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
>advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
>to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>
>Robert Cohen
>http://www.notmilk.com

What about claims made that eating tofu increases chances of getting
dementia?
Based on report from Japan.
Ron wrote:
> .
>
>
> From: "Robert Cohen" <notmilk@e...>
> Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
> Subject: I'm so confused about Soy
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> "I'm so confused about Soy."
> That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>
> Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>
> "I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
> There are only a few educated people that I
> trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
> are two of them, but you and he have opposing
> views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
> need to address some of the points he makes.
> I know for a fact that there are many of your
> readers who also subscribe to him. I look
> forward to your reply. Thanks."
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
> ________________________________________
>
> Dear Rob,
>
> Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
> name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
> to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
> diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
> he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
> a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
> on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>
> Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
> Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
> that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
> serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
> that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
> receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
> the consumption of raw milk.
>
> A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
> Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>
> After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
> of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
> scientists wrote:
>
> "Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
> for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
> evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
> alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
> met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
> Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
> safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>
> Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
> believes so. The article concludes:
>
> "Available evidence from adult human and infant
> populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
> infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
> development, or reproduction."
>
> Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
> research which I totally reject.
>
> Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
> mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
> rats do not get. If scientific research from one
> tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
> applied to another, how can any man or woman of
> science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
> research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
> only be applied to rats, which have different organs
> and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
> Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>
> Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
> phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
> brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
> too.
>
> Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>
> According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
> (soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
> Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
> and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
> you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
> vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>
> Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
> are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
> who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
> swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
> advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
> of reasoning.
>
> For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
> in soy products, the average American woman will also
> consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
> from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
> phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
> hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
> so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
> physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
> just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
> health advice to their patients.
>
> Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
> are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
> (which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
> and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>
> So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
> ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
> phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
> veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>
> The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
> very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
> even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
> their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
> of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
> phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
> while you sleep.
>
> A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
> Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
> suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
> have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
> low levels of isoflavones.
>
> Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
> Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
> Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>
> "The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
> women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
> lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>
> ************************************************** ****
> In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
> field, Americans eat four times the amount of
> phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
> soy products.
> ************************************************** ****
> Ziegler continues:
>
> "Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
> have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
> intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
> populations."
>
> So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
> and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
> Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
> raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
> Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
> Neanderthals.
>
> You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
> does keep the doctor away because of those magical
> phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
> broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>
> Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
> be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
> Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
> death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
> Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
> with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
> utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
> a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
> would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
> act like one.
>
> Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
> phytates.
>
> Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>
> Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>
> Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>
> Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
> they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
> about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
> phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
> Where's the stomach pump?
>
> One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
> box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
> of milk.
>
> If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
> Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
> contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
> the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>
> Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>
> "Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
> can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
> in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
> in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
> third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
> magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
> eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
> and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>
> Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
> Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>
> "Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
> blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
> iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
> are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
> high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
> deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
> calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
> foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
> soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>
> A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
> disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
> Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
> write:
>
> "There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
> contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
> toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
> acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
> enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
> with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
> effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
> the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
> several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
> consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
> products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
> moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
> all of any of them."
>
> Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
> content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
> products.
>
> Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
> Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
> 867-5) reveal:
>
> The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>
> Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>
> Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
> (0.88%).
>
> Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
> soymilk (0.43%).
>
> Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
> soymilk (1.52%).
>
> Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
> than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
> What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
> merit.
>
> A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
> ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
> of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
> soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
> milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
> of phytates.
>
> Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
> and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
> authors of Food Phytates write:
>
> "Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
> of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
> property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
> cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
> diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
> formation, and certain types of cancers."
>
> So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
> a prime example of using food for medicine.
>
> Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
> hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
> have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
> What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
> muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
> soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
> grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
> the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>
> So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
> either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>
> For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
> regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
> blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
> advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
> to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>
> Robert Cohen
> http://www.notmilk.com

I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
cardio vascular problems from eating animals.

wrote:
> What about claims made that eating tofu increases chances of getting
> dementia?
> Based on report from Japan.
> Ron wrote:
>
>>.
>>
>>
>>From: "Robert Cohen" <notmilk@e...>
>>Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
>>Subject: I'm so confused about Soy
>>
>>
>>ADVERTISEMENT
>>
>>
>>
>>"I'm so confused about Soy."
>>That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>>
>>Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>>
>>"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
>>There are only a few educated people that I
>>trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
>>are two of them, but you and he have opposing
>>views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
>>need to address some of the points he makes.
>>I know for a fact that there are many of your
>>readers who also subscribe to him. I look
>>forward to your reply. Thanks."
>>
>>http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
>>________________________________________
>>
>>Dear Rob,
>>
>>Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
>>name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
>>to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
>>diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
>>he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
>>a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
>>on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>>
>>Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
>>Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
>>that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
>>serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
>>that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
>>receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
>>the consumption of raw milk.
>>
>>A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
>>Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>>
>>After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
>>of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
>>scientists wrote:
>>
>>"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
>>for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
>>evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
>>alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
>>met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
>>Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
>>safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>>
>>Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
>>believes so. The article concludes:
>>
>>"Available evidence from adult human and infant
>>populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
>>infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
>>development, or reproduction."
>>
>>Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
>>research which I totally reject.
>>
>>Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
>>mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
>>rats do not get. If scientific research from one
>>tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
>>applied to another, how can any man or woman of
>>science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
>>research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
>>only be applied to rats, which have different organs
>>and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
>>Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>>
>>Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
>>phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
>>brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
>>too.
>>
>>Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>>
>>According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
>>(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
>>Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
>>and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
>>you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
>>vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>>
>>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>>are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
>>who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
>>swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
>>advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
>>of reasoning.
>>
>>For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
>>in soy products, the average American woman will also
>>consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
>>from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
>>phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
>>hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
>>so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
>>physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
>>just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
>>health advice to their patients.
>>
>>Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
>>are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
>>(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
>>and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>>
>>So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
>>ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
>>phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
>>veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>>
>>The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
>>very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
>>even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
>>their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
>>of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
>>while you sleep.
>>
>>A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
>>Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
>>suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
>>have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
>>low levels of isoflavones.
>>
>>Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
>>Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
>>Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>>
>>"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
>>women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
>>lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>>
>>************************************************ ******
>>In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
>>field, Americans eat four times the amount of
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
>>soy products.
>>************************************************ ******
>>Ziegler continues:
>>
>>"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
>>have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
>>intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
>>populations."
>>
>>So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
>>and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
>>Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
>>raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
>>Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
>>Neanderthals.
>>
>>You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
>>does keep the doctor away because of those magical
>>phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
>>broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>>
>>Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
>>be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
>>Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
>>death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
>>Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
>>with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
>>utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
>>a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
>>would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
>>act like one.
>>
>>Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
>>phytates.
>>
>>Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>>
>>Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>>
>>Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>>
>>Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
>>they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
>>about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
>>phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
>>Where's the stomach pump?
>>
>>One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
>>box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
>>of milk.
>>
>>If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
>>Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
>>contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
>>the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>>
>>Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>>
>>"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
>>can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
>>in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
>>in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
>>third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
>>magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
>>eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
>>and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
>>Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>>
>>"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
>>blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
>>iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
>>are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
>>high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
>>deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
>>calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
>>foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
>>soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
>>disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
>>Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
>>write:
>>
>>"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
>>contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
>>toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
>>acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
>>enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
>>with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
>>effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
>>the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
>>several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
>>consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
>>products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
>>moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
>>all of any of them."
>>
>>Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
>>content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
>>products.
>>
>>Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
>>Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
>>867-5) reveal:
>>
>>The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>>
>>Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>>
>>Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
>>(0.88%).
>>
>>Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
>>soymilk (0.43%).
>>
>>Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
>>soymilk (1.52%).
>>
>>Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
>>than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
>>What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
>>merit.
>>
>>A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
>>ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
>>of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
>>soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
>>milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
>>of phytates.
>>
>>Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
>>and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
>>authors of Food Phytates write:
>>
>>"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
>>of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
>>property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
>>cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
>>diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
>>formation, and certain types of cancers."
>>
>>So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
>>a prime example of using food for medicine.
>>
>>Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
>>hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
>>have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
>>What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
>>muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
>>soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
>>grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
>>the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>>
>>So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
>>either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>>
>>For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
>>regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
>>blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
>>advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
>>to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>>
>>Robert Cohen
>>http://www.notmilk.com
>
>

I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
cardio vascular problems from eating animals.

wrote:
> What about claims made that eating tofu increases chances of getting
> dementia?
> Based on report from Japan.
> Ron wrote:
>
>>.
>>
>>
>>From: "Robert Cohen" <notmilk@e...>
>>Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
>>Subject: I'm so confused about Soy
>>
>>
>>ADVERTISEMENT
>>
>>
>>
>>"I'm so confused about Soy."
>>That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>>
>>Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>>
>>"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
>>There are only a few educated people that I
>>trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
>>are two of them, but you and he have opposing
>>views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
>>need to address some of the points he makes.
>>I know for a fact that there are many of your
>>readers who also subscribe to him. I look
>>forward to your reply. Thanks."
>>
>>http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
>>________________________________________
>>
>>Dear Rob,
>>
>>Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
>>name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
>>to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
>>diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
>>he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
>>a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
>>on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>>
>>Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
>>Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
>>that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
>>serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
>>that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
>>receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
>>the consumption of raw milk.
>>
>>A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
>>Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>>
>>After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
>>of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
>>scientists wrote:
>>
>>"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
>>for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
>>evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
>>alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
>>met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
>>Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
>>safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>>
>>Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
>>believes so. The article concludes:
>>
>>"Available evidence from adult human and infant
>>populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
>>infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
>>development, or reproduction."
>>
>>Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
>>research which I totally reject.
>>
>>Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
>>mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
>>rats do not get. If scientific research from one
>>tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
>>applied to another, how can any man or woman of
>>science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
>>research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
>>only be applied to rats, which have different organs
>>and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
>>Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>>
>>Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
>>phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
>>brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
>>too.
>>
>>Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>>
>>According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
>>(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
>>Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
>>and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
>>you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
>>vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>>
>>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>>are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
>>who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
>>swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
>>advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
>>of reasoning.
>>
>>For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
>>in soy products, the average American woman will also
>>consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
>>from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
>>phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
>>hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
>>so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
>>physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
>>just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
>>health advice to their patients.
>>
>>Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
>>are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
>>(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
>>and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>>
>>So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
>>ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
>>phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
>>veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>>
>>The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
>>very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
>>even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
>>their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
>>of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
>>while you sleep.
>>
>>A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
>>Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
>>suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
>>have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
>>low levels of isoflavones.
>>
>>Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
>>Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
>>Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>>
>>"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
>>women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
>>lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>>
>>************************************************ ******
>>In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
>>field, Americans eat four times the amount of
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
>>soy products.
>>************************************************ ******
>>Ziegler continues:
>>
>>"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
>>have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
>>intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
>>populations."
>>
>>So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
>>and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
>>Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
>>raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
>>Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
>>Neanderthals.
>>
>>You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
>>does keep the doctor away because of those magical
>>phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
>>broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>>
>>Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
>>be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
>>Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
>>death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
>>Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
>>with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
>>utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
>>a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
>>would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
>>act like one.
>>
>>Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
>>phytates.
>>
>>Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>>
>>Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>>
>>Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>>
>>Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
>>they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
>>about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
>>phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
>>Where's the stomach pump?
>>
>>One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
>>box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
>>of milk.
>>
>>If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
>>Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
>>contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
>>the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>>
>>Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>>
>>"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
>>can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
>>in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
>>in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
>>third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
>>magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
>>eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
>>and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
>>Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>>
>>"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
>>blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
>>iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
>>are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
>>high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
>>deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
>>calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
>>foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
>>soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
>>disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
>>Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
>>write:
>>
>>"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
>>contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
>>toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
>>acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
>>enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
>>with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
>>effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
>>the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
>>several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
>>consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
>>products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
>>moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
>>all of any of them."
>>
>>Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
>>content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
>>products.
>>
>>Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
>>Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
>>867-5) reveal:
>>
>>The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>>
>>Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>>
>>Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
>>(0.88%).
>>
>>Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
>>soymilk (0.43%).
>>
>>Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
>>soymilk (1.52%).
>>
>>Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
>>than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
>>What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
>>merit.
>>
>>A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
>>ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
>>of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
>>soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
>>milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
>>of phytates.
>>
>>Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
>>and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
>>authors of Food Phytates write:
>>
>>"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
>>of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
>>property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
>>cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
>>diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
>>formation, and certain types of cancers."
>>
>>So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
>>a prime example of using food for medicine.
>>
>>Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
>>hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
>>have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
>>What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
>>muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
>>soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
>>grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
>>the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>>
>>So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
>>either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>>
>>For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
>>regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
>>blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
>>advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
>>to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>>
>>Robert Cohen
>>http://www.notmilk.com
>
>

I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
cardio vascular problems from eating animals.

wrote:
> What about claims made that eating tofu increases chances of getting
> dementia?
> Based on report from Japan.
> Ron wrote:
>
>>.
>>
>>
>>From: "Robert Cohen" <notmilk@e...>
>>Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
>>Subject: I'm so confused about Soy
>>
>>
>>ADVERTISEMENT
>>
>>
>>
>>"I'm so confused about Soy."
>>That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:
>>
>>Rob <office@r...> wrote:
>>
>>"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
>>There are only a few educated people that I
>>trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
>>are two of them, but you and he have opposing
>>views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
>>need to address some of the points he makes.
>>I know for a fact that there are many of your
>>readers who also subscribe to him. I look
>>forward to your reply. Thanks."
>>
>>http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
>>________________________________________
>>
>>Dear Rob,
>>
>>Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
>>name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
>>to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
>>diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
>>he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
>>a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
>>on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.
>>
>>Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
>>Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
>>that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
>>serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
>>that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
>>receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
>>the consumption of raw milk.
>>
>>A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
>>Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.
>>
>>After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
>>of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
>>scientists wrote:
>>
>>"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
>>for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
>>evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
>>alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
>>met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
>>Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
>>safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."
>>
>>Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
>>believes so. The article concludes:
>>
>>"Available evidence from adult human and infant
>>populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
>>infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
>>development, or reproduction."
>>
>>Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
>>research which I totally reject.
>>
>>Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
>>mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
>>rats do not get. If scientific research from one
>>tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
>>applied to another, how can any man or woman of
>>science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
>>research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
>>only be applied to rats, which have different organs
>>and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
>>Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.
>>
>>Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
>>phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
>>brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
>>too.
>>
>>Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?
>>
>>According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
>>(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
>>Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
>>and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
>>you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
>>vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.
>>
>>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>>are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
>>who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
>>swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
>>advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
>>of reasoning.
>>
>>For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
>>in soy products, the average American woman will also
>>consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
>>from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
>>phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
>>hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
>>so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
>>physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
>>just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
>>health advice to their patients.
>>
>>Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
>>are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
>>(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
>>and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).
>>
>>So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
>>ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
>>phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
>>veggies, nuts, and grains too.
>>
>>The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
>>very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
>>even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
>>their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
>>of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
>>while you sleep.
>>
>>A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
>>Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
>>suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
>>have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
>>low levels of isoflavones.
>>
>>Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
>>Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
>>Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:
>>
>>"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
>>women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
>>lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."
>>
>>************************************************ ******
>>In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
>>field, Americans eat four times the amount of
>>phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
>>soy products.
>>************************************************ ******
>>Ziegler continues:
>>
>>"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
>>have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
>>intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
>>populations."
>>
>>So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
>>and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
>>Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
>>raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
>>Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
>>Neanderthals.
>>
>>You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
>>does keep the doctor away because of those magical
>>phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
>>broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.
>>
>>Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
>>be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
>>Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
>>death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
>>Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
>>with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
>>utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
>>a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
>>would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
>>act like one.
>>
>>Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
>>phytates.
>>
>>Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?
>>
>>Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.
>>
>>Wheaties cereal contains phytates.
>>
>>Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
>>they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
>>about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
>>phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
>>Where's the stomach pump?
>>
>>One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
>>box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
>>of milk.
>>
>>If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
>>Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
>>contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
>>the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.
>>
>>Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:
>>
>>"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
>>can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
>>in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
>>in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
>>third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
>>magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
>>eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
>>and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
>>Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):
>>
>>"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
>>blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
>>iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
>>are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
>>high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
>>deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
>>calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
>>foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
>>soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."
>>
>>A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
>>disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
>>Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
>>write:
>>
>>"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
>>contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
>>toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
>>acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
>>enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
>>with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
>>effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
>>the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
>>several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
>>consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
>>products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
>>moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
>>all of any of them."
>>
>>Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
>>content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
>>products.
>>
>>Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
>>Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
>>867-5) reveal:
>>
>>The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.
>>
>>Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."
>>
>>Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
>>(0.88%).
>>
>>Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
>>soymilk (0.43%).
>>
>>Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
>>soymilk (1.52%).
>>
>>Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
>>than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
>>What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
>>merit.
>>
>>A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
>>ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
>>of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
>>soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
>>milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
>>of phytates.
>>
>>Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
>>and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
>>authors of Food Phytates write:
>>
>>"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
>>of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
>>property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
>>cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
>>diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
>>formation, and certain types of cancers."
>>
>>So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
>>a prime example of using food for medicine.
>>
>>Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
>>hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
>>have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
>>What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
>>muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
>>soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
>>grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
>>the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.
>>
>>So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
>>either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.
>>
>>For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
>>regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
>>blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
>>advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
>>to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.
>>
>>Robert Cohen
>>http://www.notmilk.com
>
>

In article >, Beach Runner > wrote:
>I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
>evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
>cardio vascular problems from eating animals.

There are other problems that you fail to mention. Obviously 3 of them are :
1) top posting
2) failing to cut out irrelevant previous stuff
3) crossposting.

Other problems are also known

(snip)


Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx


Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article >, Beach Runner > wrote:
>I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
>evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
>cardio vascular problems from eating animals.

There are other problems that you fail to mention. Obviously 3 of them are :
1) top posting
2) failing to cut out irrelevant previous stuff
3) crossposting.

Other problems are also known

(snip)


Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx


Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> In article >, Beach Runner > wrote:
>
>>I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
>>evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
>>cardio vascular problems from eating animals.
>
>
> There are other problems that you fail to mention. Obviously 3 of them are :
> 1) top posting
> 2) failing to cut out irrelevant previous stuff
> 3) crossposting.
>
> Other problems are also known


Keep priorities in order.


>
> (snip)
>
>
> Bruce
>
> ------------------------------
> Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
> dying of nothing.
>
> -Redd Foxx
>
>
> Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
> (if there were any)

Bruce Sinclair wrote:

> In article >, Beach Runner > wrote:
>
>>I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
>>evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
>>cardio vascular problems from eating animals.
>
>
> There are other problems that you fail to mention. Obviously 3 of them are :
> 1) top posting
> 2) failing to cut out irrelevant previous stuff
> 3) crossposting.
>
> Other problems are also known


Keep priorities in order.


>
> (snip)
>
>
> Bruce
>
> ------------------------------
> Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
> dying of nothing.
>
> -Redd Foxx
>
>
> Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
> (if there were any)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> wrote:

>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows

reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
understanding of a rumen...

lipoxygenase?
trypsine inhibitors?

and what about these?

-broiler litter
-formaldehyde
-methylamine
-propionic acid
-raw straw

all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...

or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?

and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
a ruminant and a human ?

klaus

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> wrote:

>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows

reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
understanding of a rumen...

lipoxygenase?
trypsine inhibitors?

and what about these?

-broiler litter
-formaldehyde
-methylamine
-propionic acid
-raw straw

all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...

or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?

and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
a ruminant and a human ?

klaus

"Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> > wrote:
>
> >of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>
> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
> understanding of a rumen...
>
> lipoxygenase?
> trypsine inhibitors?
>
> and what about these?
>
> -broiler litter
> -formaldehyde
> -methylamine
> -propionic acid
> -raw straw
>
> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>
> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?

and that is relevent exactly how?




>
> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
> a ruminant and a human ?

simple.
With a ruminant you are actually working with bacterial nutrition as well as
conventional mammalian. Hence urea is an excellent feed for rumen bacteria
who can convert it to bacterial protein, which the cow can then use.
Unless you have large numbers of rumen bacteria I suggest you leave urea to
ruminents

Jim Webster

"Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> > wrote:
>
> >of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>
> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
> understanding of a rumen...
>
> lipoxygenase?
> trypsine inhibitors?
>
> and what about these?
>
> -broiler litter
> -formaldehyde
> -methylamine
> -propionic acid
> -raw straw
>
> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>
> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?

and that is relevent exactly how?




>
> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
> a ruminant and a human ?

simple.
With a ruminant you are actually working with bacterial nutrition as well as
conventional mammalian. Hence urea is an excellent feed for rumen bacteria
who can convert it to bacterial protein, which the cow can then use.
Unless you have large numbers of rumen bacteria I suggest you leave urea to
ruminents

Jim Webster

IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
their diet and for so many years?

Chuck


"Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> > wrote:
>
>>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>
> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
> understanding of a rumen...
>
> lipoxygenase?
> trypsine inhibitors?
>
> and what about these?
>
> -broiler litter
> -formaldehyde
> -methylamine
> -propionic acid
> -raw straw
>
> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>
> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?
>
> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
> a ruminant and a human ?
>
> klaus
>

IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
their diet and for so many years?

Chuck


"Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> > wrote:
>
>>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>
> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
> understanding of a rumen...
>
> lipoxygenase?
> trypsine inhibitors?
>
> and what about these?
>
> -broiler litter
> -formaldehyde
> -methylamine
> -propionic acid
> -raw straw
>
> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>
> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?
>
> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
> a ruminant and a human ?
>
> klaus
>

> Chuck wrote:
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
part of
> their diet and for so many years?

Chuck,

I think it's a dairy industry smear campaign. I think they're a little
concerned about the recent upswing in popularity of soy milk. The fact
is Soy beans have been consumed by humans for ages. If you like 'em, I
say eat or drink 'em... I do every day...

Patrick

> Chuck wrote:
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
part of
> their diet and for so many years?

Chuck,

I think it's a dairy industry smear campaign. I think they're a little
concerned about the recent upswing in popularity of soy milk. The fact
is Soy beans have been consumed by humans for ages. If you like 'em, I
say eat or drink 'em... I do every day...

Patrick

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
> their diet and for so many years?
=============================
They didn't have large parts of their diet in soy products like the ones
being processed in the US. It is a different product, and they didn't eat
it as a main course substitute for meat.


>
> Chuck
>
>
> "Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>>
>> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
>> understanding of a rumen...
>>
>> lipoxygenase?
>> trypsine inhibitors?
>>
>> and what about these?
>>
>> -broiler litter
>> -formaldehyde
>> -methylamine
>> -propionic acid
>> -raw straw
>>
>> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>>
>> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?
>>
>> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
>> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
>> a ruminant and a human ?
>>
>> klaus
>>
>
>

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
> their diet and for so many years?
=============================
They didn't have large parts of their diet in soy products like the ones
being processed in the US. It is a different product, and they didn't eat
it as a main course substitute for meat.


>
> Chuck
>
>
> "Klaus Wiegand" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:01:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>of course soy is safe, it makes an excellent feed for dairy cows
>>
>> reading such a statement makes me doubt, that you have even a basic
>> understanding of a rumen...
>>
>> lipoxygenase?
>> trypsine inhibitors?
>>
>> and what about these?
>>
>> -broiler litter
>> -formaldehyde
>> -methylamine
>> -propionic acid
>> -raw straw
>>
>> all of these make excellent feed for dairy cows...
>>
>> or how about pouring some spoons of urea over your breakfast ?
>>
>> and such an answer from a dairy farmer....
>> for a starter: what might be the differences between the metabolism of
>> a ruminant and a human ?
>>
>> klaus
>>
>
>

Top posting is highly recommended by Usenet rule #453 para. b.)
Attachments such as previous posts should always be included at the bottom
of you post. Usenet Rule 429 para. h) sub para. ii.


"Bruce Sinclair" > wrote in
message ...
> In article >, Beach Runner
> wrote:
> >I repeat, there have been concentrated rat studies. There is no human
> >evidence of any problem with Soy. There is plenty of human evidence of
> >cardio vascular problems from eating animals.
>
> There are other problems that you fail to mention. Obviously 3 of them are
:
> 1) top posting
> 2) failing to cut out irrelevant previous stuff
> 3) crossposting.
>
> Other problems are also known
>
> (snip)
>
>
> Bruce
>
> ------------------------------
> Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
> dying of nothing.
>
> -Redd Foxx
>
>
> Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
> (if there were any)

Chuck > writes

>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
>their diet and for so many years?

Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for
cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are
toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally
by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less
fermenting - 'bean curds').

Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is
probably safer.

see======================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e/browse_threa
d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+
a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+informati on+(worth+a+read)%22%2
6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search &&d#f9b7a90987a314db

uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)"

Oz
May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options


Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post)

==========================


>>Where is the proof that soya is safe?

Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.

Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.

Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.

When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.

Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.

Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.

Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.

The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.

Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.

Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.

This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.

Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.

Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.

Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.

Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.

Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.

Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.

The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.

While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.

These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.

Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"

Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.

The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

=======================================


--
Oz

Chuck wrote:
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
> their diet and for so many years?

Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends
to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso,
as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
unfermented and in very large quantities.

<...>

Chuck wrote:
> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
> their diet and for so many years?

Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends
to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso,
as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
unfermented and in very large quantities.

<...>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:42:33 -0000, "Jim Webster"
> wrote:

>simple.
>With a ruminant you are actually working with bacterial nutrition as well as
>conventional mammalian. Hence urea is an excellent feed for rumen bacteria
>who can convert it to bacterial protein, which the cow can then use.
>Unless you have large numbers of rumen bacteria I suggest you leave urea to
>ruminents

jim, in all honesty i had no doubt that you knew very well the
functionality of a rumen. the question was purely rhetorical to show
the difference between the two. what made me respond was the way (by a
simple sentence without any argument) you simply transferred ruminal
metabolism to human gut metabolism. in reality there are few relations
between these two. you can feed a lot of chemicals to rumen bacteria,
which would be undigestable by or even nasty to human gut bacteria.
there are a lot of doubts, that metabolism studies between mammalians
(like humans and rats) are inter-tranferrable. vitamin b and vitamin c
deficient humans might be such a problem. there are a lot more
reasons, why we should accept, that there huge differences between
ruminants and "common" warm-blooded digesters.


klaus

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>> of their diet and for so many years?
>
> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
> have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as a
> flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
> fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
> unfermented and in very large quantities.
>
I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy milk,
tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. They also eat
rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group.
Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in
particular is used would be an error. We also ship large quantities of
"our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't think
so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful

Chuck.


> <...>

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>> of their diet and for so many years?
>
> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
> have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as a
> flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
> fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
> unfermented and in very large quantities.
>
I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy milk,
tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. They also eat
rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group.
Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in
particular is used would be an error. We also ship large quantities of
"our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't think
so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful

Chuck.


> <...>

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Chuck wrote:
> >> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
> >> of their diet and for so many years?
> >
> > Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
> > quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
> > have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as
a
> > flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
> > fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
> > unfermented and in very large quantities.
> >
> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy milk,
> tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. They also eat
> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group.
> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in
> particular is used would be an error. We also ship large quantities of
> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows?

No, most is going to feed poultry and pigs.China is booming, its population
is eating more and more meat.

Jim Webster

Chuck wrote:
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>>>of their diet and for so many years?
>>
>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as a
>>flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
>>unfermented and in very large quantities.
>>
>
> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental,

I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them
"oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted "Asian"?

> they all were raised on soy milk,
> tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. They also eat
> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group.

Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental"
children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it even
though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in their
culture "both there and here"?

> Orientals

*Asians*, you hillbilly.

> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in
> particular is used would be an error.

Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
unfermented soy products SPARINGLY.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html

And note the following, hillbilly:
Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm

> We also ship large quantities of
> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows?

That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for
export.

> I don't think so.

WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"?

> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful

Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy.
http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm
http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html

usual suspect added:
<...>
> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY.
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>
> And note the following, hillbilly:
> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm

It's probably NOT a good idea to give soy in large amounts to little
kids because the high quantity of phytoestrogens (those isoflavones
marketers use to peddle their goods) can delay or prevent sexual maturity.

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

Got tits?

usual suspect added:
<...>
> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY.
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>
> And note the following, hillbilly:
> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm

It's probably NOT a good idea to give soy in large amounts to little
kids because the high quantity of phytoestrogens (those isoflavones
marketers use to peddle their goods) can delay or prevent sexual maturity.

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

Got tits?

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Chuck wrote:
>>>
>>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>>>>of their diet and for so many years?
>>>
>>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
>>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
>>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as
>>>a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
>>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
>>>unfermented and in very large quantities.
>>>
>>
>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental,
>
> I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them
> "oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted "Asian"?
>
First they are from different countries including Vietnam, China and Japan
so how could I call them all from one country? Second, I call them what
they call themselves. Although one calls himself a "Gook." and the others
"Slopes" or "slit eyes" but you or I should not. But they are free to call
themselves whatever they want. Just like they eat what they want. Besides
they are all adults now and are living their own lives. You are right in
one respect, they should be called "Asians" or now, Americans, as they are
citizens.

Chuck



>> they all were raised on soy milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces,
>> both there and here. They also eat rice daily and except for seafoods,
>> very little of the meats group.
>
> Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental"
> children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it even
> though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in their
> culture "both there and here"?
>
As I said they eat what they prerfer.


>> Orientals
>
> *Asians*, you hillbilly

OK, Asians, you asshole

..
>
>> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in particular is
>> used would be an error.
>
> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY. I never said SPARINGLY
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>
> And note the following, hillbilly:
> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
>
>> We also ship large quantities of "our" soy to the orient. Are they just
>> feeding it to cows?
>
> That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for
> export.
>
>> I don't think so.
>
> WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"?
>
>> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful
>
> Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy.
> http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm
> http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Chuck wrote:
>>>
>>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>>>>of their diet and for so many years?
>>>
>>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
>>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to
>>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as
>>>a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
>>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it
>>>unfermented and in very large quantities.
>>>
>>
>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental,
>
> I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them
> "oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted "Asian"?
>
First they are from different countries including Vietnam, China and Japan
so how could I call them all from one country? Second, I call them what
they call themselves. Although one calls himself a "Gook." and the others
"Slopes" or "slit eyes" but you or I should not. But they are free to call
themselves whatever they want. Just like they eat what they want. Besides
they are all adults now and are living their own lives. You are right in
one respect, they should be called "Asians" or now, Americans, as they are
citizens.

Chuck



>> they all were raised on soy milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces,
>> both there and here. They also eat rice daily and except for seafoods,
>> very little of the meats group.
>
> Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental"
> children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it even
> though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in their
> culture "both there and here"?
>
As I said they eat what they prerfer.


>> Orientals
>
> *Asians*, you hillbilly

OK, Asians, you asshole

..
>
>> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in particular is
>> used would be an error.
>
> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY. I never said SPARINGLY
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>
> And note the following, hillbilly:
> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
>
>> We also ship large quantities of "our" soy to the orient. Are they just
>> feeding it to cows?
>
> That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for
> export.
>
>> I don't think so.
>
> WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"?
>
>> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful
>
> Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy.
> http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm
> http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html

WOW!!!! All in one breath too. Except they are all adults now, Note, we
are taking care of 4 grandchildren, Mother and father died a few years ago.
but they call themselves Hispasians.

Chuck

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
news
> usual suspect added:
> <...>
>> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
>> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY.
>>
>> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
>> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>>
>> And note the following, hillbilly:
>> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
>> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
>> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
>> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
>> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
>> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
>> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
>> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
>> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
>> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
>> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
>
> It's probably NOT a good idea to give soy in large amounts to little kids
> because the high quantity of phytoestrogens (those isoflavones marketers
> use to peddle their goods) can delay or prevent sexual maturity.
>
> Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
> (found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
> their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
> female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
> mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
> [Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
> diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
> exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]
>
> Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
> estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
> Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
> (3).
> [Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
> Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]
>
> Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
> found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
> and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
> rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
> [Ibid.]
>
> “In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
> affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
> metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
> sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
> weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
> [Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
> Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
> Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
> grant M01 RR00073]
>
> All above lifted from:
> http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml
>
> Additionally, see:
> http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
>
> Got tits?

WOW!!!! All in one breath too. Except they are all adults now, Note, we
are taking care of 4 grandchildren, Mother and father died a few years ago.
but they call themselves Hispasians.

Chuck

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
news
> usual suspect added:
> <...>
>> Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
>> unfermented soy products SPARINGLY.
>>
>> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
>> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>>
>> And note the following, hillbilly:
>> Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
>> non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
>> nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
>> soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
>> and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
>> fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
>> fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
>> traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
>> health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
>> the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
>> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
>
> It's probably NOT a good idea to give soy in large amounts to little kids
> because the high quantity of phytoestrogens (those isoflavones marketers
> use to peddle their goods) can delay or prevent sexual maturity.
>
> Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
> (found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
> their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
> female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
> mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
> [Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
> diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
> exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]
>
> Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
> estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
> Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
> (3).
> [Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
> Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]
>
> Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
> found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
> and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
> rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
> [Ibid.]
>
> “In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
> affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
> metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
> sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
> weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
> [Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
> Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
> Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
> grant M01 RR00073]
>
> All above lifted from:
> http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml
>
> Additionally, see:
> http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
>
> Got tits?

Asian ******s?

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Chuck wrote:
> >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Chuck wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
part
> >>>>of their diet and for so many years?
> >>>
> >>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same
> >>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends
to
> >>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso,
as
> >>>a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
> >>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming
it
> >>>unfermented and in very large quantities.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental,
> >
> > I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them
> > "oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted
"Asian"?
> >
> First they are from different countries including Vietnam, China and Japan
> so how could I call them all from one country? Second, I call them what
> they call themselves. Although one calls himself a "Gook." and the others
> "Slopes" or "slit eyes" but you or I should not. But they are free to
call
> themselves whatever they want. Just like they eat what they want.
Besides
> they are all adults now and are living their own lives. You are right in
> one respect, they should be called "Asians" or now, Americans, as they
are
> citizens.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> >> they all were raised on soy milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces,
> >> both there and here. They also eat rice daily and except for seafoods,
> >> very little of the meats group.
> >
> > Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental"
> > children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it even
> > though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in their
> > culture "both there and here"?
> >
> As I said they eat what they prerfer.
>
>
> >> Orientals
> >
> > *Asians*, you hillbilly
>
> OK, Asians, you asshole
>
> .
> >
> >> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in particular is
> >> used would be an error.
> >
> > Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
> > unfermented soy products SPARINGLY. I never said SPARINGLY
> >
> > http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
> > http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
> >
> > And note the following, hillbilly:
> > Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
> > non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
> > nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
> > soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
> > and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
> > fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
> > fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
> > traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
> > health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
> > the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
> > http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
> >
> >> We also ship large quantities of "our" soy to the orient. Are they
just
> >> feeding it to cows?
> >
> > That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for
> > export.
> >
> >> I don't think so.
> >
> > WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"?
> >
> >> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful
> >
> > Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy.
> > http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm
> > http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html
>
>

Actually I said they could call themselves whatever they wanted, as can I.
However, they frown on intellectual retards making up names for no valid or
real reason. You're wasting your time giving me your worthless
interpretations.

Chuck.

"Piezo Guru" > wrote in message
news:1103477573.8360171234f7d7d3291127874e0d4c06@t eranews...
> Asian ******s?
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Chuck wrote:
>> >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>>Chuck wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
> part
>> >>>>of their diet and for so many years?
>> >>>
>> >>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the
>> >>>same
>> >>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends
> to
>> >>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso,
> as
>> >>>a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it
>> >>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming
> it
>> >>>unfermented and in very large quantities.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental,
>> >
>> > I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them
>> > "oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted
> "Asian"?
>> >
>> First they are from different countries including Vietnam, China and
>> Japan
>> so how could I call them all from one country? Second, I call them what
>> they call themselves. Although one calls himself a "Gook." and the
>> others
>> "Slopes" or "slit eyes" but you or I should not. But they are free to
> call
>> themselves whatever they want. Just like they eat what they want.
> Besides
>> they are all adults now and are living their own lives. You are right in
>> one respect, they should be called "Asians" or now, Americans, as they
> are
>> citizens.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>> >> they all were raised on soy milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces,
>> >> both there and here. They also eat rice daily and except for
>> >> seafoods,
>> >> very little of the meats group.
>> >
>> > Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental"
>> > children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it
>> > even
>> > though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in
>> > their
>> > culture "both there and here"?
>> >
>> As I said they eat what they prerfer.
>>
>>
>> >> Orientals
>> >
>> > *Asians*, you hillbilly
>>
>> OK, Asians, you asshole
>>
>> .
>> >
>> >> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in particular
>> >> is
>> >> used would be an error.
>> >
>> > Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume
>> > unfermented soy products SPARINGLY. I never said SPARINGLY
>> >
>> > http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
>> > http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>> >
>> > And note the following, hillbilly:
>> > Typically soy foods are divided into two categories:
>> > non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional
>> > nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry
>> > soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk
>> > and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional
>> > fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and
>> > fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the
>> > traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more
>> > health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than
>> > the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West.
>> > http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm
>> >
>> >> We also ship large quantities of "our" soy to the orient. Are they
> just
>> >> feeding it to cows?
>> >
>> > That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for
>> > export.
>> >
>> >> I don't think so.
>> >
>> > WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"?
>> >
>> >> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful
>> >
>> > Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy.
>> > http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970
>> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm
>> > http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html
>>
>>
>
>