In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Reynard" > wrote
> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>
> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their diets
> are not bloodless.

Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
logical rationalization.

I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
their daily lives without having to kill.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "John Deere" > wrote
>
> > John Deere wrote:
> > ...
> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
> >>
> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
> >
> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
> > vegetarian of some kind?
> >
> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
> > will by finding some "justification"!
>
> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
>
> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
> > once does deserve some praise.
>
> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
> self-flattery.

No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.

In article >,
usual suspect > wrote:

> Retard wrote:
> > On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 00:30:29 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:
> >
> >>Retard wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:26:16 GMT, usual suspect >
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Scented Nectar wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Retard wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:25:27 -0500, "Scented Nectar"
> > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>Why a month ago, what's different now? I gave up
> >>>>>>>meat in 1981. Recently I've begun eliminating the
> >>>>>>>last of the dairy in my meals, so if it's that you're
> >>>>>>>talking about, I haven't kept records and can't
> >>>>>>>therefore answer you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It's a bit like making a new year's resolution to stop
> >>>>>>dropping litter. Even though you had no idea of the
> >>>>>>amount of litter you were dropping in 2004, holding
> >>>>>>on to your litter and disposing of it properly in 2005
> >>>>>>will mean you have reduced your littering, however
> >>>>>>much littering you did prior to 2005. You don't need
> >>>>>>numbers to know you're reducing your litter, and the
> >>>>>>same goes for collateral deaths, so don't let the likes
> >>>>>>of 'usual suspect' tell you any different while he tries
> >>>>>>to belittle and dismiss your efforts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I see through him.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, you avoid dealing with facts whether they're presented by me
> >>>
> >>>Like this (below)
> >>
> >>Some of us learn from our mistakes;
> >
> > Or, rather, some get taken in by the pushers and end
> > up being pushers themselves.
>
> That's why you're still a closed-minded vegan, fatso, despite all the
> evidence that your "diet" contributes to the very problem it's supposed
> to solve.

How odd? It's usually meat eaters who are involved in the killing of
animals and collateral deaths associated with a vegan diet. Those of use
who eat meat are just plain bad.

In article >,
usual suspect > wrote:

> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> humane slaughter which they object.

Killed, of course, by meat eaters. When the vegan buys the ingredients
for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
products, continues to kill.

"Ron" > wrote

> "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Reynard" > wrote
>> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>>
>> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
>> diets
>> are not bloodless.
>
> Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> logical rationalization.

If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?

> I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
> their daily lives without having to kill.

Who or what will you kill today?

"Ron" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>> "John Deere" > wrote
>>
>> > John Deere wrote:
>> > ...
>> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
>> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
>> >>
>> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
>> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
>> >
>> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
>> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
>> > vegetarian of some kind?
>> >
>> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
>> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
>> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
>> > will by finding some "justification"!
>>
>> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
>>
>> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> > once does deserve some praise.
>>
>> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> self-flattery.
>
> No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
> predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
> that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.

What are you going to kill today?

"Ron" > wrote

> usual suspect > wrote:
>
>> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
>> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
>> humane slaughter which they object.
>
> Killed, of course, by meat eaters.

Ipse dixit, in any case it's irrelevant, the vegan hires this person to do
his dirty work for him and thus is equally culpable. If you go to the street
and ask a common thief to steal you a stereo, you are complicit in that
crime when it is committed.

> When the vegan buys the ingredients
> for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
> rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
> products, continues to kill.

Farmers kill animals, regardless of their personal diets.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
>
> > "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Reynard" > wrote
> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
> >>
> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
> >> diets
> >> are not bloodless.
> >
> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> > logical rationalization.
>
> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?

I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
illogic in the law.

Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?

> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>
> Who or what will you kill today?

I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
that role for me. Why should I deny them the pleasure and the profit
that they obviously enjoy. While some laws, protect some animals and in
some situations (not so logical) animals lack legal rights (read
protections and punishments) as you and I do. As a result, livestock
(animals herded for mass killings at some point) get to fill that nature
in humans who get off on killing helpless and defenseless animals.

Personally, I'd rather have those individuals killing non-human animals
rather than humans, so I indulge them and do nothing to change the laws.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote:
> >
> >> "John Deere" > wrote
> >>
> >> > John Deere wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
> >> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
> >> >>
> >> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
> >> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
> >> >
> >> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
> >> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
> >> > vegetarian of some kind?
> >> >
> >> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
> >> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
> >> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
> >> > will by finding some "justification"!
> >>
> >> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
> >>
> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
> >> > once does deserve some praise.
> >>
> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
> >> self-flattery.
> >
> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
>
> What are you going to kill today?

I'm doing a community service. By keeping those who enjoy killing
focused on killing animals we can avoid them killing humans. I've killed
nothing today. Not even an infection to destroy. Oh, the nature of man
-- if it moves kill it.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
>
> > usual suspect > wrote:
> >
> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> >> humane slaughter which they object.
> >
> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>
> Ipse dixit, in any case it's irrelevant, the vegan hires this person to do
> his dirty work for him and thus is equally culpable. If you go to the street
> and ask a common thief to steal you a stereo, you are complicit in that
> crime when it is committed.

It's the lesser "evil". Animal killers are one step from being human
killers. Better them than me. It's unfortunate, but a reality of being
human. I often would like to ask someone who raises livestock (kills
animals en masse) how it feels when they kill one animal after another.

> > When the vegan buys the ingredients
> > for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
> > rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
> > products, continues to kill.
>
> Farmers kill animals, regardless of their personal diets.

Farmers are killers though. They are the one's I leave to kill animals.
I use their supplies so that they will confine their violence and
aggression to other animals. Any law that would prohibit the mass
killing of those animals would only leave those who are that
bloodthirsty to take it out on their spouses, children and the community.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >


snippage...


>> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> > once does deserve some praise.
>>
>> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> self-flattery.
>
> No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
> predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
> that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
====================
LOL You really are this stupid. What, or who, have you seen any meat
eaters kill? The fact remains they do not live up to the 'notion of not
causing harm.' A fact they prove with each inane post to usenet.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Reynard" > wrote
>> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>>
>> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
>> diets
>> are not bloodless.
>
> Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> logical rationalization.
=====================
No, it defies your retardation, idiot. That you can't understand that any
action that you take, that you know causes the exact result you claim to be
avoiding and makes you culpable, is quite amusing.

>
> I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am.
================
LOL ANy body is, fool


They can live
> their daily lives without having to kill.
==================
What have you or I killed today? Personally I don't kill anything myself,
so I guess to you I'm just as pure as a vegan, eh dolt?

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> usual suspect > wrote:
>
>> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
>> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
>> humane slaughter which they object.
>
> Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
=================
You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back it up.




When the vegan buys the ingredients
> for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
> rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
> products, continues to kill.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote
>>
>> > "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Reynard" > wrote
>> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>> >>
>> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
>> >> diets
>> >> are not bloodless.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
>> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
>> > logical rationalization.
>>
>> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?
>
> I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
> are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
> illogic in the law.
>
> Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?

Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
with impunity?

>> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
>> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>>
>> Who or what will you kill today?
>
> I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
> that role for me.

Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point

[..]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote
>> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "John Deere" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> > John Deere wrote:
>> >> > ...
>> >> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
>> >> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
>> >> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
>> >> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
>> >> > vegetarian of some kind?
>> >> >
>> >> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
>> >> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
>> >> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
>> >> > will by finding some "justification"!
>> >>
>> >> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
>> >>
>> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> >> > once does deserve some praise.
>> >>
>> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> >> self-flattery.
>> >
>> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
>> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
>> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
>>
>> What are you going to kill today?
>
> I'm doing a community service. By keeping those who enjoy killing
> focused on killing animals we can avoid them killing humans. I've killed
> nothing today. Not even an infection to destroy. Oh, the nature of man
> -- if it moves kill it.

Non-responsive.

"Ron" > wrote
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote
>>
>> > usual suspect > wrote:
>> >
>> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
>> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
>> >> humane slaughter which they object.
>> >
>> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>>
>> Ipse dixit, in any case it's irrelevant, the vegan hires this person to
>> do
>> his dirty work for him and thus is equally culpable. If you go to the
>> street
>> and ask a common thief to steal you a stereo, you are complicit in that
>> crime when it is committed.
>
> It's the lesser "evil".

No it's not.

> Animal killers are one step from being human
> killers. Better them than me. It's unfortunate, but a reality of being
> human. I often would like to ask someone who raises livestock (kills
> animals en masse) how it feels when they kill one animal after another.

How does it feel to supply the motive for them to do it? It would be about
the same.

>> > When the vegan buys the ingredients
>> > for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
>> > rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
>> > products, continues to kill.
>>
>> Farmers kill animals, regardless of their personal diets.
>
> Farmers are killers though. They are the one's I leave to kill animals.
> I use their supplies so that they will confine their violence and
> aggression to other animals. Any law that would prohibit the mass
> killing of those animals would only leave those who are that
> bloodthirsty to take it out on their spouses, children and the community.

You mean without farmers to do your dirty work you'd have to eat your own
family?

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >>
> >> > "Dutch" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Reynard" > wrote
> >> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> >> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
> >> >> diets
> >> >> are not bloodless.
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> >> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> >> > logical rationalization.
> >>
> >> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?
> >
> > I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
> > are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
> > illogic in the law.
> >
> > Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?
>
> Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
> with impunity?

Of course, we can and do and the answer is yes. That some idiot is
prepared to kill another on the promise of few pennies is just an excuse
for their original desire anyway.

Soldiers are hired killers. We justify their actions and so do they.
Executioners in states with death penalties are hired killers. Some
people argue doctors are killers in that abortion is killing and those
are paid acts. The US is currently invovled in war, many people are
being hired for those killings.

Now, don't dodge my question. Are you going to claim that the law is an
example of logic. I just provided several examples where the law DOES
allow for the hiring of killers.

> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
> >>
> >> Who or what will you kill today?
> >
> > I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
> > that role for me.
>
> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point

Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others (the
killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
position for the vegan hater. The vegan is certainly better than me that
they will choose to avoid harming an animal, but then I have my reasons
to see that harm to animals continue to avoid harm to others.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >> > "Dutch" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "John Deere" > wrote
> >> >>
> >> >> > John Deere wrote:
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
> >> >> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
> >> >> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
> >> >> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
> >> >> > vegetarian of some kind?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
> >> >> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
> >> >> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
> >> >> > will by finding some "justification"!
> >> >>
> >> >> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
> >> >>
> >> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
> >> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
> >> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
> >> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
> >> >> > once does deserve some praise.
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
> >> >> self-flattery.
> >> >
> >> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
> >> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
> >> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
> >>
> >> What are you going to kill today?
> >
> > I'm doing a community service. By keeping those who enjoy killing
> > focused on killing animals we can avoid them killing humans. I've killed
> > nothing today. Not even an infection to destroy. Oh, the nature of man
> > -- if it moves kill it.
>
> Non-responsive.

I've never killed for fun, food or profit. I leave those activities to
those who are mentally disturbed and derive pleasure from such actions

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ron" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> > "Dutch" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Reynard" > wrote
>> >> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> >> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> diets
>> >> >> are not bloodless.
>> >> >
>> >> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
>> >> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
>> >> > logical rationalization.
>> >>
>> >> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?
>> >
>> > I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
>> > are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
>> > illogic in the law.
>> >
>> > Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?
>>
>> Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
>> with impunity?
>
> Of course, we can and do and the answer is yes. That some idiot is
> prepared to kill another on the promise of few pennies is just an excuse
> for their original desire anyway.
>
> Soldiers are hired killers. We justify their actions and so do they.
> Executioners in states with death penalties are hired killers. Some
> people argue doctors are killers in that abortion is killing and those
> are paid acts. The US is currently invovled in war, many people are
> being hired for those killings.
>
> Now, don't dodge my question. Are you going to claim that the law is an
> example of logic. I just provided several examples where the law DOES
> allow for the hiring of killers.
>
>> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
>> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>> >>
>> >> Who or what will you kill today?
>> >
>> > I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
>> > that role for me.
>>
>> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
>
> Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others (the
> killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
> position for the vegan hater.
===========================
I find your ignorance to be far more consistant, fool. In the cases you
try to use above, you fail miserably. Why? Because those are actions we
are responsible for. We pay for them, we back them. We aren't claiming one
thing, and then doing another. That is the difference between us and
vegans. They claim that their *actions* result in either no death of animsl
or ferwer. Both are false. Vegnas have achoice of actions to take. The
ones here on usenet invariably take the selfish, easy, conveninet route.
They take actions that they *know* results in the death and suffering of
animals, despite their claim of living a life that causes none/less/fewer.
So, you can continue your troll now, knowing that your ignorance is well
known, fool.



The vegan is certainly better than me that
> they will choose to avoid harming an animal, but then I have my reasons
> to see that harm to animals continue to avoid harm to others.
==============
Ignorance on display....

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ron" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> > "Dutch" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Reynard" > wrote
>> >> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> >> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> diets
>> >> >> are not bloodless.
>> >> >
>> >> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
>> >> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
>> >> > logical rationalization.
>> >>
>> >> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?
>> >
>> > I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
>> > are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
>> > illogic in the law.
>> >
>> > Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?
>>
>> Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
>> with impunity?
>
> Of course, we can and do and the answer is yes. That some idiot is
> prepared to kill another on the promise of few pennies is just an excuse
> for their original desire anyway.
>
> Soldiers are hired killers. We justify their actions and so do they.
> Executioners in states with death penalties are hired killers. Some
> people argue doctors are killers in that abortion is killing and those
> are paid acts. The US is currently invovled in war, many people are
> being hired for those killings.
>
> Now, don't dodge my question. Are you going to claim that the law is an
> example of logic. I just provided several examples where the law DOES
> allow for the hiring of killers.
>
>> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
>> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>> >>
>> >> Who or what will you kill today?
>> >
>> > I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
>> > that role for me.
>>
>> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
>
> Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others (the
> killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
> position for the vegan hater.
===========================
I find your ignorance to be far more consistant, fool. In the cases you
try to use above, you fail miserably. Why? Because those are actions we
are responsible for. We pay for them, we back them. We aren't claiming one
thing, and then doing another. That is the difference between us and
vegans. They claim that their *actions* result in either no death of animsl
or ferwer. Both are false. Vegnas have achoice of actions to take. The
ones here on usenet invariably take the selfish, easy, conveninet route.
They take actions that they *know* results in the death and suffering of
animals, despite their claim of living a life that causes none/less/fewer.
So, you can continue your troll now, knowing that your ignorance is well
known, fool.



The vegan is certainly better than me that
> they will choose to avoid harming an animal, but then I have my reasons
> to see that harm to animals continue to avoid harm to others.
==============
Ignorance on display....

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >>
> >> > usual suspect > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
> >> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> >> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> >> >> humane slaughter which they object.
> >> >
> >> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
> >>
> >> Ipse dixit, in any case it's irrelevant, the vegan hires this person to
> >> do
> >> his dirty work for him and thus is equally culpable. If you go to the
> >> street
> >> and ask a common thief to steal you a stereo, you are complicit in that
> >> crime when it is committed.
> >
> > It's the lesser "evil".
>
> No it's not.
>
> > Animal killers are one step from being human
> > killers. Better them than me. It's unfortunate, but a reality of being
> > human. I often would like to ask someone who raises livestock (kills
> > animals en masse) how it feels when they kill one animal after another.
>
> How does it feel to supply the motive for them to do it? It would be about
> the same.

If people need to blame me for their actions, well, I'm a big boy and
can handle that. The reality is, of course, that anyone who kills and
relies on the "they made me do it argument" is just being juvenile and
passing responsibility for their own actions.

Until we can find a suitable treatment or cure for individuals who
delight in take the lives of other animals and would likely inflict that
aggression on humans, my CHOICE is to allow the behaviour to continue.
As a matter of survival if it is the difference between a cow dying or
some crazed person who delights in killing animals being lose in the
community to fill their lust for blood and death -- the cow looses.

> >> > When the vegan buys the ingredients
> >> > for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
> >> > rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
> >> > products, continues to kill.
> >>
> >> Farmers kill animals, regardless of their personal diets.
> >
> > Farmers are killers though. They are the one's I leave to kill animals.
> > I use their supplies so that they will confine their violence and
> > aggression to other animals. Any law that would prohibit the mass
> > killing of those animals would only leave those who are that
> > bloodthirsty to take it out on their spouses, children and the community.
>
> You mean without farmers to do your dirty work you'd have to eat your own
> family?

Not at all. If everyone were to suddenly stop eating meat then, those
who are also violent and aggressive to begin with, those who have done
nothing to ensure they could survive without this industry would be even
more desperate. What skills and value to the community does one have
when their only skill really is the ability to inflict pain, suffering
and death.

Who would those killers of animals take out their aggression on if they
didn't have the animals that they do have that they can slaughter with
impugnity now? Of course, a farmer who wanted to have fun, food and
profit from keeping a farm of dogs, slaughtering and selling them would
face a different outcome. The farmer will get theirs. It is more a
question that we find treatment and cures for the violent tendencies
that farmers (and often males) display.

In article et>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>
>
> snippage...
>
>
> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
> >> > once does deserve some praise.
> >>
> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
> >> self-flattery.
> >
> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
> ====================
> LOL You really are this stupid. What, or who, have you seen any meat
> eaters kill? The fact remains they do not live up to the 'notion of not
> causing harm.' A fact they prove with each inane post to usenet.

Do you farm animals -- I mean kill animals for fun, food and profit? I
find you unable to conduct yourself in a civil manner in a public space.
Given the demonstration of aggression on your part, imagine the
capabilities of one who fill their need for blood and death on a regular
basis. If one is unable to control themselves after reading a paragraph
or two and must act out then, imagine what the individual who finds
'therapy' in killing animals regularly is capable of if we were to take
away their ability to kill animals.

That you've continued to demonstrate some pleasure with calling people
names and being abusive, one can only imagine with the farmer/killer
experiences when personally killing an animal.

In article . net>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Reynard" > wrote
> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
> >>
> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
> >> diets
> >> are not bloodless.
> >
> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> > logical rationalization.
> =====================
> No, it defies your retardation, idiot. That you can't understand that any
> action that you take, that you know causes the exact result you claim to be
> avoiding and makes you culpable, is quite amusing.

I stated my culpability. I am participating in allowing killers to kill
animals to provide safety and security to those who must live in
proximity to people who are thrive on bloodlust and the infliction of
pain, suffering and death. Like paedophilia, there is no known cure for
individuals who delight in the killing of animals. I choose it as a
'lesser of two evils'. I am fully aware of what I do and why I do it.

I eat meat several days each week to ensure that there is an ample
requirement for meat products as the meat killers are unwilling to
accept responsibility for their actions against animals. Like most
treatment and cure, until they can respond to their denial I must
moderate my choices. Since, I do know they are unwilling to accept
responsibility, I make my choices.

> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am.
> ================
> LOL ANy body is, fool

Have you considered raising livestock? Your level of aggression that you
display towards humans might be better served killing animals.

> They can live
> > their daily lives without having to kill.
> ==================
> What have you or I killed today? Personally I don't kill anything myself,
> so I guess to you I'm just as pure as a vegan, eh dolt?

That would be correct. You and I are only responsible for our actions.
Neither of us killed anything today and neither did any vegan that I've
spoken with tody.

If you "feel" guilty, I suspect that is your difficulty and has nothing
to do with the fact that neither of killed an animal today.

In article et>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > usual suspect > wrote:
> >
> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> >> humane slaughter which they object.
> >
> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
> =================
> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back it up.

What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
usual? Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
part. Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
animals are vegan or meat eater?

In article . net>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >> >>
> >> >> > "Dutch" >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Reynard" > wrote
> >> >> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> >> >> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that
> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> diets
> >> >> >> are not bloodless.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> >> >> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> >> >> > logical rationalization.
> >> >>
> >> >> If it's illogical then why are people who hire killers sent to prison?
> >> >
> >> > I see. It's in the law so it must be logical. Humans craft laws. Humans
> >> > are often times illogical. Ergo, it is possible to find instances of
> >> > illogic in the law.
> >> >
> >> > Dutch, are you going to claim that the law conforms to logic?
> >>
> >> Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
> >> with impunity?
> >
> > Of course, we can and do and the answer is yes. That some idiot is
> > prepared to kill another on the promise of few pennies is just an excuse
> > for their original desire anyway.
> >
> > Soldiers are hired killers. We justify their actions and so do they.
> > Executioners in states with death penalties are hired killers. Some
> > people argue doctors are killers in that abortion is killing and those
> > are paid acts. The US is currently invovled in war, many people are
> > being hired for those killings.
> >
> > Now, don't dodge my question. Are you going to claim that the law is an
> > example of logic. I just provided several examples where the law DOES
> > allow for the hiring of killers.
> >
> >> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> >> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
> >> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
> >> >>
> >> >> Who or what will you kill today?
> >> >
> >> > I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
> >> > that role for me.
> >>
> >> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
> >
> > Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others (the
> > killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
> > position for the vegan hater.
> ===========================
> I find your ignorance to be far more consistant, fool. In the cases you
> try to use above, you fail miserably. Why? Because those are actions we
> are responsible for. We pay for them, we back them. We aren't claiming one
> thing, and then doing another. That is the difference between us and
> vegans. They claim that their *actions* result in either no death of animsl
> or ferwer. Both are false. Vegnas have achoice of actions to take. The
> ones here on usenet invariably take the selfish, easy, conveninet route.
> They take actions that they *know* results in the death and suffering of
> animals, despite their claim of living a life that causes none/less/fewer.
> So, you can continue your troll now, knowing that your ignorance is well
> known, fool.

I'm more than a little concerned about your desire to take
responsibility for the actions of others. Feel free to blame yourself
for what bloodthirsty people do, but personally, I know that I am
responsible for my actions only. Unlike those who raise and kill animals
en masse, I have the ability to control my behaviour and my emotions --
they don't. To blame myself for their actions is just foolishness.

People who inflict pain and suffering on animals for fun, food and
profit do so because they get their rocks off doing it. I allow it to
happen to save myself and the community from that type of mental
illness. It is a choice and I also leave responsibility where it
belongs. Their violence is their problem.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > usual suspect > wrote:
>> >
>> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
>> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
>> >> humane slaughter which they object.
>> >
>> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>> =================
>> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back it
>> up.
>
> What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
> products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
> raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
> usual?
================================
Don't know who you're talking to even anymore, eh fool? Try reading for
comprehension, for a chnage. The comment was about those people that
produce food for vegans. You remember them, don't you? They're the loons
we've been talking about for weeks now. Now, you like to spew about those
that produce beef, pork, and seafood. Seems to me that none of those are
vegan foods, are they?


Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
> killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
> part.
=======================
Why fool? Are you really this clueless? Oh wait, you've already proven
that, haven't you. Try checking out any number of growers that claim to be
'organic'. I'd bet more than a few would be vegan, yet their farming will
still cause animals to die.


Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
> animals are vegan or meat eater?
============================
And again, we aren't talking here about meat, fool. Those are hardly vegan
foods. Besides, if you really understood the term, you'd realize that it is
you that has made assumptions of farmers, without actually having any info,
must less the minimun needed, fool. Have you questioned however many
farmers there are? Remember, not all farmers raise animals, yet they still
kill them.

Keep up the good work in proving your ignorance, pansy-boy.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > usual suspect > wrote:
>> >
>> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
>> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
>> >> humane slaughter which they object.
>> >
>> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>> =================
>> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back it
>> up.
>
> What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
> products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
> raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
> usual?
================================
Don't know who you're talking to even anymore, eh fool? Try reading for
comprehension, for a chnage. The comment was about those people that
produce food for vegans. You remember them, don't you? They're the loons
we've been talking about for weeks now. Now, you like to spew about those
that produce beef, pork, and seafood. Seems to me that none of those are
vegan foods, are they?


Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
> killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
> part.
=======================
Why fool? Are you really this clueless? Oh wait, you've already proven
that, haven't you. Try checking out any number of growers that claim to be
'organic'. I'd bet more than a few would be vegan, yet their farming will
still cause animals to die.


Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
> animals are vegan or meat eater?
============================
And again, we aren't talking here about meat, fool. Those are hardly vegan
foods. Besides, if you really understood the term, you'd realize that it is
you that has made assumptions of farmers, without actually having any info,
must less the minimun needed, fool. Have you questioned however many
farmers there are? Remember, not all farmers raise animals, yet they still
kill them.

Keep up the good work in proving your ignorance, pansy-boy.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>

snips...
>> >> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
>> >
>> > Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others
>> > (the
>> > killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
>> > position for the vegan hater.
>> ===========================
>> I find your ignorance to be far more consistant, fool. In the cases you
>> try to use above, you fail miserably. Why? Because those are actions we
>> are responsible for. We pay for them, we back them. We aren't claiming
>> one
>> thing, and then doing another. That is the difference between us and
>> vegans. They claim that their *actions* result in either no death of
>> animsl
>> or ferwer. Both are false. Vegnas have achoice of actions to take. The
>> ones here on usenet invariably take the selfish, easy, conveninet route.
>> They take actions that they *know* results in the death and suffering of
>> animals, despite their claim of living a life that causes
>> none/less/fewer.
>> So, you can continue your troll now, knowing that your ignorance is well
>> known, fool.
>
> I'm more than a little concerned about your desire to take
> responsibility for the actions of others. Feel free to blame yourself
> for what bloodthirsty people do, but personally, I know that I am
> responsible for my actions only.
=====================
Exactly, fool. The actions you take lead delberatly to animal death and
suffering. you could take other actions, but you don't. Your actionms lead
to those deaths, making you culpably. The difference here between you and
vegans is that you understand that your choices cause death and suffering.
They keep making claims that their choices do not.

Unlike those who raise and kill animals
> en masse, I have the ability to control my behaviour and my emotions --
> they don't. To blame myself for their actions is just foolishness.
=====================
Yes, your foolishness in clearly displayed, dolt.

>
> People who inflict pain and suffering on animals for fun, food and
> profit do so because they get their rocks off doing it.
======================
Really? Care to prove that little bit of delusional idiocy, mr freud?

I allow it to
> happen to save myself and the community from that type of mental
> illness. It is a choice and I also leave responsibility where it
> belongs. Their violence is their problem.
================
Ignorance on display. Thanks for a look at mental idiocy, pansy-boy.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>

snips...
>> >> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
>> >
>> > Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others
>> > (the
>> > killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
>> > position for the vegan hater.
>> ===========================
>> I find your ignorance to be far more consistant, fool. In the cases you
>> try to use above, you fail miserably. Why? Because those are actions we
>> are responsible for. We pay for them, we back them. We aren't claiming
>> one
>> thing, and then doing another. That is the difference between us and
>> vegans. They claim that their *actions* result in either no death of
>> animsl
>> or ferwer. Both are false. Vegnas have achoice of actions to take. The
>> ones here on usenet invariably take the selfish, easy, conveninet route.
>> They take actions that they *know* results in the death and suffering of
>> animals, despite their claim of living a life that causes
>> none/less/fewer.
>> So, you can continue your troll now, knowing that your ignorance is well
>> known, fool.
>
> I'm more than a little concerned about your desire to take
> responsibility for the actions of others. Feel free to blame yourself
> for what bloodthirsty people do, but personally, I know that I am
> responsible for my actions only.
=====================
Exactly, fool. The actions you take lead delberatly to animal death and
suffering. you could take other actions, but you don't. Your actionms lead
to those deaths, making you culpably. The difference here between you and
vegans is that you understand that your choices cause death and suffering.
They keep making claims that their choices do not.

Unlike those who raise and kill animals
> en masse, I have the ability to control my behaviour and my emotions --
> they don't. To blame myself for their actions is just foolishness.
=====================
Yes, your foolishness in clearly displayed, dolt.

>
> People who inflict pain and suffering on animals for fun, food and
> profit do so because they get their rocks off doing it.
======================
Really? Care to prove that little bit of delusional idiocy, mr freud?

I allow it to
> happen to save myself and the community from that type of mental
> illness. It is a choice and I also leave responsibility where it
> belongs. Their violence is their problem.
================
Ignorance on display. Thanks for a look at mental idiocy, pansy-boy.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Reynard" > wrote
>> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>> >>
>> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
>> >> diets
>> >> are not bloodless.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
>> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
>> > logical rationalization.
>> =====================
>> No, it defies your retardation, idiot. That you can't understand that
>> any
>> action that you take, that you know causes the exact result you claim to
>> be
>> avoiding and makes you culpable, is quite amusing.
>
> I stated my culpability. I am participating in allowing killers to kill
> animals to provide safety and security to those who must live in
> proximity to people who are thrive on bloodlust and the infliction of
> pain, suffering and death. Like paedophilia, there is no known cure for
> individuals who delight in the killing of animals. I choose it as a
> 'lesser of two evils'. I am fully aware of what I do and why I do it.
>
> I eat meat several days each week to ensure that there is an ample
> requirement for meat products as the meat killers are unwilling to
> accept responsibility for their actions against animals. Like most
> treatment and cure, until they can respond to their denial I must
> moderate my choices. Since, I do know they are unwilling to accept
> responsibility, I make my choices.
================
Total lack of intellegent response noted. Total display of ignorance
shown, yet again. Tell us again how yyou have determined that vegan food
producers have all somehow become physco-paths, mr freud.


>
>> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am.
>> ================
>> LOL ANy body is, fool
>
> Have you considered raising livestock? Your level of aggression that you
> display towards humans might be better served killing animals.
=====================
Really? What animals are rasised for food for vegans, idiot?


>
>> They can live
>> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>> ==================
>> What have you or I killed today? Personally I don't kill anything
>> myself,
>> so I guess to you I'm just as pure as a vegan, eh dolt?
>
> That would be correct. You and I are only responsible for our actions.
> Neither of us killed anything today and neither did any vegan that I've
> spoken with tody.
=====================
Yes, we are responsible for our actions. That your are trying to weasel
your way out still doesn't work, fool. You knowing take actionas that
result in animal deaths, you are culpable.


>
> If you "feel" guilty, I suspect that is your difficulty and has nothing
> to do with the fact that neither of killed an animal today.
======================
And it still doesn't absolve either of us from the fact that animals died as
a direct result of our *actions*. Kepp up the good work displaying your
ignorance, pansy-boy.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Reynard" > wrote
>> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
>> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
>> >>
>> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
>> >> diets
>> >> are not bloodless.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
>> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
>> > logical rationalization.
>> =====================
>> No, it defies your retardation, idiot. That you can't understand that
>> any
>> action that you take, that you know causes the exact result you claim to
>> be
>> avoiding and makes you culpable, is quite amusing.
>
> I stated my culpability. I am participating in allowing killers to kill
> animals to provide safety and security to those who must live in
> proximity to people who are thrive on bloodlust and the infliction of
> pain, suffering and death. Like paedophilia, there is no known cure for
> individuals who delight in the killing of animals. I choose it as a
> 'lesser of two evils'. I am fully aware of what I do and why I do it.
>
> I eat meat several days each week to ensure that there is an ample
> requirement for meat products as the meat killers are unwilling to
> accept responsibility for their actions against animals. Like most
> treatment and cure, until they can respond to their denial I must
> moderate my choices. Since, I do know they are unwilling to accept
> responsibility, I make my choices.
================
Total lack of intellegent response noted. Total display of ignorance
shown, yet again. Tell us again how yyou have determined that vegan food
producers have all somehow become physco-paths, mr freud.


>
>> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am.
>> ================
>> LOL ANy body is, fool
>
> Have you considered raising livestock? Your level of aggression that you
> display towards humans might be better served killing animals.
=====================
Really? What animals are rasised for food for vegans, idiot?


>
>> They can live
>> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>> ==================
>> What have you or I killed today? Personally I don't kill anything
>> myself,
>> so I guess to you I'm just as pure as a vegan, eh dolt?
>
> That would be correct. You and I are only responsible for our actions.
> Neither of us killed anything today and neither did any vegan that I've
> spoken with tody.
=====================
Yes, we are responsible for our actions. That your are trying to weasel
your way out still doesn't work, fool. You knowing take actionas that
result in animal deaths, you are culpable.


>
> If you "feel" guilty, I suspect that is your difficulty and has nothing
> to do with the fact that neither of killed an animal today.
======================
And it still doesn't absolve either of us from the fact that animals died as
a direct result of our *actions*. Kepp up the good work displaying your
ignorance, pansy-boy.

In article . net>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article et>,
> > "rick etter" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article >,
> >> > usual suspect > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan" food
> >> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> >> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> >> >> humane slaughter which they object.
> >> >
> >> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
> >> =================
> >> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back it
> >> up.
> >
> > What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
> > products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
> > raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
> > usual?
> ================================
> Don't know who you're talking to even anymore, eh fool? Try reading for
> comprehension, for a chnage. The comment was about those people that
> produce food for vegans. You remember them, don't you? They're the loons
> we've been talking about for weeks now. Now, you like to spew about those
> that produce beef, pork, and seafood. Seems to me that none of those are
> vegan foods, are they?

Same group. Who does produce food for vegans. Who are the rice growers
of the world? Meat eater, or vegan? Who are the people who use the
products and chemicals that you so kindly point out are responsible
(oops, there's that word) for the collateral death of animals. Who is
that is killing the rodents, amphibians and such -- the meat eater or
the vegan. Farmers and growers are the killers. Some of us tolerate
their violence in the world.

> Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
> > killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
> > part.
> =======================
> Why fool? Are you really this clueless? Oh wait, you've already proven
> that, haven't you. Try checking out any number of growers that claim to be
> 'organic'. I'd bet more than a few would be vegan, yet their farming will
> still cause animals to die.

AH, a few might be vegan. Shall we do a comparison of farms operated by
vegans and meat eaters and killers. it's always easy and intellectually
dishonest to generalize to avoid reality.

> Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
> > animals are vegan or meat eater?
> ============================
> And again, we aren't talking here about meat, fool. Those are hardly vegan
> foods.

Do pay attention. Dutch specifically spoke to raising livestock.

> Besides, if you really understood the term, you'd realize that it is
> you that has made assumptions of farmers, without actually having any info,
> must less the minimun needed, fool. Have you questioned however many
> farmers there are? Remember, not all farmers raise animals, yet they still
> kill them.
>
> Keep up the good work in proving your ignorance, pansy-boy.

You must raise livestock. Your propensity for abuse and violence is
familiar to those of us reading. And if not, you might find some
'release' in those acts. I imagine eating meat is less satisfactory than
actually being hands on with killing.

But let's go another round of blaming the vegan for the actions of
others. It is consistent with our culture of passing the buck -- no one
is responsible for anything, everyone is responsible for everything.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>>
>>
>> snippage...
>>
>>
>> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> >> > once does deserve some praise.
>> >>
>> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> >> self-flattery.
>> >
>> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
>> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
>> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
>> ====================
>> LOL You really are this stupid. What, or who, have you seen any meat
>> eaters kill? The fact remains they do not live up to the 'notion of not
>> causing harm.' A fact they prove with each inane post to usenet.
>
> Do you farm animals -- I mean kill animals for fun, food and profit?
=================
Do you?

I
> find you unable to conduct yourself in a civil manner in a public space.
====================
LOL Really? Where wold you have seen that, pansy-boy?



> Given the demonstration of aggression on your part, imagine the
> capabilities of one who fill their need for blood and death on a regular
> basis. If one is unable to control themselves after reading a paragraph
> or two and must act out then, imagine what the individual who finds
> 'therapy' in killing animals regularly is capable of if we were to take
> away their ability to kill animals.
>
> That you've continued to demonstrate some pleasure with calling people
> names and being abusive, one can only imagine with the farmer/killer
> experiences when personally killing an animal.
========================
Continued display of ignorance on display. Keep up the good work, fool.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>>
>>
>> snippage...
>>
>>
>> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> >> > once does deserve some praise.
>> >>
>> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> >> self-flattery.
>> >
>> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a culture
>> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
>> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
>> ====================
>> LOL You really are this stupid. What, or who, have you seen any meat
>> eaters kill? The fact remains they do not live up to the 'notion of not
>> causing harm.' A fact they prove with each inane post to usenet.
>
> Do you farm animals -- I mean kill animals for fun, food and profit?
=================
Do you?

I
> find you unable to conduct yourself in a civil manner in a public space.
====================
LOL Really? Where wold you have seen that, pansy-boy?



> Given the demonstration of aggression on your part, imagine the
> capabilities of one who fill their need for blood and death on a regular
> basis. If one is unable to control themselves after reading a paragraph
> or two and must act out then, imagine what the individual who finds
> 'therapy' in killing animals regularly is capable of if we were to take
> away their ability to kill animals.
>
> That you've continued to demonstrate some pleasure with calling people
> names and being abusive, one can only imagine with the farmer/killer
> experiences when personally killing an animal.
========================
Continued display of ignorance on display. Keep up the good work, fool.

"Ron" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote:
[..]

>> Quit dodging and answer the question. Should we be able to hire murderers
>> with impunity?
>
> Of course, we can and do and the answer is yes. That some idiot is
> prepared to kill another on the promise of few pennies is just an excuse
> for their original desire anyway.

So a smart and moral thing to do in Rons' World if you get fed up with an
annoying spouse, child or in-law would be to simply hire someone to bump
them off, with impunity. Pretty scary world.

> Soldiers are hired killers. We justify their actions and so do they.
> Executioners in states with death penalties are hired killers. Some
> people argue doctors are killers in that abortion is killing and those
> are paid acts. The US is currently invovled in war, many people are
> being hired for those killings.

None of those exceptional circumstances gives us the right to have any
person killed we choose to kill.

> Now, don't dodge my question. Are you going to claim that the law is an
> example of logic.

Yes it is. If it is considered immoral to hire killers, then it is logical
to make it illegal.

> I just provided several examples where the law DOES
> allow for the hiring of killers.

Neither exceptions nor violations invalidate a moral rule. Morality is not
mathematics, it's a social construct that is used to modify behaviour.

>> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
>> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am. They can live
>> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
>> >>
>> >> Who or what will you kill today?
>> >
>> > I don't need to kill. There are plenty of others who willingly take on
>> > that role for me.
>>
>> Exactly, just like vegans. Thanks for illustrating my point
>
> Once again, you hold others (the vegan) responsible for what others (the
> killers and farmers) do. I find passing responsibility is a consistent
> position for the vegan hater. The vegan is certainly better than me that
> they will choose to avoid harming an animal, but then I have my reasons
> to see that harm to animals continue to avoid harm to others.

According to your logic neither you nor the vegan is responsible for what
others do, and since neither of you is killing any animals, how do you
conclude that the vegan is better than you?

"Ron" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, "Dutch" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ron" > wrote
>> >> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "John Deere" > wrote
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > John Deere wrote:
>> >> >> > ...
>> >> >> >> a) You have very limited understanding and reasoning powers, or
>> >> >> >> b) You are lying to yourself for some twisted reason.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In your case, (a) may be valid, though the original proponent
>> >> >> >> of your argument appears to be more of a strong (b) situation.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Reading the thread, the "twisted reason" becomes a little
>> >> >> > clear: apparently the OP was some sort of a lapsed
>> >> >> > vegetarian of some kind?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That would explain the extreme irrationality mixed
>> >> >> > with much hatred. It would be springing from
>> >> >> > an extreme driving need to deny one's lack of
>> >> >> > will by finding some "justification"!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You have absolutely no excuse for this degree of ignorance.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > FWIW, I think there should not be any stigma attached
>> >> >> > to people who couldn't stick with a veg*n diet
>> >> >> > due to lack of will. When people are raised on
>> >> >> > meat in every meal, just the effort they made
>> >> >> > once does deserve some praise.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess that makes you some kind of saint then.. typical vegan
>> >> >> self-flattery.
>> >> >
>> >> > No, it just makes them better than those of who eat meat. In a
>> >> > culture
>> >> > predicated on the notion of not causing harm, they do seem to manage
>> >> > that. I have yet to see a vegan kill anyone or anything.
>> >>
>> >> What are you going to kill today?
>> >
>> > I'm doing a community service. By keeping those who enjoy killing
>> > focused on killing animals we can avoid them killing humans. I've
>> > killed
>> > nothing today. Not even an infection to destroy. Oh, the nature of man
>> > -- if it moves kill it.
>>
>> Non-responsive.
>
> I've never killed for fun, food or profit. I leave those activities to
> those who are mentally disturbed and derive pleasure from such actions.

Then by what logic is a vegan better than you?

In article . net>,
"rick etter" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article . net>,
> > "rick etter" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Reynard" > wrote
> >> >> > They are doing exactly what they say they're doing: abstaining
> >> >> > from meat, so stop pushing it onto them, pusher.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's not about "pushing meat", it's about reminding vegans that their
> >> >> diets
> >> >> are not bloodless.
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, arguments such as the one that Dutch makes assumes a
> >> > degree of responsibility for the actions of others that defies any
> >> > logical rationalization.
> >> =====================
> >> No, it defies your retardation, idiot. That you can't understand that
> >> any
> >> action that you take, that you know causes the exact result you claim to
> >> be
> >> avoiding and makes you culpable, is quite amusing.
> >
> > I stated my culpability. I am participating in allowing killers to kill
> > animals to provide safety and security to those who must live in
> > proximity to people who are thrive on bloodlust and the infliction of
> > pain, suffering and death. Like paedophilia, there is no known cure for
> > individuals who delight in the killing of animals. I choose it as a
> > 'lesser of two evils'. I am fully aware of what I do and why I do it.
> >
> > I eat meat several days each week to ensure that there is an ample
> > requirement for meat products as the meat killers are unwilling to
> > accept responsibility for their actions against animals. Like most
> > treatment and cure, until they can respond to their denial I must
> > moderate my choices. Since, I do know they are unwilling to accept
> > responsibility, I make my choices.
> ================
> Total lack of intellegent response noted. Total display of ignorance
> shown, yet again. Tell us again how yyou have determined that vegan food
> producers have all somehow become physco-paths, mr freud.

Vegan food producers are rarely involved in killing. Food producers
(meat eating) producing food for vegans can and are involved in the
killing of animals. Killing animals en masse to grow a few fields is the
act of someone who is quite fine with killing. Now would you like to
mention a few vegan farmers who are producing. Or will you continue to
make generalizations out of desperation.

Psychopaths? Well, I'm relying on your information here. Someone who is
willing to kill rodents, amphibians, birds etc. and en masse isn't
exactly stable in my view. To delight in the destruction of those
animals and to that degree is obviously by someone who doesn't value
animals. Of course, killing amphibians to grow rice isn't really killing
an animal for food now, is it?

> >> > I admire vegans in that they do seem to be able to live up to their
> >> > ethical values. Vegans are certainly better than I am.
> >> ================
> >> LOL ANy body is, fool
> >
> > Have you considered raising livestock? Your level of aggression that you
> > display towards humans might be better served killing animals.
> =====================
> Really? What animals are rasised for food for vegans, idiot?

Do pay attention and stay on track. That you willfully ignore what Dutch
has written to further your opportunities for public abusive behaviour
makes you a prime candidate to raise livestock. I hope there aren't
weaker humans in your presence. Yikes, if a child or weaker individual
might disagree with you and do so in person.

As you can see, violence is the nature of the beast. Some of us are able
to contain our emotions and moderate out actions and others....

> >> They can live
> >> > their daily lives without having to kill.
> >> ==================
> >> What have you or I killed today? Personally I don't kill anything
> >> myself,
> >> so I guess to you I'm just as pure as a vegan, eh dolt?
> >
> > That would be correct. You and I are only responsible for our actions.
> > Neither of us killed anything today and neither did any vegan that I've
> > spoken with tody.
> =====================
> Yes, we are responsible for our actions. That your are trying to weasel
> your way out still doesn't work, fool. You knowing take actionas that
> result in animal deaths, you are culpable.

What actions do I take? I think you might fit into the pathology that I
was mentioning earlier. Walk to store -- nothing dies. Plan menu en
route -- nothing dies. Walk through store -- nothing dies. Buy
ingredients -- nothing dies. Take out money -- nothing dies. Go home --
nothing dies. Eat my meal -- nothing dies.

Please define my actions of killing? What weapon did I use?

> > If you "feel" guilty, I suspect that is your difficulty and has nothing
> > to do with the fact that neither of killed an animal today.
> ======================
> And it still doesn't absolve either of us from the fact that animals died as
> a direct result of our *actions*. Kepp up the good work displaying your
> ignorance, pansy-boy.

As a result of my actions? There you go put forth foolish arguments.
It's like the rapist who claims, "she made me do it". I now control you.
Anything you do is my fault. You are powerless to resist my every whim.
You must respond. You have no will, desire or control over your own
behaviour.

"Ron" > wrote

> If people need to blame me for their actions, well, I'm a big boy and
> can handle that. The reality is, of course, that anyone who kills and
> relies on the "they made me do it argument" is just being juvenile and
> passing responsibility for their own actions.

Who makes you place a demand for meat on the meat market?

>
> Until we can find a suitable treatment or cure for individuals who
> delight in take the lives of other animals and would likely inflict that
> aggression on humans, my CHOICE is to allow the behaviour to continue.
> As a matter of survival if it is the difference between a cow dying or
> some crazed person who delights in killing animals being lose in the
> community to fill their lust for blood and death -- the cow looses.

Right, a process admittedly supported by you.


[..]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article et>,
>> > "rick etter" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > In article >,
>> >> > usual suspect > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan"
>> >> >> food
>> >> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> >> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> humane slaughter which they object.
>> >> >
>> >> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>> >> =================
>> >> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back
>> >> it
>> >> up.
>> >
>> > What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
>> > products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
>> > raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
>> > usual?
>> ================================
>> Don't know who you're talking to even anymore, eh fool? Try reading for
>> comprehension, for a chnage. The comment was about those people that
>> produce food for vegans. You remember them, don't you? They're the
>> loons
>> we've been talking about for weeks now. Now, you like to spew about
>> those
>> that produce beef, pork, and seafood. Seems to me that none of those are
>> vegan foods, are they?
>
> Same group. Who does produce food for vegans.
======================
Not the same ones that rasie meat, fool.


Who are the rice growers
> of the world? Meat eater, or vegan?
=====================
Have you checked? Prove that a fair number of rice growers world-wide are
not vegan.

Who are the people who use the
> products and chemicals that you so kindly point out are responsible
> (oops, there's that word) for the collateral death of animals.
==========================
Have you checked? Prove that a fair number of organic growers are not
vegan.


Who is
> that is killing the rodents, amphibians and such -- the meat eater or
> the vegan. Farmers and growers are the killers.
===================
Exactly. But that doesn't mean that all of them are meat-eaters, now does
it, fool?


Some of us tolerate
> their violence in the world.
=======================
And are culpable for it. Thanks for pointing that out, pansy-boy....



>
>> Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
>> > killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
>> > part.
>> =======================
>> Why fool? Are you really this clueless? Oh wait, you've already proven
>> that, haven't you. Try checking out any number of growers that claim to
>> be
>> 'organic'. I'd bet more than a few would be vegan, yet their farming
>> will
>> still cause animals to die.
>
> AH, a few might be vegan. Shall we do a comparison of farms operated by
> vegans and meat eaters and killers. it's always easy and intellectually
> dishonest to generalize to avoid reality.
==============================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!! It was you that generalized all growers, you
ignorant fool! Man, what a maroon... Besides, if you could read for
comprhension, you'd see that this discussion was about 'vegan' food! Not
meats. Of course, we know that your comprehension is sorely lacking.


>
>> Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
>> > animals are vegan or meat eater?
>> ============================
>> And again, we aren't talking here about meat, fool. Those are hardly
>> vegan
>> foods.
>
> Do pay attention. Dutch specifically spoke to raising livestock.
=====================
Not at the top of this thread were I responded fool. Your response was to
Usual, and the discussion was not about livestock. Need a refresher, fool?
try reading for comprehension.
quoted text....
Usual>>> > This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan"
food
> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> humane slaughter which they object.

You>>>>>>Killed, of course, by meat eaters. When the vegan buys the
ingredients
for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
products, continues to kill.
end quoted text....

You're an idiot, pansy-boy....

>
>> Besides, if you really understood the term, you'd realize that it is
>> you that has made assumptions of farmers, without actually having any
>> info,
>> must less the minimun needed, fool. Have you questioned however many
>> farmers there are? Remember, not all farmers raise animals, yet they
>> still
>> kill them.
>>
>> Keep up the good work in proving your ignorance, pansy-boy.
>
> You must raise livestock. Your propensity for abuse and violence is
> familiar to those of us reading. And if not, you might find some
> 'release' in those acts. I imagine eating meat is less satisfactory than
> actually being hands on with killing.
=======================
Tell us all about your bloody hands, mr freud...


>
> But let's go another round of blaming the vegan for the actions of
> others. It is consistent with our culture of passing the buck -- no one
> is responsible for anything, everyone is responsible for everything.
==============================
ROTFLMAO You really are a hoot! Thanks for stateing exactly what I have
been saying. That vegans, and you now, continue to pass the buck for the
actions they(you) take, knowing full well that the choices they/you make
cause death and suffering to animals. It is vegans and you that are trying
to deny their responsibility. Thanks for proving your stupidity yet
again,pansy-boy...

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "rick etter" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article et>,
>> > "rick etter" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ron" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > In article >,
>> >> > usual suspect > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan"
>> >> >> food
>> >> >> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
>> >> >> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> humane slaughter which they object.
>> >> >
>> >> > Killed, of course, by meat eaters.
>> >> =================
>> >> You have proof of this bit of delusional insight, fool? Try to back
>> >> it
>> >> up.
>> >
>> > What is the difficulty? People who raise and kill pigs eat pork
>> > products. People who raise and kill cows eat beef products. People who
>> > raise and kill seafood eat fish products. What is the difficulty here,
>> > usual?
>> ================================
>> Don't know who you're talking to even anymore, eh fool? Try reading for
>> comprehension, for a chnage. The comment was about those people that
>> produce food for vegans. You remember them, don't you? They're the
>> loons
>> we've been talking about for weeks now. Now, you like to spew about
>> those
>> that produce beef, pork, and seafood. Seems to me that none of those are
>> vegan foods, are they?
>
> Same group. Who does produce food for vegans.
======================
Not the same ones that rasie meat, fool.


Who are the rice growers
> of the world? Meat eater, or vegan?
=====================
Have you checked? Prove that a fair number of rice growers world-wide are
not vegan.

Who are the people who use the
> products and chemicals that you so kindly point out are responsible
> (oops, there's that word) for the collateral death of animals.
==========================
Have you checked? Prove that a fair number of organic growers are not
vegan.


Who is
> that is killing the rodents, amphibians and such -- the meat eater or
> the vegan. Farmers and growers are the killers.
===================
Exactly. But that doesn't mean that all of them are meat-eaters, now does
it, fool?


Some of us tolerate
> their violence in the world.
=======================
And are culpable for it. Thanks for pointing that out, pansy-boy....



>
>> Your request for proof suggests that the typical grower and
>> > killer of animals would be vegan and that's just being silly on your
>> > part.
>> =======================
>> Why fool? Are you really this clueless? Oh wait, you've already proven
>> that, haven't you. Try checking out any number of growers that claim to
>> be
>> 'organic'. I'd bet more than a few would be vegan, yet their farming
>> will
>> still cause animals to die.
>
> AH, a few might be vegan. Shall we do a comparison of farms operated by
> vegans and meat eaters and killers. it's always easy and intellectually
> dishonest to generalize to avoid reality.
==============================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!! It was you that generalized all growers, you
ignorant fool! Man, what a maroon... Besides, if you could read for
comprhension, you'd see that this discussion was about 'vegan' food! Not
meats. Of course, we know that your comprehension is sorely lacking.


>
>> Occam's Razor: what is more likely that those raise and kill
>> > animals are vegan or meat eater?
>> ============================
>> And again, we aren't talking here about meat, fool. Those are hardly
>> vegan
>> foods.
>
> Do pay attention. Dutch specifically spoke to raising livestock.
=====================
Not at the top of this thread were I responded fool. Your response was to
Usual, and the discussion was not about livestock. Need a refresher, fool?
try reading for comprehension.
quoted text....
Usual>>> > This ignores the fact that animals die in the course of "vegan"
food
> production, too. Those deaths -- through poisoning, mutilation,
> drowning, predation, etc. -- are significantly more "cruel" than the
> humane slaughter which they object.

You>>>>>>Killed, of course, by meat eaters. When the vegan buys the
ingredients
for the day's meal, the killing is usually done by the meat eater who
rather than finding 'ethical' means of growing or harvesting such
products, continues to kill.
end quoted text....

You're an idiot, pansy-boy....

>
>> Besides, if you really understood the term, you'd realize that it is
>> you that has made assumptions of farmers, without actually having any
>> info,
>> must less the minimun needed, fool. Have you questioned however many
>> farmers there are? Remember, not all farmers raise animals, yet they
>> still
>> kill them.
>>
>> Keep up the good work in proving your ignorance, pansy-boy.
>
> You must raise livestock. Your propensity for abuse and violence is
> familiar to those of us reading. And if not, you might find some
> 'release' in those acts. I imagine eating meat is less satisfactory than
> actually being hands on with killing.
=======================
Tell us all about your bloody hands, mr freud...


>
> But let's go another round of blaming the vegan for the actions of
> others. It is consistent with our culture of passing the buck -- no one
> is responsible for anything, everyone is responsible for everything.
==============================
ROTFLMAO You really are a hoot! Thanks for stateing exactly what I have
been saying. That vegans, and you now, continue to pass the buck for the
actions they(you) take, knowing full well that the choices they/you make
cause death and suffering to animals. It is vegans and you that are trying
to deny their responsibility. Thanks for proving your stupidity yet
again,pansy-boy...