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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with
animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian ettequite to eat these things? I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
About your healt vegeatarian is more healty as eating meat and vegan is
even more healty. But you are considering vegetarism but dont know if you can eat fish then? Why do you want to be vegetarian, it is just a word i choosed to become vegetarian because i like animals and later became vegan. Mostly i say i am on diet or so most people in holland don't even know what a vegan is and when you say diet people seems to take you more serious (they think your alergic or so). If you don't want to eat meat because of your healt you just can say you rather don't eat meat because you care for your healt or you'r not in to suicide or something like that when some one ask's about it. For the reason to become vegetarian or vegan look at http://goveg.com for some info. On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:52:48 -0700, Judy wrote: > I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with > animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, > fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, > pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are > dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian > ettequite to eat these things? > > I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat > that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
Environmentally and ethically it is a good idea not to eat fish. You may as well eat farmed animals...at least that is sustainable...the fishing industry has screwed up sooo much of world marine eco-systems. When someone offers me meat and I don't want to flag to the world that I'm vegan and don't want to be rude....I say thankyou very much but I've already eaten. Judy wrote: > I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with > animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, > fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, > pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are > dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian > ettequite to eat these things? > > I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat > that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? > -- .....W chacmul <*> Warren Tully > |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"Judy" > wrote in message oups.com... > I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with > animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, > fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, > pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are > dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Don't you mean 'you couldn't care less about red meat'? If you are not doing it for the usual animal welfare reasons then what does it matter whether you eat fish or not? If you are doing it for the animal welfare reasons then you shouldn't eat fish. > Is it against vegetarian etiquette to eat these things? Of course it is. Fish aren't vegetables ! > I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat > that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? What's wrong with saying "I'm a vegetarian!"? |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news  > About your healt vegeatarian is more healty as eating meat and > vegan is > even more healty. =================== Really? care to cite some real studies that prove that? vegan is not healthy, it's a self-loathing religion, not a diet. > > But you are considering vegetarism but dont know if you can eat > fish then? > Why do you want to be vegetarian, it is just a word i choosed > to become > vegetarian because i like animals and later became vegan. > Mostly i say i > am on diet or so most people in holland don't even know what a > vegan is > and when you say diet people seems to take you more serious > (they think > your alergic or so). If you don't want to eat meat because of > your healt > you just can say you rather don't eat meat because you care for > your healt > or you'r not in to suicide or something like that when some one > ask's > about it. > > For the reason to become vegetarian or vegan look at > http://goveg.com for > some info. > > > > On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:52:48 -0700, Judy wrote: >> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned >> with >> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole >> grains, >> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red >> meat, >> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, >> however, are >> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against >> vegetarian >> ettequite to eat these things? >> >> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you >> meat >> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? > |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"Judy" > wrote in
oups.com: > I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with > animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, > fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, > pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are > dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian > ettequite to eat these things? > > I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat > that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? Hi, Vegetarianism is different things to different people around the world. Many consider eating dairy to be vegetarian, which is why you'll find many Hindu dishes with butter and cheese. Some people will only eat organic dairy, Others will eat only locally-produced dairy -- Krishnas. However, if you care even a little bit about animal welfare, you might want to forego dairy. Google "veal production." You don't have to sub soy milk for animal milk. There are other things you might try like rice milk. Since you are concerned with health, I guess you have already given up cholesterol-laden eggs. Fish is definitely not vegetarian, You can get essential fatty acids from plant sources, if that is what you are concerned with. When people offer me meat, I just say, "No, thanks, but I appreciate your hospitality. Do you have any vegetables?" For people actively hostile to vegetarianism, I give them another thanks and move on. |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"Kevan" > wrote in message ... > "Judy" > wrote in > oups.com: > >> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned >> with >> animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole >> grains, >> fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red >> meat, >> pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, >> however, are >> dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against >> vegetarian >> ettequite to eat these things? >> >> I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you >> meat >> that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? > > Hi, > > Vegetarianism is different things to different people around > the world. > Many consider eating dairy to be vegetarian, which is why > you'll find many > Hindu dishes with butter and cheese. Some people will only eat > organic > dairy, Others will eat only locally-produced dairy -- Krishnas. > However, if > you care even a little bit about animal welfare, you might want > to forego > dairy. Google "veal production." ============================= If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all, eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and inhumanely than beef production or dairy. > > You don't have to sub soy milk for animal milk. There are other > things you > might try like rice milk. Since you are concerned with health, > I guess you > have already given up cholesterol-laden eggs. Fish is > definitely not > vegetarian, You can get essential fatty acids from plant > sources, if that > is what you are concerned with. > > When people offer me meat, I just say, "No, thanks, but I > appreciate your > hospitality. Do you have any vegetables?" For people actively > hostile to > vegetarianism, I give them another thanks and move on. |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"rick" > wrote in
ink.net: > If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all, > eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and > inhumanely than beef production or dairy. Realizing that a perfect world according to an abstract ideal is neither possible, practical, nor likely what I would actually want, I nevertheless hold to my values, which is possible, practical and desirable for me. Thank you for your input. Moving on .... |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
"Kevan" > wrote in message ... > "rick" > wrote in > ink.net: > >> If you worry at all about animal welfare you won't eat at all, >> eh? Crop production kills animal far more brutally and >> inhumanely than beef production or dairy. > > Realizing that a perfect world according to an abstract ideal > is neither > possible, practical, nor likely what I would actually want, I > nevertheless > hold to my values, which is possible, practical and desirable > for me. Thank > you for your input. ====================== Values that mean, well, nothing... > > Moving on .... > ================= Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals... > > |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > . net>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals... > > Just out of curiosity, do you care about animal suffering? Do > you think > there are areas in the relationships between animals and human > beings > that need improvement? What are they and what could done to > improve them? > ====================== Changing your diet to avoid all meats isn't anything that will really do anything to help. Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, just as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to quit driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about animals dying in power generation and distribution, and communications? Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as much as you care, huh? > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible and
try not to judge other people for what they do. I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and animals aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most people only think about their self. I try to thread everybody the same but some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just only thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change the world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair trade products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be more easy to life envirnoment friendly. Vegans do at least anything it is easy to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as possible with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english word) and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: > Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or > poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, just > as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough > about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to quit > driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about > animals dying in power generation and distribution, and communications? > Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or > living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as much > as you care, huh? > |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article >, > "rick" > wrote: > >> "Kevan Smith" > wrote in message >> ... >> > In article >> > . net>, >> > "rick" > wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks for proving your lack of concern for animals... >> > >> > Just out of curiosity, do you care about animal suffering? >> > Do >> > you think >> > there are areas in the relationships between animals and >> > human >> > beings >> > that need improvement? What are they and what could done to >> > improve them? >> > ====================== >> Changing your diet to avoid all meats isn't anything that will >> really do anything to help. >> >> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >> dis-membered >> or poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >> at >> all, just as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. >> Do >> I care enough about animals dying for petro-chemical >> production? >> Not enough to quit driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. >> Do I care enough about animals dying in power generation and >> distribution, and communications? Not enough to stop heating >> my >> house, not enough to stop cooking or living, and not enough to >> give up usenet. All seem to be just as much as you care, huh? > > You dodged the questions. ======================= No, I didn't. As usual, you have problems reading. > > It seems to me you aren't here to discuss anything, but rather > for the > fun you derive from ridicule and name calling. Enjoy your hot > dog. ========================= Nope. I talk truth. Something that veg*ns desperately need... > > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as > possible and > try not to judge other people for what they do. ============================ I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on usenet... > > I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world > and animals > aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea > most > people only think about their self. =================== True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of animals by the billions... I try to thread everybody the same but > some times cant help thinking about most people around me are > just only > thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to > change the > world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy > fair trade > products do at least something and if everybody did this it > would be more > easy to life envirnoment friendly. =========================== You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported from around the world. The only real impact you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the definition of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that live entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No crops can say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more ecologically sound, and more humane to animals than that stuff. Vegans do at least anything it is easy > to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. ======================== But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason for taking an action. > > And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as > possible > with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an > english word) > and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. > > > > On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: > >> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >> dis-membered or >> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >> all, just >> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care >> enough >> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough >> to quit >> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >> about >> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >> communications? >> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >> cooking or >> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just >> as much >> as you care, huh? >> |
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Yo, "Rick"
rick wrote:
> "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news
> >>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>possible and >>try not to judge other people for what they do. > > ============================ > I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on > usenet... > > > >>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world >>and animals >>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>most >>people only think about their self. > > =================== > True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your > selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of > animals by the billions... > > > I try to thread everybody the same but > >>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are >>just only >>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>change the >>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>fair trade >>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>would be more >>easy to life envirnoment friendly. > > =========================== > You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. > Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's > all imported from around the world. The only real impact you > could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. > Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and > spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped using > large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the definition > of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that > live entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No > crops can say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp > processed crap made to look/taste like meat. There are real > meats far more ecologically sound, and more humane to animals > than that stuff. > > > Vegans do at least anything it is easy > >>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. > > ======================== > But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more > habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was > good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason for > taking an action. > > > >>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as >>possible >>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>english word) >>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >> >> >> >>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >> >> >>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>dis-membered or >>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >>>all, just >>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care >>>enough >>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough >>>to quit >>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >>>about >>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>communications? >>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>cooking or >>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just >>>as much >>>as you care, huh? >>> > > > Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of "vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a "vegan" to satisfy this definition? You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I wonder... ...if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did it, then would you be happy?  (or do you really even care?) |
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Yo, "Rick"
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:
> "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news >> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible and >> try not to judge other people for what they do. > ============================ > I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on usenet... Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, most vegans try to live as envirnomental friendly as possible but its not like you have to life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect people who life like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and >> animals >> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most people >> only think about their self. > =================== > True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your > selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of > animals by the billions... I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before billions of animals are dying and suffering for it. > I try to thread everybody the same but >> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just only >> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change the >> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair trade >> products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be >> more >> easy to life envirnoment friendly. > =========================== > You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. Especially when > you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported from > around the world. But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. > The only real impact you > could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. Read any > site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from around > the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of > petro-chemicals. There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food which is from the country they life in. > Crop farming is the definition > of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that live > entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No crops can > say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to > look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more ecologically sound, > and more humane to animals than that stuff. Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while you are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes where no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from animals who life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat things like grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. I heard for one kilo of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. And do you want to say you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables are bad for the environment? > Vegans do at least anything it is easy >> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. > ======================== > But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more > habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was good? I'd > say that results would be a far better reason for taking an action. > > > >> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as possible >> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english >> word) >> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >> >> >> >> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >> >>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or >>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, just >>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough >>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to quit >>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about >>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>> communications? >>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or >>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as much >>> as you care, huh? >>> |
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Posted to alt.food.vegan
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Yo, "Rick"
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote: > > >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news >>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>> possible and >>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >> ============================ >> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >> usenet... > > Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, ============================= That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them? most vegans try > to live as envirnomental friendly as possible ===================== They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at finding what they really do. but its not like you have to > life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect > people who life > like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. > > >>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world >>> and >>> animals >>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>> most people >>> only think about their self. >> =================== >> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >> your >> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering >> of >> animals by the billions... > > I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before > billions > of animals are dying and suffering for it. ====================== Really? Not necessarily. Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total of over 13000. http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat' and think that that automatically produces great results. > >> I try to thread everybody the same but >>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are >>> just only >>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>> change the >>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>> fair trade >>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>> would be >>> more >>> easy to life envirnoment friendly. >> =========================== >> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >> Especially when >> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported >> from >> around the world. > > But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. ========================= Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic foods that are totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes down to is that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come before any thought of saving animals. > >> The only real impact you >> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >> that. Read any >> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from >> around >> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of >> petro-chemicals. > > There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food > which is > from the country they life in. ==================== Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their recipie sites... > >> Crop farming is the definition >> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats >> that live >> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No >> crops can >> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap >> made to >> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >> ecologically sound, >> and more humane to animals than that stuff. > > Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while > you > are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes > where > no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from > animals who > life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat > things like > grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. ================================ ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised without confimement. I heard for one kilo > of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. ============================== Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from a pasture or range, let us know. And do you want to say > you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables > are bad for > the environment? ======================= No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in all the imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything to reduce your bloody footprints... It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and communications. http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html http://www.towerkill.com/index.html http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > >> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >> ======================== >> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >> more >> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was >> good? I'd >> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an >> action. >> >> >> >>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>> as possible >>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>> english >>> word) >>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>> dis-membered or >>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >>>> all, just >>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>> care enough >>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>> enough to quit >>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >>>> about >>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>> communications? >>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>> cooking or >>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>> just as much >>>> as you care, huh? >>>> |
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Yo, "Rick"
"nyx" > wrote in message ... > rick wrote: >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news
>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>possible and >>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >> >> ============================ >> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >> usenet... >> >> >> >>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world >>>and animals >>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>most >>>people only think about their self. >> >> =================== >> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >> your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >> suffering of animals by the billions... >> >> >> I try to thread everybody the same but >> >>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are >>>just only >>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>change the >>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>fair trade >>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>would be more >>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >> >> =========================== >> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >> Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. >> It's all imported from around the world. The only real impact >> you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >> that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods >> and spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped >> using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the >> definition of destruction of a natural environment. You can >> eat meats that live entirely in natural environments with no >> damage at all. No crops can say the same, Especially all the >> tofu and tvp processed crap made to look/taste like meat. >> There are real meats far more ecologically sound, and more >> humane to animals than that stuff. >> >> >> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >> >>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >> >> ======================== >> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >> more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' >> was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason >> for taking an action. >> >> >> >>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as >>>possible >>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>english word) >>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>dis-membered or >>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >>>>all, just >>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care >>>>enough >>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough >>>>to quit >>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >>>>about >>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>communications? >>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>cooking or >>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>just as much >>>>as you care, huh? >>>> >> >> >> > Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of > "vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a > "vegan" to satisfy this definition? ==================== Do you know the definition? "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..." Donald Watson, 1944 he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'. > > You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I > wonder... > > ..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did > it, then would you be happy? ========================= There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for entertainment basically. You have no survival need to be here, you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal lives. > > (or do you really even care?) ======================= No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just responding to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet... > > |
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Yo, "Rick"
rick wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message > ... > >>rick wrote: >> >>>"L3dje" >>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mus t.sandertje.be.added> >>>wrote in message >>>news
>>>>>> >>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>possible and >>>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >>> >>>============================ >>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>usenet... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world >>>>and animals >>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>most >>>>people only think about their self. >>> >>>=================== >>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>suffering of animals by the billions... >>> >>> >>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>> >>> >>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are >>>>just only >>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>change the >>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>fair trade >>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>would be more >>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>> >>>=========================== >>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. >>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real impact >>>you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods >>>and spices from around the world. All of it has to be shipped >>>using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop farming is the >>>definition of destruction of a natural environment. You can >>>eat meats that live entirely in natural environments with no >>>damage at all. No crops can say the same, Especially all the >>>tofu and tvp processed crap made to look/taste like meat. >>>There are real meats far more ecologically sound, and more >>>humane to animals than that stuff. >>> >>> >>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>> >>> >>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>> >>>======================== >>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' >>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason >>>for taking an action. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as >>>>possible >>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>english word) >>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>dis-membered or >>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >>>>>all, just >>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care >>>>>enough >>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough >>>>>to quit >>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >>>>>about >>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>communications? >>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>cooking or >>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>just as much >>>>>as you care, huh? >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of >>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a >>"vegan" to satisfy this definition? > > ==================== > Do you know the definition? Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan. > > "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of > exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes > a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the > products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, > fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and > encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived > wholly or in part from animals..." > Donald Watson, 1944 > > he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is > doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation of, > and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'. > > > >>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I >>wonder... >> >>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they did >>it, then would you be happy? > > ========================= > There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just > aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for > entertainment basically. Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for being here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment. But since I am not a vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use the usenet as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know... You have no survival need to be here, > you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal lives. Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that reason. > > > > >>(or do you really even care?) > > ======================= > No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just responding > to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet... Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't call me a hypocryt about THAT subject. So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious.... ....is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern conveniences" would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan survive that way? I am going to admit right now, I don't know all those answers, so maybe you can enlighten me... Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan. I don't eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related to health. My choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat meat. I don't condone a vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a meat eating one either. I also don't pass judgement's against either choice, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater. I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow managed to get sidetracked.... > > > >> > > |
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Yo, "Rick"
rick wrote:
> "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news
> >>On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote: >> >> >> >>>"L3dje" >>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mus t.sandertje.be.added> >>>wrote in message >>>news
>>>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>possible and >>>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >>> >>>============================ >>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>usenet... >> >>Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, > > ============================= > That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing > them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and > eating them? > > > most vegans try > >>to live as envirnomental friendly as possible > > ===================== > They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at > finding what they really do. > > > but its not like you have to > >>life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect >>people who life >>like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >> >> >> >>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world >>>>and >>>>animals >>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>most people >>>>only think about their self. >>> >>>=================== >>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>your >>>selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering >>>of >>>animals by the billions... >> >>I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before >>billions >>of animals are dying and suffering for it. > > ====================== > Really? Not necessarily. > Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total > of over 13000. > > http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm What if..... .....a person has a solar powered or wind powered house and obtains ALL, that means 100% of his/her electricity from these sources. Are there any animals harmed then? Granted, I know this is not the norm, but I do know of at least 5 people who live this way... > > This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet > vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, > 'eat no meat' and think that that automatically produces great > results. > > > >>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>> >>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me are >>>>just only >>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>change the >>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>fair trade >>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>would be >>>>more >>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>> >>>=========================== >>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>Especially when >>>you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported >>>from >>>around the world. >> >>But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. > > ========================= > Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals > really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic > foods that are totally unnecessary for you survival. What it > really comes down to is that your selfishness, convenience and > entertainment come before any thought of saving animals. > > > >>>The only real impact you >>>could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>that. Read any >>>site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from >>>around >>>the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of >>>petro-chemicals. >> >>There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food >>which is >>from the country they life in. > > ==================== > Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their > recipie sites... > > > > >>>Crop farming is the definition >>>of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats >>>that live >>>entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No >>>crops can >>>say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap >>>made to >>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>ecologically sound, >>>and more humane to animals than that stuff. >> >>Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while >>you >>are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes >>where >>no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from >>animals who >>life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat >>things like >>grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. > > ================================ > ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at > least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at > a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources for meats > raised without confimement. > > > I heard for one kilo > >>of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. > > ============================== > Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed > beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, > healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct > from a pasture or range, let us know. > > > And do you want to say > >>you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables >>are bad for >>the environment? > > ======================= > No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of > veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of > calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially > when you factor in all the imported foods you eat. > being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything to > reduce your bloody footprints... > > > > > It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. > > > http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html > http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html > http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html > http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm > http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf > http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 > http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm > http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html > http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html > http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html > > > Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, > here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. > http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html > http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ > > > To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, > here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there > can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. > http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html > http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf > http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html > http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html > http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf > http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 > http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm > > > To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and > maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple > dealing with power and communications. > http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html > http://www.towerkill.com/index.html > http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > > > >> >>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>> >>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>> >>>======================== >>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>more >>>habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was >>>good? I'd >>>say that results would be a far better reason for taking an >>>action. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>as possible >>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>english >>>>word) >>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>dis-membered or >>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at >>>>>all, just >>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>care enough >>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>enough to quit >>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough >>>>>about >>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>communications? >>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>cooking or >>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>just as much >>>>>as you care, huh? >>>>> > > > |
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I'm considering being a vegetarian...
Judy wrote:
> I'm considering being a vegetarian. I'm not entirely conserned with > animals as much as I am with the health benifits. I love whole grains, > fruit, and (of course) veggies and could care less about red meat, > pork, and chicken. A few things I cannot live without, however, are > dairy products (I'm not fond of soy) and fish? Is it against vegetarian > ettequite to eat these things? > > I also would like to know what you say when someone offers you meat > that is less unflattering than, "I'm a vegetarian!"? > Hi Judy, It would seem to me that you have not received many helpful answers to your questions(based on the posts to this question). There have been some and for those, thank-you! It is OK to choose vegetarianism for health reasons. It is great that you already love whole grains, fruits and vege's. Dairy products are definitely one of the hardest items to get away from when you make the choice to be a vegetarian. The term vegetarian is a label. Don't let the label keep you from doing what YOU want to do for yourself! You can still consume eggs and dairy and consider yourself a vegetarian. I have found, that unless the label really means something to you, it isn't really what matters. If you are not fond of soy, then by all means, don't feel the need to consume it! I feel at first, if it is you ultimate goal to eliminate milk products, you can start by replacing cow's/goat's/other animal milk with either rice milk (very watery, good on cereal and a good replacement for skim milk) or almond milk. Almond milk is FANTASTIC in coffee! There are also many other "milks" out there, like Hazelnut and Oat. They come in plain, vanilla, chocolate and carob flavors. I think even non vegetarians should try them cause they all taste great! As for fish, maybe you could start by just cutting down your consumption. And make sure you always purchase non-farm raised because of the antibiotics and other "unpleasentries" surrounding them. Start with once a week, then twice per month, etc. And FYI, there is a name for those who consume no meat, poultry, pork, but do consume fish, dairy, eggs, and that is Pescan. As for when someone offers you meat, a simple "no thank-you" usually works just fine. If they want to know why, just say you don't feel like it today, or "no I'm good with what I have now". Then change the subject. If you want to elaborate, it's OK, but don't feel like you have to. It's your body, your health, and you have the right to put into it what you want. I hope this helps. I have many references for cookbooks etc. that if you need, feel free to ask. I'm sure you can find most of what you need on the net. Good luck! And, beware of all the nasty trolls here, they just want to start a lot of trouble! |
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Yo, "Rick"
"nyx" > wrote in message . .. > rick wrote: >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news
>>>>>On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>"L3dje" >>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mu st.sandertje.be.added> >>>>wrote in message >>>>news
>>>>>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>>possible and >>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>> >>>>============================ >>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>usenet... >>> >>>Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >> >> ============================= >> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing >> them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and >> eating them? >> >> >> most vegans try >> >>>to live as envirnomental friendly as possible >> >> ===================== >> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts >> at finding what they really do. >> >> >> but its not like you have to >> >>>life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect >>>people who life >>>like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >>> >>> >>> >>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>>world and >>>>>animals >>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>>most people >>>>>only think about their self. >>>> >>>>=================== >>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>>your >>>>selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>>suffering of >>>>animals by the billions... >>> >>>I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time >>>before billions >>>of animals are dying and suffering for it. >> >> ====================== >> Really? Not necessarily. >> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a >> total of over 13000. >> >> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > What if..... > > ....a person has a solar powered or wind powered house and > obtains ALL, that means 100% of his/her electricity from these > sources. ====================== Great, except being on usenet still drives the demand for power for the routers and communications to get your entertainment around the world. Are there > any animals harmed then? Granted, I know this is not the norm, > but I do know of at least 5 people who live this way... >> >> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet >> vegans. They follow only a simple rule for their simple >> minds, 'eat no meat' and think that that automatically >> produces great results. >> >> >> >>>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>> >>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>>are just only >>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>>change the >>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>>fair trade >>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>>would be >>>>>more >>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>> >>>>=========================== >>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>>Especially when >>>>you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all >>>>imported from >>>>around the world. >>> >>>But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. >> >> ========================= >> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if >> animals really mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the >> imported exotic foods that are totally unnecessary for you >> survival. What it really comes down to is that your >> selfishness, convenience and entertainment come before any >> thought of saving animals. >> >> >> >>>>The only real impact you >>>>could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>>that. Read any >>>>site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices >>>>from around >>>>the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts >>>>of >>>>petro-chemicals. >>> >>>There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible >>>food which is >>>from the country they life in. >> >> ==================== >> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their >> recipie sites... >> >> >> >> >>>>Crop farming is the definition >>>>of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats >>>>that live >>>>entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No >>>>crops can >>>>say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap >>>>made to >>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>>ecologically sound, >>>>and more humane to animals than that stuff. >>> >>>Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a >>>while you >>>are used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes >>>where >>>no fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from >>>animals who >>>life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat >>>things like >>>grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. >> >> ================================ >> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, >> at least in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are >> spent at a feedlot. Besides, there are any number of sources >> for meats raised without confimement. >> >> >> I heard for one kilo >> >>>of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. >> >> ============================== >> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed >> beef cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly >> good, healthy, nutrisious meat. When you can start eating >> grass direct from a pasture or range, let us know. >> >> >> And do you want to say >> >>>you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables >>>are bad for >>>the environment? >> >> ======================= >> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of >> veggies with the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of >> calories come at a much greater price to animals. Especially >> when you factor in all the imported foods you eat. >> being vegan does not automatically mean you've done anything >> to reduce your bloody footprints... >> >> >> >> >> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. >> >> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm >> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf >> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 >> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm >> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html >> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html >> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html >> >> >> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, >> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ >> >> >> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, >> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that >> there >> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. >> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html >> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf >> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html >> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf >> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 >> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm >> >> >> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and >> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple >> dealing with power and communications. >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >> >> >> >> >>> >>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>> >>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>> >>>>======================== >>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>>more >>>>habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was >>>>good? I'd >>>>say that results would be a far better reason for taking an >>>>action. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>>as possible >>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>>english >>>>>word) >>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>>dis-membered or >>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >>>>>>at all, just >>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>>care enough >>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>>enough to quit >>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>>enough about >>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>>communications? >>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>>cooking or >>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>>just as much >>>>>>as you care, huh? >>>>>> >> >> |
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Yo, "Rick"
"nyx" > wrote in message . .. > rick wrote: >> "nyx" > wrote in message >> ... >> >>>rick wrote: >>> >>>>"L3dje" >>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@mu st.sandertje.be.added> >>>>wrote in message >>>>news
>>>>>>>> >>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>>possible and >>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>> >>>>============================ >>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>usenet... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>>world and animals >>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>>most >>>>>people only think about their self. >>>> >>>>=================== >>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>>suffering of animals by the billions... >>>> >>>> >>>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>> >>>> >>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>>are just only >>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>>change the >>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>>fair trade >>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>>would be more >>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>> >>>>=========================== >>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. >>>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real >>>>impact you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans >>>>don't do that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of >>>>exotic foods and spices from around the world. All of it has >>>>to be shipped using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop >>>>farming is the definition of destruction of a natural >>>>environment. You can eat meats that live entirely in natural >>>>environments with no damage at all. No crops can say the >>>>same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to >>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>>ecologically sound, and more humane to animals than that >>>>stuff. >>>> >>>> >>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>> >>>> >>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>> >>>>======================== >>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' >>>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason >>>>for taking an action. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>>as possible >>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>>english word) >>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>>dis-membered or >>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >>>>>>at all, just >>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>>care enough >>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>>enough to quit >>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>>enough about >>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>>communications? >>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>>cooking or >>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>>just as much >>>>>>as you care, huh? >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of >>>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a >>>"vegan" to satisfy this definition? >> >> ==================== >> Do you know the definition? > > Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan. >> >> "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of >> exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and >> includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of >> living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion >> of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its >> derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all >> commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..." >> Donald Watson, 1944 >> >> he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is >> doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation >> of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'. >> >> >> >>>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I >>>wonder... >>> >>>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they >>>did it, then would you be happy? >> >> ========================= >> There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just >> aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for >> entertainment basically. > > Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for > being here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment. ============================ Ultimately, yes you are. there is NO survival need to be on usenet. But since I am not a > vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use > the usenet as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know... ========================== Knowledge can be gained in more animal friendly ways. Again, that search for knowledge is basically entertainment. > You have no survival need to be here, >> you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal >> lives. > > Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that > reason. >> >> >> >> >>>(or do you really even care?) >> >> ======================= >> No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just >> responding to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet... > > Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't > call me a hypocryt about THAT subject. > > So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe > describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be > vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious.... =========================== LOL That's not for me to determine. I don't care how anybody wants to live. > > ...is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern > conveniences" would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan > survive that way? I am going to admit right now, I don't know > all those answers, so maybe you can enlighten me... =========================== There are people that live mostly off-the-grid. But, they aren't necessesarily vegan. It's far easier to raise some meat animals or eat game as part of your diet than to grow all your own food. As for usenet vegans, no, I don't think they could even come close because they are mostly about convenience. Again, they follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' They haven't given any thought about what they choices mean, they just think it sounds good. > > Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan. > I don't eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related > to health. My choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat > meat. I don't condone a vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a > meat eating one either. I also don't pass judgement's against > either choice, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater. > > I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow > managed to get sidetracked.... ==================== There are better places I'm sure to get recipies... :-) >> >> >> >>> >> |
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Yo, "Rick"
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:
> "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news >> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote: >> >> >>> "L3dje" >>> andertje.be.added> >>> wrote in message >>> news
>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as possible>>>> and >>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>> ============================ >>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on usenet... >> >> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, > ============================= > That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them and > leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them? Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals for me? When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less animals. > most vegans try >> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible > ===================== > They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts at finding > what they really do. Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i know envirnomental friendly. > but its not like you have to >> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect people who >> life >> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >> >> >>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the world and >>>> animals >>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea most >>>> people >>>> only think about their self. >>> =================== >>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for your >>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and suffering of >>> animals by the billions... >> >> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time before >> billions >> of animals are dying and suffering for it. > ====================== > Really? Not necessarily. > Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a total of > over 13000. > > http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet vegans. > They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat' and > think that that automatically produces great results. Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In holland 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know what a vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in the UK and USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and the people who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But veganism as i know is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants and includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can allow it) (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong companies, using public transport, looking from which country your food comes and so on. Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about what they do and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You have to think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under veganism veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that includes you. I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to vegetables who grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and wait till the right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75% of what i buy is. And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use power, i mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about things which uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave in green power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean time, but nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how you can have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible but isn't doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it. >>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me are just >>>> only >>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to change >>>> the >>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy fair >>>> trade >>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it would be >>>> more >>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>> =========================== >>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. Especially >>> when >>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all imported from >>> around the world. >> >> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. > ========================= > Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if animals really > mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic foods that are > totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes down to is > that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come before any > thought of saving animals. Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and envirnoment friendly. They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go along longer. >>> The only real impact you >>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do that. Read >>> any >>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices from around >>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts of >>> petro-chemicals. >> >> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible food which >> is >> from the country they life in. > ==================== > Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their recipie > sites... I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't know the names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it. >>> Crop farming is the definition >>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats that live >>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No crops can >>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to >>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more ecologically >>> sound, >>> and more humane to animals than that stuff. >> >> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a while you are >> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes where no >> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from animals who >> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat things like >> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. > ================================ > ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, at least > in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a feedlot. > Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised without > confimement. > > > I heard for one kilo >> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. > ============================== > Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed beef > cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, healthy, > nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from a pasture > or range, let us know. Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives stables and get feed. There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued for a couple of times for things they said (and won the court), i think their information is trustable. You can try to read there site with the links here under, i don't know how readable the translation is. I assume this works http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html Or else you can paste this link http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html In http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > And do you want to say >> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables are bad >> for >> the environment? > ======================= > No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of veggies with > the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories come at a > much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in all the > imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically mean you've > done anything to reduce your bloody footprints... > > > > > It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. > > > http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html > http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html > http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm > http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf > http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 > http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm > http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html > http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html > http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most aren't about organicfood. > Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, here's a > couple to cover some problems with cotton. > http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html > http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp. > To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, here's > some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can be 100s to > 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. > http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html > http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf > http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html > http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html > http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf > http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 > http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm > > > To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and maintaining a web > page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and communications. > http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html > http://www.towerkill.com/index.html > http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > > > > >>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>> ======================== >>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy more >>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was good? I'd >>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an action. >>> >>> >>> >>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most as >>>> possible >>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an english >>>> word) >>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>> >>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, dis-membered or >>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not at all, >>>>> just >>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I care enough >>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not enough to >>>>> quit >>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care enough about >>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>> communications? >>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop cooking or >>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be just as >>>>> much >>>>> as you care, huh? >>>>> |
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Yo, "Rick"
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote: > > >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news >>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>>> "L3dje" >>>> andertje.be.added> >>>> wrote in message >>>> news
>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>> possible >>>>> and >>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>> ============================ >>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>> usenet... >>> >>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >> ============================= >> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing >> them and >> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating >> them? > > Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the > animals for me? ================================== Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its consequences, are you? Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing stages. Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your foods. > When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less > animals. ============================== So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed. They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows. > >> most vegans try >>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible >> ===================== >> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts >> at finding >> what they really do. > > Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i > know > envirnomental friendly. ============================ Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more and faster connections and communications. Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop production. > >> but its not like you have to >>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect >>> people who >>> life >>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >>> >>> >>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>> world and >>>>> animals >>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>> most >>>>> people >>>>> only think about their self. >>>> =================== >>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>> your >>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>> suffering of >>>> animals by the billions... >>> >>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time >>> before >>> billions >>> of animals are dying and suffering for it. >> ====================== >> Really? Not necessarily. >> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a >> total of >> over 13000. >> >> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >> >> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet >> vegans. >> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no >> meat' and >> think that that automatically produces great results. > > Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In > holland > 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know > what a > vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in > the UK and > USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and > the people > who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But > veganism as i know > is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants > and > includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can > allow it) > (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong > companies, using > public transport, looking from which country your food comes > and so on. > Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about > what they do > and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You > have to > think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under > veganism > veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that > includes > you. ======================= If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds of it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real impact is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as you don't eat animals, none die for your food. > I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to > vegetables who > grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and > wait till the > right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75% > of what i > buy is. ===================== Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry. > > And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use > power, i > mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about > things which > uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave > in green > power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean > time, but > nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how > you can > have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible > but isn't > doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it. ========================= But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by just not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to know because you still think that animnal don't die just because you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop production, from animals that are raised naturally and without confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the environment and habitats is far less than crop production. Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat destruction. > >>>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>> are just >>>>> only >>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>> change >>>>> the >>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>> fair >>>>> trade >>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>> would be >>>>> more >>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>> =========================== >>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>> Especially >>>> when >>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all >>>> imported from >>>> around the world. >>> >>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. >> ========================= >> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if >> animals really >> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic >> foods that are >> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes >> down to is >> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come >> before any >> thought of saving animals. > > Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and > envirnoment friendly. > They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go > along longer. =================================== No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled as fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and many are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means nothing. > >>>> The only real impact you >>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>> that. Read >>>> any >>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices >>>> from around >>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts >>>> of >>>> petro-chemicals. >>> >>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible >>> food which >>> is >>> from the country they life in. >> ==================== >> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their >> recipie >> sites... > > I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't > know the > names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it. > >>>> Crop farming is the definition >>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats >>>> that live >>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No >>>> crops can >>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed >>>> crap made to >>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>> ecologically >>>> sound, >>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff. >>> >>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a >>> while you are >>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes >>> where no >>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from >>> animals who >>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat >>> things like >>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. >> ================================ >> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, >> at least >> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a >> feedlot. >> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised >> without >> confimement. >> >> >> I heard for one kilo >>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. >> ============================== >> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed >> beef >> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, >> healthy, >> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from >> a pasture >> or range, let us know. > > Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives > stables and get > feed. ============================= Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe. > There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued > for a couple > of times for things they said (and won the court), i think > their > information is trustable. You can try to read there site with > the links > here under, i don't know how readable the translation is. > > I assume this works > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html > Or else you can paste this link > http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html > In http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > >> And do you want to say >>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables >>> are bad >>> for >>> the environment? >> ======================= >> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of >> veggies with >> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories >> come at a >> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in >> all the >> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically >> mean you've >> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints... >> >> >> >> >> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. >> >> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm >> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf >> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 >> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm >> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html >> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html >> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html > > I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most > aren't about > organicfood. ============================== Organic food production uses the same techniques. The difference is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice. each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death and suffering. http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested, removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now left without food and cover to die of starvation and predation. The surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers as they will already be at their natural carrying capacity. > >> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, >> here's a >> couple to cover some problems with cotton. >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ > > I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp. > ======================== And it is still grown the same way. >> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, >> here's >> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can >> be 100s to >> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. >> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html >> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf >> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html >> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf >> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 >> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm >> >> >> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and >> maintaining a web >> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and >> communications. >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>> ======================== >>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>> more >>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was >>>> good? I'd >>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an >>>> action. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>> as >>>>> possible >>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>> english >>>>> word) >>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>> dis-membered or >>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >>>>>> at all, >>>>>> just >>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>> care enough >>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>> enough to >>>>>> quit >>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>> enough about >>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>> communications? >>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>> cooking or >>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>> just as >>>>>> much >>>>>> as you care, huh? >>>>>> |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article >, > nyx > wrote: > >> So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe >> describe >> for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan >> and NOT be >> a hypocrit. I am curious.... > > Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to. =============================== LOL I'm not giving MY defintion, fool. I'm giving the definition from the original guy who made up the word and religion. Anything else is a watered down version designed to make YOU feel better about doing nothing of substance. "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..." Donald Watson, 1944 Language is > built on consensus, and we already have well-accepted > definitions of > vegan to go by. [ > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ] > Rick's conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the > generally accepted meanings. ========================== ROTFLMAO Only out of step with the self-loathing set that doesn't want to really do anything of consequence but only to feel good about themselves without taking any real action. > > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > t>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just >> aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for >> entertainment basically. You have no survival need to be >> here, >> you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal >> lives. > > This ought to be interesting. How is usenet derived from > animals? > ============================ Willfully and terminally ignorant, eh fool? Nice try at making strawmen.... here's an example of what just 3 power generators can kill every year. Then consider that there are over 13000 more in the US alone... http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote:
> > "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news >> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote: >> >> >>> "L3dje" >>> andertje.be.added> >>> wrote in message >>> news
>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>> >>>> >>>>> "L3dje" >>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>> news
>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>>> possible >>>>>> and >>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>> ============================ >>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>> usenet... >>>> >>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>> ============================= >>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing >>> them and >>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating >>> them? >> >> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the >> animals for me? > ================================== > Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its > consequences, are you? > Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From > plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the > processing stages. Animals are systematically and deliberately > killed for your foods. I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept inside stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know better and they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan is better for the envirnoment. Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php And the site of a chicken farmer. http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. > >> When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less >> animals. > ============================== > So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed. > They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows. > > >> >>> most vegans try >>>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible >>> ===================== >>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real attepmts >>> at finding >>> what they really do. >> >> Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i >> know >> envirnomental friendly. > ============================ > Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you > connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more and > faster connections and communications. > > Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for > clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop > production. > But using clean power is better as not using it. And i understood that hemp is better as cotton, and eco cotton better as non-eco cotton. > >> >>> but its not like you have to >>>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect >>>> people who >>>> life >>>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>>> world and >>>>>> animals >>>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>>> most >>>>>> people >>>>>> only think about their self. >>>>> =================== >>>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>>> your >>>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>>> suffering of >>>>> animals by the billions... >>>> >>>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time >>>> before >>>> billions >>>> of animals are dying and suffering for it. >>> ====================== >>> Really? Not necessarily. >>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a >>> total of >>> over 13000. >>> >>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >>> >>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of usenet >>> vegans. >>> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no >>> meat' and >>> think that that automatically produces great results. >> >> Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. In >> holland >> 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even know >> what a >> vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in >> the UK and >> USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and >> the people >> who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But >> veganism as i know >> is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and plants >> and >> includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you can >> allow it) >> (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong >> companies, using >> public transport, looking from which country your food comes >> and so on. >> Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about >> what they do >> and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. You >> have to >> think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under >> veganism >> veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so that >> includes >> you. > ======================= > If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds of > it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real impact > is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as you > don't eat animals, none die for your food. As is said, i don't think i said there don't die animals because of me. >> I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to >> vegetables who >> grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and >> wait till the >> right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about 75% >> of what i >> buy is. > ===================== > Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large > scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop > farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry. Its not perfect but it is better. >> >> And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use >> power, i >> mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about >> things which >> uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave >> in green >> power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean >> time, but >> nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand how >> you can >> have problems with it, if some body chooses to life responsible >> but isn't >> doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it. > ========================= > But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by just > not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to > know because you still think that animnal don't die just because > you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that > would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop > production, from animals that are raised naturally and without > confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the > environment and habitats is far less than crop production. > Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat > destruction. Like i said above dutch cattle lives in stables. >> >>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>>> are just >>>>>> only >>>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>>> change >>>>>> the >>>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>>> fair >>>>>> trade >>>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>>> would be >>>>>> more >>>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>>> =========================== >>>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>>> Especially >>>>> when >>>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all >>>>> imported from >>>>> around the world. >>>> >>>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. >>> ========================= >>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if >>> animals really >>> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic >>> foods that are >>> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes >>> down to is >>> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come >>> before any >>> thought of saving animals. >> >> Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and >> envirnoment friendly. >> They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go >> along longer. > =================================== > No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled as > fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and many > are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means > nothing. It's not one organisation who cliams to be good but other organisations confirm this, i trust they know what they are doing. >> >>>>> The only real impact you >>>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>>> that. Read >>>>> any >>>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices >>>>> from around >>>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large amounts >>>>> of >>>>> petro-chemicals. >>>> >>>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible >>>> food which >>>> is >>>> from the country they life in. >>> ==================== >>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their >>> recipie >>> sites... >> >> I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i don't >> know the >> names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it. >> >>>>> Crop farming is the definition >>>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat meats >>>>> that live >>>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. No >>>>> crops can >>>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed >>>>> crap made to >>>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>>> ecologically >>>>> sound, >>>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff. >>>> >>>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a >>>> while you are >>>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes >>>> where no >>>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from >>>> animals who >>>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat >>>> things like >>>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. >>> ================================ >>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their lives, >>> at least >>> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at a >>> feedlot. >>> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised >>> without >>> confimement. >>> >>> >>> I heard for one kilo >>>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. >>> ============================== >>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to feed >>> beef >>> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, >>> healthy, >>> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct from >>> a pasture >>> or range, let us know. >> >> Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives >> stables and get >> feed. > ============================= > Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe. To bad it's the truth. > >> There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued >> for a couple >> of times for things they said (and won the court), i think >> their >> information is trustable. You can try to read there site with >> the links >> here under, i don't know how readable the translation is. >> >> I assume this works >> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html >> Or else you can paste this link >> http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html >> In http://babelfish.altavista.com/ >> >>> And do you want to say >>>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because vegetables >>>> are bad >>>> for >>>> the environment? >>> ======================= >>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of >>> veggies with >>> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories >>> come at a >>> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor in >>> all the >>> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically >>> mean you've >>> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie though. >>> >>> >>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm >>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm >>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html >>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm >>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf >>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 >>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm >>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html >>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html >>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html >> >> I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most >> aren't about >> organicfood. > ============================== > Organic food production uses the same techniques. The difference > is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more > deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be > applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice. > each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death > and suffering. > http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf Most organisations are pro organic of course there are organisations who don't. I think for everything i found i have reliable sources, and to be honest i never heard of CGFI (probably because it's not dutch) and never heard this argument against organic, only that it's not more healty as non-organic. I wont say that because i don't know CFGI they are lying or something but rather wait until this problem is more known so i hear from other organisations about is. > Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural > growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and > cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small > animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested, > removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now left > without food and cover to die of starvation and predation. The > surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers as > they will already be at their natural carrying capacity. But i suppose this don't count only for organic. >> >>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, >>> here's a >>> couple to cover some problems with cotton. >>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html >>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ >> >> I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp. >> ======================== > And it is still grown the same way. > > >>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, >>> here's >>> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can >>> be 100s to >>> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. >>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html >>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf >>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html >>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html >>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf >>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 >>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm >>> >>> >>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and >>> maintaining a web >>> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and >>> communications. >>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html >>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>>> ======================== >>>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>>> more >>>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' was >>>>> good? I'd >>>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking an >>>>> action. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>>> as >>>>>> possible >>>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>>> english >>>>>> word) >>>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>>> dis-membered or >>>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >>>>>>> at all, >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>>> care enough >>>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>> quit >>>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>>> enough about >>>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>>> communications? >>>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>>> cooking or >>>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>>> just as >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> as you care, huh? >>>>>>> |
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Err oops
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote: > > >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news >>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>>> "L3dje" >>>> andertje.be.added> >>>> wrote in message >>>> news
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>> news
>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as>>>>>>> possible >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>>> ============================ >>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>>> usenet... >>>>> >>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>>> ============================= >>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them >>>> and >>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them? >>> >>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals for >>> me? >> ================================== >> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its consequences, >> are you? >> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From plowing, >> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing stages. >> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your foods. > > I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the > definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because > its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave > definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept inside > stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows > go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by > farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know better and > they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for > a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan > is better for the envirnoment. > > Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan > propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php > > And the site of a chicken farmer. > http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html > > Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. > Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the people don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant that they still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage. I understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal products. I tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently but i think i confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i thought no animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions. I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing them and leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?". |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > t>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> LOL I'm not giving MY defintion, fool. I'm giving the >> definition from the original guy who made up the word and >> religion. Anything else is a watered down version designed to >> make YOU feel better about doing nothing of substance. >> "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of >> exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and >> includes >> a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on >> the >> products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, >> fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and >> encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived >> wholly or in part from animals..." >> Donald Watson, 1944 > > That's one definition he accepted. ======================= LOL NO, fool, that's the definition of the word he made up. He made-up the word, he get's to define it. > > Here it is in a founding document from the website of the Vegan > Society > that Watson founded: > > (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/abo...morandum.php): > > "In this Memorandum the word "veganism" denotes a philosophy > and way of > living which seeks to exclude as far as is possible and > practical all > forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, > clothing or > any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development > and use of > animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and > the > environment. > > "In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with > all > products derived wholly or partly from animals." > > So, if Watson seems to accept a a variety of aspects of > veganism, why > won't you? ===================== It says just what i wrote above, now doesn't it? The term you like to spew, 'derived from' is applied only to the dietary portion of veganism. veganism is not a diet, it's a lifestyle. Diet is no more, or less than any other part of your life. Exploitation of animals is still causeing their death and suffering, whether or not you eat or wear them. Again, you just like your lazy-mans version because that way you don't really have to do anything. > > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > t>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> > ============================ >> Willfully and terminally ignorant, eh fool? Nice try at >> making >> strawmen.... >> >> >> here's an example of what just 3 power generators can kill >> every >> year. Then consider that there are over 13000 more in the US >> alone... >> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm > > But again, usenet is not derived from animals. ================================== But again, brain-dead fool, usenet exploits animals and kills them for YOUR selfish entertainment. Veganism does not support this exploitation. And a vegan, by > definition, is often one who "uses no products derived from > animals, as > fur or leather." ============================= Now you've drop the real meaning that you even posted in your last reply. Finally figure out what exploitation of animals means, killer? The British Vegan Society definition also includes the > phrase "as far as is possible and practical." I don't think > it's > practical to give up electricity. Do you? ======================= In modern times, no, some electricity is needed for survival. What you don't need is to create demand for ever increasing amounts for nothing more than your entertainment, hypocrite. > > When I ride my bike, I collide with tiny bugs and kill them. > However, > I'm not going to give up riding my bike. It's a better > alternative many > times to driving a car. However, I'm not going to go out of my > way to > kill animals in either vehicle. ======================== Yet you do, just by purchasing the fuel, idiot. > > There are more shades of veganism than you care to admit to, > Rick. You > are overly determined to adhere to the strictest ideal with no > regard > for utilitarianism. ======================== No, there is veganism, and then there are the lazy fools trying to conveince themselves of something that isn't real. > > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > t>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by >> just >> not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to >> know because you still think that animnal don't die just >> because >> you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that >> would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop >> production, from animals that are raised naturally and without >> confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the >> environment and habitats is far less than crop production. >> Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat >> destruction. > > There are many dubious assertions there, but I'll answer the > first > question. > > I believe that a person is doing something better than the > status quo by > not consuming meat. ============================== Then prove it. It should be easy, eh? Even cutting down on meat consumption is a better > thing than maintaining a level like the U.S. per capita meat > consumption > currently. I say that for simple dietary reasons: it reduces or > removes > a significant amount of fat and cholesterol, known causes of > poor health > and heart disease. ======================== Lack of b12 is a major health problem too... > > From the animal exploitation angle, an single person's choice > to not > consume meat likely doesn't have much of an impact on saving > animals. =============================== I disagree. I can get 1000s of meals and 100s of 1000s of calories from the death of one grass-fed cow, or game animals. None of your mono-cultured crop production can even come close. > But, if more people give it up, that will reduce demand, and > the number > of animals grown for slaughter will decrease. ============================== And increase the number of animals that die for your crop production. Is it only meat animals that have any 'value' to you, or are you just that stupid? Further, some people who > refuse meat do so as a refusal of the system that produces it, > and those > people should be accorded the right to refuse participation > whether you > like it or not. Further, it seems more and more entrepreneurs > are > bringing goods and services to market to satisfy the wants and > needs of > vegans and vegetarians. =========================== There are moire people bringing to market meats that don't fit your extreme lys about production methods. > > Speaking just for myself, I grew up farming. When I was a > child, I > slaughtered chickens, hogs and cows and regularly hunted game > on a small > family farm. Now, I reject that just as thoroughly as I reject > factory > farming. =========================== Then you really are as stupid as you sound, aren't you? Anyone of those meats would be far better than all the veggies you buy now at the supermart, killer. But then, animals that don't end up on plates anyway don't seem to matter to you, right killer? I would never want to force my views on you, Rick, but I do > appreciate the chance for a free, civil discussion to persuade > you. ============================== You're right, you can't persude me to kill as many animals unnecessarily as you do. > > -- > fneep |
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Yo, "Rick"
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote: > >> >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news >>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>>> "L3dje" >>>> andertje.be.added> >>>> wrote in message >>>> news
>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>> news
>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> possible >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>>> ============================ >>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here >>>>>> on >>>>>> usenet... >>>>> >>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>>> ============================= >>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does >>>> killing >>>> them and >>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating >>>> them? >>> >>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the >>> animals for me? >> ================================== >> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its >> consequences, are you? >> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From >> plowing, planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the >> processing stages. Animals are systematically and >> deliberately >> killed for your foods. > > I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the > definiton > of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because its > almost > impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave > definitions can > change). Again in holland animals are kept inside stables, > except a big > part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows go outside > sometimes and > of course hobby-cattle. =========================== Seems like you just made alot of exceptions to a claim that they ALL are confined all their lives. No one says you have to eat the confined ones. If you create a demand for the free-range, pastured, grass-fed beef, they will produce it that way. By not participating in the market of meat, you have NO say in production methods. If you want it, somebody will produce it. This is not denyd by farmers they say > animals don't mind because they don't know better and they are > forced > because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian for a kilo > of meat > there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating vegan is > better for > the envirnoment. ============================================= No, it isn't automatically so. The beef I eat is all pastured, grass-fed. No crops are grown, no drugs, no confinement. For that meat I replace 100s of 1000s of crop grown calories with the death of ONE animal. No production of crops on any scale to match will be death free. > > Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan > propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php > > And the site of a chicken farmer. > http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html > > Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. ====================================== But the fact remains that just avoiding meat does nothing to change the conditions you dislike. YOU have to provide an incentive for somebody to produce meat in a manner in which you approve. You've already stated above that these types of meat do exist, now you just have to expand THAT production. When that production expands, the producers that you don't like will see a method of making money in market that is growing. > >> >>> When 5% of the people don't eat meat they raise 5% less >>> animals. >> ============================== >> So what? It might mean then that 10% more animals are killed. >> They just aren't cute moon-eyed cows. >> >> >>> >>>> most vegans try >>>>> to live as envirnomental friendly as possible >>>> ===================== >>>> They like to pretend they are, but have made no real >>>> attepmts >>>> at finding >>>> what they really do. >>> >>> Using green power and hemp instead of cotton is as far as i >>> know >>> envirnomental friendly. >> ============================ >> Only if you keep your power uses to yourself. As soon as you >> connect to the internet, you are part of the demand for more >> and >> faster connections and communications. >> >> Hemp production in any quantity to supplant other products for >> clothing is going to cause the same problems as any other crop >> production. >> > > But using clean power is better as not using it. ======================= Not using it unnecessarily is even better. > > And i understood that hemp is better as cotton, and eco cotton > better as > non-eco cotton. ======================= Again, both are the definition of habitat destruction. What was there before any crop was grown? It sure wasn't row after row of machine intensive, petro-chemical support crops. > >> >>> >>>> but its not like you have to >>>>> life in the woods and build your own vegetables. I respect >>>>> people who >>>>> life >>>>> like that but think veganism is a easy way to start. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>>>> world and >>>>>>> animals >>>>>>> aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the >>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> only think about their self. >>>>>> =================== >>>>>> True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet >>>>>> for >>>>>> your >>>>>> selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>>>> suffering of >>>>>> animals by the billions... >>>>> >>>>> I think i have to use my computer for a pretty long time >>>>> before >>>>> billions >>>>> of animals are dying and suffering for it. >>>> ====================== >>>> Really? Not necessarily. >>>> Here's a report about just 3 generators in the US, out of a >>>> total of >>>> over 13000. >>>> >>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >>>> >>>> This lack of understanding and knowledge is typical of >>>> usenet >>>> vegans. >>>> They follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat >>>> no >>>> meat' and >>>> think that that automatically produces great results. >>> >>> Maybe there is a difference between dutch and UK/USA vegans. >>> In >>> holland >>> 0.5% of the people is vegan and a lot of people don't even >>> know >>> what a >>> vegetarian precisely eat (confuse it with vegan), i heard in >>> the UK and >>> USA its more known. So maybe its here more 'underground' and >>> the people >>> who become vegan are going farder as UK/USA vegans. But >>> veganism as i know >>> is mostly about respect for all life so also humans and >>> plants >>> and >>> includes thinking about; buying organicfood (as far as you >>> can >>> allow it) >>> (or building your own food), not buying stuff from wrong >>> companies, using >>> public transport, looking from which country your food comes >>> and so on. >>> Not verybody is even strict in it but most try to think about >>> what they do >>> and if they think it's worth doing/eating something or not. >>> You >>> have to >>> think about yourself and make sure you don't suffer under >>> veganism >>> veganism is about doing good for everything what life's so >>> that >>> includes >>> you. >> ======================= >> If you do all those things, then great. But, from the sounds >> of >> it, you still haven't even tried to learn what your real >> impact >> is on animals, since you still seem to think that as long as >> you >> don't eat animals, none die for your food. > > As is said, i don't think i said there don't die animals > because of me. =========================== You still talk like you do. Avoiding meat does NOT automatically mean you have a smaller footprint on animal deaths. > >>> I do eat fruit from outside holland but when it comes to >>> vegetables who >>> grow in holland i try to eat the vegetables from holland and >>> wait till the >>> right season. And i don't eat only organic but think about >>> 75% >>> of what i >>> buy is. >> ===================== >> Organic does not mean cruelty-free or pesticide free. Large >> scale organic farming is just as machinized as regular crop >> farms, depending on the same petro-chemical industry. > > Its not perfect but it is better. ========================== Better than what? It produces crops that are NO different. It can cause more animals to die. It is still fields of death for animals. Why is that better than any grass-fed, pastured meat or game? > >>> >>> And using electric power. It would be better if i didn't use >>> power, i >>> mostly dont use standby but turn things of and think about >>> things which >>> uses power if i find it really necessary to use it. I beleave >>> in green >>> power and know it would be better to use no power in the mean >>> time, but >>> nobody is perfect. But even if i didn't i don't understand >>> how >>> you can >>> have problems with it, if some body chooses to life >>> responsible >>> but isn't >>> doing it 100% its still better as doing nothing about it. >> ========================= >> But the question is, are you REALLY doing anything better by >> just >> not eating meat? You haven't studied your own diet enough to >> know because you still think that animnal don't die just >> because >> you don't eat them. There are meats that you could eat, that >> would replace 100s of 1000s of calories you now get from crop >> production, from animals that are raised naturally and without >> confinement, drugs, or crop inputs. Thei footprint on the >> environment and habitats is far less than crop production. >> Afterall, crop production is the definition of habitat >> destruction. > > Like i said above dutch cattle lives in stables. ========================= No, above you made several exceptions to that claim. Work with the exceptions. Expand that market. > >>> >>>>>> I try to thread everybody the same but >>>>>>> some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>>>> are just >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or >>>>>>> buy >>>>>>> fair >>>>>>> trade >>>>>>> products do at least something and if everybody did this >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> would be >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>>>> =========================== >>>>>> You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>>>> Especially >>>>>> when >>>>>> you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. It's all >>>>>> imported from >>>>>> around the world. >>>>> >>>>> But fair trade is better as non-fair trade. >>>> ========================= >>>> Not to animal death and suffering. The point is that if >>>> animals really >>>> mattererd, you wouldn't be buying all the imported exotic >>>> foods that are >>>> totally unnecessary for you survival. What it really comes >>>> down to is >>>> that your selfishness, convenience and entertainment come >>>> before any >>>> thought of saving animals. >>> >>> Maybe i used fair trade wrong but i meant people and >>> envirnoment friendly. >>> They do still have to ship it but it is mostly build to go >>> along longer. >> =================================== >> No, You had it right, but the problem is, most things labeled >> as >> fair-trade are not local, northern hemisphere products, and >> many >> are just schemes to get rubes to buy into an idea that means >> nothing. > > It's not one organisation who cliams to be good but other > organisations > confirm this, i trust they know what they are doing. ============================ Of course you do, the rubes have to believe before they spend their money on a scheme... Do you not understand the concept that global shipping is not environmentally friendly? > >>> >>>>>> The only real impact you >>>>>> could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans don't do >>>>>> that. Read >>>>>> any >>>>>> site with recipies. It's full of exotic foods and spices >>>>>> from around >>>>>> the world. All of it has to be shipped using large >>>>>> amounts >>>>>> of >>>>>> petro-chemicals. >>>>> >>>>> There are enough vegans who try to eat as much as possible >>>>> food which >>>>> is >>>>> from the country they life in. >>>> ==================== >>>> Really? They aren't here on usenet, not when i read their >>>> recipie >>>> sites... >>> >>> I have t admit i didn't read any english recipes site, i >>> don't >>> know the >>> names of the ingredients and had no need to put time in it. >>> >>>>>> Crop farming is the definition >>>>>> of destruction of a natural environment. You can eat >>>>>> meats >>>>>> that live >>>>>> entirely in natural environments with no damage at all. >>>>>> No >>>>>> crops can >>>>>> say the same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed >>>>>> crap made to >>>>>> look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>>>> ecologically >>>>>> sound, >>>>>> and more humane to animals than that stuff. >>>>> >>>>> Fake meat is mostly for people who start veg*ism, after a >>>>> while you are >>>>> used to the idea to not have meat and start making recipes >>>>> where no >>>>> fake meat is needed to make it tastefull. Most meat is from >>>>> animals who >>>>> life in buildings (stalls or stable or something) they eat >>>>> things like >>>>> grain and tofu, they dont life oustide and eat grass. >>>> ================================ >>>> ALL beef cattle are raised on pasture for most of their >>>> lives, >>>> at least >>>> in the US. Only the last weeks of thier lives are spent at >>>> a >>>> feedlot. >>>> Besides, there are any number of sources for meats raised >>>> without >>>> confimement. >>>> >>>> >>>> I heard for one kilo >>>>> of meat you need between two and ten kilo of food. >>>> ============================== >>>> Another typical vegan ly. It takes exactly zero crops to >>>> feed >>>> beef >>>> cattle. They live on, and turn grass into perfectly good, >>>> healthy, >>>> nutrisious meat. When you can start eating grass direct >>>> from >>>> a pasture >>>> or range, let us know. >>> >>> Maybe a difference with holland, but here the cattle lives >>> stables and get >>> feed. >> ============================= >> Their entire lives? I find that hard to believe. > > To bad it's the truth. ============================== No, it's not. You claimed above that there are exceptions. > >> >>> There is a dutch organisation which is pretty known and sued >>> for a couple >>> of times for things they said (and won the court), i think >>> their >>> information is trustable. You can try to read there site with >>> the links >>> here under, i don't know how readable the translation is. >>> >>> I assume this works >>> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...meen_dier.html >>> Or else you can paste this link >>> http://www.wakkerdier.nl/main.php?cu...meen_dier.html >>> In http://babelfish.altavista.com/ >>> >>>> And do you want to say >>>>> you only eat meat and don't eat vegetables because >>>>> vegetables >>>>> are bad >>>>> for >>>>> the environment? >>>> ======================= >>>> No, but unlike you, I replace 100s of 1000s of calories of >>>> veggies with >>>> the death of one beef cow. Your 100s of 1000s of calories >>>> come at a >>>> much greater price to animals. Especially when you factor >>>> in >>>> all the >>>> imported foods you eat. being vegan does not automatically >>>> mean you've >>>> done anything to reduce your bloody footprints... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It does take environmental damage to grow your veggie >>>> though. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm >>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >>>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm >>>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >>>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html >>>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm >>>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf >>>> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 >>>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm >>>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html >>>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html >>>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html >>> >>> I didn't read all links (some dont work) but i beleave most >>> aren't about >>> organicfood. >> ============================== >> Organic food production uses the same techniques. The >> difference >> is in the pesticides used. many organic pesticides are more >> deadly to animals than synthetic ones. Plus, they have to be >> applied many times a growing season instead of once or twice. >> each mechinized pass through the fields causes even more death >> and suffering. >> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf > > Most organisations are pro organic of course there are > organisations who > don't. I think for everything i found i have reliable sources, > and to be > honest i never heard of CGFI (probably because it's not dutch) > and never > heard this argument against organic, only that it's not more > healty as > non-organic. I wont say that because i don't know CFGI they are > lying or > something but rather wait until this problem is more known so i > hear from > other organisations about is. ============================== Again, the rubes have to belive before you'll spend your money... > >> Plus, all crop productions cause the same thing, an unnatural >> growth in populations of animals because of the easy food and >> cover provided by the crops. Fields can have 100s of small >> animal and birds per acre. Then, the crops are harvested, >> removing all the food and cover. All these animals are now >> left >> without food and cover to die of starvation and predation. >> The >> surrounding areas will not be able to absorb the large numbers >> as >> they will already be at their natural carrying capacity. > > But i suppose this don't count only for organic. ============================== No, it is for all crop production. You know, everything you eat. > >>> >>>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, >>>> here's a >>>> couple to cover some problems with cotton. >>>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html >>>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ >>> >>> I try to buy fair-trade eco cotton, if possible with hemp. >>> ======================== >> And it is still grown the same way. >> >> >>>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a >>>> field, >>>> here's >>>> some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can >>>> be 100s to >>>> 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. >>>> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html >>>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf >>>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html >>>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html >>>> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf >>>> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 >>>> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and >>>> maintaining a web >>>> page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and >>>> communications. >>>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html >>>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >>>> http://www.closeindianpoint.org/articles/tjn_071103.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>>>>> to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>>>> ======================== >>>>>> But that something may be to kill more animals, and >>>>>> destroy >>>>>> more >>>>>> habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' >>>>>> was >>>>>> good? I'd >>>>>> say that results would be a far better reason for taking >>>>>> an >>>>>> action. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> possible >>>>>>> with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> english >>>>>>> word) >>>>>>> and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>>>> dis-membered or >>>>>>>> poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? >>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>> at all, >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>>>> care enough >>>>>>>> about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>>> quit >>>>>>>> driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>>>> enough about >>>>>>>> animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>>>> communications? >>>>>>>> Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>>>> cooking or >>>>>>>> living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> just as >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> as you care, huh? >>>>>>>> > |
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Err oops
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote: > >> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote: >> >> >>> "L3dje" >>> andertje.be.added> >>> wrote in message >>> news
>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:>>>> >>>> >>>>> "L3dje" >>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>> news
>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> possible >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>>>> ============================ >>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> usenet... >>>>>> >>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>>>> ============================= >>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does >>>>> killing them >>>>> and >>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating >>>>> them? >>>> >>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the >>>> animals for >>>> me? >>> ================================== >>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its >>> consequences, >>> are you? >>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From >>> plowing, >>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing >>> stages. >>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your >>> foods. >> >> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, >> the >> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding >> because >> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i >> beleave >> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept >> inside >> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some >> meat-cows >> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not >> denyd by >> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know >> better and >> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So >> agian for >> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. >> Eating vegan >> is better for the envirnoment. >> >> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no >> vegan >> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php >> >> And the site of a chicken farmer. >> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html >> >> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. >> > > Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the > people > don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant > that they > still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage. > I > understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal > products. ================================== Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals die in the production of your crops, regular and organic. large-scale crop productions are fields of killing. You can get 1000s of meals and 100s of 1000s of calories from the death of ONE animal to replace a large portion of the animal that die in crop production. I > tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently > but i think i > confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i > thought > no animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions. =============================== But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately. They are not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers know there are animals in the fields, vegans know that animals are in the fields, eyt neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to alleviate the death and suffering of those animals. That is NOT accidental killing. > > I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing > them and > leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating > them?". =============================== Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of the animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that die for YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think it's OK to kill animals for your food and just leave them to rot? > > |
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Err oops
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:08:10 +0000, rick wrote:
Ok i think i better end this discussion. I beleave we are not getting further and my english isn't good enough to go deeper in to your arguments. I maybe better keep by having less serious conversations in english. Most sources i have are dutch and from most non-dutch sources i don't know their reputation and they take to mutch time to read, which i need for schoolstuff. I already was doubting in the beginning if i head to react to your arguments but couldn't resist and there by overjudged my english. Sorry for the rude end of the conversation. > > "L3dje" > andertje.be.added> > wrote in message > news >> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote: >>> >>> >>>> "L3dje" >>>> andertje.be.added> >>>> wrote in message >>>> news
>>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>> news
>>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as>>>>>>>>> possible >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>>>>> ============================ >>>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>>>>> usenet... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>>>>> ============================= >>>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does killing them >>>>>> and >>>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them? >>>>> >>>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the animals >>>>> for >>>>> me? >>>> ================================== >>>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its >>>> consequences, >>>> are you? >>>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From plowing, >>>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing stages. >>>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your foods. >>> >>> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, the >>> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not excluding because >>> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i beleave >>> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept inside >>> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some meat-cows >>> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not denyd by >>> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know better and >>> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. So agian >>> for >>> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. Eating >>> vegan >>> is better for the envirnoment. >>> >>> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no vegan >>> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php >>> >>> And the site of a chicken farmer. >>> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html >>> >>> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. >>> >>> >> Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of the people >> don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you meant that >> they >> still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the carbage. I >> understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal products. > ================================== > Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals die in > the production of your crops, regular and organic. large-scale crop > productions are fields of killing. You can get 1000s of meals and 100s > of 1000s of calories from the death of ONE animal to replace a large > portion of the animal that die in crop production. > > > I >> tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently but i >> think i >> confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i thought no >> animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions. > =============================== > But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately. They are > not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers know there are > animals in the fields, vegans know that animals are in the fields, eyt > neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to alleviate the death and > suffering of those animals. That is NOT accidental killing. > > > >> I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing them and >> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating them?". > =============================== > Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of the > animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that die for > YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think it's OK to kill > animals for your food and just leave them to rot? > > >> >> |
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Posted to alt.food.vegan
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Yo, "Rick"
rick wrote:
> "nyx" > wrote in message > . .. > >>rick wrote: >> >>>"nyx" > wrote in message ... >>> >>> >>>>rick wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"L3dje" >>>>><linuxmail.org.is.the.domain.and.before.the@m ust.sandertje.be.added> >>>>>wrote in message >>>>>news
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as good as >>>>>>possible and >>>>>>try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>> >>>>>============================ >>>>>I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans here on >>>>>usenet... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I know veganism isn't the only thing to do good for the >>>>>>world and animals >>>>>>aren't the only one who are mis threaded but i got the idea >>>>>>most >>>>>>people only think about their self. >>>>> >>>>>=================== >>>>>True even of vegans... Afterall, here you are on usenet for >>>>>your selfish entertainment, contributing to the death and >>>>>suffering of animals by the billions... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I try to thread everybody the same but >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>some times cant help thinking about most people around me >>>>>>are just only >>>>>>thinking about their self, and don't want to do anything to >>>>>>change the >>>>>>world. I think that peolpe who are vegetarian, vegan or buy >>>>>>fair trade >>>>>>products do at least something and if everybody did this it >>>>>>would be more >>>>>>easy to life envirnoment friendly. >>>>> >>>>>=========================== >>>>>You might 'think' that but that doesn't mean it's true. >>>>>Especially when you are buying all this 'fair-trade' stuff. >>>>>It's all imported from around the world. The only real >>>>>impact you could have would to be eat only locally. Vegans >>>>>don't do that. Read any site with recipies. It's full of >>>>>exotic foods and spices from around the world. All of it has >>>>>to be shipped using large amounts of petro-chemicals. Crop >>>>>farming is the definition of destruction of a natural >>>>>environment. You can eat meats that live entirely in natural >>>>>environments with no damage at all. No crops can say the >>>>>same, Especially all the tofu and tvp processed crap made to >>>>>look/taste like meat. There are real meats far more >>>>>ecologically sound, and more humane to animals than that >>>>>stuff. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Vegans do at least anything it is easy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>to say what they do wrong but atleast they do something. >>>>> >>>>>======================== >>>>>But that something may be to kill more animals, and destroy >>>>>more habitat. Is that what you want, even if the 'intention' >>>>>was good? I'd say that results would be a far better reason >>>>>for taking an action. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>And most (dutch, which i know) vegans try to travel as most >>>>>>as possible >>>>>>with public travel (trains and busses, for when its not an >>>>>>english word) >>>>>>and live as envirnomet friendly as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:31:01 +0000, rick wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Now, does animals getting sliced, diced, shredded, >>>>>>>dis-membered or >>>>>>>poisoned so that I can have fresh veggies bother me? Not >>>>>>>at all, just >>>>>>>as it doesn't really bother any veg*n loon either. Do I >>>>>>>care enough >>>>>>>about animals dying for petro-chemical production? Not >>>>>>>enough to quit >>>>>>>driving, quit buying plastic products, etc. Do I care >>>>>>>enough about >>>>>>>animals dying in power generation and distribution, and >>>>>>>communications? >>>>>>>Not enough to stop heating my house, not enough to stop >>>>>>>cooking or >>>>>>>living, and not enough to give up usenet. All seem to be >>>>>>>just as much >>>>>>>as you care, huh? >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Question for you...based on your knowlege of the definition of >>>>"vegan", what would a person have to do to actually be a >>>>"vegan" to satisfy this definition? >>> >>>==================== >>>Do you know the definition? >> >>Yes, actually I do. BTW - I am not a vegan. >> >>>"...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of >>>exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and >>>includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of >>>living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion >>>of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its >>>derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all >>>commodities derived wholly or in part from animals..." >>>Donald Watson, 1944 >>> >>>he's the guy who made up the term. No one here on usenet is >>>doing anything near to 'exclude(s) all forms of exploitation >>>of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom'. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>You seem to have many criticisms of the lifestyle, so I >>>>wonder... >>>> >>>>..if you can give all the vegans a list to follow, and they >>>>did it, then would you be happy? >>> >>>========================= >>>There probably are vegans that follow the religion. they just >>>aren't here on usenet, because afterall, you're here only for >>>entertainment basically. >> >>Actually, no, you are incorrect about assuming my reasons for >>being here. I am NOT on the usenet for entertainment. > > ============================ > Ultimately, yes you are. there is NO survival need to be on > usenet. > > > But since I am not a > >>vegan, it does not matter even if I was here for that. I use >>the usenet as a means of gaining knowlege, if you must know... > > ========================== > Knowledge can be gained in more animal friendly ways. Again, > that search for knowledge is basically entertainment. > > > >>You have no survival need to be here, >> >>>you just want to be here, regardless of the cost in animal >>>lives. >> >>Give me enough knowlege, and maybe I will be here for that >>reason. >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>(or do you really even care?) >>> >>>======================= >>>No. You can live and eat anything you want. I'm just >>>responding to the blatant hypocrisy of vegans on usenet... >> >>Guess it's a good thing I'm not vegan then, that way you won't >>call me a hypocryt about THAT subject. >> >>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe >>describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be >>vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious.... > > =========================== > LOL That's not for me to determine. I don't care how anybody > wants to live. > > > >>...is it even possible in this day and age? What "modern >>conveniences" would a vegan have to give up, and could a vegan >>survive that way? I am going to admit right now, I don't know >>all those answers, so maybe you can enlighten me... > > =========================== > There are people that live mostly off-the-grid. But, they aren't > necessesarily vegan. It's far easier to raise some meat animals > or eat game as part of your diet than to grow all your own food. > As for usenet vegans, no, I don't think they could even come > close because they are mostly about convenience. Again, they > follow only a simple rule for their simple minds, 'eat no meat.' > They haven't given any thought about what they choices mean, they > just think it sounds good. > > > > >>Nothing will offend me on this cause remember, I'm not a vegan. >>I don't eat meat either, but it's because of a choice related >>to health. My choice. Just like other's have a choice to eat >>meat. I don't condone a vegan lifestyle, and I don't condone a >>meat eating one either. I also don't pass judgement's against >>either choice, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater. >> >>I was hoping to find good recipes on this board, but somehow >>managed to get sidetracked.... > > ==================== > There are better places I'm sure to get recipies... :-) > > > >>> >>> > Yes, you are soooo right on that one! |
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Yo, "Rick"
Kevan Smith wrote:
> In article >, > nyx > wrote: > > >>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe describe >>for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually be vegan and NOT be >>a hypocrit. I am curious.... > > > Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to. Language is > built on consensus, and we already have well-accepted definitions of > vegan to go by. [ http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ] > Rick's conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the > generally accepted meanings. > No worries about me accepting Rick's definition I already know it, I just wanted to make him recite it. |
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Posted to alt.food.vegan
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Yo, "Rick"
"nyx" > wrote in message ... > Kevan Smith wrote: >> In article >, >> nyx > wrote: >> >> >>>So to get to the REAL question that I asked, could you maybe >>>describe for me a lifestyle in which a person could actually >>>be vegan and NOT be a hypocrit. I am curious.... >> >> >> Don't let Rick define the term vegan the way he wants to. >> Language is built on consensus, and we already have >> well-accepted definitions of vegan to go by. [ >> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vegan ] Rick's >> conceptualization of "vegan" is way out of step with the >> generally accepted meanings. >> > > No worries about me accepting Rick's definition ============================= Again, it is NOT my definition. It is the definition of veganism by the person who made up the term and defined the religion. That people are too lazy to live in that manner does not change the original, real meaning of the word. I already know it, I > just wanted to make him recite it. |
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Posted to alt.food.vegan
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Err oops
"L3dje" andertje.be.added> wrote in message news > On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:08:10 +0000, rick wrote: > > Ok i think i better end this discussion. I beleave we are not > getting > further and my english isn't good enough to go deeper in to > your > arguments. ======================= It's been fine enough to get your idea across. Of course, you seriously lack an understanding of how you impact animal and the environment with the entirity of your life. What you eat is but a small part. I maybe better keep by having less serious conversations in > english. Most sources i have are dutch and from most non-dutch > sources i > don't know their reputation and they take to mutch time to > read, which i > need for schoolstuff. I already was doubting in the beginning > if i head to > react to your arguments but couldn't resist and there by > overjudged my > english. Sorry for the rude end of the conversation. ======================= Nothing new to quick endings, at least you explained yourself. > > >> >> "L3dje" >> andertje.be.added> >> wrote in message >> news >>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:04:23 +0200, L3dje wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:44:31 +0000, rick wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> "L3dje" >>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>> news
>>>>>> On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 01:54:33 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:17:46 +0000, rick wrote:>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "L3dje" >>>>>>>>> andertje.be.added> >>>>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news
>>>>>>>>>> Ok but what if there are vegans who try to live as >>>>>>>>>> good as >>>>>>>>>> possible >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> try not to judge other people for what they do. >>>>>>>>> ============================ >>>>>>>>> I don't know any, but then, there are NO real vegans >>>>>>>>> here on >>>>>>>>> usenet... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Veganism is about trying not to use any animal products, >>>>>>> ============================= >>>>>>> That does not mean they kill fewer animals. Why does >>>>>>> killing them >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and >>>>>>> eating them? >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you mean that when i don't eat meat they still kill the >>>>>> animals >>>>>> for >>>>>> me? >>>>> ================================== >>>>> Surely you aren't this ignorant of your lifestyle and its >>>>> consequences, >>>>> are you? >>>>> Crop production is nothing more than killing fields. From >>>>> plowing, >>>>> planting, spraying, harvesting, and on into the processing >>>>> stages. >>>>> Animals are systematically and deliberately killed for your >>>>> foods. >>>> >>>> I don't think i said there don't die animals because of me, >>>> the >>>> definiton of veganism talks about trying to and not >>>> excluding because >>>> its almost impossible to not kill any animal in your life (i >>>> beleave >>>> definitions can change). Again in holland animals are kept >>>> inside >>>> stables, except a big part of milkcows, organic-cattle, some >>>> meat-cows >>>> go outside sometimes and of course hobby-cattle. This is not >>>> denyd by >>>> farmers they say animals don't mind because they don't know >>>> better and >>>> they are forced because people only want the cheapest meat. >>>> So agian >>>> for >>>> a kilo of meat there is between 2 and 10 kilo of food used. >>>> Eating >>>> vegan >>>> is better for the envirnoment. >>>> >>>> Look at this site its from a meat organisation, so its no >>>> vegan >>>> propaganda. http://www.varken.net/eenvarkensbedrijf.php >>>> >>>> And the site of a chicken farmer. >>>> http://www.himmelsfarm.nl/scharrelkippen.html >>>> >>>> Both sites go's about how good the animals are treaded. >>>> >>>> >>> Wait i think i mis understood this one. I meant when 5% of >>> the people >>> don't eat cattle they grow 5% less cattle. I thought you >>> meant that >>> they >>> still would grow 100% and trow the left over 5% by the >>> carbage. I >>> understand animals die but it's less as when i eat animal >>> products. >> ================================== >> Prove that statement then. I've shown many ways that animals >> die in >> the production of your crops, regular and organic. large-scale >> crop >> productions are fields of killing. You can get 1000s of meals >> and 100s >> of 1000s of calories from the death of ONE animal to replace a >> large >> portion of the animal that die in crop production. >> >> >> I >>> tought you can't speak of killing when it happens accidently >>> but i >>> think i >>> confused it with assassination or murder. This way i said i >>> thought no >>> animals are killed for me, sorry for the wrong reactions. >> =============================== >> But animals ARE killed for you. Indirectly, and deliberately. >> They are >> not really killed 'accidentally' because the farmers know >> there are >> animals in the fields, vegans know that animals are in the >> fields, eyt >> neither of the 2 groups take ANY action to alleviate the death >> and >> suffering of those animals. That is NOT accidental killing. >> >> >> >>> I only don't understand what you meant with "Why does killing >>> them and >>> leaving them to rot make it better than killing and eating >>> them?". >> =============================== >> Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of >> the >> animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals that >> die for >> YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you think it's >> OK to kill >> animals for your food and just leave them to rot? >> >> >>> >>> > |
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Posted to alt.food.vegan
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Err oops
"Kevan Smith" > wrote in message ... > In article > . net>, > "rick" > wrote: > >> Animals die for your food production, and mine. I eat some of >> the animals that die for my food. YOU, let all the animals >> that >> die for YOUR food production to rot. So again, why do you >> think >> it's OK to kill animals for your food and just leave them to >> rot? > > First of all, you intend to kill all of the animals you > consume. Then > you support a horrific system of animal cruelty to bring that > meat to > your table. ================================= No fool, I do not. Try looking beyond your brainwashing for a change. I eat grass-fed, pasture raised beef. It gets no feed, no, hormones, no drugs, and is never confined. For the death of one animal I get 100s or 1000s of meals. > > Animals do die in grain and vegetable production. It is not the > intent > that they die, but they do. Another term for left to rot is > compost into > soil nutrient. =========================== How is it that when animals are targeted for death with poisons that it is not deliberate, killer? Are you really so stupid as to belive that the poisons are just put out to scare animals away? Besides, you know animals are dying in fields, the farmer knows animals are dying in tyhe fields, yet neither of you do anything to eliminate or even alleviate those deaths. They are NOT accidental deaths. They are systematic, deliberate and paid for and rewarded by YOU, hypocrite! Crop production IS habitat destruction, grass raised animals and game are not. > > -- > fneep |
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