What's the best way to manage my inexpensive, but good, red wines after
opening the bottle, but not drinking it completely?

Do I recork it and keep it at room temp for a few days?
Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days? A week to 10
days?

I don't want to drink a whole bottle just to have a glass with dinner, but I
don't want to throw out 3 fifths of a bottle either.

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>> Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days?
>> A week to 10 days?

> The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
> oxidation risk.

Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my experience,
and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down oxidation.

M.

"Bryan" > wrote in message
. com...
> What's the best way to manage my inexpensive, but good, red wines after
> opening the bottle, but not drinking it completely?
>
> Do I recork it and keep it at room temp for a few days?
> Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days? A week to
> 10 days?
>
> I don't want to drink a whole bottle just to have a glass with dinner, but
> I don't want to throw out 3 fifths of a bottle either.

Keep int in the refrig and let it warm up to about 60 degrees before
drinking.

Michael Pronay ha scritto:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>
>
>>>Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days?
>>>A week to 10 days?
>
>
>>The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
>>oxidation risk.
>
>
> Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my experience,
> and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down oxidation.
>
> M.

It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine) is twice
than at 20°C

Luk

Luk ha scritto:
> Michael Pronay ha scritto:
>
>> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>>
>>>> Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days? A
>>>> week to 10 days?
>>
>>
>>
>>> The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the oxidation
>>> risk.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my experience,
>> and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down oxidation.
>> M.
>
>
> It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine) is twice
> than at 20°C
>
> Luk

Sorry not twice but a bit less

http://www.colby.edu/cpse/equipment2/simple/algo.html

Luk

Luk > wrote:

>>> The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
>>> oxidation risk.

>> Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my
>> experience, and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down
>> oxidation.

> It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine)
> is twice than at 20°C

So what? Oxidation is the reaction of wine with oxigen, not
the content in itself. Reaction *is* much slower at cooler
temperatures.

M.

Michael Pronay ha scritto:
> Luk > wrote:
>
>
>>>>The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
>>>>oxidation risk.
>
>
>>>Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my
>>>experience, and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down
>>>oxidation.
>
>
>>It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine)
>>is twice than at 20°C
>
>
> So what? Oxidation is the reaction of wine with oxigen, not
> the content in itself. Reaction *is* much slower at cooler
> temperatures.
>
> M.

IMHO it is disputable if oxidation occurs at the wine surface because of
enviromental oxygen or inside the wine when it absorbs oxigen. You are
right, but it is also true that cooling wine it absorbs oxigen.

Luk

On Oct 19, 7:59 pm, "Dionysus" > wrote:
> Keep int in the refrig and let it warm up to about 60 degrees before
> drinking.

There's a point at which one realizes that a major personal change has
taken place. When I read this post, my reaction was Good grief, man,
that's damn hot!"

Then I realized he was talking about Farenheit. And this despite
growing up in the States and, for years, reaching for my calculator
whenever anyone used Centigrade. Looks like my six and one-half years
of living abroad have finally taken hold.

Jim

I am not a chemist, nor do I play one on TV. But I agree with Michael
Pronay just based on anecdotal evidence - it seems to me that
refrigerated half-filled bottles are less prone to oxidation than ones
left on counter.

Mike Tommasi wrote:
>>
>
> Just to shift a bit, here is a pearl of wisdom from Nicolas Joly (wee
> his site): "Wines produced by biodynamic agriculture don't suffer from
> oxydation". Wow ! ;-)))
>
>
Uh huh.
I actually find many of M. Joly's wines taste oxidized upon opening.
The rep once told me "that's what Chenin Blanc tastes like" (my
response was "not from Closel, Papin, Huet, Epire, etc etc etc).

On 19 Oct 2006 05:08:52 -0700
"Jim" > wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 19, 7:59 pm, "Dionysus" > wrote:
> > Keep int in the refrig and let it warm up to about 60 degrees before
> > drinking.
>
> There's a point at which one realizes that a major personal change has
> taken place. When I read this post, my reaction was Good grief, man,
> that's damn hot!"
>
> Then I realized he was talking about Farenheit. And this despite
> growing up in the States and, for years, reaching for my calculator
> whenever anyone used Centigrade. Looks like my six and one-half years
> of living abroad have finally taken hold.
>

Congratulations, you are now officially an outsider. Since you live in
Tokyo at least they let you keep the housing deduction. (As of a few
days ago, anyway).

Go Mets!

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Luk wrote:
> Michael Pronay ha scritto:
> > Luk > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>>The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
> >>>>oxidation risk.
> >
> >
> >>>Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my
> >>>experience, and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down
> >>>oxidation.
> >
> >
> >>It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine)
> >>is twice than at 20°C
> >
> >
> > So what? Oxidation is the reaction of wine with oxigen, not
> > the content in itself. Reaction *is* much slower at cooler
> > temperatures.
> >
> > M.
>
> IMHO it is disputable if oxidation occurs at the wine surface because of
> enviromental oxygen or inside the wine when it absorbs oxigen. You are
> right, but it is also true that cooling wine it absorbs oxigen.
>
> Luk

Pardon me Luk, but this does not hold water. Solubility of gases in a
liquid does decrease with temperature (all other things being
constant), but the rate of oxidation of an organic molecule increases
with temperature (all other things being constant). One does not offset
the other - the oxidation rate increases in spite of higher solubility.

And what we are discussing is oxidation of, not dissolution of oxygen
in, the wine. Cooling wine (or any organic chemical) will make it less
likely to oxidise - whatever be the solubility of oxygen in it.

Cooling will also make the mixture less volatile and certain "light"
hydrocarbons in the mixture will not evaporate so easily. Depending on
the wine in question, this may be a good or a bad thing of course, but
is usually a good thing.

Also, the difference of solubility at 20 % degree Centigrade is
probably 3 mg for half a bottle of wine. This small quantity is not
going to oxidise the wine so very appreciably. I do not have a model
which estimate oxidation rates of any organic chemical at various
temperatures, but the impact oxidation has on the wine (reflected by
change in odour, taste and sedimentation) is more in the deci- or whole
grams order of magnitude.

Difficulty in oxidising hydrocarbons at low temperature is why one
needs all manners of efforts to ignite car engines on cold morning.

Cheers

TB wrote:
> Luk wrote:
>
>>Michael Pronay ha scritto:
>>
>>>Luk > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
>>>>>>oxidation risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my
>>>>>experience, and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down
>>>>>oxidation.
>>>
>>>
>>>>It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine)
>>>>is twice than at 20°C
>>>
>>>
>>>So what? Oxidation is the reaction of wine with oxigen, not
>>>the content in itself. Reaction *is* much slower at cooler
>>>temperatures.
>>>
>>>M.
>>
>>IMHO it is disputable if oxidation occurs at the wine surface because of
>>enviromental oxygen or inside the wine when it absorbs oxigen. You are
>>right, but it is also true that cooling wine it absorbs oxigen.
>>
>>Luk
>
>
> Pardon me Luk, but this does not hold water. Solubility of gases in a
> liquid does decrease with temperature (all other things being
> constant), but the rate of oxidation of an organic molecule increases
> with temperature (all other things being constant). One does not offset
> the other - the oxidation rate increases in spite of higher solubility.
>
> And what we are discussing is oxidation of, not dissolution of oxygen
> in, the wine. Cooling wine (or any organic chemical) will make it less
> likely to oxidise - whatever be the solubility of oxygen in it.
>
> Cooling will also make the mixture less volatile and certain "light"
> hydrocarbons in the mixture will not evaporate so easily. Depending on
> the wine in question, this may be a good or a bad thing of course, but
> is usually a good thing.
>
> Also, the difference of solubility at 20 % degree Centigrade is
> probably 3 mg for half a bottle of wine. This small quantity is not
> going to oxidise the wine so very appreciably. I do not have a model
> which estimate oxidation rates of any organic chemical at various
> temperatures, but the impact oxidation has on the wine (reflected by
> change in odour, taste and sedimentation) is more in the deci- or whole
> grams order of magnitude.
>
> Difficulty in oxidising hydrocarbons at low temperature is why one
> needs all manners of efforts to ignite car engines on cold morning.

Wow, an actual chemistry discussion here. Let's see what I can add:

1. Yes, oxygen does have a higher solubility in cold water than in room
temp water; that's why coffee should be made from cold water brought to
near-boiling (it has the highest amount of dissolved oxygen).

2. The rate of oxidation of any substance in solution will depend on
tepmerature, its concentration and the concentration of oxygen in
solution, hence the relevance of solubility data. For the science wonks
in the audience, the functional form is:

rate = k[organic][O2]

where k is a so-called rate constant specific to the reaction in
question, and the brackets indicate concentration

3. rate also depends on the inverse of temperature, the functional form
being:

rate = Ae^(-ˆ†G€¡/kT)

where A is a constant, ˆ†G€¡ is the energy barrier (reaction-specific), k
is Boltzmann's constant and T is of course temperature

4. The issue of oxygen solubility becomes virtually moot if one makes
any effort to exclude oxygen from the bottle, either by evacuation or
filling to the top, or blanketing with nitrogen, etc.

5. My own experience is that cooling the wine down does hlpe preserve
it, but I usually take pains to exclude oxygen.

HTH
Mark Lipton

Bryan wrote:
> What's the best way to manage my inexpensive, but good, red wines after
> opening the bottle, but not drinking it completely?
>
> Do I recork it and keep it at room temp for a few days?
> Do I recork it and keep it in the refrigerator for a few days? A week to 10
> days?
>
> I don't want to drink a whole bottle just to have a glass with dinner, but I
> don't want to throw out 3 fifths of a bottle either.

I use a vaccuum pump, which will preserve the wine for a day or two
quite well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-wine-vacuum-...QQcmdZViewItem

Mark Lipton wrote:
> 1. Yes, oxygen does have a higher solubility in cold water than in room
> temp water; that's why coffee should be made from cold water brought to
> near-boiling (it has the highest amount of dissolved oxygen).

That semi-colon reminds me of the famous 'step 2: a miracle occurs'
cartoon . Why is coffee better when made with high dissolved-O2?

> 2. The rate of oxidation of any substance in solution will depend on
> tepmerature, its concentration and the concentration of oxygen in
> solution, hence the relevance of solubility data. For the science wonks
> in the audience, the functional form is:
>
> rate = k[organic][O2]
>
> where k is a so-called rate constant specific to the reaction in
> question, and the brackets indicate concentration
>
> 3. rate also depends on the inverse of temperature, the functional form
> being:
>
> rate = Ae^(-ˆ†G€¡/kT)
>
> where A is a constant, ˆ†G€¡ is the energy barrier (reaction-specific), k
> is Boltzmann's constant and T is of course temperature

If every equation halves your audience, we're in trouble by now!

Note that theoretically*, your tastebuds are more sensitive at lower
temperature, as their resting membrane potential is closer to zero (from
the Nernst equation:

R T Extra_Con_i
E = ----- ln( ------------- )
i z F Intra_Con_i

where T is the only variable of RT/zF). However, this is way more than
cancelled out by (i) alterations in membrane fluidity, which are
especially important in the nasal epithelium, and will reduce ability to
respond to stimuli, and (ii) reduced volatility of the compounds which
would otherwise bind at that epithelium.

*i.e. marginally at best!

OK, this was gratuitous. However, just back from the Neurosci meeting and
having just taught sensory neuro, it was - warning, pun impending - on the
tip of my tongue..

Ewan McNay wrote:
>
>
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>> 1. Yes, oxygen does have a higher solubility in cold water than in room
>> temp water; that's why coffee should be made from cold water brought to
>> near-boiling (it has the highest amount of dissolved oxygen).
>
> That semi-colon reminds me of the famous 'step 2: a miracle occurs'
> cartoon . Why is coffee better when made with high dissolved-O2?

Because the characteristic aroma of coffee is produced by the oxidation
of a thiol in the coffee, so one needs the dissolved oxygen to promote
that reaction.

Great use of gratuitous math, Ewan, not to mention the puns!

Mark Lipton

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:10:37 -0400, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>4. The issue of oxygen solubility becomes virtually moot if one makes
>any effort to exclude oxygen from the bottle, either by evacuation or
>filling to the top, or blanketing with nitrogen, etc.
>
>5. My own experience is that cooling the wine down does hlpe preserve
>it, but I usually take pains to exclude oxygen.

I understood that most of the oxygen that causes damage will be in the
wine before it is put into storage. The extra bit that may enter
through the surface of the wine in a stationay bottle is minimal
compared with that which will enter as the wine is being sloshed in
the bottle while pouring glasses. And decanting into a half bottle
may make matters even worse. So the issue is rather how to stop the
dissolved oxygen from oxidising the wine.

Evacuation or blanketting will of course reduce the partial pressure
of oxygen above the wine, and so may pull oxygen out of the wine, but
again I doubt how big this effect will be.

In practice I am not sure how much any of this matters. Personally,
these days I normally recork and put in the fridge.

Some think that evacuation removes aromas. Anyone here with any
thoughts on that. Again, I find it difficult to believe it makes much
difference.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:05:08 GMT, Zane >
wrote:

>It's occurred to me that there's probably some way to refill a box
>wine bladder so that there's no air inside and reseal it, short of
>using a syringe like refilling an inkjet cartridge. Any thoughts on
>this by the inventive?

Box wine bladders are not a good oxygen barrier at the best of times.
Reusing an old one is not a good idea IMO.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:43:35 +0100, Steve Slatcher
> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:10:37 -0400, Mark Lipton >
>wrote:
>
>>4. The issue of oxygen solubility becomes virtually moot if one makes
>>any effort to exclude oxygen from the bottle, either by evacuation or
>>filling to the top, or blanketing with nitrogen, etc.
>>
>>5. My own experience is that cooling the wine down does hlpe preserve
>>it, but I usually take pains to exclude oxygen.
>
>I understood that most of the oxygen that causes damage will be in the
>wine before it is put into storage. The extra bit that may enter
>through the surface of the wine in a stationay bottle is minimal
>compared with that which will enter as the wine is being sloshed in
>the bottle while pouring glasses. And decanting into a half bottle
>may make matters even worse. So the issue is rather how to stop the
>dissolved oxygen from oxidising the wine.
>
>Evacuation or blanketting will of course reduce the partial pressure
>of oxygen above the wine, and so may pull oxygen out of the wine, but
>again I doubt how big this effect will be.
>
>In practice I am not sure how much any of this matters. Personally,
>these days I normally recork and put in the fridge.
>
>Some think that evacuation removes aromas. Anyone here with any
>thoughts on that. Again, I find it difficult to believe it makes much
>difference.

I don't recall ever having had a bottle around long enough for it to
make a difference.

Gadgets like vacu-vins and nitrogen bottles, practices like pouring
into smaller bottles, concerns about re-corking or not, all seem to be
solutions to a problem that I don't encounter.

Options I use:
1.) Drink the wine.
2.) Have a friend help
3.) Linger later to finish the wine
4.) Leave the unfinished (if there is any) in the bottle and try it
tomorrow--I notice that Dale W says he does this a lot!


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:21:02 GMT, Zane >
wrote:

>As an experiment, I kept an virtually-emptied bladder (a couple of
>ounces of wine still blocking the tap) around for a few weeks. After
>that time it had not had any additional air leakage into it that I
>could see. (Indeed, I couldn't see any air pockets at all. ) To
>verify that it wasn't just stuck to itself, I unblocked the tap and
>cracked it just a little and the bladder immediately started to fill
>with air and expand.

A few weeks would be OK. But try keeping a wine box for a few months
past it's "best before" date (which is usually quite short). You will
I bet find the wine noticably oxidised. But even then I doubt you
will find air pockets. After the bag has been used once, it will have
a few creases and cracks that will make it even worse a barrier to
oxygen.

That isn't to say that the idea of some suction device is not a good
one though. I believe such devices are available for purchase and
aimed at bars. They just use something more sophisticated than a wine
bag to contain the wine.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Zane,
I really think the best solutions are going to be either an inert gas
method or the small bottle method (I guess you could do both). You
mentioned the small neck of a 187. One thing to try might be to fill
all the way to the top (since they are screwcap) so thee is no neck
air. If you could minimize agitation (pour slowly and smoothly through
a funnel) and pour immediately after opening the "master bottle" it
might help. And then refrigerate.

I'm not sure anything will give you a method that is indistinguishable
from a freshly opened bottle for 2 weeks. I find it helps a lot to have
a wife who likes wine (and friends who do). And I still produce a lot
of red wine vinegar in my crock!

Another option of course is to buy 375s. That way you'd only need to do
one 187 per bottle if you were drinking 6 oz or so a night.

PS I've seen people talk of freezing wines, but have never tried myself
except for cubes reduced wine for cooking (which I gave up on, as it
was seldom I didn't have wine around for that and we were short
onfreezer space).

Steve Slatcher wrote:

> I understood that most of the oxygen that causes damage will be in the
> wine before it is put into storage. The extra bit that may enter
> through the surface of the wine in a stationay bottle is minimal
> compared with that which will enter as the wine is being sloshed in
> the bottle while pouring glasses. And decanting into a half bottle
> may make matters even worse. So the issue is rather how to stop the
> dissolved oxygen from oxidising the wine.

Steve,
Most certainly it is the dissolved oxygen that is at issue here.
However, when you open a bottle of wine, it is reasonable to assume that
the wine is in a reductive state at that moment (little to no dissolved
oxygen). The diffusion of oxygen through the small aperture of the neck
is not a fast process and in fact would take several hours if not longer
to reach saturation. So, if you decant into a smaller bottle
immediately after opening, and if you do so with a minimal amount of
agitation to the wine (i.e., strive for strictly laminar flow), you
shouldn't end up with much oxygen in the wine.
>
> Evacuation or blanketting will of course reduce the partial pressure
> of oxygen above the wine, and so may pull oxygen out of the wine, but
> again I doubt how big this effect will be.

Not very is my guess. The rate of reaction of oxygen in solution is
likely many orders of magnitude faster than its rate of dissolution.

Mark Lipton

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:40:08 GMT, Zane >
wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:06:51 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>>Options I use:
>>1.) Drink the wine.
>>2.) Have a friend help
>>3.) Linger later to finish the wine
>>4.) Leave the unfinished (if there is any) in the bottle and try it
>>tomorrow--I notice that Dale W says he does this a lot!
>
>This subject has probably been beaten to death, but for some of us
>those options aren't exactly satisfying.

I realize that, and my post was with tongue planted somewhat firmly in
my chubby cheek.
>
>I like to drink a single glass of wine with dinner virtually every
>evening, and my wife does not. I also don't eat the same thing every
>night and therefore don't necessarily like the same kind of wine every
>night. I'm probably not that unusual in these habits.

Enjoying a glass of wine with dinner is a high point of any day.
You're unusual in that you are successfully in limiting the intake.
>
>So the ideal situation for me would be to have about 4 bottles of wine
>open at the same time, meaning that each bottle would have to stay
>drinkable for more than two weeks if you didn't want to throw it out.
>(Again, ideally.) Just leaving it in the bottle for a few days turns
>good wine into undrinkable stuff, as far as I'm concerned. Paying 15
>or 20 USD per glass maybe five times a week seems wasteful even if one
>is rich.

Your scenario is an extreme. I'll concede that a single wine
repeatedly for four days in a row would be boring at best. And,
certainly one wine does not easily accompany the menu for four
straight days. Yet an argument can be made that sampling the same wine
over a period of two or three days (at the longest) might illuminate
some nuances and demonstrate some development in the wine that might
otherwise be missed.

>So, looking for a way to make a bottle stay reasonably the same as
>when opened for a day or seven or more is probably as important for
>me, and people like me, as the initial quality of the everyday wine
>itself. Otherwise, one has to limit oneself to box wine.
>
>Zane

Box wine is not the limitation it once was, but I get your point.

Probably my issue is that, first, most wines don't really deteriorate
badly in 24 hours or so--admittedly old wines can erode very quickly
some times, but most wines of the sort that we would explore with
meals on a daily basis are not so fragile. IOW, over a day or two you
usually won't need extreme life-support measures.

Second, is that over the years and having enthusiastically involved
myself in a wide range of extra-curricular interests I've noticed a
pattern in which a wide range of complex, arcane, pseudo-sophisticated
and usually pricey products are developed to cater to the demands of
the aficianado. Whether it is a laser rangefinder for distance to the
pin on a golf course or a wrist altimeter to measure how high on the
mountain you are as a skier or a pearly handled Laguiole left-handed
corkscrew or a split-bamboo, hand-wrapped ferrule Orvis fly-rod or a
rare inert gas low pressure Teflon-sealed wine bottle injection system
for preserving left-over wine it generally costs too much, gets soon
abandoned and doesn't really meet a need in the long term.

But it is fun to debate the issue.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Mark Lipton wrote:
> TB wrote:
> > Luk wrote:
> >
> >>Michael Pronay ha scritto:
> >>
> >>>Luk > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>The refrigerator, as Mark will confirm, will increase the
> >>>>>>oxidation risk.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Sorry Mike, but this is contrary to common wisdom, my
> >>>>>experience, and chemistry. Cool temperatures slows down
> >>>>>oxidation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>It results that at 5 °C the oxigen content into water (or wine)
> >>>>is twice than at 20°C
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>So what? Oxidation is the reaction of wine with oxigen, not
> >>>the content in itself. Reaction *is* much slower at cooler
> >>>temperatures.
> >>>
> >>>M.
> >>
> >>IMHO it is disputable if oxidation occurs at the wine surface because of
> >>enviromental oxygen or inside the wine when it absorbs oxigen. You are
> >>right, but it is also true that cooling wine it absorbs oxigen.
> >>
> >>Luk
> >
> >
> > Pardon me Luk, but this does not hold water. Solubility of gases in a
> > liquid does decrease with temperature (all other things being
> > constant), but the rate of oxidation of an organic molecule increases
> > with temperature (all other things being constant). One does not offset
> > the other - the oxidation rate increases in spite of higher solubility.
> >
> > And what we are discussing is oxidation of, not dissolution of oxygen
> > in, the wine. Cooling wine (or any organic chemical) will make it less
> > likely to oxidise - whatever be the solubility of oxygen in it.
> >
> > Cooling will also make the mixture less volatile and certain "light"
> > hydrocarbons in the mixture will not evaporate so easily. Depending on
> > the wine in question, this may be a good or a bad thing of course, but
> > is usually a good thing.
> >
> > Also, the difference of solubility at 20 % degree Centigrade is
> > probably 3 mg for half a bottle of wine. This small quantity is not
> > going to oxidise the wine so very appreciably. I do not have a model
> > which estimate oxidation rates of any organic chemical at various
> > temperatures, but the impact oxidation has on the wine (reflected by
> > change in odour, taste and sedimentation) is more in the deci- or whole
> > grams order of magnitude.
> >
> > Difficulty in oxidising hydrocarbons at low temperature is why one
> > needs all manners of efforts to ignite car engines on cold morning.
>
> Wow, an actual chemistry discussion here. Let's see what I can add:
>
> 1. Yes, oxygen does have a higher solubility in cold water than in room
> temp water; that's why coffee should be made from cold water brought to
> near-boiling (it has the highest amount of dissolved oxygen).
>
> 2. The rate of oxidation of any substance in solution will depend on
> tepmerature, its concentration and the concentration of oxygen in
> solution, hence the relevance of solubility data. For the science wonks
> in the audience, the functional form is:
>
> rate = k[organic][O2]
>
> where k is a so-called rate constant specific to the reaction in
> question, and the brackets indicate concentration
>
> 3. rate also depends on the inverse of temperature, the functional form
> being:
>
> rate = Ae^(-ˆ†G€¡/kT)
>
> where A is a constant, ˆ†G€¡ is the energy barrier (reaction-specific), k
> is Boltzmann's constant and T is of course temperature

Oh my God, I am missing on so much fun! :-)

Mark, what do you estimate the energy-barrier for oxidation of wine may
be? Ballpark, engineering estimate please?

What I am thinking is that if these two (concentration and temperature)
are assumed to be the only two factors relevant to the discussion, we
can compare the % impact on the rate of the increase of cct vs.
reduction of temperature.

The other question I have in my mind is: would a wine bottle kept still
absorb more oxygen automatically as it is cooled?

Cheers!

>
> 4. The issue of oxygen solubility becomes virtually moot if one makes
> any effort to exclude oxygen from the bottle, either by evacuation or
> filling to the top, or blanketing with nitrogen, etc.
>
> 5. My own experience is that cooling the wine down does hlpe preserve
> it, but I usually take pains to exclude oxygen.
>
> HTH
> Mark Lipton

A few years ago my father and I did a single-blind taste-test with
left-over wine. Single-blind means the tester knew which was which,
but not the one doing the tasting.

I liked the wine put in the fridge and preserved with nitrogen the
best. I didn't like the vacu-vin preserved wine nearly as much.

I think, but my recollection may be wrong, that my father preferred the
vacu-vin wine.

In both cases, having preserved it in the fridge vs. room temperature
was better.

Anyway, I submit that I'm more of a wine expert than my dad, so I stick
with my preferred results!

Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>> Just to shift a bit, here is a pearl of wisdom from Nicolas
>>> Joly (wee his site): "Wines produced by biodynamic agriculture
>>> don't suffer from oxydation". Wow ! ;-)))

Seems to me that the guy has no idea about what he speaks. And
little idea about winemaking.

>> Uh huh. I actually find many of M. Joly's wines taste oxidized
>> upon opening.

Many? I haven't had one single non-oxidized bottle from this
producer, beginning from the days he personally poured his wines
at the "Union des gens du métier" tasting during Vinexpo some 20
years ago.

> that's right, every second bottle seems to be that way. Not that
> I mind it that much, as it does not prevent the extraordianry
> evolution of a good year's QdS in the bottle as a meal goes
> on... However some vintages seem to verge on being off.

So you have been happier than I.

"QdS" = Qoulée de Serrant? Quart de Schaumes?

M.

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

> But try keeping a wine box for a few months past it's "best
> before" date (which is usually quite short).

Hmmm. The box used by Jean Guyon, owner of chteaux Rollan de
Byand Tour Haut Caussan, says the producers of the box give 15
months after filling as a best-before date for the unopened box,
6 months for the opened.

M.

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>>>> Just to shift a bit, here is a pearl of wisdom from Nicolas
>>>>> Joly (wee his site): "Wines produced by biodynamic
>>>>> agriculture don't suffer from oxydation". Wow ! ;-)))

>> Seems to me that the guy has no idea about what he speaks. And
>> little idea about winemaking.

> Ah yes, precisely, but this is the wolrd guru of biodynamics and
> the winemaker of the Coulée de Serrant...

I know.

>>>> Uh huh. I actually find many of M. Joly's wines taste
>>>> oxidized upon opening.

>> Many? I haven't had one single non-oxidized bottle from this
>> producer, beginning from the days he personally poured his
>> wines at the "Union des gens du métier" tasting during Vinexpo
>> some 20 years ago.

> OK, but every so often if you get a bottle over 10 years old
> (from the time when he used to make the wine, instead of
> spending all his time on world tours speaking and promoting
> his book), it can be stupendous.

So obviously I was kind of unfortunate. But I am not sure. Three
or four years back, I was invited to Millésima, the Bordeaux
retail wine merchant. We were 50 or so (trade, press etc.) from
all over Europe. Dinner was in Millésima's chai in Bordeaux. We
were seated at tables of eight. After champagne as apéritif, the
first wine served was Clos de la Coulée de Serrant 1996. It was
like a crack right though the middle of the table: four found
it absolutely stunning, albeit a little on the youngish side.
Four others (me being among these) found it hopelessly oxidized
and faulty.

M.

> I have tried filling some screwcap 187 ml bottles with the freshly
> opened wine -- the idea being to fill to the point where the oxygen
> amount in the bottle neck is small. I've had mixed results, probably
> because of imperfect stopper seals -- can still tell the difference
> after a few days with a newly opened bottle. Anyone else tried this?

I do it all the time (with corks, and I insert a paper clip in before
the cork to allow air to escape, and then remove the paperclip). It
works very well.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> Some think that evacuation removes aromas. Anyone here with any
> thoughts on that. Again, I find it difficult to believe it makes much
> difference.

After using the pump for a while, I tend to agree. However this is
offset by the reduction of oxidation (or whatever it is that makes wine
go bad after a week). So I pump if I don't have a full container.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.