A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for help
with the wine list. So I have a fun (I find it fun) question for the
wine community: what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?
there's no regional cuisine associated with the restaurant, but it is
proposed to be "upscale" maybe $25-40 a plate. she's looking for some
specific wine recomendations, from the everyday to the extravagant, the
common to rare to infamous names.

thanks for any help, maybe this restaurant will exist someday
-tomw

p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

> what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?

Dunno in terms of actual bottles, but a few reccomendations would be
nice. For the meals that the restaurant serves, a few comments on the
=kind= of wines which would probably go well (and why), and then three
or so reccomendations. Some restaurants will reccomend only one wine,
which I don't like (it presumes to make a decision for me, rather than
give me information with which I could make a choice), and others give
no reccomendations at all, leaving me to guess what the chef has in mind
based on the menu's sometimes inadequate descriptions.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Tom" > wrote:

> A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for
> help with the wine list. ...
>
> p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

Makes absoluetly no sense when you don't say where you're based:
London, Madrid, Martinique? Kuala Lumpur, Moscow, Singapore?
Cape Town, Milan, Buenos Aires?

M.

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>> A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for
>>> help with the wine list. ...
>>>
>>> p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

>> Makes absoluetly no sense when you don't say where you're based:
>> London, Madrid, Martinique? Kuala Lumpur, Moscow, Singapore?
>> Cape Town, Milan, Buenos Aires?

> Michael, it's obviously the US
>
> ;-)

Of course. But I won't tell you that markets/availability/prices
might differ slightly from state to state ... ;-)

M.

Here are examples of 10 types of whites and 10 reds that one can obtain
for $20 or less retail. A variety of choices, a few geeky but many
chosen for familiarity (important in restaurants- geeks are few and far
between). Trying to walk the tightrope between blandness and financial
suicide. I starred 4 of each to choose for by the glass.

What is available in NY is not the same as in Delaware, so I didn't
list specific producers. Your friend should go to a good wine shop and
price what is available there.

White
2 Chardonnays: 1 French (Macon or Chablis), 1 US*
1 Gruner Veltliner*
2 Pinot Gris: 1 Italian P. Grigio (not Santa Margherita) ,1 Oregon
2 Sauvignon Blancs: 1 NZ*, 1 Loire
1 Southern Italian : Falaghina or Greco di Tufo
2 Rieslings: 1 dry (Austrian, Alsace, or Australian), 1 off-dry German
(Kabinett level)*

Red
3 Cabernet Sauvignon based wines: 2 CA (*1 by glass), 1 Medoc Bordeaux
2 Merlot based wines: 1 CA, 1 Libournaise Bdx
2 Pinot Noirs: 1 Oregon*, 1 Burgundy*- a base Bourgogne or Cote
Chalonaise is fine
1 Barbera
1 Chianti or Cotes du Rhone*
1 more off-beat red (by US restaurant standards): maybe a Zwiegelt or
Loire cab franc

Then the reserve list, of which you would not need to stock much.
Retail could range from $25 to well over $100 for the mature Bordeaux,
Burgundy, Barolo.

Reserve List
White: One Smaragd or similar Gruner Veltliner, one upper end Alsace or
Austrian Riesling, 1 top German Spatlese Riesling, 2 white Burgundies,
1 demi-sec Vouvray, 1 expensive CA Chardonnay, plus a couple of geek
specials (maybe a mature Savennieres and

Red: Couple mature Bordeaux, couple Nebbiolo ( maybe one pricey mature
Barolo or Barbaresco and one from a forward vintage like 1997 or 2000),
couple Burgundies ( again maybe one mature from a good vintage and one
from a more recent forward vintage), one upper end OR PN, one similar
CA PN, two Rhones, 1 Amarone, 1 Brunello, 1 blockbuster Shiraz, 2 CA
Cabs (one mature), plus a couple of geek specials ( say a Taurasi and a
mature Loire Cab Franc).

Dessert wines (half-bottles or 500ml best):
3 or 4 :German, Sauternes ,Tokaji, US, Loire. Maybe one less expensive
(Monbazillac, Loupiac, Beaumes dVenise, etc) by glass.

"DaleW" > wrote in news:1164634552.414659.167520
@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

> Here are examples of 10 types of whites and 10 reds that one can obtain
> for $20 or less retail. A variety of choices, a few geeky but many
> chosen for familiarity (important in restaurants- geeks are few and far
> between). Trying to walk the tightrope between blandness and financial
> suicide. I starred 4 of each to choose for by the glass.
>
> What is available in NY is not the same as in Delaware, so I didn't
> list specific producers. Your friend should go to a good wine shop and
> price what is available there.
>
> White
> 2 Chardonnays: 1 French (Macon or Chablis), 1 US*
> 1 Gruner Veltliner*
> 2 Pinot Gris: 1 Italian P. Grigio (not Santa Margherita) ,1 Oregon
> 2 Sauvignon Blancs: 1 NZ*, 1 Loire
> 1 Southern Italian : Falaghina or Greco di Tufo
> 2 Rieslings: 1 dry (Austrian, Alsace, or Australian), 1 off-dry German
> (Kabinett level)*
>
> Red
> 3 Cabernet Sauvignon based wines: 2 CA (*1 by glass), 1 Medoc Bordeaux
> 2 Merlot based wines: 1 CA, 1 Libournaise Bdx
> 2 Pinot Noirs: 1 Oregon*, 1 Burgundy*- a base Bourgogne or Cote
> Chalonaise is fine
> 1 Barbera
> 1 Chianti or Cotes du Rhone*
> 1 more off-beat red (by US restaurant standards): maybe a Zwiegelt or
> Loire cab franc
>
> Then the reserve list, of which you would not need to stock much.
> Retail could range from $25 to well over $100 for the mature Bordeaux,
> Burgundy, Barolo.
>
> Reserve List
> White: One Smaragd or similar Gruner Veltliner, one upper end Alsace or
> Austrian Riesling, 1 top German Spatlese Riesling, 2 white Burgundies,
> 1 demi-sec Vouvray, 1 expensive CA Chardonnay, plus a couple of geek
> specials (maybe a mature Savennieres and
>
> Red: Couple mature Bordeaux, couple Nebbiolo ( maybe one pricey mature
> Barolo or Barbaresco and one from a forward vintage like 1997 or 2000),
> couple Burgundies ( again maybe one mature from a good vintage and one
> from a more recent forward vintage), one upper end OR PN, one similar
> CA PN, two Rhones, 1 Amarone, 1 Brunello, 1 blockbuster Shiraz, 2 CA
> Cabs (one mature), plus a couple of geek specials ( say a Taurasi and a
> mature Loire Cab Franc).
>
> Dessert wines (half-bottles or 500ml best):
> 3 or 4 :German, Sauternes ,Tokaji, US, Loire. Maybe one less expensive
> (Monbazillac, Loupiac, Beaumes dVenise, etc) by glass.
>
>

<keeping post in its entirety because it's so nice>

Also - something sparkling, because there will be diners who are
celebrating - perhaps a prosecco, a US sparkler and a Champagne?

One more thing - just because that fancy restaurant downtown charges $15
for a glass of Ridge, that doesn't mean you can charge $15 for a glass of
Mondavi Woodbridge </grr>

d.

Oops, you're right, I totally blew it. Bubbly is obligatory for
restaurants, Prosecco, a US sparkler and a Champagne sound about right.
Or maybe 2 Champagnes- a NV and a vintage (possibly a tete de cuvee)
for those that want to really celebrate (or impress).

Only minimal help on the question, but: I was in the UK on Thurs, hence no
real 'Thanksgiving' but a very nice meal at the Crooked Billet, which has
won the UK Wine List of the Year a couple of times (in part because they
have everything, up to and including '98 Margaux at 110 quid, available by
the glass!). Their current list is available via
http://thebillet.co.uk/menu/view_specials.asp#

E

Tom wrote:

> A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for help
> with the wine list. So I have a fun (I find it fun) question for the
> wine community: what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?
> there's no regional cuisine associated with the restaurant, but it is
> proposed to be "upscale" maybe $25-40 a plate. she's looking for some
> specific wine recomendations, from the everyday to the extravagant, the
> common to rare to infamous names.
>
> thanks for any help, maybe this restaurant will exist someday
> -tomw
>
> p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)
>

Tom wrote:
> A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for help
> with the wine list. So I have a fun (I find it fun) question for the
> wine community: what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?
> there's no regional cuisine associated with the restaurant, but it is
> proposed to be "upscale" maybe $25-40 a plate. she's looking for some
> specific wine recomendations, from the everyday to the extravagant, the
> common to rare to infamous names.
>
> thanks for any help, maybe this restaurant will exist someday
> -tomw
>
> p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

Maybe I should have been more specific, sorry. Location i believe will
be Baltimore, and for prices she knows distributor's prices in MD.
There is an overall idea for the wine list, and the restaurant is
attempting to cater to the ("elitist, eurocentric") oenophile's.
What I was trying to ask is what wines would all of you, as wine geeks,
would love to have on a wine list. which bordeaux or borolo would make
your mouth water when you saw it on the wine list?
I have helped where I can, but my experience is mostly under $15
bottles, although that is changing to the detriment of my wallet

-tomw
"waiting for a credit card in the mail so I can try many more wines"

In article . com>,
says...
>
>A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for help
>with the wine list. So I have a fun (I find it fun) question for the
>wine community: what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?
>there's no regional cuisine associated with the restaurant, but it is
>proposed to be "upscale" maybe $25-40 a plate. she's looking for some
>specific wine recomendations, from the everyday to the extravagant, the
>common to rare to infamous names.
>
>thanks for any help, maybe this restaurant will exist someday
>-tomw
>
>p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

Do not have specific wines, but some general thoughts:

Best recent wine list was Chef Mavro's, Honolulu, HI, US.

Besides a very full list, to compliment their dishes, the sommelier had
several "extras." One was a great half-bottle list. Next was a B-T-G selection
that spanned their premium list with fair pricing. Last was his "selections"
for the various tasting menus, and there were four, included regular B-T-G
selections, PLUS his "rare" selections for a few $ more. All of these were
well worth the extra expense. Since I often dine with my wife, a handful of
half-bottles is a great plus. Who can pick the quintesential bottle to cover
all courses?

Picking the bottles for the cellar, should be highly predicated on the
cuisine. One fine Pacific-Rim restaurants, back in CO, had Silver Oak Napa and
Jordan Sonoma at really good prices - actually less than at either winery, but
their cuisine did not support these two Cabs, regardless of price.

Hunt

In article >, says...
>
>Only minimal help on the question, but: I was in the UK on Thurs, hence no
>real 'Thanksgiving' but a very nice meal at the Crooked Billet, which has
>won the UK Wine List of the Year a couple of times (in part because they
>have everything, up to and including '98 Margaux at 110 quid, available by
>the glass!). Their current list is available via
>http://thebillet.co.uk/menu/view_specials.asp#
>
>E
>
>Tom wrote:
>
>> A friend is designing a restaurant for a class and asked me for help
>> with the wine list. So I have a fun (I find it fun) question for the
>> wine community: what would be on your ideal restaurant wine list?
>> there's no regional cuisine associated with the restaurant, but it is
>> proposed to be "upscale" maybe $25-40 a plate. she's looking for some
>> specific wine recomendations, from the everyday to the extravagant, the
>> common to rare to infamous names.
>>
>> thanks for any help, maybe this restaurant will exist someday
>> -tomw
>>
>> p.s. general retail prices would also help (markup is tbd)

Dang, they are quite a bit outside of London. I guess that I'll have to travel
to the country and give them a try. Thanks for the link.

Hunt

PS Just did the Greenhouse in Mayfair and they, too, had a wonderful wine
list. Did the sommelier's pairing with a six-course menu and it was almost
over the top.

DaleW wrote:

<SNIP>

In additions to Dale's excellent suggestions, I'll some comments of my own:

1. The markups should be a set amount and not a percentage, to encourage
the purchase of more expensive bottles.

2. The list should include a good selection of half bottles and wines by
the glass to accomodate parties that need different wines for different
dishes. When my wife and I dine out, we often want to get a white wine
for the appetizers and a red wine for the main course, but don't want to
drink more than 750 ml of wine.

3. The list should include some aged wines, which can be obtained via
wine auctions such as those put on by Christie's or Hart Davis Hart.

4. The bulk of the wines should be good values rather than the
prestigious names.

5. The wines should be chosen to complement the type of food served at
the restaurant. I am so tired of seeing 5 pages of young Cabernet
Sauvignons on the wine lists of sushi bars. For a good example of a
carefully chosen wine list, see Mark Ellenbogen's list at the Slanted
Door in San Francisco:

http://slanteddoor.com/wine_list.html

Mark Lipton