The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!

We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
My question is "percent of what?"

Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?

Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of blend
of varietals?

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Sep 4, 12:00 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> My question is "percent of what?"
>
> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>
> Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of blend
> of varietals?
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
then blended into the final Grand Vin.

Mark

On Sep 4, 1:48?pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> Tire Bouchon wrote:
> > On Sep 4, 12:00 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> >> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> >> realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> >> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> >> My question is "percent of what?"
>
> >> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> >> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>
> >> Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of blend
> >> of varietals?
>
> >> Ed Rasimus
> >> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> >> "When Thunder Rolled"
> >> www.thunderchief.org
> >> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
>
> > A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
> > picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
> > winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
> > of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
> > then blended into the final Grand Vin.
>
> What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
> ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It is pretty common in CA, especially in old Zin dominated vineyards.
Besides Geyserville, there are several other vineyards that are
interplanted. Thackeray's Orion is one.
I think there are some in the Rhone, too.

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:53:45 -0000, DaleW > wrote:

>On Sep 4, 1:48?pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>> Tire Bouchon wrote:
>> > On Sep 4, 12:00 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>> >> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
>> >> realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>>
>> >> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
>> >> My question is "percent of what?"
>>
>> >> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
>> >> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>>
>> >> Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of blend
>> >> of varietals?
>>
>> >> Ed Rasimus

>>
>> > A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
>> > picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
>> > winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
>> > of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
>> > then blended into the final Grand Vin.
>>
>> What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
>> ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.
>>
>> --
>> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
>> email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>It is pretty common in CA, especially in old Zin dominated vineyards.
>Besides Geyserville, there are several other vineyards that are
>interplanted. Thackeray's Orion is one.
>I think there are some in the Rhone, too.

So, that very discrete percentage of 77/17/6 that I see is just a
wild-guess based on the number of vines for each varietal planted in
the field to be harvested? Or would it be the percentage of acreage
allocated to each varietal? Or would it be the weight of harvest of
each type of vine?

That would lead me to conclude that one vintner's 16% might be
another's 25% or similar disparity.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that..."
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Mike Tommasi wrote:
>
> What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
> ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.

It is also common in Portugal

pk

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:00:37 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> My question is "percent of what?"
>
> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?


I've always assumed that it was the volume of the various wines in the
bottle. In other words if it's 60% cabernet sauvignon, 40% merlot in a
..75 liter bottle, 450ml is wine made from cabernet sauvignon, and
300ml is wine made from merlot.

But I'll admit that that's just an assumption, and I don't know for
sure. I'd appreciate a correction if that's wrong.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

On Sep 4, 1:48 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> Tire Bouchon wrote:
> > On Sep 4, 12:00 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> >> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> >> realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> >> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> >> My question is "percent of what?"
>
> >> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> >> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>
> >> Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of blend
> >> of varietals?
>
> >> Ed Rasimus
> >> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> >> "When Thunder Rolled"
> >> www.thunderchief.org
> >> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
>
> > A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
> > picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
> > winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
> > of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
> > then blended into the final Grand Vin.
>
> What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
> ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Marcel Deiss does for his Grand Cru Vins de Terroir from Mambourg and
Altenbourg. It also accounts for the law allowing up to 13 varietals
in the final bottling of Chateaneuf du Pape. I asked Jean-Louis Chave
what the blend or marsanne and rousanne was in his Hermitage Blanc one
time, and he told me that it was impossible to tell, but that he was
sure the majority was marsanne. Segregating grapes is common in
Bordeaux and California for sure.

Mark

On Sep 4, 2:46 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> So, that very discrete percentage of 77/17/6 that I see is just a
> wild-guess based on the number of vines for each varietal planted in
> the field to be harvested? Or would it be the percentage of acreage
> allocated to each varietal? Or would it be the weight of harvest of
> each type of vine?
>
> That would lead me to conclude that one vintner's 16% might be
> another's 25% or similar disparity.
>
> "Not that there's anything wrong with that..."
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

In vineyards where the grapes are segregated according to varietal, an
exact percentage can be used in the final blend quite obviously. If
the grapes are co-mingled in the vineyard, an educated guess is more
common.

Mark

On Sep 4, 3:09?pm, Ken Blake > wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:00:37 GMT, Ed Rasimus
>
> > wrote:
> > The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> > realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> > We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> > My question is "percent of what?"
>
> > Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> > liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>
> I've always assumed that it was the volume of the various wines in the
> bottle. In other words if it's 60% cabernet sauvignon, 40% merlot in a
> .75 liter bottle, 450ml is wine made from cabernet sauvignon, and
> 300ml is wine made from merlot.
>
> But I'll admit that that's just an assumption, and I don't know for
> sure. I'd appreciate a correction if that's wrong.
>
> --
> Ken Blake
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Here's an interesting article on "field blends".
http://wine.appellationamerica.com/w...romiscua-.html

I was always told that the term field blend was more about blending
during vinification and not so much about site specific vines so what
you put in the fermentation tank was what you ended up with in the
wine as opposed to vinification of separate varietals then blending
afterwards to achieve a certain flavor profile.

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:24:17 -0000, Tire Bouchon
> wrote:


>In vineyards where the grapes are segregated according to varietal, an
>exact percentage can be used in the final blend quite obviously. If
>the grapes are co-mingled in the vineyard, an educated guess is more
>common.
>
>Mark
>

Not to nit-pick (or even grape-pick), but we still don't get an "exact
percentage" without defining percent determined by what?

So, we've got a field with zinfandel, carignane and petite syrah
vines. Do we get our percentage by weight of grapes picked? By number
of discrete grapes (I know that's absurd, but bear with me...)? By
volume of pressing liquid? By volume of the picked grapes--77 barrels
of picked zin, 16 of picked carignane...? By ratio of vines picked?

Are all varietals even picked at the same time, or might one varietal
be harvested two weeks later?

I'm not seeking a UC/Davis education, but simply holding feet to the
fire regarding what should be a fairly simple question.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Sep 4, 3:33 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:24:17 -0000, Tire Bouchon
>
> > wrote:
> >In vineyards where the grapes are segregated according to varietal, an
> >exact percentage can be used in the final blend quite obviously. If
> >the grapes are co-mingled in the vineyard, an educated guess is more
> >common.
>
> >Mark
>
> Not to nit-pick (or even grape-pick), but we still don't get an "exact
> percentage" without defining percent determined by what?
>
> So, we've got a field with zinfandel, carignane and petite syrah
> vines. Do we get our percentage by weight of grapes picked? By number
> of discrete grapes (I know that's absurd, but bear with me...)? By
> volume of pressing liquid? By volume of the picked grapes--77 barrels
> of picked zin, 16 of picked carignane...? By ratio of vines picked?
>
> Are all varietals even picked at the same time, or might one varietal
> be harvested two weeks later?
>
> I'm not seeking a UC/Davis education, but simply holding feet to the
> fire regarding what should be a fairly simple question.
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

I'm gonna say by weight and cross my fingers.

In the case of field blended wines, I've seen two rubrics for giving
the relative percent of differing varietals;

One is by weight of the grapes. There are some field blends being made
in Amador county that do just this. The other, seen on a few
Bordeauxs, is by the acreage planted over to each varietal.




In article > Ed
> wrote:
> The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to
> suddenlyrealize that I didn't know what I didn't know!

> We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended
> wines.My question is "percent of what?"

> Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?

> Does "field blend" denote a difference from some other type of
> blendof varietals?

> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

--
I'm using an evaluation license of nemo since 102 days.
You should really try it!
http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

In article >,
Ed Rasimus > wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:24:17 -0000, Tire Bouchon
> > wrote:
>
>
> >In vineyards where the grapes are segregated according to varietal, an
> >exact percentage can be used in the final blend quite obviously. If
> >the grapes are co-mingled in the vineyard, an educated guess is more
> >common.
> >
> >Mark
> >
>
> Not to nit-pick (or even grape-pick), but we still don't get an "exact
> percentage" without defining percent determined by what?
>
> So, we've got a field with zinfandel, carignane and petite syrah
> vines. Do we get our percentage by weight of grapes picked? By number
> of discrete grapes (I know that's absurd, but bear with me...)? By
> volume of pressing liquid? By volume of the picked grapes--77 barrels
> of picked zin, 16 of picked carignane...? By ratio of vines picked?
>
> Are all varietals even picked at the same time, or might one varietal
> be harvested two weeks later?
>
> I'm not seeking a UC/Davis education, but simply holding feet to the
> fire regarding what should be a fairly simple question.
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

I tend to agree with Ed's point here. If I go to Ridge there fields tend
to be planted in a segregated manner at least from what they showed me.
Everything is labeled quite clearly as to where the Zindfandel is where
the Petit Syrah etc. so they know exactly how much of everything is
planted in their vineyards. In this day and age of mega-wineries and
Ridge does fall into that, they have it all down in databases to know
exactly how much Zind they produce, etc. so the blends should be based
on the percentage of each varietal in the mix by volume. I think the
field blend business is marketing rather than reality.

Mike Tommasi wrote:

>> A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
>> picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
>> winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
>> of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
>> then blended into the final Grand Vin.
>
> What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
> ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.

Really, Mike? There are at least a few domaines in C9dP that continue
to do it IIRC, not to mention all those old "Zin" vineyards in CA that
contain any number of other varieties (gnarly old head-pruned vines are
hard to tell apart, apparently). Also, wouldn't you consider wines made
from "selection massale" vineyards as a field blend of sorts?

Mark
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:28:42 -0700, Bi!! > wrote:

> On Sep 4, 3:09?pm, Ken Blake > wrote:
> > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:00:37 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> > > realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
> >
> > > We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> > > My question is "percent of what?"
> >
> > > Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> > > liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
> >
> > I've always assumed that it was the volume of the various wines in the
> > bottle. In other words if it's 60% cabernet sauvignon, 40% merlot in a
> > .75 liter bottle, 450ml is wine made from cabernet sauvignon, and
> > 300ml is wine made from merlot.
> >
> > But I'll admit that that's just an assumption, and I don't know for
> > sure. I'd appreciate a correction if that's wrong.
> >
> > --
> > Ken Blake
> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup
>
> Here's an interesting article on "field blends".
> http://wine.appellationamerica.com/w...romiscua-.html



Interesting, thanks, but it doesn't answer the question. Bradley Gray
asks "Explain what a field blend is," and then the others dance around
the question without answering it. Or if they do, I missed it.


--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> Not to nit-pick (or even grape-pick), but we still don't get an "exact
> percentage" without defining percent determined by what?
>
> So, we've got a field with zinfandel, carignane and petite syrah
> vines. Do we get our percentage by weight of grapes picked? By number
> of discrete grapes (I know that's absurd, but bear with me...)? By
> volume of pressing liquid? By volume of the picked grapes--77 barrels
> of picked zin, 16 of picked carignane...? By ratio of vines picked?

Ed, keep in mind that field blends are difficult if not impossible to
harvest mechanically without getting grapes of wildly different
ripeness. When hand-harvesting a vineyard, it's relatively easy to put
different kinds of grapes into different containers, even if you don't
have a vineyard map to help guide picking (in Ridge's case, they do have
such maps, which is how they finally determined accurate %ages back in
the late '90s). Since different varieties ripen at different times, it
would be difficult to do a complete cofermentation, though not
impossible I suppose. Thus, they could use either weight of the picked
grapes or liters of fermented juice to determine their stated %ages.
However, Section 4.38g of the TTB regulations regarding wine labeling
mandates that all percentages be reported as percent by volume, so
that's the law. What winemakers actually do is anybody's guess, though ;-)

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

Lawrence Leichtman wrote:

> I tend to agree with Ed's point here. If I go to Ridge there fields tend
> to be planted in a segregated manner at least from what they showed me.
> Everything is labeled quite clearly as to where the Zindfandel is where
> the Petit Syrah etc. so they know exactly how much of everything is
> planted in their vineyards. In this day and age of mega-wineries and
> Ridge does fall into that, they have it all down in databases to know
> exactly how much Zind they produce, etc. so the blends should be based
> on the percentage of each varietal in the mix by volume. I think the
> field blend business is marketing rather than reality.

The vineyards on Monte Bello ridge as distinct from Trentadue ranch,
which is where the Geyserville is sourced; the LS is sourced from
several different vineyards all in the Dry Creek Valley of Sonoma.
Since many of those vineyards were planted 40+ years ago, the notion of
having clean dividing lines between different varieties wasn't so
important. I agree with you that Ridge has a very clear idea of what is
planted where. IIRC, they commissioned a survey of all their vineyard
sources back in the '90s, which is how they determined what they had and
where they had it (and which led, indirectly, to their decision to
"devarietalize" Geyserville and Lytton Springs to avoid running afoul of
the 75% requirement for varietal labeling. Since I don't think that
Ridge makes any reference to field blends in their promotional
literature, it's hard for me to view it as marketing. It just strikes
me as the best way to describe the planting practices.

Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Sep 4, 4:29 pm, Ken Blake > wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:28:42 -0700, Bi!! > wrote:
> > On Sep 4, 3:09?pm, Ken Blake > wrote:
> > > On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:00:37 GMT, Ed Rasimus
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > The Geyserville discussion of blend percentages led me to suddenly
> > > > realize that I didn't know what I didn't know!
>
> > > > We're accustomed to seeing percentage of varietals in blended wines.
> > > > My question is "percent of what?"
>
> > > > Is this a percentage based on weight of grapes, volume of grapes,
> > > > liquid measure of pressing, mixing of vinified pure varietal, or what?
>
> > > I've always assumed that it was the volume of the various wines in the
> > > bottle. In other words if it's 60% cabernet sauvignon, 40% merlot in a
> > > .75 liter bottle, 450ml is wine made from cabernet sauvignon, and
> > > 300ml is wine made from merlot.
>
> > > But I'll admit that that's just an assumption, and I don't know for
> > > sure. I'd appreciate a correction if that's wrong.
>
> > > --
> > > Ken Blake
> > > Please Reply to the Newsgroup
>
> > Here's an interesting article on "field blends".
> >http://wine.appellationamerica.com/w...cultura-Promis...
>
> Interesting, thanks, but it doesn't answer the question. Bradley Gray
> asks "Explain what a field blend is," and then the others dance around
> the question without answering it. Or if they do, I missed it.
>
> --
> Ken Blake
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Here is what a field blend is not: grapes segregated by varietal,
picked at different times, fermented seperately and assembled into a
final blend. The French have a word for that: assemblage. If Ridge,
for example, has different plots for different grapes and assembles a
blend after vinification, this may approximate a the effect of a field
blend but is technically an assemblage. To use Chateauneuf-du-Pape as
an example, a large vineyard my be dominated by one grape variety
(syrah, counoise, grenache) and include small quantities of other
grapes, difficult to identify because of age that are picked together
and vinified in the same tank. This is technically and classically a
field blend.

Mark

On Sep 4, 12:33 pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> Not to nit-pick (or even grape-pick), but we still don't get an "exact
> percentage" without defining percent determined by what?
>
> So, we've got a field with zinfandel, carignane and petite syrah
> vines. Do we get our percentage by weight of grapes picked? By number
> of discrete grapes (I know that's absurd, but bear with me...)? By
> volume of pressing liquid? By volume of the picked grapes--77 barrels
> of picked zin, 16 of picked carignane...? By ratio of vines picked?

At the winery where I work, blends are calculated as percentage by
volume. For example, 500 liters (25%) Wädenswil, 1000 liters (50%)
Dijon-115, 500 liters (25%) Pommard. We don't make a field blend as
such. If we did, I suppose we would count vines or rows, or whatever,
to determine the percentage of each fraction of the blend.

Andy

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:22:00 -0400
Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>
> >> A field blend is just that, a field of grapes of different varieties
> >> picked at once and vinified together, as opposed to, for example,
> >> winemaking in Bordeaux where one vineyard is composed of merlot, one
> >> of cabernet sauvignon, one of petit verdot, etc., vinified apart and
> >> then blended into the final Grand Vin.
> >
> > What you describe as a field blend may have been common practice long
> > ago, I am not aware of anyone doing this today.
>
> Really, Mike? There are at least a few domaines in C9dP that continue
> to do it IIRC, not to mention all those old "Zin" vineyards in CA that
> contain any number of other varieties (gnarly old head-pruned vines are
> hard to tell apart, apparently). Also, wouldn't you consider wines made
> from "selection massale" vineyards as a field blend of sorts?
>

Dale is right too, in the CdR and VdP regions of the Rhone valley this is
still common enough.

I've never heard the term "field blend", though.

-E
--
Emery Davis
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