Hello,
A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and Xina)
yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages to find out
when they are enjoyable - if ever.
Self had made a cassoulet of game (roe buck) and provided three wines,
Ch Theron 2002
Ch Triguedina 1993
Clos Du Peche de Jammes 1983.
One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian this
is special because the domaine is owned by the Queen of Denmark and her
husband, Prince Henrik.

The 2002 was very closed, lots of tannines, nose very shy, some dark fruit.
Mouthfeel was overpowering tannines. Charmless, in fact.
The 1993 was comparatively speaking much more open. It had a lovely nose of
black prunes and dried black olives - in fact, not unlike a Syrahdriven
Rhone valley wine from a warmish year. Also a pepperiness, and event mint.
It still had a lot of tannines, but a certain fruity sweetness which gave it
both an accomodating feeling, while at the same time appearing to have
several years to reach its top.
The 1983 was even more reach in the nose, but perhaps at the same time
tiring - the tannines ahd softened, and the sweetness was much more
predominant. This too, had a lot of dark, dried fruit, but a certain
shortness.
The 1997 was opened late in the evening and I am sad to say, left no notes.

If it is possible to cme to any conclusions from this paucity of data, it
might be that a Cahors wine needs upwards of 15 years in the cellar to be
approachable, and then will do much better with a meal with red meat or
game. A hunter´s wine, as they say in France.

Cheers

Nils
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:26:23 GMT
"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:

> Hello,
> A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and Xina)
> yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages to find out
> when they are enjoyable - if ever.
> Self had made a cassoulet of game (roe buck) and provided three wines,
> Ch Theron 2002
> Ch Triguedina 1993
> Clos Du Peche de Jammes 1983.
> One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian this
> is special because the domaine is owned by the Queen of Denmark and her
> husband, Prince Henrik.
>
> The 2002 was very closed, lots of tannines, nose very shy, some dark fruit.
> Mouthfeel was overpowering tannines. Charmless, in fact.
> The 1993 was comparatively speaking much more open. It had a lovely nose of
> black prunes and dried black olives - in fact, not unlike a Syrahdriven
> Rhone valley wine from a warmish year. Also a pepperiness, and event mint..
> It still had a lot of tannines, but a certain fruity sweetness which gave it
> both an accomodating feeling, while at the same time appearing to have
> several years to reach its top.
> The 1983 was even more reach in the nose, but perhaps at the same time
> tiring - the tannines ahd softened, and the sweetness was much more
> predominant. This too, had a lot of dark, dried fruit, but a certain
> shortness.
> The 1997 was opened late in the evening and I am sad to say, left no notes.
>
> If it is possible to cme to any conclusions from this paucity of data, it
> might be that a Cahors wine needs upwards of 15 years in the cellar to be
> approachable, and then will do much better with a meal with red meat or
> game. A hunter´s wine, as they say in France.
>
Nils,

I object to the subject line...

You wish to draw general conclusions from 3 different wines? In fact Triguedina can
be approachable young, the 90 was a monster but fruit driven, good for those
that like that sort of thing.

In a softer year cahors can be pleasant young, contrary to the "black wine"
reputation. I recommend Dom. de Gravelous or Ch. des Ifs. Fine and silky
within several years.

Hope it's not too cold up there, in Normandy we have gone straight to winter.

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in
:

> Hello,
> A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and
> Xina) yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages
> to find out when they are enjoyable - if ever.
>
> One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian
> this is special because the domaine is owned by the Queen of Denmark
> and her husband, Prince Henrik.
>
The wine is actually made by Georges Vigouroux owner of Chateau de Mercues,
ok more properly the estate is managed by a company owned by G.V.

Malbec is traditionally a big meat, steak kind of wine, break out some elk
(oh I think you have a different name for it gulp) ok try caribou.


--
Joseph Coulter, cruises and vacations
www.josephcoulter.com

877 832 2021
904 631 8863 cell

On Oct 28, 3:26 pm, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote:
> Hello,
> A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and Xina)
> yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages to find out
> when they are enjoyable - if ever.
> Self had made a cassoulet of game (roe buck) and provided three wines,
> Ch Theron 2002
> Ch Triguedina 1993
> Clos Du Peche de Jammes 1983.
> One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian this
> is special because the domaine is owned by the Queen of Denmark and her
> husband, Prince Henrik.
>
> The 2002 was very closed, lots of tannines, nose very shy, some dark fruit.
> Mouthfeel was overpowering tannines. Charmless, in fact.
> The 1993 was comparatively speaking much more open. It had a lovely nose of
> black prunes and dried black olives - in fact, not unlike a Syrahdriven
> Rhone valley wine from a warmish year. Also a pepperiness, and event mint.
> It still had a lot of tannines, but a certain fruity sweetness which gave it
> both an accomodating feeling, while at the same time appearing to have
> several years to reach its top.
> The 1983 was even more reach in the nose, but perhaps at the same time
> tiring - the tannines ahd softened, and the sweetness was much more
> predominant. This too, had a lot of dark, dried fruit, but a certain
> shortness.
> The 1997 was opened late in the evening and I am sad to say, left no notes.
>
> If it is possible to cme to any conclusions from this paucity of data, it
> might be that a Cahors wine needs upwards of 15 years in the cellar to be
> approachable, and then will do much better with a meal with red meat or
> game. A hunter´s wine, as they say in France.
>
> Cheers
>
> Nils
> --
> Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Most Cahors today seems to be made in a somewhat modern style and has
little in common with the old "black" Cahors. From a commercial
standpoint this likely was necessary, because few would wait for an
old classic Cahors to age up to several decades - right or wrong, it
does not have the "star" reputation of say top Burgundy or Bordeaux.
And few, if any, of the growers would have the resources to age it
before release at a few decades of age.

Clos de Gamot was one of the few that kept classic Cahors alive in the
last century. I don't know how their recent vintages stack up. I had a
bottle of their 1937 a year or two ago, and I think I gave tasting
notes here. It was still quite drinkable and likely would last at
least several more years. It had thrown a large amount of very dark
sediment over the years. When young, you likely could not see through
the wine except using a very strong light. It reminded me a bit of
some Northern Italian wines. It had plenty of acids. The tannins were
fairly well resolved, but still quite apparent and somewhat dry. It
likely would be good with game, well hung if you like that sort of
thing. It likely could hold up to even roast mastodon, especially when
the wine is somewhat younger. Frozen mastedons still sometimes are
found in ice in Siberia and elsewhere, and wild animals sometimes eat
them. However, I fear that if I ate mastedon, I would soon be a guest
at the local hospital and have a stomach pump used on me :-) .

"Joseph Coulter" > skrev i meddelandet
. 97.136...
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Hello,
>> A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and
>> Xina) yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages
>> to find out when they are enjoyable - if ever.
>>
>> One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian
>> this is special because the domaine is owned by the Queen of Denmark
>> and her husband, Prince Henrik.
>>
> The wine is actually made by Georges Vigouroux owner of Chateau de
> Mercues,
> ok more properly the estate is managed by a company owned by G.V.
>
> Malbec is traditionally a big meat, steak kind of wine, break out some elk
> (oh I think you have a different name for it gulp) ok try caribou.


He, yes, we had a discussion concerning the difference between elk and moose
a year or so ago. "Elk" would be Alces alces, while caribou would hardly be
obtainable. Reindeer OTOH can be had for a small amount of money, year
round, even if it is frozen.
Roe has a very gamey taste (here in Sweden, at least), comparable to fallow
deer. It stood up magnificently to these (slightly) brooding beasts ...

Cheers

Nils


--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Salut/Hi Nils Gustaf Lindgren,

le/on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:26:23 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Hello,
>A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and Xina)
>yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages to find out
>when they are enjoyable - if ever.
>Self had made a cassoulet of game (roe buck) and provided three wines,
>Ch Theron 2002
>Ch Triguedina 1993
>Clos Du Peche de Jammes 1983.
>One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian this

An interesting choice of wines. Not those I'd have made to see how long it
can take for Cahors to come round. I rather agree with Emery's reaction to
your subject.

Cahors is in a total mess right now. Practically no one is prepared to let
it age the 10 to 15 years it needs. Btw, "Black" Cahors! hasn't seriously
existed since '52, when the frosts destroyed the vineyards. One or two guys
are re-releasing it, but that's more for the marketing people than to sell.

There are some perfectly palatable Cahors at very reasonable prices. I am
just about finishing a 10l wine box of 2004 Ch Latuc which cost me about €3
a litre and has been drunk to general acclaim. However, "serious" Cahors,
like Ch La Caminade Clos La Commanderie, or Ch La Greze, or Ch Prieuré de
Cénac (from Rigal) or Baldès top wine, Prince Probus, all deserves to be
treated with just as much respect (and aging) as a 3rd or 5th growth Medoc.
Jyst because it's cheaper doesn't mean it's less worthy, merely a better
vfm.

As for food matches. It's like any other wine, you need to know your wine
before you look to match it with food. Most Cahors is tannic, quite rough
and meaty. Just as you'd not serve a subtle elderly 25 or 40 years old Medoc
with a great big venison casserole, so you would be mad to serve a Cahors
with some plainly roast pork.

If you make a cassoulet, THAT'S the time to pull a Cahors, and just as it
would be sad never to have the dish, so it would be sad not to match it with
a rough and tumble red that cuts through the richness of the dish and is
softened by it!

Bon appetit
Ian
La Souvigne - France

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se
"Ian Hoare" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> Salut/Hi Nils Gustaf Lindgren,
>
> le/on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:26:23 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>Hello,
>>A select group of winos met at the home of the Dynamic Duo (self and Xina)
>>yesterday. The reason: test a few Cahors of different vintages to find out
>>when they are enjoyable - if ever.
>>Self had made a cassoulet of game (roe buck) and provided three wines,
>>Ch Theron 2002
>>Ch Triguedina 1993
>>Clos Du Peche de Jammes 1983.
>>One of the participants brought a Ch le Caix 1997 - to a Scandinavian this
>
> An interesting choice of wines. Not those I'd have made to see how long it
> can take for Cahors to come round. I rather agree with Emery's reaction to
> your subject.

Hello Ian,

Nice to hear your gentle voice, and I do mean it sincerely. I give in to
your and Emery´s greater experience, but I hope that my presentation was
held, tongoue firmly placed in cheek (a bit awkward, it ahs to be admitted).

The reason I choose the three wines was the usual and ignoble one - they
were available. I had got them (except for the Theron) at a fair price on
iDealWine, and, autumn beign game time in Sweden, thought it a lovely
project to present them in a sort of minivertical, perhaps a bit too
slanted.

>
> Cahors is in a total mess right now. Practically no one is prepared to let
> it age the 10 to 15 years it needs. Btw, "Black" Cahors! hasn't seriously
> existed since '52, when the frosts destroyed the vineyards. One or two
> guys
> are re-releasing it, but that's more for the marketing people than to
> sell.
>
> ... Baldès top wine, Prince Probus, all deserves to be
> treated with just as much respect (and aging) as a 3rd or 5th growth
> Medoc.

Hmmmm ... the label on the Triguedina also said Prince Probus. What
relation?


> If you make a cassoulet, THAT'S the time to pull a Cahors, and just as it
> would be sad never to have the dish, so it would be sad not to match it
> with
> a rough and tumble red that cuts through the richness of the dish and is
> softened by it!

Well - a cassoulet is what I did make, and it went very well with the wines
(I still obstinately cling to my opinion that the 2002 was closed and
charmless). A few left over drops in the bottlees also went well with a
Sunday elk and bacon cassoulet, and, lo and behold, the youngster had
mellowed and showed the same dried prunes and olives as the older ones.
Still very tannic though.

>
> Bon appetit

Thank you.

Please don't be a stranger, Ian.

Cheers

Nils

Salut/Hi Mike & Nils

le/on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:12:46 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare wrote:

>> with a great big venison casserole, so you would be mad to serve a Cahors
>> with some plainly roast pork.
>
>Absolutely. Tannin and fat mix to form a nasty powdery sensation on the
>palate, and there is no acidity to cut through all that fat. And Cahors
>is about the most tannic thing you can uncork, the very WORST wine you
>could ever open with pork roast. So far I follow.

Ah but that's not at all what I was thinking of. I must say I don't agree
with you over the fat business. My thought was that pork is actually quite a
delicate meat - when compared with lamb or beef or even a duck confit. So a
light, delicate meat, matched against a big bruising tannic wine will be
swamped by it in my view. Same would go for a chickum. I also can't agree
that they are lacking in acidity. That said I know that you like wines with
much higher levels of acidity than I do, so this might be part of the reason
behind our differences.

>Cher maître, I know the above combination is what is dictated by
>tradition, but like some other traditional pairings that are well known
>and followed not just by the general public but even by people that
>should know better (Sauternes and foie gras, dry champagne with sweet
>desserts), I shudder at the thought...

Well you know, it's not because it's traditional that I do it, but because
in my book it's good. Cassoulet, no matter whether it be from Carcassonne,
Castelnaudary or Toulouse, is very powerful in flavour - when I make it it's
not too fatty, as I cook out much of the fat from the salt belly and make my
own sausages with about 25-35% only. And then I drain off excess fat before
assembling the dish. Don't get me wrong, I'm no advocate of emasculating
dishes because they have fat, but beans absorb the stuff so well that you
can end up with a dish where the fat isn't in any sense obtrusive. Anyway,
it's a great big dish, and needs a great big wine. I'd happily drink La Nine
from JP Senat against it, or even experiment with a tougher Cote de Rhone.
But I LIKE tannic wines with fatty dishes, from cassoulet to confit.

>Would it not be better to serve a lively zingy low-tannin red from some
>exceptional Beaujolais village?

Not in my view, no. But isn't that what makes wine and food matching so
endlessly interesting? We both have a certain experience of it, yet can (in
good humour) entirely disagree.


>Anyhow, welcome back to the NG, we need you here!

You're most kind. Though as I said, it's not for very long. (and thanks also
to the kind words from my other friends here).
Bon appetit
Ian
La Souvigne - France

Ian Hoare > wrote in
:

> Ah but that's not at all what I was thinking of. I must say I don't
> agree with you over the fat business. My thought was that pork is
> actually quite a delicate meat - when compared with lamb or beef or
> even a duck confit. So a light, delicate meat, matched against a big
> bruising tannic wine will be swamped by it in my view. Same would go
> for a chickum.

Chicken ? I have in hand a glass of Argentine Malbec which I am about
to eat with leftover roast chicken. Escorihuela Gascon 2006 admittedly
not a tannic monster has em but is a fairly fruity expression of the
grape (also a QPR at @12 USD which given current exchange rates is cheap
anywhere else even Canada)

--
Joseph Coulter, cruises and vacations
www.josephcoulter.com

877 832 2021
904 631 8863 cell

Ian Hoare wrote:

>>Absolutely. Tannin and fat mix to form a nasty powdery sensation on the
>>palate, and there is no acidity to cut through all that fat. And Cahors
>>is about the most tannic thing you can uncork, the very WORST wine you
>>could ever open with pork roast. So far I follow.
>
>
> Ah but that's not at all what I was thinking of. I must say I don't agree
> with you over the fat business. My thought was that pork is actually quite a
> delicate meat - when compared with lamb or beef or even a duck confit.

You echo my own thoughts, Ian. I have always considered tannins to be
an asset when pairing fatty meats. That's why young Cabernet Sauvignon
works so well with grilled steaks, especially rare ones that haven't had
all their fat rendered. For my part, I've tested various wines with my
cassoulets and found that, yes, Cru Beaujolais and Aussie Shiraz are
passable (a 3 on the Hoare scale and incidentally two wines recommended
by H. Johnson for this purpose) but Madiran is a solid 4. I haven't
tried _young_ Madiran, but I suspect that, within reason, it would pair
reasonably well, too.

I've heard it rationalized that the astringent nature of younger tannins
is also what's reponsible for the affinity for fats: the polyphenols of
the tannin molecules actually bind the fats and help remove them from
the surface of the tongue, thereby cleansing the palate, if not the
bloodstream ;-)

So a
> light, delicate meat, matched against a big bruising tannic wine will be
> swamped by it in my view. Same would go for a chickum. I also can't agree
> that they are lacking in acidity. That said I know that you like wines with
> much higher levels of acidity than I do, so this might be part of the reason
> behind our differences.

Yes, roast pork to me calls for a powerhouse white or rosé. A lighter
Beaujolais might also work well with it, but then again I'll drink a
good Bojo with many different foods.


>
> Well you know, it's not because it's traditional that I do it, but because
> in my book it's good. Cassoulet, no matter whether it be from Carcassonne,
> Castelnaudary or Toulouse, is very powerful in flavour - when I make it it's
> not too fatty, as I cook out much of the fat from the salt belly and make my
> own sausages with about 25-35% only. And then I drain off excess fat before
> assembling the dish.

Hey! I thought that you didn't have a traditional cassoulet recipe...
Acquired one since 23 Jan 2003? <poke poke>

Bon apetit yourself,
Mark Lipton

(currently researching coq au vin recipes for a Fête de Bourgogne
planned for this weekend -- 3 '88 GCs on deck)

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:27 -0400, tu disais/you said:-


>Yes, roast pork to me calls for a powerhouse white or rosé. A lighter
>Beaujolais might also work well with it, but then again I'll drink a
>good Bojo with many different foods.

Luc de Conti has THE wine for roast pork. It's called "Jour des Tendres" and
is a pink made by saignée from his top reds, it then has 6 years in barrel.

>> Cassoulet, no matter whether it be from Carcassonne,
>> Castelnaudary or Toulouse, is very powerful in flavour


>Hey! I thought that you didn't have a traditional cassoulet recipe...
>Acquired one since 23 Jan 2003? <poke poke>
Yup.

>(currently researching coq au vin recipes for a Fête de Bourgogne
>planned for this weekend -- 3 '88 GCs on deck)

Got one of those too. Keep an eye on your Mbox.
Bon appetit
Ian
La Souvigne - France