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Hello
One of the daughters from this currently matrilinear vigneron in Alsace (in Kayserberg) visited one of Helsingborg's best restaurants (and, in fact, deemed among the ten best in Sweden, FWIW). Dinner was suitably divided between slightly molecular and traditionally spring related (pike perch, chicken, morells, asparagus, and a sort of blob that you could push around with the spon and when you bit into it it was filled with something slightly goey tasting of marshmallows). 1 Muscat Reserve 2006 While this had a fabulous Alsace Muscat nose, on palate it had a, to me, not pleasant bitterness, and lacked structure. 2 Riesling GC Schlossberg Cuv Se Catherine 2005 [c] Strawcolored [n] Marked TND, beeswax, honoung, very fresh [p] Aciditity in attack, slight fizz, good structure, a certain bitterness in the aftyertaste 3 Riesling GC Sclossberg Cuv Ste Catherine "L'Inédit" 2004 [c] Pale gold [n] TND, florality - honeysuckle?, candied lemon zest [p] Also with an acid attack, somewhat lighter in structure, resdiual sugar (26 g/l), and with the same bitter finish. Apparently, the second Riesling is only made in exceptional years when the grapes attain a very high maturity. My own reflection is that they should both profit from some serious cellar time - what they will be like in ten years I know not, but as they are, they appear young and undeveloped. 4 PG Cuv Ste Catherine 2006 [c] Straw with green highlights [n] oatmeal, apricots, orange zest [p] Acid attack, slight fizz, some RS with (paradoxically) a dry, rather elegant finish. 5 Pinot noir W 2005 [n] oak, red berries, vegetal notes, red flowers - dried roses? [p] spicy, cherries, oak, dry finish The cuvée W (W for Weinbach and "wood") is matured on barriques, one and two years old, obtained form a producer in Nuit-St-George. The nose of dried roses will induce me to forgive the oak, but I still consider Alsace PN as unsuited to oak, even in the comparartively small dosage this wine has received. 6 PG Altenbourgh VT 2005 [n] Honey, apples, saffron [p] Sweetness in the attack, fat and acidity, lots of fruit and generous length Easily the best wine of this dinner. Very good balance for a PG VT, an integration of acidity and sweetness. Altenbough is not a GC, it is a lieu-dite. 7 Gwz GC Furstentum VT 2005 [n] Touch of wormwood? Bitter orange, grape fruit and english roses. [p] A certain oilyness, sweet, little acidity, some bitterness on the finish, and a certain fieryness. During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for each wine, on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price list at home - however, they do not have one. I searched their web site (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any mention of anything as gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps slightly too refined in my never very humble opinion. OK, so some producers do not have a web site at all. These were our thoughts: 1 EU 0 (we wouldn't buy it) 2 EU 15 (no way is this going at under EU 20, but never mind) 3 As #1 4 EU 14 5 As #1 6 EU 22 7 EU 18 If this gives the impression of being slightly underwhelmed, weeeeeeell ... Cheers Nils |
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"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:
> During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for > each wine, on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price > list at home - however, they do not have one. I searched their > web site (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any > mention of anything as gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps > slightly too refined in my never very humble opinion. To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect something else from a top Alsace producer? M. |
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Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>> To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the >> homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne >> house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect >> something else from a top Alsace producer? >> > > Well, yes. Why do I? > AAMF, I looked into it, out of curiosity - Chapoutier has a a clear list of > prices, while Guigal has not. Hugel has a price list, Trimbach has not. Zind > Humbrecht apparently do not have a web site at all. Nor does Ostertag. > Marcel Deiss' web site is beautiful and extremely informative, including > where the grapes of each wine has been harvested - but does not contain a > price list. > Smith Haut Lafitte has a price list that you download. > Chave has no web site, while Delas has a hugely informative site that will > place the wine into a sensorial matrix, tell me about the terroir, the > yield, the respect of the terroir and so on - but not what price the wines > are. > I could go on. > My point being, if you feel that, as a producer, you want to inform > concerning your production, your philosophy, your lineage, your vineyards, > and show lots of pictures of the, admittedly often breathtaking, > surroundings of the vineyards (at least that is the case in Alsace, > Burgundy, and the Northern Rhone), then - why not a list of prices if you > sell off the cellar door? Provided, of course, that you do sell off the > cellar door. Drouhin and Jadot in Bourgogne do not and have no price list, > Coche-Bizouard (admittedly not in the top rank) do and have. > Perhaps Weinbach do not sell directly, on the domaine, I don't know. > What's your opinion? > Hi Nils, I think the French have a thing when it comes to talking about money generally, even more so when it comes to discussing the costs of "luxury goods." Perhaps this dates to the revolution. In the US or UK having a nice house or car is a sign of success; here it moves you up in the queue for the guillotine! ![]() So many beautiful properties are hidden behind rather high, insalubrious looking walls. When you have workmen over to discuss a potential project, they will never talk money at all, instead preferring to send a written estimate. Difficult to iterate when you're trying to see what will be possible in a fixed budget. Real estate is often listed without price, even when not particularly expensive. Even apartment rentals are frequently listed without price. If you have to ask... I think the assumption is that we all know the market, after all. I too find the lack of "transparency" in pricing annoying, but I think it's cultural and extends to any number of areas. -E |
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On Apr 14, 5:06�am, "Nils Gustaf Lindgren"
> wrote: > Hello > One of the daughters from this currently matrilinear vigneron in Alsace (in > Kayserberg) visited one of Helsingborg's best restaurants (and, in fact, > deemed among the ten best in Sweden, FWIW). Dinner was suitably divided > between slightly molecular and traditionally spring related (pike perch, > chicken, morells, asparagus, and a sort of blob that you could push around > with the spon and when you bit into it it was filled with something slightly > goey tasting of marshmallows). > 1 Muscat Reserve 2006 > While this had a fabulous Alsace Muscat nose, on palate it had a, to me, not > pleasant bitterness, and lacked structure. > 2 Riesling GC Schlossberg Cuv Se Catherine 2005 > [c] Strawcolored > [n] Marked TND, beeswax, honoung, very fresh > [p] Aciditity in attack, slight fizz, good structure, a certain bitterness > in the aftyertaste > > 3 Riesling GC Sclossberg Cuv Ste Catherine "L'In�dit" 2004 > [c] Pale gold > [n] TND, florality - honeysuckle?, candied lemon zest > [p] Also with an acid attack, somewhat lighter in structure, resdiual sugar > (26 g/l), and with the same bitter finish. > > Apparently, the second Riesling is only made in exceptional years when the > grapes attain a very high maturity. My own reflection is that they should > both profit from some serious cellar time - what they will be like in ten > years I know not, but as they are, they appear young and undeveloped. > > 4 PG Cuv Ste Catherine 2006 > [c] Straw with green highlights > [n] oatmeal, apricots, orange zest > [p] Acid attack, slight fizz, some RS with (paradoxically) a dry, rather > elegant finish. > > 5 Pinot noir W 2005 > [n] oak, red berries, vegetal notes, red flowers - dried roses? > [p] spicy, cherries, oak, dry finish > > The cuv�e W (W for Weinbach and "wood") is matured on barriques, one and two > years old, obtained form a producer in Nuit-St-George. > The nose of dried roses will induce me to forgive the oak, but I still > consider Alsace PN as unsuited to oak, even in the comparartively small > dosage this wine has received. > > 6 PG Altenbourgh VT 2005 > [n] Honey, apples, saffron > [p] Sweetness in the attack, fat and acidity, lots of fruit and generous > length > Easily the best wine of this dinner. Very good balance for a PG VT, an > integration of acidity and sweetness. > Altenbough is not a GC, it is a lieu-dite. > > 7 Gwz GC Furstentum VT 2005 > [n] Touch of wormwood? Bitter orange, grape fruit and english roses. > [p] A certain oilyness, sweet, little acidity, some bitterness on the > finish, �and a certain fieryness. > > During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for each wine, > on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price list at home - > however, they do not have one. I searched their web site > (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any mention of anything as > gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps slightly too refined in my never very > humble opinion. > OK, so some producers do not have a web site at all. > These were our thoughts: > 1 EU 0 (we wouldn't buy it) > 2 EU 15 (no way is this going at under EU 20, but never mind) > 3 As #1 > 4 EU 14 > 5 As #1 > 6 EU 22 > 7 EU 18 > > If this gives the impression of being slightly underwhelmed, weeeeeeell .... > > Cheers > > Nils I like Weinbach more than you seem to, but pricing keeps it out of my cellar. But they sell enough I doubt they need to sell ex-cellar, very popular. |
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>
> To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the > homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne > house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect > something else from a top Alsace producer? > Well, yes. Why do I? AAMF, I looked into it, out of curiosity - Chapoutier has a a clear list of prices, while Guigal has not. Hugel has a price list, Trimbach has not. Zind Humbrecht apparently do not have a web site at all. Nor does Ostertag. Marcel Deiss' web site is beautiful and extremely informative, including where the grapes of each wine has been harvested - but does not contain a price list. Smith Haut Lafitte has a price list that you download. Chave has no web site, while Delas has a hugely informative site that will place the wine into a sensorial matrix, tell me about the terroir, the yield, the respect of the terroir and so on - but not what price the wines are. I could go on. My point being, if you feel that, as a producer, you want to inform concerning your production, your philosophy, your lineage, your vineyards, and show lots of pictures of the, admittedly often breathtaking, surroundings of the vineyards (at least that is the case in Alsace, Burgundy, and the Northern Rhone), then - why not a list of prices if you sell off the cellar door? Provided, of course, that you do sell off the cellar door. Drouhin and Jadot in Bourgogne do not and have no price list, Coche-Bizouard (admittedly not in the top rank) do and have. Perhaps Weinbach do not sell directly, on the domaine, I don't know. What's your opinion? Cheers Nils |
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Hello Dale
I think the wines presented at this dinner were too young. Particularly the Rieslings. And no doubt you, and Michael, are right - this is one of the greatest producers in Alsace, lots of people agree to that. I have the same problem with Trimbach, if a problem it is. Saves me money, of course. Cheers Nils |
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"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:
> What's your opinion? That I never encountered price list on top producers' homepages. But thank you for pointing out that Chapoutier, Hugel, Deiss and SHL do have price lists. Didn't know that. Also don't know whether Faller sells ex-cellars to private customers. M. |
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"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote:
> And no doubt you, and Michael, are right - this is one of the > greatest producers in Alsace, lots of people agree to that. I > have the same problem with Trimbach, if a problem it is. Saves > me money, of course. Right you are. Then, otoh, I live in a country where many producers, especially from 2nd or 3rd rank, do deliver wine free of charge to Vienna. Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or two? M. |
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![]() "Michael Pronay" > skrev i meddelandet ... > "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote: > >> What's your opinion? > > That I never encountered price list on top producers' homepages. > > But thank you for pointing out that Chapoutier, Hugel, Deiss and > SHL do have price lists. Didn't know that. Also don't know whether > Faller sells ex-cellars to private customers. Sorry, I was unclear - Deiss did not have a price list, but their web site is very beautiful. Cheers Nils |
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![]() > Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or two? <big grin> Love to, but, not in the foreseeable future! The idea is tempting though ... you are not, perchance, heading in the direction of Sweden? Cheers Nils |
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On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:02:29 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote: >"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > wrote: > >> During the meal we discussed what we would be willing to pay for >> each wine, on the domaine. My thought was to look up their price >> list at home - however, they do not have one. I searched their >> web site (www.domaineweinbach.com) but it does not contain any >> mention of anything as gross as costs at purchase. Perhaps >> slightly too refined in my never very humble opinion. >To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the >homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne >house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect >something else from a top Alsace producer? Well I think - with respect - you are being a little disengenuous here. The aforementioned 1er cru classé don't sell direct to the public, so it would be silly to publish prices. I would be surprised if a Grande Marque Champagne did either. However, when I went to taste at the Fallers, I was able to buy from the domaine without any difficulty - other than the overweaning arrogance of the members of the family. So that's one à priori reason to publish a price list. The reason I say you're being disengenuous is that - in my opinion you know perfectly well that the REAL reason they don't publish their prices is for the same reason it's hard to find ANY prices online on manufacturers websites in France. The absence of recommended retail price is there to allow retailers to sell at any price they like, in my view. I've never been to a country where the dictum 'caveat emptor' was as true as it is in France. And what is REALLY sad is that many winemakers don't seem to see how much more they'd sell if they were open and upfront about their prices. -- All the best Fatty from Forges |
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IanH wrote:
> Well I think - with respect - you are being a little disengenuous > here. The aforementioned 1er cru classé don't sell direct to the > public, so it would be silly to publish prices. I would be surprised > if a Grande Marque Champagne did either. However, when I went to taste > at the Fallers, I was able to buy from the domaine without any > difficulty - other than the overweaning arrogance of the members of > the family. So that's one à priori reason to publish a price list. Good point, Ian. Few regions are as insulated from their customer base as are the Bordelais. [...] > And what is REALLY sad is that many winemakers don't seem to see how > much more they'd sell if they were open and upfront about their > prices. Well, perhaps the situation is a bit like that faced by the wine importer Kermit Lynch in the US: his retail store carries the _highest_ prices for his own imports. Why? Because, if he sold them for less, he'd never be able to sell his wines to the distributors who are his major customer as they'd view him as undercutting their sales. Since I know that vignerons in France sell their wines for less than they can be found at retail (a commendable and logical practice, by the by) they might feel constrained to not advertise that fact and thereby alienate the major outlet for their wines. Just a thought, Mark Lipton -- alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com |
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Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>>> Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or >>> two? >> <big grin> Love to, but, not in the foreseeable future! The >> idea is tempting though ... you are not, perchance, heading in >> the direction of Sweden? Not for the moment either ... :-( > Maybe for the grape harvest... :-) Nonono. I've done grape harvesting only once, maybe ine minutes during a press trip to Pape Clément, then recently acquired by Bernard Magrez. Must have been in September ... was it 1988? Can't recall exactly. I harvested one grape of sauvignon and immediately decided never ever even thinking about making my own wine, not even as a hobby, period. M. |
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IanH > wrote:
> However, when I went to taste at the Fallers, I was able to buy > from the domaine without any difficulty - other than the > overweaning arrogance of the members of the family. Very well put, Ian, especially the second part of the sentence. M. |
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