This question is slightly offtopic, but I consider the resident
readership more competent (and more pleasant to read) than the rabble in
rec.food.cooking. So he
If some of you happen to watch the "Top Chef" TV show (on Bravo
channel in the US), you will have noticed (well, I did that on
several different occasions the panel/judges deemed the lamb in the dish
overcooked. My question: is all of "haute cuisine" in agreement on that
point, or is there at least some faction that holds that longer cooking
is better for lamb?
In my ethnic background, there is no such thing as overcooked lamb;
the longer cooked the better. The ideal (rarely achieved in our modern
speeding lifestyle) is lamb cooked for hours on low heat, until it is so
tender that the meat falls off the bones by itself. By that time the
spices have had time to permeate the entire bulk and significantly
hidden the specific lamb smell. It is not that this way of preparation
is totally unheard of Stateside - I've had properly prepared lamb shank
in Virginia - but that was in a Greek restaurant.
To make the question more on topic - would the recommended wines
for the two styles of lamb preparation be the same, or different?
And finally, happy holidays to all!

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.

On Dec 25, 10:10*pm, Patok > wrote:
> * * *This question is slightly offtopic, but I consider the resident
> readership more competent (and more pleasant to read) than the rabble in
> rec.food.cooking. So he
> * * *If some of you happen to watch the "Top Chef" TV show (on Bravo
> channel in the US), you will have noticed (well, I did that on
> several different occasions the panel/judges deemed the lamb in the dish
> overcooked. My question: is all of "haute cuisine" in agreement on that
> point, or is there at least some faction that holds that longer cooking
> is better for lamb?
> * * *In my ethnic background, there is no such thing as overcooked lamb;
> the longer cooked the better. The ideal (rarely achieved in our modern
> speeding lifestyle) is lamb cooked for hours on low heat, until it is so
> tender that the meat falls off the bones by itself. By that time the
> spices have had time to permeate the entire bulk and significantly
> hidden the specific lamb smell. It is not that this way of preparation
> is totally unheard of Stateside - I've had properly prepared lamb shank
> in Virginia - but that was in a Greek restaurant.
> * * *To make the question more on topic - would the recommended wines
> for the two styles of lamb preparation be the same, or different?

When tender cuts of lamb, beef, and many red meats are roasted, many
usually prefer the meat to be rare or medium rare. Many like the taste
of such prime cuts of meat without much seasoning other than salt,
pepper and perhaps a touch of herbs. If a stronger seasoning is
desired, soaking in a marinade often is used. However there are many
dishes that use slow cooking such as braising. Often the meat is
rapidly browned a bit at first to add flavor. The braising liquid can
contain many additions such as wine, herbs and spices etc. For
instance, ribs are often braised until they are tender enough to fall
off of the bone, and and often are highly seasoned or a highly
seasoned sauce is added at the end. Braising is often a way to cook
meat cuts that are not so tender.

If you are roasting a rack of tender young lamb, it is likely to dry
out somewhat if overcooked, so many will want the roasting to stop at
the rare or medium rare point. If the meat is not-so-tender, it can be
too tough if roasted, so a slow cooking method is likely to work
better, and one can add spices, herbs, etc to flavor the meat as
desired.

What wine you serve would depend greatly on what flavors you add to
the meat. Many like a red Bordeaux with roast lamb. However a slow
cooked lamb curry full of strong spices, herbs, and hot peppers would
overpower a red Bordeaux and go best with a very full red wine, a few
whites with very strong character, or even beer. It seems that dishes
often work best if the meat is either cooked rapidly and served when
still rare or medium rare, or the meat is cooked slowly a very long
time so it becomes very tender.

On Dec 26, 12:11�am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Dec 25, 10:10�pm, Patok > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > � � �This question is slightly offtopic, but I consider the resident
> > readership more competent (and more pleasant to read) than the rabble in
> > rec.food.cooking. So he
> > � � �If some of you happen to watch the "Top Chef" TV show (on Bravo
> > channel in the US), you will have noticed (well, I did that on
> > several different occasions the panel/judges deemed the lamb in the dish
> > overcooked. My question: is all of "haute cuisine" in agreement on that
> > point, or is there at least some faction that holds that longer cooking
> > is better for lamb?
> > � � �In my ethnic background, there is no such thing as overcooked lamb;
> > the longer cooked the better. The ideal (rarely achieved in our modern
> > speeding lifestyle) is lamb cooked for hours on low heat, until it is so
> > tender that the meat falls off the bones by itself. By that time the
> > spices have had time to permeate the entire bulk and significantly
> > hidden the specific lamb smell. It is not that this way of preparation
> > is totally unheard of Stateside - I've had properly prepared lamb shank
> > in Virginia - but that was in a Greek restaurant.
> > � � �To make the question more on topic - would the recommended wines
> > for the two styles of lamb preparation be the same, or different?
>
> When tender cuts of lamb, beef, and many red meats are roasted, many
> usually prefer the meat to be rare or medium rare. Many like the taste
> of such prime cuts of meat without much seasoning other than salt,
> pepper and perhaps a touch of herbs. If a stronger seasoning is
> desired, soaking in a marinade often is used. However there are many
> dishes that use slow cooking such as braising. Often the meat is
> rapidly browned a bit at first to add flavor. The braising liquid can
> contain many additions such as wine, herbs and spices etc. For
> instance, ribs are often braised until they are tender enough to fall
> off of the bone, and and often are highly seasoned or a highly
> seasoned sauce is added at the end. Braising is often a way to cook
> meat cuts that are not so tender.
>
> If you are roasting a rack of tender young lamb, it is likely to dry
> out somewhat if overcooked, so many will want the roasting to stop at
> the rare or medium rare point. If the meat is not-so-tender, it can be
> too tough if roasted, so a slow cooking method is likely to work
> better, and one can add spices, herbs, etc to flavor the meat as
> desired.
>
> What wine you serve would depend greatly on what flavors you add to
> the meat. Many like a red Bordeaux with roast lamb. However a slow
> cooked lamb curry full of strong spices, herbs, and hot peppers would
> overpower a red Bordeaux and go best with a very full red wine, a few
> whites with very strong character, or even beer. It seems that dishes
> often work best if the meat is either cooked rapidly and served when
> still rare or medium rare, or the meat is cooked slowly a very long
> time so it becomes very tender.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Great reply. Don't know which I would like less, cooked through rack
of lamb, or rare braised shoulder. Hope never to find out.
Different cuts, different treatments (and different wines)

"Patok" in ...
> ... I consider the resident readership more competent
> (and more pleasant to read) than the rabble in rec.food.cooking

[Historical note: This newsgroup derives originally from rec.food.cooking,
though the spin-off was some time ago and not everyone now active (on either
newsgroup) remembers it. At the time, RFC was called by its original name
net.cooks. More below.*]

> [Edited:] [On] "Top Chef" TV show in the US, on several
> different occasions the panel/judges deemed the lamb in the
> dish overcooked. My question: is all of "haute cuisine" in
> agreement on that point, or is there at least some faction that
> holds that longer cooking is better for lamb? / In my ethnic
> background, there is no such thing as overcooked lamb;
> the longer cooked the better. The ideal ... is lamb cooked for
> hours on low heat, until it is so tender that the meat falls
> off the bones by itself. By that time the spices ... permeate ...
> I've had properly prepared lamb shank ... in a Greek restaurant.

Patok, I saw cwd and Dale already answer eloquently. I'll emphasize: Your
question has context you didn't mention explicitly, which may have been
clear in the TV shows (which I didn't see). There are different kinds of
lamb dishes, just as with other meats. A braise, e.g. with lamb shank,
naturally is long-cooked. Some lamb dishes I've seen are quick-cooked but
"well done" -- using thinly sliced lamb (Chinese stir-fries; an Indian dish
I've made where hot fried onions cook the lamb on contact and turmeric
seasons it). Roast lamb is a specialty already cited, in the US often
cooked more than comparable roasts of beef.

That still leaves other lamb dishes where longer cooking isn't always
thought better. Example: One of the best meat dishes I experienced as a
child is very common around the Mediterranean basin region. My father liked
to make it. Cubes of tender lamb marinated overnight or so in a simple
vinaigrette sauce of olive oil, vinegar and/or lemon juice, crushed garlic,
oregano, salt, or whatever. [There's your flavor infusion.] String cubes
on a skewer alternating with chunks of suitable vegetables (mushrooms, bell
peppers, onions, etc.); grill over charcoal -- specifically charcoal -- or
in a pinch, roast in a fast oven. Kebabs are at their most exquisite and
tender when the meat not cooked too long. It typically is pink inside, but
not red (aka "raw" aka "rare" aka "bloody" depending on where you come
from). Likewise, thin lamb chops: the central Asian "dupiaza" or their
relatives in other countries -- rubbed with herbs or marinade -- perfect
when cooked hot and fast, but still tender. [This is making me hungry.]

As I didn't see the TV shows, but have seen many lamb dishes, that's what
came to mind immediately from your question.

Cheers -- Max


* More historical trivia: Formation of a wines newsgroup (and thereby
public Internet wine fora) began from this proposal:
|
| Is there interest in a wine rating news group, possibly
| a subgroup of net.cooks (what about net.cooks.wine or
| net.drunks)? In particular, I would be interested in tasting
| experiences, ratings of value (defined as merit divided
| by price), availability, and any other spiritous information.

(Editor's note: At the time, there was no general US understanding of what
"rating" meant. The several wine newsletters used diverse formats, a
"100-point" scale was rare and years away from frequent use, most US wine
geeks had not yet heard of Robert Parker, etc.)

Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:

> Max Hauser wrote:
>> As I didn't see the TV shows, but have seen many lamb dishes, that's
>> what came to mind immediately from your question.
>
> A good recipe here in France is 7-hour lamb.


I would not take "Top Chef" as a faithful source of information on
cooking. It is all about the show, not about the food. I must say that
it is entertaining to see how the jury humilliates the contestants
anyway.

I strongly suggest getting a copy of Harold McGee's "On food and
cooking" in which there is a great explanation of the best cooking
methods for different cuts of meat, depending on the constitution
(fibers, colagen) of each cut.

I make a very good roast beef (with faux fillet) that I marinate for 24
hours (white wine, spices, salt) and put for six to seven hours in my
domestic oven, with the thermostat set at 70ºC.(158 Fahrenheit). After
the six hours, all the piece is exactly at 62ºC (143 Fahrenheit), which
means that I had to learn how to calibrate my oven. Then I usually grill
it at the highest temperature to get some Maillard reactions on the
outside and to kill the bacteria present in the two first milimeters of
every meat cut.

The marinating is a substitute for brining, which by osmosis allows the
salt to get into the center of a large cut of meat.

About lamb, it is quite tipical in Spain to roast it very slowly for
several hours. But also to grill baby lamb chops.

The fact is that overcooking is not really a matter of time of cooking.
It is a matter of temperature the meat reaches. You can overcook a piece
of meat in five minutes if it reaches 70ºC (158 Farenheit) and not
overcook a piece of meat in seven hours that does not get past 62ºC (143
Fahrenheit).

All the best,

s.

Hi Patok

On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:10:03 -0500, Patok >
wrote:

> If some of you happen to watch the "Top Chef" TV show (on Bravo
>channel in the US), you will have noticed (well, I did that on
Nope, sorry, because I live on the other side of the atlantic.
However, that doesn't stop me having a opinion on how to cook lamb.

I live in France and I have to say that I find the prevailing fashion
where I live of serving roast lamb as rare as "blue" beef (with the
meat still having the texture and flavour of raw meat, barely warm) to
result in something inedible. However I do like my roast leg of lamb
still to have a pink colour near the bone, and for the juices to run
reddish rather than golden, especially for french dishes, I tend to
cook english lamb dishes slightly longer as that's the habit in the UK
and with somewhat older lamb, I feel it suits it better.

That said, there are many, many dishes that I cook where my lamb is
cooked till very very tender, falling off the bone, and find that
delicious too.

In fact I'd say that lamb has a completely diffierent character
depending upon how you cook it. But I hesitate (as do the others here)
to say "this is right" or "that is better"

As for wines. The simpler the lamb is cooked, the cleaner and more
austere the wine should be, in my view. So for a plain roast leg of
lamb I find the perfect complement is a Bordeaux from the Medoc. If
the lamb is stuffed or braised till just cooked, then I want my wine
to be a bit fuller too, and would look to a wine with a greater Merlot
content, a st Emilion or Pomerol, or a top Bergerac. If I were serving
a long slow braise, with the meat falling off the bone, then I'd look
to yet a fuller wine, and might even think in terms of an old Malbec,
like a 15 year old Cahors from a top grower.

As for the ultimate in simple... grilled lamb chops, then I love a
gorgeous Bergerac.

> My question: is all of "haute cuisine" in agreement on that
>point, or is there at least some faction that holds that longer cooking
>is better for lamb?

And my answer is that I care very little what Haute cuisine says or
does. I don't really care where they are going, I will continue to
eat and drink as it pleases me.

And season's greetings to you.