Mark hosted *SOBER last night, and put forth an interesting theme. He
told us every flight pair involved a couple of wines, one of which
could have been bottled as the other. Ok!

He provided a nice spread of cheeses, meats, and shrimp and then a
main course of lemon-accented lamb stew.

He had asked everyone to bring a Champagne glass, a white wine glass,
and 4 red wine glasses. As a warmup, he served the wine #1. the Mumm
de Cramant Champagne, with everyone getting pours in both their flute
and white wine glass, to compare. If I had known the plan, I would
have brought a standard flute, but had brought my favorite Champagne
stem, the Zalto Denk'Art (I only have the one, thanks Emily). I like
it because it seems to have the best features of a flute and a
standard stem, no surprise I preferred it. But actually the majority
of the table favored their flutes to the white glasses- the white
opened the nose well, but most seemed to prefer the flute for the
palate (and as one said. " it's better for the bubbles- and otherwise
what's the point"). Nice bubbly, crisp but with a rather creamy
texture, sweet apple fruit with just a hint of yeast. B+

(I'm just writing what I wrote at the time, somewhat embarrassing at
points)

Wine #2- Sweet cab fruit, lead filings, tannic. Young and hard,
everyone is in young Bdx. Not especially appealing, but more open than
it's flightmate. B-

Wine # 3- tighter, more earthy, redder fruit. More of a sense of
underlying complexity. B-/B

Turns out they're components of the same wine!
#2 2006 Brane Cantenac (Margaux) barrel sample in Slovenian oak.
#3 2006 Brane Cantenac in French oak

OK, got us good.
Next flight also got quickly narrowed to young Bordeaux

Wine #4- Sweet fruit, lush texture, earth and oak. A bit of tobacco. I
like this, though some others don't. B+

Wine #5- Also sweet fruit, I think a bit shorter on finish, pleasant
but not compelling. B/B-

#4 2004 Ch.Palmer (Margaux)
#5 X1Xth Century Blend by Palmer*(experiment with 15% Hermitage
added )

Next we did a flight, were told that 6 & 7 are paired, as are 8 & 9

Wine #6- from cherries and earth on nose I thought this was Burgundy,
but group settles on claret again. Herbs and tobacco over red fruit,
delicate, maybe a tad past its prime. I'm still not totally convinced
it's Bdx, but with Mark's parameters I guess it is, since #7 is pretty
clearly claret. B

Wine #7- more vigorous, red berries and currants, licorice, cigarbox,
maybe just a hint of barnyard. Earthy delicious a pointe claret. A-

Wine #8- dense tannic and sweet, black berry fruit, herbs, I'm
thinking modern Cote Rotie. John says he gets a marijuana note,
between that and knowing Mark's cellar guesses Thackrey. B+

Wine #9- pretty similar, more spicy than herby, I prefer # 8 by a
hair. B+/B
****
#6**1979 Ch. du Tertre (Margaux)- 1/2 a magnum, decanted few hours
#7 1979 *Ch. du Tertre -other half, put into a bottle and then re-
corked
# 8 1995 Sean Thackrey “Orion” 1/2 a magnum, decanted few hours
#9 1995 Sean Thackrey “Orion”-other half, put into a bottle and then
re-corked

Got us!

(next flight was out of order, based on Mark's feeling of which needed
more air, I'm sticking to numbers on decanters)

Wine #12- some tannins, sweet ripe red fruit, a little earth. B/B+

Wine #13 - floral nose, big berry fruit, earth and a little sweat. I
also wrote tar, but I think that was after a couple people had
declared them to be Barolo (close). Structured but quite nice now,
although some others think in awkward stage. A-/A
*
# 12 `990 Giacosa Barbaresco Riserva (red label)
#13 Giacosa Barbaresco Santa Stefano Riserva (red label) *

Last flight
Wine #10- cassis and some tannin, fairly acidic, somewhat run of the
mill Bdx. B

Wine #11- really tannic, some cassis and blackberry fruit, big but
doesn't seem that concentrated (I'm shocked when revealed),. young but
not especially going anywhere. B

#10**Clos du Marquis 1986
#11 Ch. Leoville Las Cases 1986

Fun night, even if I got fooled some (ok, most) of the time!*Thanks
Mark.

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.
*

On Jan 21, 9:16*am, DaleW > wrote:
> Mark hosted *SOBER last night, and put forth an interesting theme. He
> told us every flight pair involved a couple of wines, one of which
> could have been bottled as the other. Ok!
>
> He provided a nice spread of cheeses, meats, and shrimp and then a
> main course of lemon-accented lamb stew.
>
> He had asked everyone to bring a Champagne glass, a white wine glass,
> and 4 red wine glasses. As a warmup, he served the wine #1. the Mumm
> de Cramant Champagne, with everyone getting pours in both their flute
> and white wine glass, to compare. If I had known the plan, I would
> have brought a standard flute, but had brought my favorite Champagne
> stem, the Zalto Denk'Art (I only have the one, thanks Emily). I like
> it because it seems to have the best features of a flute and a
> standard stem, no surprise I preferred it. But actually the majority
> of the table favored their flutes to the white glasses- the white
> opened the nose well, but most seemed to prefer the flute for the
> palate (and as one said. " it's better for the bubbles- and otherwise
> what's the point"). Nice bubbly, crisp but with a rather creamy
> texture, sweet apple fruit with just a hint of yeast. B+
>
> (I'm just writing what I wrote at the time, somewhat embarrassing at
> points)
>
> Wine #2- Sweet cab fruit, lead filings, tannic. Young and hard,
> everyone is in young Bdx. Not especially appealing, but more open than
> it's flightmate. B-
>
> Wine # 3- tighter, more earthy, redder fruit. More of a sense of
> underlying complexity. B-/B
>
> Turns out they're components of the same wine!
> #2 2006 Brane Cantenac (Margaux) barrel sample in Slovenian oak.
> #3 2006 Brane Cantenac in French oak
>
> OK, got us good.
> Next flight also got quickly narrowed to young Bordeaux
>
> Wine #4- Sweet fruit, lush texture, earth and oak. A bit of tobacco. I
> like this, though some others don't. B+
>
> Wine #5- Also sweet fruit, I think a bit shorter on finish, pleasant
> but not compelling. B/B-
>
> #4 2004 Ch.Palmer (Margaux)
> #5 X1Xth Century Blend by Palmer*(experiment with 15% Hermitage
> added )
>
> Next we did a flight, were told that 6 & 7 are paired, as are 8 & 9
>
> Wine #6- from cherries and earth on nose I thought this was Burgundy,
> but group settles on claret again. Herbs and tobacco over red fruit,
> delicate, maybe a tad past its prime. I'm still not totally convinced
> it's Bdx, but with Mark's parameters I guess it is, since #7 is pretty
> clearly claret. B
>
> Wine #7- more vigorous, red berries and currants, licorice, cigarbox,
> maybe just a hint of barnyard. Earthy delicious a pointe claret. A-
>
> Wine #8- dense tannic and sweet, black berry fruit, herbs, I'm
> thinking modern Cote Rotie. John says he gets a marijuana note,
> between that and knowing Mark's cellar guesses Thackrey. B+
>
> Wine #9- pretty similar, more spicy than herby, I prefer # 8 by a
> hair. B+/B
> ****
> #6**1979 Ch. du Tertre (Margaux)- 1/2 a magnum, decanted few hours
> #7 1979 *Ch. du Tertre -other half, put into a bottle and then re-
> corked
> # 8 1995 Sean Thackrey “Orion” 1/2 a magnum, decanted few hours
> #9 1995 Sean Thackrey “Orion”-other half, put into a bottle and then
> re-corked
>
> Got us!
>
> (next flight was out of order, based on Mark's feeling of which needed
> more air, I'm sticking to numbers on decanters)
>
> Wine #12- some tannins, sweet ripe red fruit, a little earth. B/B+
>
> Wine #13 - floral nose, big berry fruit, earth and a little sweat. I
> also wrote tar, but I think that was after a couple people had
> declared them to be Barolo (close). Structured but quite nice now,
> although some others think in awkward stage. A-/A
> *
> # 12 `990 Giacosa Barbaresco *Riserva (red label)
> #13 Giacosa Barbaresco Santa Stefano *Riserva *(red label) *
>
> Last flight
> Wine #10- cassis and some tannin, fairly acidic, somewhat run of the
> mill Bdx. B
>
> Wine #11- really tannic, some cassis and blackberry fruit, big but
> doesn't seem that concentrated (I'm shocked when revealed),. young but
> not especially going anywhere. B
>
> #10**Clos du Marquis 1986
> #11 Ch. Leoville Las Cases 1986
>
> Fun night, even if I got fooled some (ok, most) of the time!*Thanks
> Mark.
>
> Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
> wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
> drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
> promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.
> *

oops, screwed up noting the Giacosas, both 1990

DaleW wrote:

> (I'm just writing what I wrote at the time, somewhat embarrassing at
> points)
>

I don't see why you should feel embarrassed about these notes, Dale.
I'm sure that your attention was more focused on the wines than in
writing down your impressions. I just appreciate getting a vicarious
sense of this marvelous experience.

> Wine #2- Sweet cab fruit, lead filings, tannic. Young and hard,
> everyone is in young Bdx. Not especially appealing, but more open than
> it's flightmate. B-

Now, I just have to ask: "lead filings"??? Is this pencil lead or
something different? Were you chewing on lead in your misspent youth? ;-)

>
> Wine # 3- tighter, more earthy, redder fruit. More of a sense of
> underlying complexity. B-/B
>
> Turns out they're components of the same wine!
> #2 2006 Brane Cantenac (Margaux) barrel sample in Slovenian oak.
> #3 2006 Brane Cantenac in French oak

Truly fascinating experiment. So the French oak seems to have imparted
more tannin and have had a tighter grain than the Slavonian oak (which
is what I assume you meant). And how did Mark Golodetz get his hands on
these? Were they hand-carried back from the Chateau? (Having a
contributing editor to Wine Enthusiast in your tasting group does have
its perks, I see :P)


> #5 X1Xth Century Blend by Palmer (experiment with 15% Hermitage
> added )

How was this wine labeled? VdP? VdT? Just curious. Given the
historical role of Hermitage for doctoring Bordeaux, I would have
expected the blend to be beefier than you found. Perhaps the changing
nature of Bordeaux from the 19th Century to today has rendered the
practice moot.


> Wine #8- dense tannic and sweet, black berry fruit, herbs, I'm
> thinking modern Cote Rotie. John says he gets a marijuana note,
> between that and knowing Mark's cellar guesses Thackrey. B+

So Sean Thackrey smokes doobs in the cellar? ;-)

> Wine #11- really tannic, some cassis and blackberry fruit, big but
> doesn't seem that concentrated (I'm shocked when revealed),. young but
> not especially going anywhere. B

Yeah, I'm shocked, too. Was '86 an off year for LLC? or did SOBER
conclude that you had an off bottle?

What a fascinating lineup of wines, Dale. The SOBER formula really
shines with people like Mark Golodetz in the group, you lucky dog.

Enviously yours,
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Jan 21, 10:57�am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
> I don't see why you should feel embarrassed about these notes, Dale.
> I'm sure that your attention was more focused on the wines than in
> writing down your impressions. �I just appreciate getting a vicarious
> sense of this marvelous experience.

Well, thinking tht the 2 du Tertre seemed like different regions is a
bit embarassing!

>
> Now, I just have to ask: "lead filings"??? Is this pencil lead or
> something different? �Were you chewing on lead in your misspent youth? ;-)

Hey, I just wrote it! I think I was thinking of lead pencil and steel
filings, and somehow ended up in middle

>
> Truly fascinating experiment. �So the French oak seems to have imparted
> more tannin and have had a tighter grain than the Slavonian oak (which
> is what I assume you meant). �And how did Mark Golodetz get his hands on
> these? �Were they hand-carried back from the Chateau? (Having a
> contributing editor to Wine Enthusiast in your tasting group does have
> its perks, I see :P)

Actually, I have no idea which might have the tighter grain, though
one would think the tighter grain would impart less tannin and oak
flavors. By tighter I just meant "less open" as the wine on the whole,
nothing especially about the oak treatment.

I didn't hear where he got the samples, unsure if on trip to Bdx (he
goes annually) or from rep here, he knows a lot of chateau owners. One
of the funner tastings (a charity dinner for my group, not a SOBER
event) was the components of the '70 de Pez- the CS, CF, and Merlot
separately, plus the final blend

>
> > #5 X1Xth Century Blend by Palmer (experiment with 15% Hermitage
> > added )
>
> How was this wine labeled? �VdP? �VdT? Just curious. �Given the
> historical role of Hermitage for doctoring Bordeaux, I would have
> expected the blend to be beefier than you found. �Perhaps the changing
> nature of Bordeaux from the 19th Century to today has rendered the
> practice moot.

Vin de Table de France, NV. Label is gold on black but no mention of
Palmer in the large print.
The rest of the mix is 2004 Palmer
>
> Yeah, I'm shocked, too. �Was '86 an off year for LLC? �or did SOBER
> conclude that you had an off bottle?

I think Parker gave the '86 LLC a 100 recently (probably HG, think
official score is 98). Bottle just seemed undeveloped, not off.

Thanks for reading

On Jan 21, 9:57*am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> DaleW wrote:

> > Wine #8- dense tannic and sweet, black berry fruit, herbs, I'm
> > thinking modern Cote Rotie. John says he gets a marijuana note,
> > between that and knowing Mark's cellar guesses Thackrey. B+
>
> So Sean Thackrey smokes doobs in the cellar? ;-)

I once read about the start of Sean Thackrey wine making many years
ago. Unfortunately I can not find the article now. The best I remember
Sean was a member of the artistic scene in San Francisco back in the
flower power or not long after era. He moved to a northern coastal
area that was populated by mostly perhaps the most liberal people in
the US. Some people reffered to it as an old hippie graveyard. Sean
was interested in huge, ultra concentrated wines, and many of his
early wine making efforts were concerned with the more intense Rhone
types of grapes. He did very little to the wine. Instead of a cellar,
he had the casks in his yard, but the area was quite cool. He made
some wines as huge as the likes of some from Martin Ray, David Bruce,
and others of the era who often made huge wines that were nearly black
when young and loaded with tannins and often alcohol. Sean has quite a
few years on him by now, so perhaps his wines have tamed down a bit
since the early days just as have the wines of David Bruce. In the
early days of Sean's wine making, the whole region where he lived
likely smelled of both fresh and burning cannabis, and I doubt if it
was of the kind used to produce hemp fiber.