A friend has asked me to come up with wine suggestions for a dinner he's
putting together for a charity auction. I've got some ideas, but I
figured there's so much good knowledge in this NG that I'd see if I
could take advantage of it. He wants to use only Oregon wines, so I
don't really expect specifics (unless you have them). More to the
point, what I'm looking for are thoughts with regards to varietals and
particular characteristics that would make sense. Here's the sample
menu (with my meager wine thoughts).

Appetizer
Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
(Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)

Soup
Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
(Same wine as above?)

Pasta
Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
(Pinot Gris)

Fish
Shrimp "Cocktails" with Bloody Mary Granita
(Same wine as above?)

Entrée
Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
(Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)

Salad
Blood Orange and Root Vegetable Salad
(No wine.)

Cheese
Assorted Oregon Farmstead Cheeses
(Don't know the cheeses. Assorted Oregon artisanal cheeses. And I
don't know much about cheese/wine pairings.)

Desert
Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries
(Late harvest Gewuerztraminer or Riesling. [_Maybe_ a LH Sauvignon
Blanc.])

Well, there you have it. Any and all thoughts gratefully accepted.

Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
- Mark Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Roy, a few comments:

In article >, Roy >
writes:

>
>Soup
>Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
>(Same wine as above?)
>
As usual, for me, nothing (or mineral water) with soup, or let guests sip
whatever they already have.


>
>Entrée
>Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
>(Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
>Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
>for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)
>
While I always first think of Bordeaux varietals with lamb, a hefty PN can do
the trick (assuming the couscous salad isn't a clash). I'd just think big here-
not where you want a delicate PN. Something like St. Innocent Brickhouse (or
Beaux Frères if you have the bucks) from a good vintage. And you're right,
mushrooms would help/

>Salad
>Blood Orange and Root Vegetable Salad
>(No wine.)
thank god!

>
>Cheese
>Assorted Oregon Farmstead Cheeses
>(Don't know the cheeses. Assorted Oregon artisanal cheeses. And I
>don't know much about cheese/wine pairings.)
>
Impossible to match unknown cheeses. As a general rule, I find (contrary to
what I thought I knew years ago) whites match with more cheeses than red. And
ones with a bit of residual sugar sometimes bridge a gap.

Hopefully others will have more to offer. Please report!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

ok, i'll give it a swing:

>
> Appetizer
> Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
> (Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)

Here I would suggest off-dry or even slightly sweet. Not heavy sweet,
though. Think more aperitif. Off the cuff, without naming a
specific wine, I'd say Gewurtztraminer.

> Soup
> Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
> (Same wine as above?)

And then here I would say dry. Too bad they don't have Gruner
Veltliner in Oregon. Could have been nice with that dill & crab
combo.

>
> Pasta
> Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
> (Pinot Gris)

If this came just before the lamb, I would make the switch to red wine
at this point. But the next course throws me off.

>
> Fish
> Shrimp "Cocktails" with Bloody Mary Granita
> (Same wine as above?)

It seems odd to go from Gazpacho with crab, then to earthy rich pasta
in the butter/sage, and back out to what is essentially shellfish &
cold tomatoes again. Am I being totally square and unimaginative?

>
> Entrée
> Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
> (Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
> Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
> for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)

Oregon does have some powerful Pinots. Someone will surely have a
good suggestion for which one.

>
> Salad
> Blood Orange and Root Vegetable Salad
> (No wine.)

No wine?!?! Perish the thought. Surely somebody will have a good idea
for this. The blood orange makes me think sweet, but it depends which
root vegetables and what the salad is dressed with. Orange and
balsamic work well with something sweetish, but then you're heading
into sweet wines with 3 courses. Which I totally endorse, by the way.
If the 3 sweeties are from different varietals, you can do some really
interesting pairings.

>
> Cheese
> Assorted Oregon Farmstead Cheeses
> (Don't know the cheeses. Assorted Oregon artisanal cheeses. And I
> don't know much about cheese/wine pairings.)

Go with the late harvest starting here. So great with strong or spicy
cheeses, especially blue-veined ones.

>
> Desert
> Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries
> (Late harvest Gewuerztraminer or Riesling. [_Maybe_ a LH Sauvignon
> Blanc.])
>

And please keep in mind that I am, by no stretch of the imagination, a
food & wine pairing expert!

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roy" >
> Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:01 AM
> Subject: Wine thoughts for dinner menu?
>
>
> > A friend has asked me to come up with wine suggestions for a dinner he's
> > putting together for a charity auction. I've got some ideas, but I
> > figured there's so much good knowledge in this NG that I'd see if I
> > could take advantage of it. He wants to use only Oregon wines, so I
> > don't really expect specifics (unless you have them). More to the
> > point, what I'm looking for are thoughts with regards to varietals and
> > particular characteristics that would make sense. Here's the sample
> > menu (with my meager wine thoughts).
> >
>
> >
> > Fish
> > Shrimp "Cocktails" with Bloody Mary Granita
> > (Same wine as above?)

What about making this the 'cleansing' course before the main & going with
something sparkelling? (Argyle Brut?)

> > Entrée
> > Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
> > (Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
> > Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
> > for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)

I know Oregon produces a few Merlots... Can't say I've tried them, but
would any have the chops (pun intended) to stand up to this dish?

I don't claim to be an expert myself. hope this helps...
Mathew

Salut/Hi Roy,

GREAT fun menu, though a difficult one for wine, IMO.

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:01:36 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Appetizer
>Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
>(Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)

How hot and dominant's the chilpotle going to be? If VERY mild, I'd look to
a rosé. A hot glaze is horrible for wine. Maybe an off dry riesling, though
don't look for a good marriage, merely survival.

Hey, just thought. It's not from Oregon, but a dry sherry might be quite
good here.

>Soup
>Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
>(Same wine as above?)

Well, like Dale, I don't usually serve wine with soup, but I'd be happy to
let people continue with the sherry.

>Pasta
>Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
>(Pinot Gris)

I have difficulty in imagining the tastes here. Butternut is (from my vague
memory of the stuff) pretty bland, as is pasta in itself, and the sauce is
either going to be quite bland, or else dominated by sage, which can't be
said to be hugely wine friendly either. This is the only course which I
can't begin to get enthusiastic over, especially after the soup.


>Fish
>Shrimp "Cocktails" with Bloody Mary Granita

This looks interesting as a combination. Is there alcohol in the Granita?
and how much tabasco will there be? I'd look to a "fresh-ish" kind of wine.
Perhaps a Sauvignon Blanc, if you get one with a good balancing acidity. I
wonder if Lord St Helier has any ideas on this as it could almost be a New
Zealand-ish kind of dish.

>Entrée
>Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad

Hot chops and cold salad? (I''m not very up on Israeli cooking, but I
thought couscous was from Muslim North Africa and that in the Eastern Med
one used Bulghur (cracked wheat) for things like Tabbouleh.)

Interesting challenge. Get him to season the salad lightly, and marinade the
chops in red wine and olive oil before grilling them and you could well
serve an Oregon Pinot. I like your idea of mushrooms.


>Salad
>Blood Orange and Root Vegetable Salad
>(No wine.)

That's HOW many salads? (Gazpacho is a "salad soup", the shrimps are almost
served as a salad, then salad with the chops and a salad course?)
Interesting and an interesting menu, but may I VERY tentatively suggest that
you have one or two salads too many. How about a nice quiche, asparagus and
blue cheese, for example? (OK, I'll shut up!)

>Cheese
>Assorted Oregon Farmstead Cheeses
>(Don't know the cheeses. Assorted Oregon artisanal cheeses. And I
>don't know much about cheese/wine pairings.)

I'm in complete agreement with Dale. Chese/red wine is often a very
difficult match. SOME cheeses go very well, but soft cheeses almost never
with red wine. To (vastly over)generalise, white goes with more cheeses then
red, and sweet or off dry with more than dry, but all depends upon the
particular cheeses.

>Desert
>Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries

Would this be any particular berry, "oregon berry" as in lingon or cloud, or
is it an assortment of well known soft fruits like strawberries, raspberries
etc? You'd need a wine with a fair amount of acidity, so (I've not drunk
one) a LH Sauvignon might have it. Alternatively (Vino could say if he knows
of one) a semi-dry sparkler might do well. Not too sweet, and it might even
arrive with the cheese and finish with the pud.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

>>Appetizer
>>Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
>>(Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)
>
>
> How hot and dominant's the chilpotle going to be? If VERY mild, I'd look to
> a rosé. A hot glaze is horrible for wine. Maybe an off dry riesling, though
> don't look for a good marriage, merely survival.

Typically, such recipes use a somewhat sweet and not very hot chipotle
glaze. I'd guess that the dominant flavors will come from the tuna.
I'd opt for a rosé sparkler, if such can be found.


>>Soup
>>Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
>>(Same wine as above?)
>
>
> Well, like Dale, I don't usually serve wine with soup, but I'd be happy to
> let people continue with the sherry.

Just a peevish comment here. I cannot stand the use of the term
gazpacho as employed in the US. It usually means something cold and
tomato-y, but covers a broad territory (not a problem in itself, but the
idea that the true common element of a proper gazpacho is bread -- just
as the common element of sushi is rice -- is lost on us). Choosing a
wine to go with such things is virtually impossible without seeing an
actual recipe, and often not even then.
>
>
>>Pasta
>>Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
>>(Pinot Gris)
>
>
> I have difficulty in imagining the tastes here. Butternut is (from my vague
> memory of the stuff) pretty bland, as is pasta in itself, and the sauce is
> either going to be quite bland, or else dominated by sage, which can't be
> said to be hugely wine friendly either. This is the only course which I
> can't begin to get enthusiastic over, especially after the soup.

Good point, especially given the spicing of the surrounding dishes.
Perhaps a mushroom-based pasta dish would improve its standing in the
meal...

>>Entrée
>>Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
>
>
> Hot chops and cold salad? (I''m not very up on Israeli cooking, but I
> thought couscous was from Muslim North Africa and that in the Eastern Med
> one used Bulghur (cracked wheat) for things like Tabbouleh.)

I've had "Israeli couscous" before, though never in Israel. ;-) It's
quite big and soft when compared to the N. African version, and I have
no idea whether it's authentic or ersatz.

>>Desert
>>Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries
>
>
> Would this be any particular berry, "oregon berry" as in lingon or cloud, or
> is it an assortment of well known soft fruits like strawberries, raspberries
> etc? You'd need a wine with a fair amount of acidity, so (I've not drunk
> one) a LH Sauvignon might have it. Alternatively (Vino could say if he knows
> of one) a semi-dry sparkler might do well. Not too sweet, and it might even
> arrive with the cheese and finish with the pud.

My guess, depending on the time of year, would be raspberries,
blackberries, loganberries and/or marionberries. I wonder if anyone in
Oregon does a LH Chenin Blanc?

Mark Lipton

p.s. I recently stumbled across your reply to Dave F in uk.f+w.i.
Perhaps you should explain the difference between entropy and kinetic
energy and the finer points of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. ;-)

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

Thanks very much for explaining/translating this menu.

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:38:48 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Typically, such recipes use a somewhat sweet and not very hot chipotle
>glaze. I'd guess that the dominant flavors will come from the tuna.
>I'd opt for a rosé sparkler, if such can be found.

You don't go for sherry then? I must say I felt it was quite an inspired
thought (small moue of disappointment).

>>>Soup
>>>Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche

>Just a peevish comment here.

Be my guest!!

> I cannot stand the use of the term gazpacho as employed in the US.

Oops, I just fell into the trap of assuming that American and English were
the same language (silly me). No, actually, I fell into a trap of presuming
that one man's gaspacho is another man's gazpacho, even when separated by
5000 (or in this case, nearer 8000) miles.

> It usually means something cold and tomato-y, but covers a broad territory (not a problem in itself, but the
>idea that the true common element of a proper gazpacho is bread -- just as the common element of sushi is rice -- is lost on us). Choosing a wine to go with such things is virtually impossible without seeing an
>actual recipe, and often not even then.

You know, I'm currently having a monster battle on frc over boeuf
bourguignon, I've had the temerity to suggest that it ought to contain beef
and burgundy and that madiran simply doesn't do. There really IS something
to be said for some care over the use of names. Oh dear. That said, I find
it hard to imagine ANY Gaspacho such as I've had, with such crab such as
I've had (though I'm looking forward to the chance of gorging myself on
Dungeness Crab, which I've never tried, this fall), so I should perhaps have
been a little suspicious.

>>>Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
>>>(Pinot Gris)

>> said to be hugely wine friendly either. This is the only course which I
>> can't begin to get enthusiastic over, especially after the soup.

>Good point, especially given the spicing of the surrounding dishes.
>Perhaps a mushroom-based pasta dish would improve its standing in the
>meal...

Thanks. I am left wondering exactly what its purpose is, in the context of
the flow of the menu. I should have said earlier that I find the thought of
a somewhat Italianate Pinot Gris perfectly appropriate with the dish.

>>>Entrée

(this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this
French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start, and NOT main course. But
normally I'm a good boy in the cause of cross atlantic harmony).

>>>Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad

>> Hot chops and cold salad? (I''m not very up on Israeli cooking, but I
>> thought couscous was from Muslim North Africa and that in the Eastern Med
>> one used Bulghur (cracked wheat) for things like Tabbouleh.)
>
>I've had "Israeli couscous" before, though never in Israel. ;-)

Chuckle...

> It's quite big and soft when compared to the N. African version, and I have
>no idea whether it's authentic or ersatz.

I wonder if it isn't cracked wheat then.

>>>Desert
>>>Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries

>blackberries, loganberries and/or marionberries. I wonder if anyone in
>Oregon does a LH Chenin Blanc?

Yup, that would be fine too. In Europe I'd look to see if I couldn't find a
Crémant de Vouvray demi-sec.

>p.s. I recently stumbled across your reply to Dave F in uk.f+w.i.

Oops. I'm a little testy with the gentleman, who insists on advising
industrial rules and regulations in home cooking, and cannot seem to
understand common sense. He reads about obscure _highly_ rare bacteria and
then seeks to scare everyone with them.

>Perhaps you should explain the difference between entropy and kinetic
>energy and the finer points of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. ;-)

I thought about invoking Maxwell's imp, certainly. Though the difference
between simmering and boiling is one where over 70% of writers get it wrong,
so one can't REALLY blame Dave for falling into THAT trap, given his
propensity for traps generally. I even thought of explaining the charming
concept that at any one moment, a saucepan of cold water could -
hypothetically - suddenly divide itself into a block of ice in the bottom
and a cloud of steam at the top, without doing ANY violence to the laws of
physics, even if it were to be VERY far out in left field of any probability
curve!
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> >Appetizer
> >Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
> >(Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)
>
> How hot and dominant's the chipotle going to be? If VERY mild, I'd look to
> a rosé. A hot glaze is horrible for wine. Maybe an off dry riesling,
though
> don't look for a good marriage, merely survival.

Hi, Ian -
At the risk of being obvious, how about serving this dish with a good Sake?
That ought to be surefire with _any_ sauce or glaze - as well as with none
at all.

> >Pasta
> >Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
> >(Pinot Gris)
>
> I have difficulty in imagining the tastes here. Butternut is (from my
vague
> memory of the stuff) pretty bland, as is pasta in itself, and the sauce is
> either going to be quite bland, or else dominated by sage, which can't be
> said to be hugely wine friendly either. This is the only course which I
> can't begin to get enthusiastic over, especially after the soup.

Apparently you haven't eaten butternut squash lately, Ian. I find it to be
quite rich and sweet - sort of like pumpkin, but IMO better. Hardly bland,
anyway. This dish sounds pretty good to me, but I'd try to figure out a way
to work smoked ham hocks into it. ;^D
Pinot Gris should be good with it.

I'm not going to comment on the remainder of the courses. Just my 2¢
worth...

Tom S

Ian Hoare wrote:

> You don't go for sherry then? I must say I felt it was quite an inspired
> thought (small moue of disappointment).

Oh, dear! What have I done now? :P Actually, I find that match fascinating and would be happy to put it into effect should I ever be presented with such a dish. But, as I could not offer any insight into that
match, I decided to offer up my own choice, humble though it be.

>
> Oops, I just fell into the trap of assuming that American and English were
> the same language (silly me). No, actually, I fell into a trap of presuming
> that one man's gaspacho is another man's gazpacho, even when separated by
> 5000 (or in this case, nearer 8000) miles.

Well, I've never had gazpacho in the UK, so I can hardly imagine what that version might consist of. As I said, around here it's usually mostly cold tomato juice with assorted flavorants, and a far cry from the few
gazpachos I've had in Spain.

>
> You know, I'm currently having a monster battle on frc over boeuf
> bourguignon, I've had the temerity to suggest that it ought to contain beef
> and burgundy and that madiran simply doesn't do. There really IS something
> to be said for some care over the use of names.

Well, there's your mistake, Ian: actually thinking that names mean something. Postmodernism has obviously been lost on your antediluvian aesthetics! ;-)

> Oh dear. That said, I find
> it hard to imagine ANY Gaspacho such as I've had, with such crab such as
> I've had (though I'm looking forward to the chance of gorging myself on
> Dungeness Crab, which I've never tried, this fall), so I should perhaps have
> been a little suspicious.

Dungeness crab is OK with me in whatever form it may come, though purist that I am I'll take it steamed with drawn butter if I can (with a top Chablis at hand). However, as part of a mixed marriage (Jean having
grown up on that other coast of the US) I have learned to appreciate the savory delights of the blue claw crab of the Atlantic seaboard and must abashedly confess to preferring it on a taste basis, though Dungeness
is a treat for its size and convenience (cracking 6 blue claws to make a meal is trying, if ultimately rewarding).

>
> >Good point, especially given the spicing of the surrounding dishes.
> >Perhaps a mushroom-based pasta dish would improve its standing in the
> >meal...
>
> Thanks. I am left wondering exactly what its purpose is, in the context of
> the flow of the menu. I should have said earlier that I find the thought of
> a somewhat Italianate Pinot Gris perfectly appropriate with the dish.

Oregon Pinot Gris is more akin to NZ versions: fruity, crisp, often oaked and fairly round. Most Italian versions are more tart and lean in my experience.

>
>
> >>>Entrée
>
> (this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this
> French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start, and NOT main course. But
> normally I'm a good boy in the cause of cross atlantic harmony).

Yes, we've spoken of this before. What a strange perversion of its intended meaning. I think it was you who speculated that it arose from the English usage of it to mean an entry to the main part of the meal
(apologies if it wasn't you).

>
> > It's quite big and soft when compared to the N. African version, and I have
> >no idea whether it's authentic or ersatz.
>
> I wonder if it isn't cracked wheat then.

Nope. Burgul aka bulgar wheat aka ala is well known to me. What I'm talking about is spherical, very soft (when fully hydrated) and ~0.5 cm in diameter. It's a pasta, basically, if one that no Italian would
recognize as such.

> >p.s. I recently stumbled across your reply to Dave F in uk.f+w.i.
>
> Oops. I'm a little testy with the gentleman, who insists on advising
> industrial rules and regulations in home cooking, and cannot seem to
> understand common sense. He reads about obscure _highly_ rare bacteria and
> then seeks to scare everyone with them.

ROFL! I actually know his name from my anti-spamming activities, but he's got quite a "following" in uk.local.yorkshire, I do believe...

>
> I thought about invoking Maxwell's imp, certainly. Though the difference
> between simmering and boiling is one where over 70% of writers get it wrong,
> so one can't REALLY blame Dave for falling into THAT trap, given his
> propensity for traps generally.

I think that, in general, most home cooks tend to "simmer" at a low boil, just as they tend to "sauté" at medium-low heat. Just as restaurants tend to serve their red wines too warm and their whites too cool...

> I even thought of explaining the charming
> concept that at any one moment, a saucepan of cold water could -
> hypothetically - suddenly divide itself into a block of ice in the bottom
> and a cloud of steam at the top, without doing ANY violence to the laws of
> physics, even if it were to be VERY far out in left field of any probability
> curve!

And thereby actually bring the true meaning of entropy into the discussion. Brilliant! From what I saw of that thread, several of the participants who think themselves educated about physics need to reacquaint
themselves with the work of Ludwig Boltzmann, and learn how relate a macroscopic property like temperature of a liquid to a microscopic property like kinetic energy/molecular velocity and follow that up with
Boltzmann's mammoth contributions to statistical thermodynamics. Ah, well. That's not my battle to fight! ;-)

Cheers!
Mark Lipton

Whew, substantive postings, I must read them again more closely. But this
caught my eye --

"Mark Lipton" in message ...
>
> Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>>>>Entrée
> >
> > (this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American
> > misuse of this French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start,
> > and NOT main course. But normally I'm a good boy in the
> > cause of cross atlantic harmony).

This is a good case. I will argue that people in the US who read about
cooking (besides the celebrity best-seller of the week) do run into this
conflict soon. (British-isles English also maintains the traditional casual
sense of "French" salad dressing, same thing it meant in the US, still does
in most US cookbooks before, maybe, 1975, which is a vinaigrette; whoever
introduced the insidious sugar and tomato paste into recent US bottled
dressings under that name did not ask for leave to do so.)

Thus people from the US boarding, say, British Air aeroplanes and offered
"French" dressing have been known to reply "US or UK sense" and the servers
have nodded understandingly and clarified. Same for server queries in some
restaurants as to whether a particular dish is to be an "Entrée" version --
there the ambiguity surfaces exactly. An argument for plain language, if
any were needed ...

I thought that one or more common reference French cookbooks available in
translations did chart the course of Entrée in this sense, but I have not
done my homework on that. Applaud the natural confluence, anyway, of love
of food and love of words. (Pop quiz: Which poet "composed a salad and ate
it" ?)

Mark Lipton wrote:

>
> Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>>
>>>>>Entrée
>>
>>(this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this
>>French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start, and NOT main course. But
>>normally I'm a good boy in the cause of cross atlantic harmony).
>
>
> Yes, we've spoken of this before. What a strange perversion of its intended meaning.
> I think it was you who speculated that it arose from the English usage of it to mean
> an entry to the main part of the meal
> (apologies if it wasn't you).
>>

According to Larousse Gastronomique, which gives example menus of grand
dinners from various periods, it names a course served perhaps third in
sequence, after soup and fish (or substitutes) and before the rôt
(poultry or game). It might well be a roast meat with sauce.

This seems to give authority to the idea that the complained-of usage is
genuinely French, despite the normal meaning of the word, and not an
English corruption.

--brian

--
Brian Boutel
Wellington New Zealand


Note the NOSPAM

Salut/Hi Brian Boutel,

Welcome to the madhouse! Isn't this your first time of posting here?

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:22:37 +1200, tu disais/you said:-

Startig by answering Mark, Sorry Brian
>>>>>>Entrée
>>>
>>>(this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this
>>>French word.

>> Yes, we've spoken of this before.

I know... I can't help it and I know I should be more tolerant.

>> I think it was you who speculated that it arose from the English usage of it to mean
>> an entry to the main part of the meal.

I seem to remember this de(riv~vi)ation being proposed, and have the vaguest
recollection of it being one of our New England contingent who suggested it.

>According to Larousse Gastronomique, which gives example menus of grand
>dinners from various periods, it names a course served perhaps third in
>sequence, after soup and fish (or substitutes) and before the rôt
>(poultry or game). It might well be a roast meat with sauce.

Yup. Though one has to be extremely cautious about Larousse when translated
into English/American. I've got an edition with several mistakes, some of
which are due to it being translated and "pruned" for the American reader.

>This seems to give authority to the idea that the complained-of usage is
>genuinely French, despite the normal meaning of the word, and not an
>English corruption.

Err. Yes, I see what you're getting at. Though if I may correct you
slightly, it's not "roast meat" in a sauce, but "meat" in a sauce. If that
sounds like nit-pickery then I apologise, but there are many dishes like Coq
au Vin, Venison Salmis and so on, where a meat is cooked in wine, for
example, and I think it is this kind of dish that is meant. You're
absolutely right that in a classical menu, the "Entree" was used in that
way. A meal could well have an "Hors d'oeuvre" meaning literally "outside
the work" Ie, not really counting as the meal. It might well be followed by
a fish course, and then as you suggest an Entree.

With the simplification of classical french Haute Cuisine menus in the early
20th century (which is the cooking style which was my speciality when I was
working as a chef in London), the number of courses was quite substantially
reduced. The menu might have a soup, then a course which could best be
called a "Starter" in English (the first dish you could "get your teeth
into"). This would precede the main meat course which was still the "Roast"
Given the position of the "Starter" course, the French word Entrée was
broadened to include a fish course if it preceded the main course. I don't
have a problem with that at all, and I'm afraid I see it in contra-
distinction to the use of Entree AS the main course.

So today, in this area, we often have something like veal sweetbreads (in a
yummy sauce) in a puff pastry shell, or wild mushrooms in between puff
pastry (again), or in a filo pastry "purse", served as "Entrées". I should
in fairness say that the use of Coq au vin as an entree is virtually
unknown, I guess nowadays. So, yes there's a blurring, and given the
cavalier way most french people and most french chefs treat their
gastronomic and culinary traditions, it's not surprising. I'm a self
confessed pedant, purist and traditionalist when it comes to menu planning
and naming.

For a meal I'm planning for an event in June, to be cooked in a hotel owned
by friends, for example, I'm hoping for a meal like this.

Soup:- (Consommé or possibly a cream)
Fish :- Turbot - cooked fairly simply (european turbot is one of the "great
fishes".
Entree, probably a sauced chicken or guinea fowl
Main dish:- Grilled lamb chops (two/three spring vegetables) sauced
Cheeses
Dessert:- birthday cake

This gives good rein to having a fair range of nice wines, too.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:54:29 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> >p.s. I recently stumbled across your reply to Dave F in uk.f+w.i.

>> Oops. I'm a little testy with the gentleman,

>ROFL! I actually know his name from my anti-spamming activities,

Interesting!

>> so one can't REALLY blame Dave for falling into THAT trap, given his
>> propensity for traps generally.
>
>I think that, in general, most home cooks tend to "simmer" at a low boil, just as they tend to "sauté" at medium-low heat. Just as restaurants tend to serve their red wines too warm and their whites too cool...

Yup, but as a resident pedant, I need to point out the truth!


>> I even thought of explaining the charming concept that at any one moment, a saucepan of cold water could -
>> hypothetically - suddenly divide itself into a block of ice in the bottom
>> and a cloud of steam at the top

>And thereby actually bring the true meaning of entropy into the discussion. Brilliant! From what I saw of that thread, several of the participants who think themselves educated about physics need to reacquaint
>themselves with the work of Ludwig Boltzmann,

Yeah, well.... I'm not really there to teach them physics or physical
chemistry! So I contented myself with going through a couple of
(im)pertinant elevation of boiling point calculations, thus completely
demolishing poor old Dave! I also threatened him with you!

And _guess_ where I found some lovely info?

> and learn how relate a macroscopic property like temperature of a liquid to a microscopic property like kinetic energy/molecular velocity and follow that up with Boltzmann's mammoth contributions to statistical thermodynamics. Ah, well. That's not my battle to fight! ;-)

Were I 40 years closer to the time I learnt all that stuff, and had I
actually found it interesting (all I was really keen on was playing in the
Lab - that's why I became a chef), I might take their education in hand.
However, I'm not, and I didn't, and there's every chance they wouldn't
believe me anyway!


>
>Cheers!
>Mark Lipton

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:39:21 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>Whew, substantive postings, I must read them again more closely. But this
>caught my eye --

Well they DO happen sometimes!

>> > (this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American
>> > misuse of this French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start,
>> > and NOT main course. But normally I'm a good boy in the
>> > cause of cross atlantic harmony).
>
>This is a good case. I will argue that people in the US who read about
>cooking (besides the celebrity best-seller of the week) do run into this
>conflict soon.

Absolutely. I have been part of a truly international english language
cookng discussion on Fido, and one thing that never ceases to amaze me, is
just how FAR apart our languages are, when relating to cooking and food.
It's one reason why (impishly) I insist on pointing out that the denizens of
the USA speak "American", and (arrogantly) insist on claiming that as an
Englishman, the language _I_ speak is the only one entitled to be called
"English".
>restaurants as to whether a particular dish is to be an "Entrée" version --
>there the ambiguity surfaces exactly. An argument for plain language, if
>any were needed ...

The great problem is that you may understand my "plain language" perfectly
simply, but incorrectly, because _your_ pint is not _my_ pint and _your_
proof isn't _my_ proof!

>done my homework on that. Applaud the natural confluence, anyway, of love
>of food and love of words. (Pop quiz: Which poet "composed a salad and ate
>it" ?)

Actually, I find that a love of words is more a mark of high intelligence
(however measured, and without any implication of greater value or greater
merit) then anything else, and that high intelligence also tends to be
displayed by a heightened interest in all things that give pleasure. I'd
extend this thesis further in saying that a fairly high level of
intelligence is an essential prequisite for in interest in "intellectual"
pursuits. I've found there's a type of mind which truly enjoys coruscating
and enjoy meeting and admiring them.

One of the saddest characteristics that the USA and the UK have in common,
is a deep suspicion of intellect and intelligence, to the extent that no
President of the USA ever dares show his/her intelligence. I blame Hollywood
for this, with their archetypical bone headed bone fisted hero, who proves
the rightness of his/her cause by beating in the heads of the archetypical
intelligent villain. This villain is, of course, nearly always an effete
European, driving an effete European car, who pontificates with erudition
(entirely erroneously) about the delights of the '68 Ch Lafite Rothschild
(poured from a clearly burgundy shaped bottle).

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> It's one reason why (impishly) I insist on pointing out that the denizens
of
> the USA speak "American", and (arrogantly) insist on claiming that as an
> Englishman, the language _I_ speak is the only one entitled to be called
> "English".

Hold your horses there, Ian. I'll bet the inhabitants of _South_ America
(who speak primarily either Spanish or Portuguese) would give us just as
hard a time if we in the USA were to call our version of English "American"
as you do for our calling it "English".

Maybe we need another name for it, but in the meantime we'll default to
"English" - as opposed to "The King's English". ;^)

> I've found there's a type of mind which truly enjoys coruscating
> and enjoy meeting and admiring them.

Whoa! "Coruscating"? Good word. I had to look that one up. :^)

> One of the saddest characteristics that the USA and the UK have in common,
> is a deep suspicion of intellect and intelligence, to the extent that no
> President of the USA ever dares show his/her intelligence. I blame
Hollywood
> for this, with their archetypical bone headed bone fisted hero, who proves
> the rightness of his/her cause by beating in the heads of the archetypical
> intelligent villain. This villain is, of course, nearly always an effete
> European, driving an effete European car, who pontificates with erudition
> (entirely erroneously) about the delights of the '68 Ch Lafite Rothschild
> (poured from a clearly burgundy shaped bottle).

Hey, wait a minute! What about three of our most highly regarded _heroes_?
James Bond, Sherlock Holmes and our California Governator are all
_Europeans_. Furthermore, these days most of our villains are arab
terrorists - not "effete European" posers.

Our studio executives insist on absolute authenticity in their productions.
What you see these days on TV and at the movies here in the USA is as close
to documentary as it gets! ;^D

Tom S

"Ian Hoare" in ...
> Salut/Hi Max Hauser,
> le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:39:21 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
> > . . .
> >restaurants as to whether a particular dish is to be an "Entrée"
version --
> >there the ambiguity surfaces exactly. An argument for plain language, if
> >any were needed ...
>
> The great problem is that you may understand my "plain language" perfectly
> simply, but incorrectly, because _your_ pint is not _my_ pint and _your_
> proof isn't _my_ proof!

I agree (by the way, that issue does not seem to be limited to food). And
you did not even mention the many cheerful speakers in the US unaware that
their usage of certain vocabulary like corn, eggplant, zucchini is
nonstandard; that most of the English around the world has other names (in
those particular examples, of course, respectively maize, aubergine, and
various -- UK "vegetable marrows" I always found delightful).

None of this however was my object. By "plain language" I questioned
getting twisted around at restaurants over (for whatever historical reasons)
US-English speakers adopting a French word differently from the way
UK-English speakers adopted the same French word. It is at least
theoretically possible for Anglophone restaurants to use idiom like "main
course," exotic though that may sound.

GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION...

Appetizer

The saké idea is great. Just so happens there's a kura in Oregon
called SakéOne that produces under the Momokawa and Moonstone labels.
Their Junmai Ginjo Medium-Dry "Diamond" would be a nice pairing, if
the chipotle is mild. If it's a little more intense, I would say
perhaps serve the same wine as for the soup course.


Soup

2002 Early Muscat Semi-Sparkling (Pétillant) The hint of sweetness
will play well with this course, plus the bubbles will cleanse the
palate from the saké and prepare it for the next course.


Pasta

2002 Elk Cove Pinot Gris. Another less expensive option would be the
2002 Elvenglade Pinot Gris, from the Sinnean/Owen Roe winemakers.


Fish

This one's a toughy, since really you need a red in this spot to break
up the wine menu a bit. A nice Rioja would be great, BUT... hehe An
interesting experiment could be the 2001 Eola Hills Marechal Foch. If
you're OK with extending the whites some, try the 2001 Argyle
Willamette Valley Chardonnay. There's a hint of lime in the finish,
plus some nice acidity that, combined with the Dijon clone traits,
should be a knockout pairing with this course.


RIGHT HERE A NICE COURSE WITH SOME MUSHROOMS WOULD BE GREAT, like a
galette of early morels. THAT WOULD LEND ITSELF WELL TO OREGON'S
FAMOUS PINOTS. If your friend goes for it, look to J. K. Carriere,
Patricia Green, etc. AWESOME boutique Pinot producers that most
people will not be familiar with.


Entrée

1999 Andrew Rich "Mésalliance" (Cab/Merlot/Syrah blend) This is a
neat one, even if he cheats a tad and uses 7% Syrah from Washington's
Red Mountain AVA (hence the proprietary name of the wine). TRUST ME!!


Salad

I completely agree. Serve a nice mineral water with this one. The
course serves as a palate cleanser all on it own. A little bit of
Belgian endive, escarole or frisée would be nice with it - bitter
greens are digestives!


Cheese

Same wines as the dessert course. Really depends on the cheeses, too.
Ruby port or a late-harvest white with some zing would be nice with
one of Bandon's aged cheddars. Maybe some of that left-over Early
Muscat business with Blue Heron's brie. Another would be the 1997
Eola Hills LBV Cabernet Port.


Dessert

2001 Andrew Rich Late-Harvest Gewürztraminer "Les Vigneaux"
1997 Laurel Ridge Tawny Port

Another interesting option for this course, depending on the Oregon
liquor laws, might be the Framboise Eau-de-Vie from Clear Creek
Distillery in Portland.

****

Hope this all helps! If you'd like more info, feel free to email me
at .

Kyle in Seattle




Roy > wrote in message >...
> A friend has asked me to come up with wine suggestions for a dinner he's
> putting together for a charity auction. I've got some ideas, but I
> figured there's so much good knowledge in this NG that I'd see if I
> could take advantage of it. He wants to use only Oregon wines, so I
> don't really expect specifics (unless you have them). More to the
> point, what I'm looking for are thoughts with regards to varietals and
> particular characteristics that would make sense. Here's the sample
> menu (with my meager wine thoughts).
>
> Appetizer
> Flash Seared Ahi Tuna in Chipotle Glaze
> (Riesling or Gewuerztraminer - Dry/off-dry/sweet?)
>
> Soup
> Gazpacho with Dungeness Crab and Dilled Crème Fraiche
> (Same wine as above?)
>
> Pasta
> Butternut Squash Ravioli in a Brown Butter-Sage Sauce
> (Pinot Gris)
>
> Fish
> Shrimp "Cocktails" with Bloody Mary Granita
> (Same wine as above?)
>
> Entrée
> Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
> (Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
> Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
> for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)
>
> Salad
> Blood Orange and Root Vegetable Salad
> (No wine.)
>
> Cheese
> Assorted Oregon Farmstead Cheeses
> (Don't know the cheeses. Assorted Oregon artisanal cheeses. And I
> don't know much about cheese/wine pairings.)
>
> Desert
> Zabaglione with Fresh Oregon Berries
> (Late harvest Gewuerztraminer or Riesling. [_Maybe_ a LH Sauvignon
> Blanc.])
>
> Well, there you have it. Any and all thoughts gratefully accepted.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Roy
>
> =*=*=
> Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
> - Mark Twain
> The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:43:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>> >there the ambiguity surfaces exactly. An argument for plain language, if
>> >any were needed ...

>> The great problem is that you may understand my "plain language" perfectly
>> simply, but incorrectly, because _your_ pint is not _my_ pint and _your_
>> proof isn't _my_ proof!

>I agree (by the way, that issue does not seem to be limited to food).

Absolutely. I remember driving on I (something or other) in NY state when we
came to a bridge. Just before it was a sign "Beware, ice on pavement" I
frowned and asked Jacquie "I wonder why they warn you about ice on the
pavement, when we're twenty miles from the nearest town and pedestrians
aren't allowed on freeways anyway. All most odd."

Because _your_ pavement is my road (surface) and _my_ pavement is _your_
sidewalk. While I was perfectly well aware of the meaning and equivalent of
the word sidewalk, somehow it hadn't occurred to me that my word for it had
it's own meaning and usage!

>you did not even mention the many cheerful speakers in the US unaware that
>their usage of certain vocabulary like corn, eggplant, zucchini is
>nonstandard; that most of the English around the world has other names (in
>those particular examples, of course, respectively maize, aubergine, and
>various -- UK "vegetable marrows" I always found delightful).

No, although of course well aware of it. I've found that many of my american
(oops - for Tom S "USAn") friends get a little twitchy when it's pointed out
that many such names are exclusive to the USA, with almost all other
anglophone countries using a different name. So I tend not to make too much
of a thing of it. But that it should be so is not surprising really, as most
of these other countries kept their English connection (dominance if you
will) much longer, and will therefore have met these products via the UK.

>None of this however was my object. By "plain language" I questioned
>getting twisted around at restaurants over (for whatever historical reasons)
>US-English speakers adopting a French word differently from the way
>UK-English speakers adopted the same French word.

Well, I have to say that I feel that if the members of a country; USA, UK or
Outer Mongolia; want to use expressions form another, and in this context,
french words for menu planning or food preparation, then that's fine, as
long as they respect French usage. (I could add that the same applies - in
spades - to the French, who have a positive genius for borrowing words from
Ameringlish and misusing them. "Walkie-talkie" with the 'ls firmly
pronounced, "un apartement de grand standing" "le parking" (car park).
"Tchatcher" (to chat) and so on.)

>theoretically possible for Anglophone restaurants to use idiom like "main
>course," exotic though that may sound.

And indeed in my recipe databases, I classify such dishes as "main dish",
with entrees (in the french sense) as "starters", reserving "appetizers" for
nibbles or more substantial food, designed to be served with the
pre-prandial drinks, or standing on their own with cocktails.



--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

> Salut/Hi Brian Boutel,
>
> Welcome to the madhouse! Isn't this your first time of posting here?
>
> le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:22:37 +1200, tu disais/you said:-
>
> Startig by answering Mark, Sorry Brian
>
>>>>>>>Entrée
>>>>
>>>>(this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this
>>>>French word.
>
>
>
>>>Yes, we've spoken of this before.
>
>
> I know... I can't help it and I know I should be more tolerant.
>
>
>>>I think it was you who speculated that it arose from the English usage of it to mean
>>>an entry to the main part of the meal.
>
>
> I seem to remember this de(riv~vi)ation being proposed, and have the vaguest
> recollection of it being one of our New England contingent who suggested it.
>
>
>>According to Larousse Gastronomique, which gives example menus of grand
>>dinners from various periods, it names a course served perhaps third in
>>sequence, after soup and fish (or substitutes) and before the rôt
>>(poultry or game). It might well be a roast meat with sauce.
>
>
> Yup. Though one has to be extremely cautious about Larousse when translated
> into English/American. I've got an edition with several mistakes, some of
> which are due to it being translated and "pruned" for the American reader.
>
>
>>This seems to give authority to the idea that the complained-of usage is
>>genuinely French, despite the normal meaning of the word, and not an
>>English corruption.
>
>
> Err. Yes, I see what you're getting at. Though if I may correct you
> slightly, it's not "roast meat" in a sauce, but "meat" in a sauce. If that
> sounds like nit-pickery then I apologise, but there are many dishes like Coq
> au Vin, Venison Salmis and so on, where a meat is cooked in wine, for
> example, and I think it is this kind of dish that is meant. You're
> absolutely right that in a classical menu, the "Entree" was used in that
> way. A meal could well have an "Hors d'oeuvre" meaning literally "outside
> the work" Ie, not really counting as the meal. It might well be followed by
> a fish course, and then as you suggest an Entree.
>
> With the simplification of classical french Haute Cuisine menus in the early
> 20th century (which is the cooking style which was my speciality when I was
> working as a chef in London), the number of courses was quite substantially
> reduced. The menu might have a soup, then a course which could best be
> called a "Starter" in English (the first dish you could "get your teeth
> into"). This would precede the main meat course which was still the "Roast"
> Given the position of the "Starter" course, the French word Entrée was
> broadened to include a fish course if it preceded the main course. I don't
> have a problem with that at all, and I'm afraid I see it in contra-
> distinction to the use of Entree AS the main course.
> This gives good rein to having a fair range of nice wines, too.
>

Another confusing issue is whether the entrée is defined as a course
served at a particular point in the sequence of the meal, or defined by
the kind of food it consists of, or involves both. Also, one has to
distinguish between a fixed dinner menu and an a la carte menu, where
there are several choices for each course. An a la carte menu here in NZ
usually labels the "starters" as entrées, and NZers going to the US for
the first time get confused. My recollection of English a la carte menus
(I haven't lived in the UK for a long time and visit only every 3 or 4
years, so this may be not current usage) is that entrées may be listed
as a section of the mains, and grills and poultry listed separately. In
those menus, entrées seemed, to my struggling memory, to consist mostly
of roast meats, although I'm not wedded to this notion. Perhaps, if one
had the time, money and stomach for it, one might eat an entrée and
another main, in that sequence, which reflects the original French sense
of the word, but normally, one would not, and the entrée section would
be treated simply as part of the listing of main courses. So perhaps it
is the simplification of menus that you refer to, that has resulted in
the loss of the entrée in its original sense as a distinct course, and
caused the name to become associated with an adjacent course, either
earlier (justified by the common meaning of the word) or later,
(justified by the kind of food).

--brian


--
Brian Boutel
Wellington New Zealand


Note the NOSPAM

> >
>
> Another confusing issue is whether the entrée is defined as a course
> served at a particular point in the sequence of the meal, or defined by
> the kind of food it consists of, or involves both. Also, one has to
> distinguish between a fixed dinner menu and an a la carte menu, where
> there are several choices for each course. An a la carte menu here in NZ
> usually labels the "starters" as entrées, and NZers going to the US for
> the first time get confused. My recollection of English a la carte menus
> (I haven't lived in the UK for a long time and visit only every 3 or 4
> years, so this may be not current usage) is that entrées may be listed
> as a section of the mains, and grills and poultry listed separately. In
> those menus, entrées seemed, to my struggling memory, to consist mostly
> of roast meats, although I'm not wedded to this notion. Perhaps, if one
> had the time, money and stomach for it, one might eat an entrée and
> another main, in that sequence, which reflects the original French sense
> of the word, but normally, one would not, and the entrée section would
> be treated simply as part of the listing of main courses. So perhaps it
> is the simplification of menus that you refer to, that has resulted in
> the loss of the entrée in its original sense as a distinct course, and
> caused the name to become associated with an adjacent course, either
> earlier (justified by the common meaning of the word) or later,
> (justified by the kind of food).
>

I avoid all of this by announcing at the beginning of dinner that I follow
the Italian "antipasto, primi, secundi" method. And then I serve just
whatever I damn well please.

Mathew Kagis wrote:

> > > Entrée
> > > Lamb Chops served over Israeli Couscous Salad
> > > (Yuk! I'm trying to get him to change this since Oregon's got good
> > > Pinot Noir, but no Cabernet to brag about. Pinot's the best we've got
> > > for this. If no change, I'm suggesting adding some mushrooms.)
>
> I know Oregon produces a few Merlots... Can't say I've tried them, but
> would any have the chops (pun intended) to stand up to this dish?

What Cabs and Merlots Oregon produces are not worth the grapes they're pressed
from. OK, maybe that's a _bit_ strong and maybe even technically incorrect, but
not by far. There are a few producers, mostly to the south, that make Cabs,
Merlots, and Meritages. Every few years or so I visit them and taste their
wares. Every time they tell me how much they've improved and how great their
stuff is now. Every time I go away thinking, "Yuck! I'd not pay _those_ prices
for _that_ swill." To be fair, in the last 10-15 years they've pulled
themselves out of the realm of "swill", but with Washington producing _so_ much
better value (by an order of magnitude), I'd not waste a cent on Oregon's. I
just don't find it worth drinking. (Not that I have an opinion on the subject
or anything.)

Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark
Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Roy wrote:

> A friend has asked me to come up with wine suggestions for a dinner he's
> putting together for a charity auction. I've got some ideas, but I
> figured there's so much good knowledge in this NG that I'd see if I
> could take advantage of it. He wants to use only Oregon wines, so I
> don't really expect specifics (unless you have them). More to the
> point, what I'm looking for are thoughts with regards to varietals and
> particular characteristics that would make sense. Here's the sample
> menu (with my meager wine thoughts). ...

Thank-you one and all. Some excellent ideas. I'll definitely be coming
back to take advantage of the wisdom in this group.

To Ian and others whose blood pressure rises at the (incorrect) American use
of the word, "entree", I apologize. I did not edit the menu I received,
rather transfering it directly into my posting. I'll try to do better next
time. :-)

To those who wondered about the choice of dishes (too many salads, odd
order, not wine-friendly, whatever), I've had no hand in it. I suspect they
don't have that much experience with wine and food and probably just thought
they were interesting courses. (I was brought into the act because I
somehow got designated the group's "wine guru" [because I donate some rather
nice wines to the auction each year - go figure].) I've since discovered
this was just supposed to be a _sample_ menu, with the _real_ menu to be
determined with the diners' input, what's available at the time (including
the wines), etc., so I may yet be back with a revised (and actual) menu.
(I'm hoping I'll have a _bit_ of input so as to improve the food/wine
marriage.)

Another friend and I will be offering a wine dinner in my (soon?) to be
completed new house. (She and her beau cook, I wine, and the house
astounds.) I may consult the expertise in this group for that, too, but the
dishes tend not to be too exotic/odd, since the wines are major part of the
meal, and we have a _bit_ more experience with pairing food and wine.
[Also, my cellar is a _bit_ more international than just Oregon. :-) ] I
don't happen to believe that you want particularly complex/active dishes if
you're trying to showcase good food _and_ fine wines. (Am I wrong in this
assumption?)

In any event, I thank you all again for your input. It is much appreciated.

Regards,

- Roy

=*=*=
Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. -
Mark Twain
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> Well, I have to say that I feel that if the members of a
> country; USA, UK or Outer Mongolia; want to use expressions form
> another, and in this context, french words for menu planning or
> food preparation, then that's fine, as long as they respect
> French usage.

Just about the worst possible distortion: »Maître d'«, spoken as
"maiterdee", formerly know as »Maître d'Hôtel« and never
abbreviated in this totally absurd way in France. When I first
heard that, I didn't have the slightest idea of what we were
talking about.

M.

"Roy" wrote in message
>
> What Cabs and Merlots Oregon produces are not worth the grapes they're
pressed
> from. OK, maybe that's a _bit_ strong and maybe even technically
incorrect, but
> not by far. There are a few producers, mostly to the south, that make
Cabs,
> Merlots, and Meritages. Every few years or so I visit them and taste
their
> wares. Every time they tell me how much they've improved and how great
their
> stuff is now. Every time I go away thinking, "Yuck! I'd not pay _those_
prices
> for _that_ swill." To be fair, in the last 10-15 years they've pulled
> themselves out of the realm of "swill", but with Washington producing _so_
much
> better value (by an order of magnitude), I'd not waste a cent on Oregon's.
I
> just don't find it worth drinking. (Not that I have an opinion on the
subject
> or anything.)
>

Roy: well, I'll not waste my money then.

cheers
Mathew