Although not a newbie to wine, I am a newbie to this group but couldn't
resist so please bear with me.

Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp (don't mistake spicy
for hot) on Sunday. Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
Had everything you would expect from a well made Gewerz except it was 13%
alcohol.

I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher alcohol
content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but alas...) but
Alsace doesn't fit.

I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return to the
lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.

Ken Donovan

"donovan10" > wrote in
le.rogers.com:

> Although not a newbie to wine, I am a newbie to this group but
> couldn't resist so please bear with me.
>
> Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp (don't mistake
> spicy for hot) on Sunday. Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000,
> Tradition Hugel. Had everything you would expect from a well made
> Gewerz except it was 13% alcohol.
>
> I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher
> alcohol content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but
> alas...) but Alsace doesn't fit.
>
> I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return
> to the lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.
>
> Ken Donovan
>
>
>

Alsatian wines in general are finished alot drier (with resulting higher
alcohol leverls) than their German counterparts. Go East a few miles for
wines with more of the style that you seek.

Ken Donovan wrote.....

> Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp
> (don't mistake spicy for hot) on Sunday.

> Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
> Had everything you would expect from a well made Gewerz
> except it was 13% alcohol.
>
> I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher alcohol
> content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but alas...) but
> Alsace doesn't fit.
>
> I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return to
the
> lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.

I think that you are slightly off track, Ken.

Most of those gorgeous rieslings from the Mosel-Saar-Ruwer are still
anything from 7-10% alcohol, as they always have been, and, in my
experience, because Alsatian wines are generally fermented dry (or slightly
off dry) most have an alcohol content in that 12-13% range - again, as they
always have.

Vintage differences aside, I do not think that there has been any
significant, recent change in these wines.

With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*

st.helier

"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Ken Donovan wrote.....
>deletions> >
Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
>>>>>>>>>>More deletions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*
>
> st.helier
>

Of course to a pedant like myself (g), that's an open invitation to
ask if there is not an umlaut on the u, as in Gewürztraminer but I
won't even take bets that the letter will arrive properly even if it
looks good at the moment!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

Touché

Sorry James

Touché withdrawn.

If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.

st.helier

My stepmother, from rural Washington state in the US, pronouced it
"Ga-WURTS-a-meener" but appreciated it very well anyway, whatever it was
called and wherever it grew, and cooked insightful accompaniments.


"st.helier" in ...
> Touché withdrawn.
>
> If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
> was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.
>
> st.helier


Wimsey: "Bang. You're dead, Bunter."
Bunter: "Very good, my lord."

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:49:03 -0700, "Max Hauser" > said:

] My stepmother, from rural Washington state in the US, pronouced it
] "Ga-WURTS-a-meener" but appreciated it very well anyway, whatever it was
] called and wherever it grew, and cooked insightful accompaniments.
]
[]

Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged. My thanks
in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason, as with webtv users.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry James
>
> Touchi withdrawn.
>
> If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and
the OP
> was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.
>
> st.helier
>

I guess I must agree with your rebuttal as far as the usage of the
Trimbach company is concerned but what can you expect of the French
(g)? German language web pages always seem to use the umlaut but I'm
not familiar enough with Alsace to say what people actually use there.

Best wishes,

Jim

>Touché withdrawn.

You guys are getting a bit touché feely.....
>
>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach

You know what they say - you can't make an umlaut without breaking........oh
never mind ;-)

FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.

Bill Spohn wrote:

>>Touché withdrawn.
>
>
> You guys are getting a bit touché feely.....
>
>>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach
>
>
> You know what they say - you can't make an umlaut without breaking........oh
> never mind ;-)

Ouch, ouch, ouch!!! Bill, that's awful.

Good job,
Mark Lipton

James Silverton wrote:


> I guess I must agree with your rebuttal as far as the usage of the
> Trimbach company is concerned but what can you expect of the French
> (g)? German language web pages always seem to use the umlaut but I'm
> not familiar enough with Alsace to say what people actually use there.

Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut included)
means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the grape name "traminer"
(which in turn refers to its place of origin, Termeno in Alto Aldige aka
the Südtirol).

Mark Lipton

<snip>
>FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.
>

FWIW, I'm a bit challenged at the keyboard and I don't use grammatically
correct accents (like umlaut's) when I'm responding on my news reader since for
some reason my keyboard changes won't work unless I'm using a word processing
software (like MS Word). I don't mean any disrespect or ignorance just a bit
of laziness I guess.


Bi!!

Mark Lipton wrote:

> Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut
> included) means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the
> grape name "traminer" (which in turn refers to its place
> of origin, Termeno in Alto Aldige aka the Südtirol).

By the way... if somebody can put his hands on a bottle
of 2003 Goldmuskateller Trocken from the Tramin winery
(full name "produttori di termeno - tramin"), try it out!
It's fantastic! For my tastes, it's worth two-three times
its price. Here in italy (200km south of alto adige) it
costs around 6.50 euro.
Great flowery nose, apricot leading voer tropical fruits
like banana and (a hint of) pineapple.
Good sweetness and acidity, long finish.
A QPR winner.

Vilco

"RV WRLee" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> >FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.
> >
>
> FWIW, I'm a bit challenged at the keyboard and I don't use
grammatically
> correct accents (like umlaut's) when I'm responding on my news
reader since for
> some reason my keyboard changes won't work unless I'm using a word
processing
> software (like MS Word). I don't mean any disrespect or ignorance
just a bit
> of laziness I guess.
>

I'd go along with that too since I don't usually bother with accents
etc. in informal writing! Some of the replies with umlauts did not
survive the net anyway(g). It seems that the French don't bother with
them and my bit of pedantry was just a reponse to a correction :-)
Just to add fuel to the fire, I suppose we might use the alternative
German spelling, Gewuertztraminer, like the Swiss but I don't ever
recall seeing that on a bottle.

Jim.

"Mark Lipton" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Ouch, ouch, ouch!!!
Ouch? Here we would say Oeuf, oeuf... Much more fitting, I think
:-) Anders

Emery Davis > wrote in message news:
>
> Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged. My thanks
> in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason, as with webtv users.
>
> -E

Forgive my posting ignorance, but what does this mean?

-emily (winemonger)

(winemonger) wrote in
om:

> Emery Davis > wrote in message news:
>>
>> Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged.
>> My thanks in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason,
>> as with webtv users.
>>
>> -E
>
> Forgive my posting ignorance, but what does this mean?
>
> -emily (winemonger)
>

Proper netiquette requires that posters put their comments either at the
end of the previous matterial, as I am doing, or interspersing it through
the text at relevant points ( of course it also calls for judiciaous
trimming of text to get rid of matter no longer in debate.(hence only the
relevant data shown above.)

>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
>was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.

st. helier

I just check my bottle of Trimbach (in the fridge), and you are right, no
umlaut. But the Riverview (Ontario) Gewurz. I have been sipping tonite HAS the
umlaut. Although, I don't include it, because I do not have the character set.

Tom Schellberg (no umlaut on this name)

On 22 Apr 2004 05:15:10 GMT, (Xyzsch) wrote:

>>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
>>was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.
>
>st. helier
>
>I just check my bottle of Trimbach (in the fridge), and you are right, no
>umlaut. But the Riverview (Ontario) Gewurz. I have been sipping tonite HAS the
>umlaut. Although, I don't include it, because I do not have the character set.
>

Simple, there is no umlaut in French, and the french "u" (without
umaut) has the same sound as the german "ü". And Trimbach is French.
And Gewurztraminer, as everyone knows, finds its best expression in
Alsace, not in Germany...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"jcoulter" in ...
> (winemonger) wrote:
> om:
>
> > Emery Davis > wrote in message news:
> >>
> >> Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged.
> >> My thanks in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason,
> >> as with webtv users.
> >>
> >> -E
> >
> > Forgive my posting ignorance, but what does this mean?
> >
> > -emily (winemonger)
>
> Proper netiquette requires that posters put their comments either at the
> end of the previous matterial, as I am doing, or interspersing it through
> the text at relevant points ( of course it also calls for judiciaous
> trimming of text to get rid of matter no longer in debate.(hence only the
> relevant data shown above.)


This advice is constructively offered and taken, though I would submit that
the situation has a basis, not just dogma; and admits some flexibility. (I
did so submit, in email several hours ago to Emery Davis and such other
frequent recent posters as I could readily find addresses for.)

This particular Netiquette preference is comparatively recent and a
reaction, I believe, to newbie habits. Netiquette must adapt to changing
times. The first public Netiquette guide I used was written late 1982 (I
may have it on paper still; one of the people behind it is quoted below) and
evolved by 1995 into RFC1855, the standard public document on the subject
and the starting point for most later "Netiquette" guidance. My email today
was an earnest feedback inviting further comment (please email me if you
want a copy).

Following Netiquette of MUCH longer standing, I plan to keep that discussion
offline and summarize later here if appropriate. Or to quote a 1982
posting:

> Message-ID: <bnews.tpdcvax.220>
> Newsgroups: net.nlang,net.misc
> Posted: Wed Nov 24 17:25:42 1982
>
> ... Let's all follow good netiquette; send me mail with your definition
(and references) and I'll summarize soon.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Van Valzah
> (...!decvax!ittvax!tpdcvax!bobvan)

(Sorry, narrative flow required top-posting for that quotation. :-)

Best to all -- Max Hauser

Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut
> included) means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the grape
> name "traminer" (which in turn refers to its place of origin,
> Termeno in Alto Aldige aka the Südtirol).

The name refers to the German name of the village, Tramin. Italian
names of these places only date from post 1919/20.

M.

"James Silverton" > wrote:

> I suppose we might use the alternative German spelling,
> Gewuertztraminer,
^
|

Please - there is no "t" here! It's plain gewurz, Gewürz or
Gewuerz - but never gewurtz (nor gewertz).

> like the Swiss

They rarely do that except for capital letters, as in
"Oesterreich" for Austria.

> but I don't ever recall seeing that on a bottle.

Of course not.

M.

"James Silverton" > wrote:

>> With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*

> Of course to a pedant like myself (g), that's an open invitation
> to ask if there is not an umlaut on the u, as in Gewürztraminer
> [...]

It's very easy: It's "gewurztraminer" on the left, and
"Gewürztraminer" on the right bank of the Rhine.

M.

(another post that seems to have floated out into nowheresville, some points
have already been covered)

It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I didn't myself for
years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a while back on Allchars, a
freeware program available at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
It really is a great program, that makes putting in accents easy and intuitive.
You just hit control, then a logical two-letter combination ("d" & "g" to make
the degree sign- 45°; "e" and " ' " to make an acute e - é , and so on). I find
it easier than remembering Windows character map codes. Of course, if you have
a special keyboard, even easier. Now that it's not a pain, I try to use (I
still slip, especially if I don't have a bottle handy).

As to Gewürztraminer, I checked the Trimach SdR and then the other Alsace
bottles I have (Burn, Zind-Humbrecht, and Frick) -none use the umlaut. I did
notice the '98 ZH Herrenweg de Turckheim had 15% ABV! The Trimbach '98 SdR is
14%.

Like the original poster, I do lament the thrust towards ever-riper,
higher-alcohol wines. But in general I don't think there's been a huge shift in
Alsace that way (though ZH certainly picks late). I think that Mosel-Saar-Ruwer
still has the traditional paradigm, but there's always been vintage variations.
What can you do in vintages like 2001? You either increase alcohol a little or
sweetness.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In ,
Dale Williams > typed:

> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I
didn't
> myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a
while
> back on Allchars, a freeware program available at
> http://allchars.zwolnet.com/


It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.


--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

On 22 Apr 2004 17:21:48 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I didn't myself for
>years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a while back on Allchars, a
>freeware program available at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
>It really is a great program, that makes putting in accents easy and intuitive.
>You just hit control, then a logical two-letter combination ("d" & "g" to make
>the degree sign- 45°; "e" and " ' " to make an acute e - é , and so on). I find
>it easier than remembering Windows character map codes. Of course, if you have
>a special keyboard, even easier. Now that it's not a pain, I try to use (I
>still slip, especially if I don't have a bottle handy).
Thanks for posting this. I used to have this program but when I
changed computers it got lost in the shuffle and I couldn't remember
the web site to get it back.
>
>As to Gewürztraminer, I checked the Trimach SdR and then the other Alsace
>bottles I have (Burn, Zind-Humbrecht, and Frick) -none use the umlaut. I did
>notice the '98 ZH Herrenweg de Turckheim had 15% ABV! The Trimbach '98 SdR is
>14%.
I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer, the
Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've never
done a scientific study to support this belief. FWIW, I looked at a
bottle of Columbia Valley Gewurtztraminer and found that the spelling
on the front label omitted the umlaut and the label on the back used
it. Go figure.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

"Michael Pronay" > skrev i melding
...
> "James Silverton" > wrote:
>
> It's very easy: It's "gewurztraminer" on the left, and
> "Gewürztraminer" on the right bank of the Rhine.
>
It would be nice to study a left bank label from before 1918...
Elsass-Lothringen was German then, you know...
:-) Anders

"Dale Williams" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Like the original poster, I do lament the thrust towards ever-riper,
> higher-alcohol wines. But in general I don't think there's been a huge
shift in
> Alsace that way (though ZH certainly picks late). I think that
Mosel-Saar-Ruwer
> still has the traditional paradigm, but there's always been vintage
variations.
> What can you do in vintages like 2001? You either increase alcohol a
little or
> sweetness.
>
There has in general been quite a shift towards drier wines and consequently
more alcoholic wines in Mosel. I used to claim for several years that no
good dry wines could be made in Mosel but find myself buying more and more
of some quite nice specimens :-), for instance a Graacher Domprobst Riesling
Spätlese Trocken 2002, with 12%, from Kees-Kieren...
Anders

"Ken Blake" > wrote:

>> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I
>> didn't myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay)
>> posted a while back on Allchars, a freeware program available
>> at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/

> It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
> often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.

Actually we both did, you first on 3 May 2000, I on 2 November
2002, you supported the choice the same day, and I repeated the
recommendation on 12 March 2003.

M.

Vino > wrote:

> I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer,
> the Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've
> never done a scientific study to support this belief.

No need for a specific study - it's the pronunciation/spelling
rules.

M.

In ,
Michael Pronay > typed:

> "Ken Blake" > wrote:
>
>>> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I
>>> didn't myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay)
>>> posted a while back on Allchars, a freeware program available
>>> at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
>
>> It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
>> often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.
>
> Actually we both did, you first on 3 May 2000, I on 2 November
> 2002, you supported the choice the same day, and I repeated the
> recommendation on 12 March 2003.


Thanks for the correction. Unlike you, I didn't check Google.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

On 22 Apr 2004 21:02:22 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer,
>> the Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've
>> never done a scientific study to support this belief.
>
>No need for a specific study - it's the pronunciation/spelling
>rules.
>
I figured that much. My point, which I admittedly did not make clear,
was which spelling is used on French (effectively Alsatian in this
case) labels versus what is used on German labels. I suspect your
answer applies in either case.

Is any GW made in Austria? If it is, I suspect the umlaut is used
there also.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Vino > wrote:

> I figured that much. My point, which I admittedly did not make
> clear, was which spelling is used on French (effectively
> Alsatian in this case) labels versus what is used on German
> labels. I suspect your answer applies in either case.

Exactly: "u" und France, "ü" in Germany.

> Is any GW made in Austria?

Yes.

> If it is, I suspect the umlaut is used there also.

Yes, and also on the German labels in Südtirol (Alto Adige).

M.