What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?

Tasting notes?
Production notes?
Cellar potential?
Food pairing recommendation?
Some story about the vintner or the region?
Something else entirely?

Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the most.

Tasting notes (if not from a source one has familiarity with) are of limited
value. I've yet to find a food pairing on a wine label I thought helpful (but
if you are bringing in a Muscadet, feel free to suggest mussels).

I would be interested in the winemaker's view on optimal drinking window.

If there is an INTERESTING story re the wine, vintner, or the name of the wine
that can be fun.

But to me, nothing is as valuable as production notes. What is the cepage? When
were vines planted? What are yields? Barrel fermentation or stainless? Aged in
stainless or oak? Barrique or foudre? What percentage of barrels are new?
Maceration method? Etc. etc. etc. Will these things tell me what a wine will
taste like? Well, not really. But it will give me some clue as to whether a
wine is made in a style that might fit in with my preferences and biases.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

oh, yeah, one other thought:

following what appeals to a geek crowd might not be the way to financial
success. I might not like it, but back labels singing of "vanilla and cherry
flavors bursting out in a cascade of fruit, a perfect accompaniment for beef,
chicken, lemon sole, asparagus, or guacamole. Our winemaker was promising actor
before hormore therapy went awry" might sell more than notes re cold
maceration.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 5 May 2004 12:51:50 -0700, (winemonger)
wrote:

>What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
>
>Tasting notes?
>Production notes?
>Cellar potential?
>Food pairing recommendation?
>Some story about the vintner or the region?
>Something else entirely?
>
>Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the most.

Why should the space be that limited. You either have very small
labels or very big fonts!

Personally I would want production notes, cellar potential, and some
indication of grape varieties and residual sugar levels if that is not
otherwise obvious. Most of the rest I can work out for myself if
necessary.

Marketing bullshit and extravagent TNs are also good for a laugh :-)

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Dale Williams wrote:
> Tasting notes (if not from a source one has familiarity with) are of limited
> value. I've yet to find a food pairing on a wine label I thought helpful (but
> if you are bringing in a Muscadet, feel free to suggest mussels).
>
> I would be interested in the winemaker's view on optimal drinking window.
>
> If there is an INTERESTING story re the wine, vintner, or the name of the wine
> that can be fun.
>
> But to me, nothing is as valuable as production notes. What is the cepage? When
> were vines planted? What are yields? Barrel fermentation or stainless? Aged in
> stainless or oak? Barrique or foudre? What percentage of barrels are new?
> Maceration method? Etc. etc. etc. Will these things tell me what a wine will
> taste like? Well, not really. But it will give me some clue as to whether a
> wine is made in a style that might fit in with my preferences and biases.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Dale on this one. I think that Paul
Draper's notes on the back of Ridge wines are a model for useful back
label information. Be forewarned, though, that if you're placing this
on a bottle of imported wine (say, from Austria) you'd better make sure
that you have a good translator on board.

Mark Lipton

On 05 May 2004 20:36:17 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>oh, yeah, one other thought:
>
>following what appeals to a geek crowd might not be the way to financial
>success. I might not like it, but back labels singing of "vanilla and cherry
>flavors bursting out in a cascade of fruit, a perfect accompaniment for beef,
>chicken, lemon sole, asparagus, or guacamole. Our winemaker was promising actor
>before hormore therapy went awry" might sell more than notes re cold
>maceration.
>Dale
>
>Dale Williams
>Drop "damnspam" to reply

Despite the prominence of your tongue in your cheek, I'll have to lean
more toward this response rather than the first. Frankly, despite
years of imbibing, I've got no technical expertise with regard to
production. Give me a lecture on sources of oak for the barrels,
percentage of nickel in the stainless tanks, degrees of viagra
tetrachloride hydroxinol in the first two weeks of fermentation and my
eyes roll up in my head.

Give me a litany of names of viticultural giants and the odds are that
I'll not recognize any with less notoriety than Dom Perignon with his
bubbles and the Gallo Brothers with their incredibly rich
grand-daughter.

On the other hand, tell me a bit of what to look for in the tasting
and do it in meaningful language not menu-writer's hyperbole and I'll
have a much more meaningful experience when I pull the cork.

Humor in an apocryphal tale of the winery is also occasionally
pleasant.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"winemonger" > wrote in message
om...
> What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
>
> Tasting notes?
> Production notes?
> Cellar potential?
> Food pairing recommendation?
> Some story about the vintner or the region?
> Something else entirely?
>
> Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the
most.

Well, I do read the FRONT label. The back label is pretty much marketing
hype. "this sauvignon blanc goes great with blander Chinese food." Okay? Now
what? Would like to how they made the thing..

The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a particular
wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and 3) how it was
aged.

The "Back Label" tells you how the winemakers want to market it. Just my
two cents.

Rich R.

"Rich R" > wrote in
:



> The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a
> particular wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and
> 3) how it was aged.
>
>

???? Not in my experience. Occassionally that informatin is on the rear. On
the front one finds manufacturer and place of manufacture (on french wines
one will also find whether the grapes were estate grown or if it is a
negociant wine), vintage, varietal (in US wines) and strength of alcohol
(sometimes found on back label) but I hve yet to see on any wines that I
buy a statement of stell tank, hot cold or otherwise, and the aging method
is likewise not usually mentined. (Note I drink mostly French and Italian
wines so YMMV)

>The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a particular
>wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and 3) how it was
>aged.

Really? Number 1 probably yes, but most front labels I see don't tell how wine
is fermented or aged.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Hi Ed:

>Frankly, despite
>years of imbibing, I've got no technical expertise with regard to
>production.

Me either.

> Give me a lecture on sources of oak for the barrels,
>percentage of nickel in the stainless tanks, degrees of viagra
>tetrachloride hydroxinol in the first two weeks of fermentation and my
>eyes roll up in my head.
>
I'm just saying if you were faced with a back label on a California Chardonnay
that said " full malolactic fermentation, aged one year in 100% new heavily
toasted barrels" you'd have a pretty good clue re style, right?

>
>On the other hand, tell me a bit of what to look for in the tasting
>and do it in meaningful language not menu-writer's hyperbole and I'll
>have a much more meaningful experience when I pull the cork.
>
Well, yes, but the point is when there are tasting notes on the back label
hyperbole is the rule, not the exception. And not knowing the writer's palate,
notes are pretty useless.

>Humor in an apocryphal tale of the winery is also occasionally
>pleasant.
>
Now that I agree on. I love serving Goats Do Roam, Dead Arm, La Spinona, and
other wines with stories.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in
:

> Hi Ed:
>
>>Frankly, despite
>>years of imbibing, I've got no technical expertise with regard to
>>production.
>
> Me either.
>
>> Give me a lecture on sources of oak for the barrels,
>>percentage of nickel in the stainless tanks, degrees of viagra
>>tetrachloride hydroxinol in the first two weeks of fermentation and my
>>eyes roll up in my head.
>>
> I'm just saying if you were faced with a back label on a California
> Chardonnay that said " full malolactic fermentation, aged one year in
> 100% new heavily toasted barrels" you'd have a pretty good clue re
> style, right?
>
>
LOL

"winemonger" > wrote in message
om...
> What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?

Take a look at any of the bottles from Ridge Vineyards. That covers it all,
pretty much, and leaves out the fluff.

Tom S

On 06 May 2004 00:57:37 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a particular
>>wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and 3) how it was
>>aged.
>
>Really? Number 1 probably yes, but most front labels I see don't tell how wine
>is fermented or aged.
>
And even with 1), this may be a pretty broad area, e.g. "California".

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

"jcoulter" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

> "Rich R" > wrote in
> :
> > The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a
> > particular wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and
> > 3) how it was aged.
> >
> ???? Not in my experience. Occassionally that informatin is on the rear.
On
> the front one finds manufacturer and place of manufacture (on french wines
> one will also find whether the grapes were estate grown or if it is a
> negociant wine), vintage, varietal (in US wines) and strength of alcohol
> (sometimes found on back label) but I hve yet to see on any wines that I
> buy a statement of stell tank, hot cold or otherwise, and the aging method
> is likewise not usually mentined. (Note I drink mostly French and Italian
> wines so YMMV)

Well, it may just be what one considers to be the front label. :-)
An instructor in a course I once took asked which side of the bottle you put
the wine label on. Laughter followed and several said immediately, "Why on
the front, of course!" To which he replied, "And who determines where the
front of the bottle is?"

Reka



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"Dale Williams" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> Hi Ed:
>
....
> I'm just saying if you were faced with a back label on a California
Chardonnay
> that said " full malolactic fermentation, aged one year in 100% new
heavily
> toasted barrels" you'd have a pretty good clue re style, right?

.... to wit, a wine that has been hit repeatedly over the head with a heavy
oak cudgel to make it behave itself and sit still in the glass, no?

>
> >Humor in an apocryphal tale of the winery is also occasionally
> >pleasant.

Listen, I could send you both a picture of M Dirler´s horse, would that be
OK?

Seriously, I agree with both posters.

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

(winemonger) wrote:

> What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?

Indication of residual sugar is the info I miss most. When outside
Austria (where the sweetness lavel legally has to be stated on
the label), I often try to chose an Alsace white to start with,
generally offering the best QPR. The only problem: Nobody will
know whether a Riesling Cuvée Anémone or a Pinot Gris Réserve
Particulière will be sweet or not.

M.

On 5 May 2004 12:51:50 -0700, (winemonger) said:

] What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
]

More specifics would be nice, although I think technical details
like 100% malolactic are lost on 99% of the wine drinking public,
and might even put people off.

I'd like to know the encepagement, with percentages, and average
vine age if meaningful.

I have a pet peeve about "traditional varieties" and "ancient vines"
on the back label. The former implies a knowledge not always
present and lacks enough detail to be meaningful in some cases,
the latter could mean just about anything: greater than 20 years,
perhaps?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"Reka" > wrote in
:

> Well, it may just be what one considers to be the front label. :-)
> An instructor in a course I once took asked which side of the bottle
> you put the wine label on. Laughter followed and several said
> immediately, "Why on the front, of course!" To which he replied, "And
> who determines where the front of the bottle is?"
>
> Reka


"On the outside" - I believe is actually the correct answer

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> "Our winemaker was promising actor
> before hormone therapy went awry"

Would that be Helen Turley? ;^D

S moT

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> I'm just saying if you were faced with a back label on a California
Chardonnay
> that said " full malolactic fermentation, aged one year in 100% new
heavily
> toasted barrels" you'd have a pretty good clue re style, right?

That's almost _exactly_ how *my* back label reads! Well, part of it
anyway...

Tom S
Chteau Burbank

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> I love serving Goats Do Roam, Dead Arm, La Spinona, and
> other wines with stories.

Such as Le Cigare Volante and Casillero del Diablo.

Tom S

"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
...
> On 5 May 2004 12:51:50 -0700, (winemonger)
> >Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the
most.
>
> Why should the space be that limited. You either have very small
> labels or very big fonts!

While you _might_ be able to fit "War and Peace" on a Bordeaux bottle, those
slope shouldered, squat, fat Burgundy shaped bottles have rather limited
vertical space. Less than 10cm for some of them.

Tom S

> > Well, it may just be what one considers to be the front label. :-)
> > An instructor in a course I once took asked which side of the bottle
> > you put the wine label on. Laughter followed and several said
> > immediately, "Why on the front, of course!" To which he replied, "And
> > who determines where the front of the bottle is?"
> >
>
>
> "On the outside" - I believe is actually the correct answer

Unless you are the U.S. government. For them, the official front
label is the one which contains all their requiried information such
as winery name, appelation (if applicable,) alcohol content, varietal,
and origin. So what often happens is that what we might consider to
be the "back" label, the government calls the "front (brand)" label.
Not very interesting, just trivia to share.

Michael Pronay > wrote in message news:
> Indication of residual sugar is the info I miss most. When outside
> Austria (where the sweetness lavel legally has to be stated on
> the label), I often try to chose an Alsace white to start with,
> generally offering the best QPR. The only problem: Nobody will
> know whether a Riesling Cuvée Anémone or a Pinot Gris Réserve
> Particulière will be sweet or not.
>
> M.

A few people mentioned wanting to know residual sugar levels. I think
that while almost everyone would agree that they would like to know if
the wine is sweet or not, many wouldn't know how to relate a residual
sugar count to tell them that. How about if every wine carried the
simple-talk distinction of "sweet white/red wine" or "dry white/red
wine?" In cases of off-dry, it can then be mentioned in the notes
about the wine.
Then, for those that really want the nitty gritty, the numbers can be
found easily elsewhere (say, on the website of the importer perhaps)
Good compromise?

e.winemonger

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message news:
> following what appeals to a geek crowd might not be the way to financial
> success. I might not like it, but back labels singing of "vanilla and cherry
> flavors bursting out in a cascade of fruit, a perfect accompaniment for beef,
> chicken, lemon sole, asparagus, or guacamole. Our winemaker was promising actor
> before hormore therapy went awry" might sell more than notes re cold
> maceration.
> Dale

I don't know, Dale..."cold maceration" is pretty sexy stuff.
But yes, finding that balance between interesting information and
frank selling language is certainly the trick.

Mark Lipton > wrote in message >...
> Dale Williams wrote:
> > Tasting notes (if not from a source one has familiarity with) are of limited
> > value.

> Unsurprisingly, I agree with Dale on this one. I think that Paul
> Draper's notes on the back of Ridge wines are a model for useful back
> label information. Be forewarned, though, that if you're placing this
> on a bottle of imported wine (say, from Austria) you'd better make sure
> that you have a good translator on board.
>
> Mark Lipton

How about if that tasting note source is the vintner? That's if,
let's just say for the purpose of wild amusement, that we are talking
about imported wines from Austria and we are sure that the translation
is perfect. Perhaps if it comes from the horses mouth it might be
interesting for novices and cork-dorks alike?
e.winemonger
(p.s. Those Ridge notes are really great. Wonder how many folks
read them all the way through?)

>A few people mentioned wanting to know residual sugar levels. I think
>that while almost everyone would agree that they would like to know if
>the wine is sweet or not, many wouldn't know how to relate a residual
>sugar count to tell them that. How about if every wine carried the
>simple-talk distinction of "sweet white/red wine" or "dry white/red
>wine?" In cases of off-dry, it can then be mentioned in the notes
>about the wine.
>Then, for those that really want the nitty gritty, the numbers can be
>found easily elsewhere (say, on the website of the importer perhaps)
>Good compromise?
>
Olivier Humbrecht (and I think some other Alsatian producers) have started
doing a scale of "apparent sweetness" (since residual sugar isn't the only
factor, acidity especially affects *perception* of sweetness). As ZH wines are
all over the place in sweetness, I think I'll find that very helpful. Terry
Thiese has a similar scale in his catalogs, though not on labels.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On Thu, 6 May 2004 13:00:52 -0700, "Tom S"
> wrote:

>
>"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On 5 May 2004 12:51:50 -0700, (winemonger)
>> >Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the
>most.
>>
>> Why should the space be that limited. You either have very small
>> labels or very big fonts!
>
>While you _might_ be able to fit "War and Peace" on a Bordeaux bottle, those
>slope shouldered, squat, fat Burgundy shaped bottles have rather limited
>vertical space. Less than 10cm for some of them.

So for 5 lines, that is 2cm height per line! That is what I call a
BIG font. OK, you might want to include a bar code and other stuff,
but even so...

I'm not advocating War and Peace, but I feel that if information is
useful, space should be made for it.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On 6 May 2004 13:35:57 -0700, (winemonger)
wrote:

>A few people mentioned wanting to know residual sugar levels. I think
>that while almost everyone would agree that they would like to know if
>the wine is sweet or not, many wouldn't know how to relate a residual
>sugar count to tell them that. How about if every wine carried the
>simple-talk distinction of "sweet white/red wine" or "dry white/red
>wine?" In cases of off-dry, it can then be mentioned in the notes
>about the wine.

When *I* said residual sugar, I personally meant an indication such as
medium-dry or whatever. But putting a number on the residual sugar
would not hurt either. It does not take up much space, and the more
oftern such numbers are used the easier we can all relate to the
numbers.

>Then, for those that really want the nitty gritty, the numbers can be
>found easily elsewhere (say, on the website of the importer perhaps)
>Good compromise?

For me, yes. But not all wines have informative websites, and not all
drinkers have easy web access.

Here's a suggestion: give each of your wines a specific and permantent
URL, rather than just the URL for the producer/importer.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

"Michael Pronay" > skrev i melding
...
> (winemonger) wrote:
>
> > What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
>
> Indication of residual sugar is the info I miss most. When outside
> Austria (where the sweetness lavel legally has to be stated on
> the label), I often try to chose an Alsace white to start with,
> generally offering the best QPR. The only problem: Nobody will
> know whether a Riesling Cuvée Anémone or a Pinot Gris Réserve
> Particulière will be sweet or not.
>
Not even the vendor? But I'd like to see that too, myself :-)
Anders

"Rich R" > wrote in message
...
>
> "winemonger" > wrote in message
> om...
> > What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
> >
> > Tasting notes?
> > Production notes?
> > Cellar potential?
> > Food pairing recommendation?
> > Some story about the vintner or the region?
> > Something else entirely?
> >
> > Keep in mind that the space is very limited. Say, 5 or 6 lines at the
> most.
>
> Well, I do read the FRONT label. The back label is pretty much marketing
> hype. "this sauvignon blanc goes great with blander Chinese food." Okay?
Now
> what? Would like to how they made the thing..
>
> The Front Label tells you everything you need to know about a particular
> wine. 1) where it was grown, 2) how it was fermented, and 3) how it was
> aged.
>
> The "Back Label" tells you how the winemakers want to market it. Just my
> two cents.
>
> Rich R.
>
The front label tells me the following

--appellation (or just "central coast". That's okay by me.
--vineyard
--varietal (maybe)
--percent alcohol
--for residual sugar: sec, demi sec, brut, extra brut. And with German
wines, well you get it.

Front label works for me.

Rich R.

Steve Slatcher > wrote in message news:
> Here's a suggestion: give each of your wines a specific and permantent
> URL, rather than just the URL for the producer/importer.

Actually, I think we're going to do you one better there. But you'll
have to wait and see. Hopefully it will be a good answer to a lot of
these great suggestions.

On 6 May 2004 19:10:09 -0700, (winemonger)
wrote:

>Steve Slatcher > wrote in message news:
>> Here's a suggestion: give each of your wines a specific and permantent
>> URL, rather than just the URL for the producer/importer.
>
>Actually, I think we're going to do you one better there. But you'll
>have to wait and see.

May I ask who "you" are in this context? Go on... give us a clue. I
know there was talk of an Italian scheme to use the Web to identify
bottle batches.

This business of assigning URLs to wines is one of my pet topics - as
any friend who shows the slightest hint of interest in the subject can
witness :-) I think wine info (maybe on a batch basis) should be
provided as XML (RDF probably) assesable via HTTP URLS.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

(winemonger) wrote:

>> Indication of residual sugar is the info I miss most. When
>> outside Austria (where the sweetness lavel legally has to be
>> stated on the label), I often try to chose an Alsace white to
>> start with, generally offering the best QPR. The only problem:
>> Nobody will know whether a Riesling Cuvée Anémone or a Pinot
>> Gris Réserve Particulière will be sweet or not.

> A few people mentioned wanting to know residual sugar levels. I
> think that while almost everyone would agree that they would
> like to know if the wine is sweet or not, many wouldn't know how
> to relate a residual sugar count to tell them that. How about
> if every wine carried the simple-talk distinction of "sweet
> white/red wine" or "dry white/red wine?" In cases of off-dry,
> it can then be mentioned in the notes about the wine.

The most simple solution would be to stick to already existing
sweetness brackets defined by EU law in grams per liter (10 g/l
of residual sugar corresponding to 1%):

0 - 4 (9)* dry
4 - 12 (18)** half dry
12 - 45 semi sweet
over 45 sweet

*) Normally 4 g/l is the limit, but in Germany and Austria the
"dry" bracket is extended to 9 g/l depending on acidity level.

**) Normally 12 g/l is the limit, but in Germany the "half dry"
bracket is extended to 18 g/l depending on acidity level.

Every bottle of wine bottled or sold in Austria has to carry one
of these four designations. And it would be one of these mentions
I would like to see on the labels.

M.

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote:

>> When outside Austria (where the sweetness lavel legally has to
>> be stated on the label), I often try to chose an Alsace white
>> to start with, generally offering the best QPR. The only
>> problem: Nobody will know whether a Riesling Cuvée Anémone or a
>> Pinot Gris Réserve Particulière will be sweet or not.

> Not even the vendor? But I'd like to see that too, myself :-)

The problem I'm referring to quite obviously is linked to
restaurants - not to wine shops.

M.

"Rich R" > wrote:

> --for residual sugar: sec, demi sec, brut, extra brut.

The last two notions refer to sparkling wine, not to still table
wine.

M.

I forgot to add what I'd REALLY like to see on back label- a temperature
sensor. The technology (a spot that changes color if temp goes above a certain
point) has been around for a while. I did hear some super-super-premium Spanish
wine is putting them on.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

winemonger wrote:

> Mark Lipton > wrote in message >...
>
>>Dale Williams wrote:
>>
>>>Tasting notes (if not from a source one has familiarity with) are of limited
>>>value.
>
>
>>Unsurprisingly, I agree with Dale on this one. I think that Paul
>>Draper's notes on the back of Ridge wines are a model for useful back
>>label information. Be forewarned, though, that if you're placing this
>>on a bottle of imported wine (say, from Austria) you'd better make sure
>>that you have a good translator on board.
>>
>>Mark Lipton
>
>
> How about if that tasting note source is the vintner? That's if,
> let's just say for the purpose of wild amusement, that we are talking
> about imported wines from Austria and we are sure that the translation
> is perfect. Perhaps if it comes from the horses mouth it might be
> interesting for novices and cork-dorks alike?

That's what I was assuming, actually. A back label quoting the importer
is, frankly, far less interesting and persuasive than one that quotes
the vintner.

> (p.s. Those Ridge notes are really great. Wonder how many folks
> read them all the way through?)

I can only speak for myself, but I use those notes to help quide my
decision about the wine's ageworthiness.

On 5 May 2004 12:51:50 -0700, (winemonger)
wrote:

>What kind of information do you like to find on the back label?
>


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