Hi all,

A friend of mine attended a tasting in Maryland where he tasted some 30 of
the wines there. I thought you might be amused by his notes. (posted with
his permission and that of the group moderators).

I also quote his rider - first.

"The caveat being that this was a tasting of a vast number of wines under
less than ideal circumstances, with my scanty notes becoming scantier and
less legible as the hours went on."

====================

Subj : Wine in the Woods
================================================== =================
As one might expect,Maryland wines, although they have come a long way,
are not up to the standard of New York, say, or even Virginia. New York
seems to have tamed the labrusca monster; anyhow, the wine-making areas seem
to have mostly eradicated that grape (the danger being inadvertent hybrids).

Virginia is on the way; and Maryland, well, from the tastes, not quite. On
the other hand, we had such a fun time. that we thought about calling our
friends and telling them to come over anyway, but it was $20 admission,
which was a bit steep. We met our friend Eden, a festival volunteer,
at the mall parking lot across the way (fewer crowds), and we went down to
Symphony Woods where there was a huge old line for tickets, boding well for
the health of the festival anyhow.

The wines were not anything to write home about, and I didn't take many
notes; but herewith are capsule descriptions of some 30 wines you will, with
any luck, never have the need to taste. Some of them had some strengths, but
these had notable - sometimes fatal - flaws as well. Most of them were
sweetish, mass-market- style wines that you'd not turn a leaf at.

You get 10 tastes with your ticket, as well as a "tasting glass" (smallish
glass, but tapered to concentrate the aromas a bit) to commemorate the
occasion. As there were 3 of us, and as we bought several additional tastes
a la carte, we got to try 30-something wines.

Fiore Winery, Pylesville

Cabernet Sauvignon - fairly complex, but oddly, no acid to go with the
tannic quality. Maybe gone dumb.

Cabernet Franc - more to my taste, with a decent balance and some fruit
aromas. Still dull.

Caronte - Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Merlot - confusing. Some pleasant
aspects, but a bit of a duskiness (Sangiovese) that seemed out of character.

Scarlette - Carol liked this because it tasted just like Concord grape
juice. I didn't like it because it tasted just like Concord grape juice.

Cygnus Winecellars, Manchester Julian (Bordeaux blend) 1997 - same issues as
the Fiore Cab, too little acid, so it tasted dead.

Late Harvest Vidal Blanc Seven Valley Vineyard 1999 - quite sweet, light
body, apricotty, some prunes, not much finish

Loew Vineyards, Mount Airy
Cabernet Sauvignon - a bit of a lightweight; I am surprised that it was
labeled as such.

Country Classic - grapes (unknown kind, probably surplus) and raspberries
fermented together. Bright raspberry aroma but a quality that reminded me of
sweet-sour sauce in a bad Chinese restaurant.

Serendipity - their literature claims that this has a pineapple aroma. Not
quite; I'd say undefinable citrus, some stone fruit, a little cloying.

Blueberry - just like blueberry pie, so I suppose it must be true to its
type. I'd have liked a dash of cinnamon in mine.

Catoctin Winery, Brookeville
Pinot Noir - light red, cherry flavor; too unconcentrated but not
objectionable.

Cabernet Sauvignon - "the wine of the decade" says the literature; I'd say
not even the wine of the moment. A nothing wine.

Mer de Glace - 13% residual sugar, quite sweet, bubble-gummy, a bit of that
Muscat taste, no depth.

Linganore Cellars, Mount Airy

Steeple Chase Red - I forget this; I think it was light red and sort of
sweetish.

Berrywine Raspberry - lots of raspberries, and I think rotten ones.

Bacioli dry red - also unmemorable.

Boordy Vineyards, Hydes
Cabernet Franc - cedary; I think this is the wine that we thought smelled
like old muskrat, but I'm not sure.

Syrah Chambourcin - a bright, interesting, somewhat peppery wine.

Seyval-Vidal-Chardonnay Coastal Cuvee - rather ho-hum, medicinal.

Sparkling Cuvee - not bad, bit of Pinot and Chard flavors I thought.

Sangria "party in a bottle" - what saved it was the orange juice in it.
Otherwise it tasted like bad red wine (and not the Boordy wines I tasted,
either, more like the Fiore.

Elk Run Vineyards, Mount Airy
Champagne - the stench of this wine could not be believed.

Port - this wine had nice stone fruit and a warm portiness on the tongue,
but it was undone by a terrifically bad finish.

Vin de Jus Glace - very sweet; cloying. No guts. Some ripe fruity smells but
nothing interesting.

Woodhall Cellars, Parkton
Cabernet Sauvignon - unmemorable.

Chambourcin - very light, unmemorable.

Parkton Prestige - 70 Cab Sauv, 25 Merlot, 5 Cab Franc; but oddly, it tasted
more Cab Francy than anything else. I am wondering whether Cab Sauv vines
grow tasteless grapes in Maryland. They're charging $22 a bottle for this
stuff. I shake my head.

Party Garnet "party in a bottle" - light pink flavor. Light pink color.
Think White Zin on a lower order.

Riesling - empty of flavor, empty of color. Not quite true; the color was
actually white; not greenish, yellowish, or any of that: white.

Penn Oaks Winery, Silver Spring

Gewurz - citrusy, scanty spice, not unpleasant: I actually bought a bottle
of this to go with the crab dip and crab cake sandwich we bought from one
of the stalls. The crab dip was very creamy and cheesy but actually had some
crab in it; the crab cake tasted of Indian spices (not bad) but also
was quite bready (not good); brought out the good qualities of the wine,
though.

Mosel - they claim this to be their driest wine; it's borderline too sweet;
fairly grapy and pineapply, rather waterlike.

Montepulciano - they say that it would go well with strong cheese; maybe so,
because it has a pretty strong animally aroma and finish, with a meaty
palate.

Cabernet Sauvignon - pleasantly tannic, balanced oak; tolerable.

Went to the demonstration tent, where we discovered
we'd missed the red wine tasting; sat for the whites,
which were presented with a "cicada" theme; i.e.,
what kind of cicada dish would match with each wine.
Har har har.

Linganore Terrapin White - a very nothing wine: even the lecturer likened it
to water. Artificial pears, maybe.

Catoctin Sauvignon Blanc - fair amount of oak, buttery and cheesy; some
grass and various fruits.

Woodhall Chardonnay - funny oak; thought this wine was a bit off. But some
nice citrus on the nose.

Fiore Chardonnay - Sweat Sox, said Eden; I didn't think it quite that bad; a
bit of toasty oak and some fruit cocktailly aspect. There was an off
smell that I couldn't place.

Basignani Chardonnay 2000 - grapy, undistinguished; no oak on nose, some new
oak on palate.

Probably the best thing we tasted was the Le Mousseux, which not only was
from Virginia, it wasn't wine at all. It was artificially effervescent
cider. Although on the sweet side, it had a bright I was so pleased
that I bought a bottle of it, and we wandered through the crowd swilling it
with idiotic smiles on as though we were complete lushes.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Interesting notes. I actually sold the Le Mousseaux as well as wines for
Basignani & Loew.

The serious wines are not poured at any wine festivals in Maryland--my
friends Lynn and Bert Basignani have learned that to compete at the
festivals the wines have to be sweet. Bertero's Lorenzino and his
chardonnays are to me first class wines. Rob Lyons of Catoctin started at
Ch Montelena and has some great cabs & chards at their tasting room, Tom
Burns at Boordy apprenticed at Pa's Allegro under the late John Crouch who
was the regions premier wine-maker.

I just tasted wines for the VA Governors Cup. Wines from this region are a
lot better than 20 years ago. I'd rate the Finger Lakes as the best
viticultural area in the East--MD & VA and Long Island are a step or so
behind. Virginia is better on dry whites then Md but Md cabs and chambourcin
are better than Va's.

To get a more balanced perspective you really need to visit Basignani and
Catoctin. Of the rest of them Woodhall and Boordy have done some good things
especially with Seyval. Mike Fiore, Fred Wilson(Elk Run) and Bill Loew are
talented winemakers but they have never have concentrated on making world
class wines-family businesses are like that. I've not tasted much Penn Oaks
and Cygnus to form an opinion. Linganore is great on marketing but
embarrassment on wine.

I'm working on my VA notes, I can't release them until June 3.



--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> A friend of mine attended a tasting in Maryland where he tasted some 30 of
> the wines there. I thought you might be amused by his notes. (posted with
> his permission and that of the group moderators).
>
> I also quote his rider - first.
>
> "The caveat being that this was a tasting of a vast number of wines under
> less than ideal circumstances, with my scanty notes becoming scantier and
> less legible as the hours went on."
>
> ====================
>
> Subj : Wine in the Woods
> ================================================== =================
> As one might expect,Maryland wines, although they have come a long way,
> are not up to the standard of New York, say, or even Virginia. New York
> seems to have tamed the labrusca monster; anyhow, the wine-making areas
seem
> to have mostly eradicated that grape (the danger being inadvertent
hybrids).
>
> Virginia is on the way; and Maryland, well, from the tastes, not quite. On
> the other hand, we had such a fun time. that we thought about calling our
> friends and telling them to come over anyway, but it was $20 admission,
> which was a bit steep. We met our friend Eden, a festival volunteer,
> at the mall parking lot across the way (fewer crowds), and we went down to
> Symphony Woods where there was a huge old line for tickets, boding well
for
> the health of the festival anyhow.
>
> The wines were not anything to write home about, and I didn't take many
> notes; but herewith are capsule descriptions of some 30 wines you will,
with
> any luck, never have the need to taste. Some of them had some strengths,
but
> these had notable - sometimes fatal - flaws as well. Most of them were
> sweetish, mass-market- style wines that you'd not turn a leaf at.
>
> You get 10 tastes with your ticket, as well as a "tasting glass" (smallish
> glass, but tapered to concentrate the aromas a bit) to commemorate the
> occasion. As there were 3 of us, and as we bought several additional
tastes
> a la carte, we got to try 30-something wines.
>
> Fiore Winery, Pylesville
>
> Cabernet Sauvignon - fairly complex, but oddly, no acid to go with the
> tannic quality. Maybe gone dumb.
>
> Cabernet Franc - more to my taste, with a decent balance and some fruit
> aromas. Still dull.
>
> Caronte - Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Merlot - confusing. Some
pleasant
> aspects, but a bit of a duskiness (Sangiovese) that seemed out of
character.
>
> Scarlette - Carol liked this because it tasted just like Concord grape
> juice. I didn't like it because it tasted just like Concord grape juice.
>
> Cygnus Winecellars, Manchester Julian (Bordeaux blend) 1997 - same issues
as
> the Fiore Cab, too little acid, so it tasted dead.
>
> Late Harvest Vidal Blanc Seven Valley Vineyard 1999 - quite sweet, light
> body, apricotty, some prunes, not much finish
>
> Loew Vineyards, Mount Airy
> Cabernet Sauvignon - a bit of a lightweight; I am surprised that it was
> labeled as such.
>
> Country Classic - grapes (unknown kind, probably surplus) and raspberries
> fermented together. Bright raspberry aroma but a quality that reminded me
of
> sweet-sour sauce in a bad Chinese restaurant.
>
> Serendipity - their literature claims that this has a pineapple aroma. Not
> quite; I'd say undefinable citrus, some stone fruit, a little cloying.
>
> Blueberry - just like blueberry pie, so I suppose it must be true to its
> type. I'd have liked a dash of cinnamon in mine.
>
> Catoctin Winery, Brookeville
> Pinot Noir - light red, cherry flavor; too unconcentrated but not
> objectionable.
>
> Cabernet Sauvignon - "the wine of the decade" says the literature; I'd say
> not even the wine of the moment. A nothing wine.
>
> Mer de Glace - 13% residual sugar, quite sweet, bubble-gummy, a bit of
that
> Muscat taste, no depth.
>
> Linganore Cellars, Mount Airy
>
> Steeple Chase Red - I forget this; I think it was light red and sort of
> sweetish.
>
> Berrywine Raspberry - lots of raspberries, and I think rotten ones.
>
> Bacioli dry red - also unmemorable.
>
> Boordy Vineyards, Hydes
> Cabernet Franc - cedary; I think this is the wine that we thought smelled
> like old muskrat, but I'm not sure.
>
> Syrah Chambourcin - a bright, interesting, somewhat peppery wine.
>
> Seyval-Vidal-Chardonnay Coastal Cuvee - rather ho-hum, medicinal.
>
> Sparkling Cuvee - not bad, bit of Pinot and Chard flavors I thought.
>
> Sangria "party in a bottle" - what saved it was the orange juice in it.
> Otherwise it tasted like bad red wine (and not the Boordy wines I tasted,
> either, more like the Fiore.
>
> Elk Run Vineyards, Mount Airy
> Champagne - the stench of this wine could not be believed.
>
> Port - this wine had nice stone fruit and a warm portiness on the tongue,
> but it was undone by a terrifically bad finish.
>
> Vin de Jus Glace - very sweet; cloying. No guts. Some ripe fruity smells
but
> nothing interesting.
>
> Woodhall Cellars, Parkton
> Cabernet Sauvignon - unmemorable.
>
> Chambourcin - very light, unmemorable.
>
> Parkton Prestige - 70 Cab Sauv, 25 Merlot, 5 Cab Franc; but oddly, it
tasted
> more Cab Francy than anything else. I am wondering whether Cab Sauv vines
> grow tasteless grapes in Maryland. They're charging $22 a bottle for this
> stuff. I shake my head.
>
> Party Garnet "party in a bottle" - light pink flavor. Light pink color.
> Think White Zin on a lower order.
>
> Riesling - empty of flavor, empty of color. Not quite true; the color was
> actually white; not greenish, yellowish, or any of that: white.
>
> Penn Oaks Winery, Silver Spring
>
> Gewurz - citrusy, scanty spice, not unpleasant: I actually bought a bottle
> of this to go with the crab dip and crab cake sandwich we bought from one
> of the stalls. The crab dip was very creamy and cheesy but actually had
some
> crab in it; the crab cake tasted of Indian spices (not bad) but also
> was quite bready (not good); brought out the good qualities of the wine,
> though.
>
> Mosel - they claim this to be their driest wine; it's borderline too
sweet;
> fairly grapy and pineapply, rather waterlike.
>
> Montepulciano - they say that it would go well with strong cheese; maybe
so,
> because it has a pretty strong animally aroma and finish, with a meaty
> palate.
>
> Cabernet Sauvignon - pleasantly tannic, balanced oak; tolerable.
>
> Went to the demonstration tent, where we discovered
> we'd missed the red wine tasting; sat for the whites,
> which were presented with a "cicada" theme; i.e.,
> what kind of cicada dish would match with each wine.
> Har har har.
>
> Linganore Terrapin White - a very nothing wine: even the lecturer likened
it
> to water. Artificial pears, maybe.
>
> Catoctin Sauvignon Blanc - fair amount of oak, buttery and cheesy; some
> grass and various fruits.
>
> Woodhall Chardonnay - funny oak; thought this wine was a bit off. But some
> nice citrus on the nose.
>
> Fiore Chardonnay - Sweat Sox, said Eden; I didn't think it quite that bad;
a
> bit of toasty oak and some fruit cocktailly aspect. There was an off
> smell that I couldn't place.
>
> Basignani Chardonnay 2000 - grapy, undistinguished; no oak on nose, some
new
> oak on palate.
>
> Probably the best thing we tasted was the Le Mousseux, which not only was
> from Virginia, it wasn't wine at all. It was artificially effervescent
> cider. Although on the sweet side, it had a bright I was so pleased
> that I bought a bottle of it, and we wandered through the crowd swilling
it
> with idiotic smiles on as though we were complete lushes.
>
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Joe Rosenberg,

Thanks for coming back! I rather had you in my sights when I asked Michael
for his permission to repost his notes here!

le/on Sat, 22 May 2004 23:28:35 -0400, tu disais/you said:-

>The serious wines are not poured at any wine festivals in Maryland--my
>friends Lynn and Bert Basignani have learned that to compete at the
>festivals the wines have to be sweet.

Yes, our mutual (Michael & me) friends Dale & Gail had warned him that this
was the case.

> Bertero's Lorenzino and his chardonnays are to me first class wines.

By what criteria? By those of MD? Or by the same kind of standards I'd judge
a wine from anywhere else in the world?

You see, you say

>I just tasted wines for the VA Governors Cup. Wines from this region are a
>lot better than 20 years ago.

Which Michael confirms. But then you go on to say

>I'd rate the Finger Lakes as the best viticultural area in the East--MD & VA and Long Island are a step or so
>behind. Virginia is better on dry whites then Md but Md cabs and chambourcin
>are better than Va's.

Well, we visited Fox Run, I think it was- but in any case, a winery reputed
to be amongst the best in the area, in Finger Lakes, and while I found no
particular faults in the wines, I found no particular delight either. My
very first question to the winemaker was "what yields do you work to?" The
wines they had on tasting (including their premium ones) ALL tasted dilute
to me, as if they had been working on huge yields, the sort of yield one
found in wines from southern France selling at around 4F a litre. So if that
IS the best from the East, it's damning with faint praise - especially
taking prices into consideration.

If I sound harsh, I can only tell you that a couple of days ago, I met with
one of the guys that run the local "Co-op" at Branceilles, which sell a wine
they call "Mille et une Pierres". He asked me if I knew it, and what I
thought of it. "A little local wine overpriced by ‚¬3 a bottle. I compare it
with Coteaux de Glanes, with Cahors and Bergerac, and it simply doesn't
stack up I'm afraid. I get a couple of bottles a year out of solidarity, but
I buy 10 cases of the Glanes" "Ah monsieur", he replied, "you shouldn't
judge it like that, you should treat it as a 'local product'". I'm afraid
that did not sit well with me at all. "You mean overpriced stuff, only
selling because it's local?. No way, a wine must be capable of standing on
its own feet, judged against a wine from anywhere else in the world. And the
same goes for any other local produce. Otherwise you're ripping off your
customers in the most cynical manner."

So Joe, what I'm saying really, is that I don't think it's right to be
indulgent with wines from your home state, just _BECAUSE_ it's your home
state, or from the East, just because you're from the East, or from the USA
just because it's the USA. Of course the same goes for wines from France,
from Austria or from Australia, I have an Australian friend who drinks the
most awful muck in a bag in the box, and claims it's drinkable mianly
because it comes from Oz.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Chauvinism aside, California, Oregon and lately Washington State produce the
best wines in the US. IMHO the Finger Lakes are a notch behind for whites.
Our area, the Mid Atlantic states, have produced in my 25 years of tasting
about 2 dozen wines which could compete in world class competitions. This
is bottlings.
They include the seyre-villards of the late G.Hamilton Mowbray, some of the
late John Crouch's Allegro Vineyard's Cadenza from York County Pennsylvania,
some Basignani Chardonnay, the Byrd 1980 Cabernet made by Rob Lyons.

Regional pride propels sales within each state in the region and a desire to
support local industry. I've been about promoting these wine for 20 years or
so because good winemaking should be encouraged. Pricing is fair based on
market conditions. No one who has a meritage red or reserve cab(which
constitute the bulk of the over $20 retail wines) believes it can compete
with a similarly priced wine from a better region. But that does not mean
that winery owners can't expect a good return on their investment. Most of
these wines are sold out within a year or so of release. So they meet the
markets condition.

Most plantings in the East are of lambrusca and french-american hybrid
grapes until the early 1980's when vinifera was planted by serious
wine-makers. The best of the hybrids, seyre villard aka seyval blanc (dry
white) vidal(dessert) and chambourcin(red) make very serviceable wines on
their own. Its only we cork-dorks who seem offended by them. Through out
the world good, honestly made local wine is available and drunk contently by
natives and visitors. I've occasionally surprised fellow cork dorks with
Cadenza and the Basignani Chardonnay. I hope I can do the same for you one
day, Ian

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Joe Rosenberg,
>
> Thanks for coming back! I rather had you in my sights when I asked Michael
> for his permission to repost his notes here!
>
> le/on Sat, 22 May 2004 23:28:35 -0400, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >The serious wines are not poured at any wine festivals in Maryland--my
> >friends Lynn and Bert Basignani have learned that to compete at the
> >festivals the wines have to be sweet.
>
> Yes, our mutual (Michael & me) friends Dale & Gail had warned him that
this
> was the case.
>
> > Bertero's Lorenzino and his chardonnays are to me first class wines.
>
> By what criteria? By those of MD? Or by the same kind of standards I'd
judge
> a wine from anywhere else in the world?
>
> You see, you say
>
> >I just tasted wines for the VA Governors Cup. Wines from this region are
a
> >lot better than 20 years ago.
>
> Which Michael confirms. But then you go on to say
>
> >I'd rate the Finger Lakes as the best viticultural area in the East--MD &
VA and Long Island are a step or so
> >behind. Virginia is better on dry whites then Md but Md cabs and
chambourcin
> >are better than Va's.
>
> Well, we visited Fox Run, I think it was- but in any case, a winery
reputed
> to be amongst the best in the area, in Finger Lakes, and while I found no
> particular faults in the wines, I found no particular delight either. My
> very first question to the winemaker was "what yields do you work to?" The
> wines they had on tasting (including their premium ones) ALL tasted dilute
> to me, as if they had been working on huge yields, the sort of yield one
> found in wines from southern France selling at around 4F a litre. So if
that
> IS the best from the East, it's damning with faint praise - especially
> taking prices into consideration.
>
> If I sound harsh, I can only tell you that a couple of days ago, I met
with
> one of the guys that run the local "Co-op" at Branceilles, which sell a
wine
> they call "Mille et une Pierres". He asked me if I knew it, and what I
> thought of it. "A little local wine overpriced by ?3 a bottle. I compare
it
> with Coteaux de Glanes, with Cahors and Bergerac, and it simply doesn't
> stack up I'm afraid. I get a couple of bottles a year out of solidarity,
but
> I buy 10 cases of the Glanes" "Ah monsieur", he replied, "you shouldn't
> judge it like that, you should treat it as a 'local product'". I'm afraid
> that did not sit well with me at all. "You mean overpriced stuff, only
> selling because it's local?. No way, a wine must be capable of standing on
> its own feet, judged against a wine from anywhere else in the world. And
the
> same goes for any other local produce. Otherwise you're ripping off your
> customers in the most cynical manner."
>
> So Joe, what I'm saying really, is that I don't think it's right to be
> indulgent with wines from your home state, just _BECAUSE_ it's your home
> state, or from the East, just because you're from the East, or from the
USA
> just because it's the USA. Of course the same goes for wines from France,
> from Austria or from Australia, I have an Australian friend who drinks the
> most awful muck in a bag in the box, and claims it's drinkable mianly
> because it comes from Oz.
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>Elk Run Vineyards, Mount Airy
>Champagne - the stench of this wine could not be believed.
>
I'd believe it, having had a few mid-Atlantic state "Champagnes"

>Mosel -
>Montepulcian

This does bother me!


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Ian Hoare wrote:

> I compare it
> with Coteaux de Glanes, with Cahors and Bergerac, and it simply doesn't
> stack up I'm afraid.

Hrmmphh. I'd thought that I'd caught you out, but a trip down to the cellar showed me that -- of course -- you
are correct, and that Mille et Une Pierres is a VDP de la Correze, not a Coteaux de Glanes. Oh, well! ;-)

Mark Lipton

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sun, 23 May 2004 21:52:25 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> I compare it
>> with Coteaux de Glanes, with Cahors and Bergerac, and it simply doesn't
>> stack up I'm afraid.
>
>Hrmmphh. I'd thought that I'd caught you out, but a trip down to the cellar showed me that -- of course -- you
>are correct, and that Mille et Une Pierres is a VDP de la Correze, not a Coteaux de Glanes. Oh, well! ;-)

Oh goodness, Mark, I make so many mistakes, that all you've got to do is
wait half an hour! But not over Mille et une Pierres. Mais alors!! That
said, in recent years, it's not been a _bad_ wine, just overpriced for what
it is. You were with us in June 2001, so you'll probably have bought either
the normal cuvée 2000 or the '98 or '99 oak aged. I would think that in
either case, it would be ready for drinking soon. Have you had one yet?

The real thrust of my remarks of course, was that I feel it's dishonest to
charge through the nose because it's a "local product". I felt this was the
case for the Biltmore Estate, I felt it was the case in Texas, and I feel
it's the case for Mille et Une Pierres. I've no problems about paying a
premium when it's accompanied by excellence. But I don't feel any need to
support british wine makers (for example) irrespective of the quality (or
otherwise) of their wines, just because they are my fellow Brits. It's
_their_ choice to start up a vineyard in an area of only marginal viability,
high wages, and no tradition of winemaking. If their wines don't hack it in
vfm terms in comparison to similar wines from all over the world, then _I_
certainly don't feel duty bound to support them. And as far as I'm concerned
that applies to any product from anywhere. And I would not want or expect
any British visitor to pick ME out to stay with here, out of a misguided
sense of solidarity, just _because_ I'm British.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

> Oh goodness, Mark, I make so many mistakes, that all you've got to do is
> wait half an hour! But not over Mille et une Pierres. Mais alors!! That
> said, in recent years, it's not been a _bad_ wine, just overpriced for what
> it is. You were with us in June 2001, so you'll probably have bought either
> the normal cuvée 2000 or the '98 or '99 oak aged. I would think that in
> either case, it would be ready for drinking soon. Have you had one yet?

It's the '99 oak aged. Had one back in 2001, but wanted to hold onto
this one for a few years to see how it developed. It's probably about
time to open it, though...

> The real thrust of my remarks of course, was that I feel it's dishonest to
> charge through the nose because it's a "local product". I felt this was the
> case for the Biltmore Estate, I felt it was the case in Texas, and I feel
> it's the case for Mille et Une Pierres. I've no problems about paying a
> premium when it's accompanied by excellence. But I don't feel any need to
> support british wine makers (for example) irrespective of the quality (or
> otherwise) of their wines, just because they are my fellow Brits. It's
> _their_ choice to start up a vineyard in an area of only marginal viability,
> high wages, and no tradition of winemaking. If their wines don't hack it in
> vfm terms in comparison to similar wines from all over the world, then _I_
> certainly don't feel duty bound to support them. And as far as I'm concerned
> that applies to any product from anywhere. And I would not want or expect
> any British visitor to pick ME out to stay with here, out of a misguided
> sense of solidarity, just _because_ I'm British.

I couldn't agree more.

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Ian Hoare wrote:
>
> > > The real thrust of my remarks of course, was that I feel it's
dishonest to
> > charge through the nose because it's a "local product". I felt
this was the
> > case for the Biltmore Estate, I felt it was the case in Texas, and
I feel
> > it's the case for Mille et Une Pierres. I've no problems about
paying a
> > premium when it's accompanied by excellence. But I don't feel any
need to
> > support british wine makers (for example) irrespective of the
quality (or
> > otherwise) of their wines, just because they are my fellow Brits.
It's
> > _their_ choice to start up a vineyard in an area of only marginal
viability,
> > high wages, and no tradition of winemaking. If their wines don't
hack it in
> > vfm terms in comparison to similar wines from all over the world,
then _I_
> > certainly don't feel duty bound to support them. And as far as I'm
concerned
> > that applies to any product from anywhere. And I would not want or
expect
> > any British visitor to pick ME out to stay with here, out of a
misguided
> > sense of solidarity, just _because_ I'm British.
>
> I couldn't agree more.
>
> Mark Lipton


As a Marylander, I wish I could say good things about the wines made
in my home State but often they are rather good examples of
"dreimänner Wein" or at best, uninteresting, and are sometimes made
from grapes grown some distance from the winery. Strangely, IMHO,
there *are* decent wines made on the other side of the Potomac river,
in Virginia just a few miles away.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

Joe Rosenberg > wrote:

: I just tasted wines for the VA Governors Cup. Wines from this region are a
: lot better than 20 years ago. I'd rate the Finger Lakes as the best
: viticultural area in the East--MD & VA and Long Island are a step or so
: behind. Virginia is better on dry whites then Md but Md cabs and chambourcin
: are better than Va's.

Oh my God, I can't disagree more. I've lived in MD for ~20 years and have
tasted many VA and MD wines over that time. Both have made remarkable
strides, but VA is far more mature (read better) than MD. The only winery
worth the trip in MD is Elk Run, who makes very nice Cabs (Sauvignon and
Franc) and a delicious port-style wine. I'm very liberal and forgiving
at tastings, but there were very few palatable wines at the Wine in the
Woods.

Virginia has many excellent Cabs which can compete with those on the left
coast (it also has some that suck). The 1998 Barboursville Cab Franc was
one of the best I've ever tasted anywhere. The balance and harmony were
shockingly spectacular. It's faded a bit now to show it's Merlot
contribution, but it's still very good.

: To get a more balanced perspective you really need to visit Basignani and
: Catoctin.

Catoctin is a few miles from my house (I live in Olney) and they are the
worst of the bunch. The unoaked Chardonnay is decent, but everything
else, whites and reds, are weak and reeking of oak.

: Linganore is great on marketing but
: embarrassment on wine.

On this we agree - if you want a juvenile fruit wine, Linganore is your
winery!

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Dave Bolvin


"Every man has the right to a glass of wine. And after a
glass of wine, you are a different man".
--------------------------------------------------------

dave bolvin wrote:
> Oh my God, I can't disagree more. I've lived in MD for ~20 years and have
> tasted many VA and MD wines over that time. Both have made remarkable
> strides, but VA is far more mature (read better) than MD. The only winery
> worth the trip in MD is Elk Run, who makes very nice Cabs (Sauvignon and
> Franc) and a delicious port-style wine. I'm very liberal and forgiving
> at tastings, but there were very few palatable wines at the Wine in the
> Woods.

I have watched both states wine industry grow. The father of Maryland
wines was Phillip Wagner who owned Boordy Vineyards. Wagner believed in
hybrids and American grapes. The father of the Virginia wine industry
was Ham Mowbray and he was a vinifera advocate.

I can say that I never had a Maryland wine that I thought was worth a
dollar a bottle. I helped Wagner and Mowbray harvest grapes but their
wines were just drinkable.

I have had some great Virginia wines specifically some Chardonnays from
Piedmont and Naked Mountain, and a Sauvignon Blanc from Linden
Vineyards. I have only had one Virginia red that I would ever drink
a second time and that was the Horton Norton.
Bill

Bill wrote:

> I have watched both states wine industry grow. The father of Maryland
> wines was Phillip Wagner who owned Boordy Vineyards. Wagner believed
> in hybrids and American grapes. The father of the Virginia wine
> industry was Ham Mowbray and he was a vinifera advocate.

I worked for the late Dr. Mowbray briefly in the late '80s before
medical school tore me away. I had been (and still am!) an amateur
winemaker and approached him about working for Montbray Wine Cellars for
free in exchange for the experience -- sort of an apprenticeship. He
replied with his usual cockey voice, "naw, I'll pay you".

When I showed up to work the next morning, I was the only one there,
apart from Ham. "Where are all your workers?", I asked. "You're it!", he
exclaimed.

I now understood the concept of a "micro-winery"! <g>

I worked for him for about a year, and for a few years after I would
help with the harvest. I had many conversations with Ham, and learned a
great deal about life, friendship and wine.

I was not aware of the influence he had on Virginia wines, Montbray
being in northern Maryland "close enough to Pennsylvania to spit over
the border -- and we often do!", as he would say. And although he
advocated vinifera, he was very much a strong proponent of hybrids, and
was instrumental in getting seyval (which he stubbornly called by its
actual name, seyve-villard) established in the US. He often told me of
the arguments he had had with Konstantine Frank -- now *there* was a
vinifera advocate -- who seemed convinced that hybrids were evil and
would even cause birth defects (barring fetal alcohol syndrome)! I
don't know if he actually ever said this, as Ham was one for
embellishments. <g>

>
> I can say that I never had a Maryland wine that I thought was worth a
> dollar a bottle. I helped Wagner and Mowbray harvest grapes but their
> wines were just drinkable.

I heartily disagree. Montbray seyve-villard was a top notch wine. I
would stack it against the best California chardonnay. Also, I
celebrated my graduation from residency in '99 with the last bottle of
his '85 cab sauv that I had stashed away. It was one the more memorable
wine experiences of my life, and not just for the nostalgia (I had
helped bottle it, and had hand applied the label -- all such work was
done by hand at Montbray). It had aged beautifully, with overtones of
leaf tobacco.

It's good to hear from someone else (and another Bill!) who knew Dr.
Mowbray. I hear his wife Phyllis is working on a book about the Maryland
wine industry -- from the perspective of the wives of the winemakers. It
should be interesting, albeit for the small audience that would take
notice of such a work.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Bill O'Meally wrote:

> I worked for the late Dr. Mowbray briefly in the late '80s before
> medical school tore me away. I had been (and still am!) an amateur
> winemaker and approached him about working for Montbray Wine Cellars for
> free in exchange for the experience -- sort of an apprenticeship. He
> replied with his usual cockey voice, "naw, I'll pay you".
> It's good to hear from someone else (and another Bill!) who knew Dr.
> Mowbray. I hear his wife Phyllis is working on a book about the Maryland
> wine industry -- from the perspective of the wives of the winemakers. It
> should be interesting, albeit for the small audience that would take
> notice of such a work.

In addition to helping with the picking, I helped with the bottling.
I can remember sitting around on many Sunday afternoons drinking out
of the barrels and the fruit flies in my nose really enjoying Ham.

When the owners of the big estates down in Middleburg were looking for
some tax write-offs, Ham convinced them to start vineyards and claim
they were farming and losing money. Piedmont and about three others
got started just to have a tax write off. Merydith Vineyards that
Archie Smith did was the only one that was really into wine and he
only did hybrids.

Email me and lets get together with Joe Beppe for lunch.

I sold wines for Dr Mowbray, the last year or so he was in business. I also
helped organise a dinner at the Peabody Court hotel which was attended by
Robert Parker, Mike Dresser of the Baltimore Sun and other wine writers.
After Ham's funeral, I gave her a copy of the article I wrote about the
tasting. His cabs were first class as were his seyre-villard, the best I've
ever tasted.

I remember most the day I drove with Parker and Bertero Basignani to
Mowbray's. Parker and Mowbray had a somewhat adversarial relationship but
Parker really liked what he tasted and after the Peabody Court tasting gave
them a positive write-up. Ham never really thought wines should be graded
like a school exam and said so but I know he appreciated the review.
Basignani now tends the vineyard and uses some of the grapes.

Mowbray was also a great wine educator. I attended classes he gave for Les
Amis du Vin, they were great. I followed Ham for the classes he initiated
at Roland Park Country School and invited Ham & Phyllis to our "graduation"
dinners after the conclusion of our class cycle. For health reasons he
could never make it but he had a profound influence on winemaking in the
region. He is still missed.

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
> > I worked for the late Dr. Mowbray briefly in the late '80s before
> > medical school tore me away. I had been (and still am!) an amateur
> > winemaker and approached him about working for Montbray Wine Cellars for
> > free in exchange for the experience -- sort of an apprenticeship. He
> > replied with his usual cockey voice, "naw, I'll pay you".
> > It's good to hear from someone else (and another Bill!) who knew Dr.
> > Mowbray. I hear his wife Phyllis is working on a book about the Maryland
> > wine industry -- from the perspective of the wives of the winemakers. It
> > should be interesting, albeit for the small audience that would take
> > notice of such a work.
>
> In addition to helping with the picking, I helped with the bottling.
> I can remember sitting around on many Sunday afternoons drinking out
> of the barrels and the fruit flies in my nose really enjoying Ham.
>
> When the owners of the big estates down in Middleburg were looking for
> some tax write-offs, Ham convinced them to start vineyards and claim
> they were farming and losing money. Piedmont and about three others
> got started just to have a tax write off. Merydith Vineyards that
> Archie Smith did was the only one that was really into wine and he
> only did hybrids.
>
> Email me and lets get together with Joe Beppe for lunch.
>
>
>
>