I received a shipment of wine today and there was a last minute note
in the box about "Wine Diamonds" which are tartrate crystals. I gather
the wine in my box contains Wine Diamonds. The note goes on to say that
in Europe these sediment crystals are appreciated as a sign that the
wine is natural. Indeed I have had three different merchants in
Germany say the wine is highly prized if it has the crystals. It was
always in the winter when they were trying to sell me these wines and
my feeling was that the wine had gotten very cold for the first time
and caused the crystals to precipitate out. I think that cold
processing of white wines here in the US gets rid of them totally.
OK this is a subject for some European comment.

Bill

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> I received a shipment of wine today and there was a last minute note
> in the box about "Wine Diamonds" which are tartrate crystals. I gather
> the wine in my box contains Wine Diamonds. The note goes on to say that
> in Europe these sediment crystals are appreciated as a sign that the
> wine is natural. Indeed I have had three different merchants in
> Germany say the wine is highly prized if it has the crystals. It was
> always in the winter when they were trying to sell me these wines and
> my feeling was that the wine had gotten very cold for the first time
> and caused the crystals to precipitate out. I think that cold
> processing of white wines here in the US gets rid of them totally.
> OK this is a subject for some European comment.
>
> Bill
>

Are you speaking of the "Wine Diamonds" made recently by Riedel or
of the other "wine diamonds" which have been spotted on the market
for over ten years by some sharp-eyed people. We must note that the
ten-year old ones are not of the same manufacture, albeit they may be
of identical quality and function, but your mentioning this at such a
sensitive time in the lifespan of this newsgroup brings into question
your sincerity. I have experienced the joy of possessing for a brief
time some of these in the recent past; unfortunately I cannot vouch
for their bona fides as we had no time to engage in conversation
about their origin. Suffice it to say that I am making no claims either
directly or to the contrary about the provenance of these crystals.

pavane

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> I received a shipment of wine today and there was a last minute note
> in the box about "Wine Diamonds" which are tartrate crystals. I gather
> the wine in my box contains Wine Diamonds. The note goes on to say that
> in Europe these sediment crystals are appreciated as a sign that the
> wine is natural.

Utter nonsense! What do they mean by "natural"?

Indeed I have had three different merchants in
> Germany say the wine is highly prized if it has the crystals. It was
> always in the winter when they were trying to sell me these wines and
> my feeling was that the wine had gotten very cold for the first time
> and caused the crystals to precipitate out. I think that cold
> processing of white wines here in the US gets rid of them totally.

Your "feeling" is correct. Small wineries frequently don't bother with cold
stabilizing their wines, either because of the extra expense of running the
refrigeration or because they simply don't _have_ it. Big wineries here in
the US either cold stabilize by chilling and seeding the wine to precipitate
the bitartrate or by ion exchange.

Anyway, the point is there is nothing inherently better about wines with
bitartrate crystals in the bottle. OTOH, there is nothing bad about them
either. It's a cosmetic issue.

> OK this is a subject for some European comment.

I'm of European _descent_. Will that do? ;^)

Tom S

Tom S wrote:

> Anyway, the point is there is nothing inherently better about wines with
> bitartrate crystals in the bottle. OTOH, there is nothing bad about them
> either. It's a cosmetic issue.

Not entirely, Tom. Keeping the tartrates in the wine will make it (slightly)
more acidic and perhaps lend it a bit more crispness on the palate. Granted,
you'd have to keep the tartrates in solution (i.e., keep the wine from getting
too cold), but isn't that what climate-controlled cellars are for? ;-)

Mark Lipton

Tartrate crystals are to be expected in certain wines in certain
vintages. The best examples I can think of are the Rieslings of Germany
from top estates in 1976. I still have many of these from Auslese to TBA
grades that have been properly stored. Nearly all of these wines have a
lot of tartrate crystals. In some of the richest BA and TBA grades, the
wines are very deep golden, and the tartrate crystals also are colored.
The 1976 vintage in many parts of Germany was very unusual with many
late harvest wines that were very ripe. Yet the wines produced by the
better estates had plenty of acid to balance the richness. The tartrate
crystals in older, properly stored Rieslings often are large enough to
produce nearly no problems in pouring the wine.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:35:05 GMT, Bill > said:

]
] I received a shipment of wine today and there was a last minute note
] in the box about "Wine Diamonds" which are tartrate crystals. I gather
] the wine in my box contains Wine Diamonds. The note goes on to say that
] in Europe these sediment crystals are appreciated as a sign that the
] wine is natural. Indeed I have had three different merchants in
] Germany say the wine is highly prized if it has the crystals. It was
] always in the winter when they were trying to sell me these wines and
] my feeling was that the wine had gotten very cold for the first time
] and caused the crystals to precipitate out. I think that cold
] processing of white wines here in the US gets rid of them totally.
] OK this is a subject for some European comment.
]
Bill,

I've never heard of tartrate crystals as being desireable here in France,
just a by product of getting too cold. Neither good nor bad, as it were.

But marketeers will do what they do. Young vines are now a positive,
so it seems...

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Keeping the tartrates in the wine will make it (slightly)
> more acidic and perhaps lend it a bit more crispness on the palate.
Granted,
> you'd have to keep the tartrates in solution (i.e., keep the wine from
getting
> too cold)...

Hi, Mark -
While that's true, I suppose, there are a couple of things I don't
understand about tartrates:
(1) If KHT contributes to the "crispness" of a wine (presumably by
providing hydrogen ions) why is it tasteless all by itself?
(2) IIRC, cold stabilization moves the pH in _opposite_ directions,
depending on whether the wine started above or below pH ~3.6. Why wouldn't
it _always_ cause the pH to rise if fewer hydrogen ions are available due to
the removal of KHT?

Tom S

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:32:37 +0200, Emery Davis >
wrote:

>But marketeers will do what they do. Young vines are now a positive,
>so it seems...

That's a new one. Who claims this?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:32:37 +0200, Emery Davis >
> wrote:
>
>>But marketeers will do what they do. Young vines are now a positive,
>>so it seems...
>
> That's a new one. Who claims this?
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>

No one actually claims that they are better but I have seen Young Vines
proclaimed as if it were a good thing. Marketers have identified that
there is a good size popultion that really doesn't know good from bad
and have decided to mine the opportunity. It is like when my stock
broker a few years ago started crowing about funds that had a "tax
advantage" of $X. translation "you took a loss on this sucker."

Tom S wrote:


> Hi, Mark -
> While that's true, I suppose, there are a couple of things I don't
> understand about tartrates:
> (1) If KHT contributes to the "crispness" of a wine (presumably by
> providing hydrogen ions) why is it tasteless all by itself?

Well, it could serve to protonate malate, thereby producing a tart malic
acid. By this logic, just acidifying your wine with HCl (Not A Smart
Idea, BTW) should achieve the same results.

> (2) IIRC, cold stabilization moves the pH in _opposite_ directions,
> depending on whether the wine started above or below pH ~3.6. Why wouldn't
> it _always_ cause the pH to rise if fewer hydrogen ions are available due to
> the removal of KHT?

Aha! Looking in my handy CRC Handbook, I find that the first ionization
constant of tartaric acid is 3.22 in water. Therefore, if your pH is
_below_ 3.22, KHT is acting as a _base_, not an acid. Loss of KHT
removes a base, rendering the wine more acidic. Cool, huh? ;-)

Mark Lipton

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:28:53 +0200, Mike Tommasi > said:

] On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:32:37 +0200, Emery Davis >
] wrote:
]
] >But marketeers will do what they do. Young vines are now a positive,
] >so it seems...
]
] That's a new one. Who claims this?
]

Charles Jouget in Chinon was the first I recall seeing. I've seen others
from the Touraine since.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

>>But marketeers will do what they do. Young vines are now a
>>positive, so it seems...

> That's a new one. Who claims this?

I can'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS, BUT I've seen a wine labelled
"Junge Reben" (young vines) here in Austria.

M.

"Bill" > skrev i melding
...
>
> OK this is a subject for some European comment.
>
It has actually been some time since I last saw Weinstein in a Mosel bottle.
I remember, however, that a highly respected vintner used to claim that
these were signs of high quality. These may possibly be offputting to those
mainly concerned with the appearance of the wine..., but I never have found
any fault with such bottles from Germany - on the contrary, all have been
excellent..
The crystals may be considered a sign of faulty wine elsewhere, but you
should not be worried if you find them in a German bottle.
my 2c
Anders