check out the article about Osoyoos Larose from the Canadian wine
region of Okanagan. www.vancouverwine.com

>check out the article about Osoyoos Larose from the Canadian wine
>region of Okanagan. www.vancouverwine.com

Oh yes - and you get no extra points by posting this more than once, under your
own address and under that of your site.

I am new to both the wine industry and to using newsgroups and sure I am
making a few mistakes. I thought my first positing had failed and wanted to
correct my mistake.

I am an ISG student and use my personal notes, those of my fellow students
and my instructors when possible.
As for Bill Spohn I have a few things to say, I haven't q clue who you are
either. You've attacked me twice now as if I am invading your own personal
territory. My impression of you is that of the typical wine snob that the
whole industry is trying dispell and in this public forum that is not good.

Now before I burn ay bridges or make an more enemies - I'll try to do better
with my positings, my reviews and my website. Though I could only dream and
hope of ever reaching the level of expertise shown at gismondionwine.com
which you suggested in the other thread.

"Bill Spohn" > wrote in message
...
> >check out the article about Osoyoos Larose from the Canadian wine
> >region of Okanagan. www.vancouverwine.com
>
> Oh yes - and you get no extra points by posting this more than once, under
your
> own address and under that of your site.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:32:14 GMT, "Ken Stockley"
> wrote:

>I am new to both the wine industry and to using newsgroups and sure I am
>making a few mistakes. I thought my first positing had failed and wanted to
>correct my mistake.
>
>I am an ISG student and use my personal notes, those of my fellow students
>and my instructors when possible.
>As for Bill Spohn I have a few things to say, I haven't q clue who you are
>either. You've attacked me twice now as if I am invading your own personal
>territory. My impression of you is that of the typical wine snob that the
>whole industry is trying dispell and in this public forum that is not good.
>
>Now before I burn ay bridges or make an more enemies - I'll try to do better
>with my positings, my reviews and my website. Though I could only dream and
>hope of ever reaching the level of expertise shown at gismondionwine.com
>which you suggested in the other thread.

Long ago I learned that when one walks into a strange saloon it is
prudent to keep your back to the wall, order a plain unadorned drink,
keep your mouth shut and look around. Size up the situation and see
who the tall dogs in the pack are. Open your mouth prematurely and two
things can happen--neither one good. You can embarass yourself or you
can get your ass, hat and spats handed to you.

By the time you say something, you've got an idea of who is whom.
Particularly who knows what they are talking about and who is
respected by the other folks in the establishment.

Even the "drummer" of a whiz-bang product line doesn't come in
without, in the words of the Music Man, "knowing the territory".

Have a clue regarding the pecking order. Don't take offense when
you're brought up short for being overly commercial. Don't cast
aspersions about "wine snobs" in a wine discussion group. And don't
circumlocute regarding what you can "only dream and hope of ever
reaching."

You only get to make a first impression once.

Now, what's your favorite zinfandel?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Am I making a new friend here?
I'd have to say my favorite Zin would have to be the Kenwood Jack London 99.
Moslty because of the who, where, when aspect. Which mean at the winery, my
first wine getaway with the first girl I every really loved.
Other Zins I have enjoyed have come from Bonnie Doon and Mission Hill.

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:32:14 GMT, "Ken Stockley"
> > wrote:
>
> >I am new to both the wine industry and to using newsgroups and sure I am
> >making a few mistakes. I thought my first positing had failed and wanted
to
> >correct my mistake.
> >
> >I am an ISG student and use my personal notes, those of my fellow
students
> >and my instructors when possible.
> >As for Bill Spohn I have a few things to say, I haven't q clue who you
are
> >either. You've attacked me twice now as if I am invading your own
personal
> >territory. My impression of you is that of the typical wine snob that
the
> >whole industry is trying dispell and in this public forum that is not
good.
> >
> >Now before I burn ay bridges or make an more enemies - I'll try to do
better
> >with my positings, my reviews and my website. Though I could only dream
and
> >hope of ever reaching the level of expertise shown at gismondionwine.com
> >which you suggested in the other thread.
>
> Long ago I learned that when one walks into a strange saloon it is
> prudent to keep your back to the wall, order a plain unadorned drink,
> keep your mouth shut and look around. Size up the situation and see
> who the tall dogs in the pack are. Open your mouth prematurely and two
> things can happen--neither one good. You can embarass yourself or you
> can get your ass, hat and spats handed to you.
>
> By the time you say something, you've got an idea of who is whom.
> Particularly who knows what they are talking about and who is
> respected by the other folks in the establishment.
>
> Even the "drummer" of a whiz-bang product line doesn't come in
> without, in the words of the Music Man, "knowing the territory".
>
> Have a clue regarding the pecking order. Don't take offense when
> you're brought up short for being overly commercial. Don't cast
> aspersions about "wine snobs" in a wine discussion group. And don't
> circumlocute regarding what you can "only dream and hope of ever
> reaching."
>
> You only get to make a first impression once.
>
> Now, what's your favorite zinfandel?
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ken Stockley" wrote in message ........

> I am new to both the wine industry and to using newsgroups
> and sure I am making a few mistakes.

> I thought my first positing had failed and wanted to
> correct my mistake.

Ken, firstly, welcome to both the industry and this newsgroup; you will find
this an excellent forum for discussion on all things vinous - there is a
wealth of information here which many others from around the world will
share.

But, like any society, there are rules - most of them by convention.

So, before you go any further, do a google search for "FAQ alt.food.wine" (I
could post the link, but I am a great believer in finding my own way")

Take particular note of the guidelines under the heading "Etiquette".

You will find that postings of a commercial nature are not encouraged, and
your efforts, to date, simply posting a link to your own website (without
declaring your interest) notwithstanding the fact that your site may not be
commercial "at this time" - such postings *will* be jumped upon.

alt.food.wine is the forum - so far you have contributed exactly zero!!!

If you want to stick around and participate in discussions, you are allowed
to post a short signature linking to your website;this is quite
cceptable - but continuing your current practise will only result in more
flak.

Another short observation which may help - this is truly an international
group, and not one solely aimed at North America.

There are some wonderfully knowledgable participants from France, Britain,
Australia, Scandinavia, Australasia etc - representing literally decades of
tasting experience.

In closing, "respect" is the key word - if you want respect; give it!

Calling anyone a snob will not win you friends, and I can assure you, will
not win arguments either.

In respect to your reviews and your website, although I wish you good luck,
I personally don't really care - *this* is my forum - I will be more
interested in your contributions *here*

--
st.helier
Auckland, New Zealand

Thanks for the advise. I am beginning to feel there will be a lot more
coming in the next few days. I think I ruffled some feathers which I now
see was probably warranted. Live and learn I guess. We all love wine and I
will keep that in mind as I exit from positing to this newsgroup in the
future.
And I thank Ed Rasimus who eloquently spelled out how things work in this
society in a very good analogy in another thread.

"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> "Ken Stockley" wrote in message ........
>
> > I am new to both the wine industry and to using newsgroups
> > and sure I am making a few mistakes.
>
> > I thought my first positing had failed and wanted to
> > correct my mistake.
>
> Ken, firstly, welcome to both the industry and this newsgroup; you will
find
> this an excellent forum for discussion on all things vinous - there is a
> wealth of information here which many others from around the world will
> share.
>
> But, like any society, there are rules - most of them by convention.
>
> So, before you go any further, do a google search for "FAQ alt.food.wine"
(I
> could post the link, but I am a great believer in finding my own way")
>
> Take particular note of the guidelines under the heading "Etiquette".
>
> You will find that postings of a commercial nature are not encouraged, and
> your efforts, to date, simply posting a link to your own website (without
> declaring your interest) notwithstanding the fact that your site may not
be
> commercial "at this time" - such postings *will* be jumped upon.
>
> alt.food.wine is the forum - so far you have contributed exactly zero!!!
>
> If you want to stick around and participate in discussions, you are
allowed
> to post a short signature linking to your website;this is quite
> cceptable - but continuing your current practise will only result in
more
> flak.
>
> Another short observation which may help - this is truly an
international
> group, and not one solely aimed at North America.
>
> There are some wonderfully knowledgable participants from France, Britain,
> Australia, Scandinavia, Australasia etc - representing literally decades
of
> tasting experience.
>
> In closing, "respect" is the key word - if you want respect; give it!
>
> Calling anyone a snob will not win you friends, and I can assure you, will
> not win arguments either.
>
> In respect to your reviews and your website, although I wish you good
luck,
> I personally don't really care - *this* is my forum - I will be more
> interested in your contributions *here*
>
> --
> st.helier
> Auckland, New Zealand
>
>

>As for Bill Spohn I have a few things to say, I haven't q clue who you are
>either. You've attacked me twice now as if I am invading your own personal
>territory.

I think that others have explained that posting unattributed commercial posts
to this group is not a good way to make friends here.

My impression of you is that of the typical wine snob that the
>whole industry is trying dispell and in this public forum that is not good.
>

I suggest that you hang around for awhile (and for more than a couple of posts)
before making such judgements.

"Ken Stockley" wrote:
>
> I'd have to say my favorite Zin would have to be the
> Kenwood Jack London 99. ...

I am a long though casual friend of Zins and believe I've also enjoyed this.

(Despite certain bittersweet flavors attending commercial use of Jack
London's name here in the SF Bay area.)

Max

Salut/Hi Ken Stockley,

As others have said here, your first postings were inauspicious (grin!).
Don't worry, though. We all open our mouths and put our foot in it from
tiume to time. It's not serious, and as long as you apologise for it and
learn, no harm's done at all.

le/on Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:56:29 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

> I think I ruffled some feathers which I now see was probably warranted.

Well, it's true that as Bill lives in Vancouver, he was particularly awake
to your postings! As for ruffling feathers, that's not _quite_ what
happened, let's just say that you were a little over-enthusiastic in hoping
to use this group - perhaps - for commercial reasons. Most of the regulars
here don't like that much (newsgroups in the alt. nierarchy are
non-commercial), and if we get very little here, it's just because many of
us react quite sharply against it.

> Live and learn I guess.

Exactly!!. But you got a pretty gentle tap, compared with what some other
groups dish out! But as you say, we all love wine, and that generally keeps
us more or less civilised.

>will keep that in mind as I exit from positing to this newsgroup in the
>future.

With my tongue firmly in my cheek, can I ask you if you MEANT what you said
here? There's a difference between positing, and posting (wide grin!). If
you like wine and want to talk about your experiences, and share with others
here, you'll not find us unfriendly. If you think Bill's wrong about Osoyoos
Larose, and you really -do_ like it, well, invite him down to taste it with
you! So, do stick around.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>Well, it's true that as Bill lives in Vancouver, he was particularly awake
>to your postings! As for ruffling feathers, that's not _quite_ what
>happened, let's just say that you were a little over-enthusiastic in hoping
>to use this group - perhaps - for commercial reasons.

Ken's site is quite well constructed, although a bit full of self praise
("Vancouver's premier source for wine information" seems a bit premature....)
and a lot short on information about who he is and what his qualifications are
- the same things that he found caused a less than receptive attitude here.

He seems interested in feedback, though, and if he is intent on making his site
more than one of those exercises in website building that slowly goes stale,
this group could be a useful learning experience.

Hang around, Ken and share some wine experiences.

And yes, John - I am alert to any new Vancouver area wine presence on the net.
One of the minor quibbles about Ken's site is the lack of contact info about
who runs it and when I tried to contact him offline, it just bounced back. I
asked Tony Gismondi and he had never heard of it.

So with no apparent credentials (at least none revealed on the site) and an
approach to this group that left an aura of spam in the air, I certainly did
wonder what the agenda was.

I always welcome sincere interest in wine, though, so I look forward to Ken's
notes and discussions on this group.

Max Hauser wrote:
> "Ken Stockley" wrote:
>
>>I'd have to say my favorite Zin would have to be the
>>Kenwood Jack London 99. ...
>
>
> I am a long though casual friend of Zins and believe I've also enjoyed this.
>
> (Despite certain bittersweet flavors attending commercial use of Jack
> London's name here in the SF Bay area.)

Max,
IIRC, Kenwood uses it as a vineyard designation on the basis of its
former ownership by Mr. London. Still, there's no denying that it *is*
a commercial use of his name -- but then so is Jack London Square's...

Mark Lipton

>Kenwood uses it as a vineyard designation on the basis of its
>former ownership by Mr. London. Still, there's no denying that it *is*
>a commercial use of his name -- but then so is Jack London Square's...

Yup - if I were making Pinot Noir in Oregon, and established a vineyard, I'd be
sure to call it 'DRC' vineyard......

FWIW, I though I'd heard that they were talking about dropping the Jack London
designation, but I might be imagining it.

I have always enjoyed their cabernets more than the zins, though those have
often been very good. The late 70s cabs are now just about ready to
drink........

"Bill Spohn" wrote (quoting Mark Lipton):
> >Kenwood uses it as a vineyard designation on the basis
> >of its former ownership by Mr. London. Still, there's
> >no denying that it *is* a commercial use of his name --
> >but then so is Jack London Square's...
>
> . . .
> FWIW, I though I'd heard that they were talking about dropping
> the Jack London designation, but I might be imagining it.
> . . .

Sorry -- I failed to spell out what I meant by "bittersweet flavors
attending commercial use" of his name locally. It's about Jack London's
children.

After his sudden (allegedly drug-related, or drug-mismanagement-related)
death, London's second wife, Charmian Kittredge, seems to have actively
cultivated the London mystique, which implicitly encouraged the use of his
name. Meanwhile London's two daughters were left, I gather, without
provision from his estate, and grew to old age in the Bay Area surrounded by
things being named after their late father.

Not everyone knows about that, especially those who trade on the Jack London
mystique. Last year I saw an article in a high-end US sport publication,
_The Surfer's Journal,_ glamorizing the author's role in surfing history,
mentioning, as usual, no family but Charmian. (You'll excuse, I hope, this
only-slightly-wine-related digression on a subject of some poignancy.)


Max Hauser

Max Hauser wrote:

>
> After his sudden (allegedly drug-related, or drug-mismanagement-related)
> death, London's second wife, Charmian Kittredge, seems to have actively
> cultivated the London mystique, which implicitly encouraged the use of his
> name. Meanwhile London's two daughters were left, I gather, without
> provision from his estate, and grew to old age in the Bay Area surrounded by
> things being named after their late father.

Most interesting, Max, and completely new to me, sad to say. I assume that
the widow also gave her name to the eponymous Berkeley street (and theater,
etc.)? But surely all the dramatis personae must now be but memories, no?

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" in ...
>
>
> Most interesting, Max, and completely new to me, sad to say.
> I assume that the widow also gave her name to the eponymous
> Berkeley street (and theater, etc.)?

Actually I don't think so, in that another local figure, Francis Kittredge
Shattuck, possibly related, is more associated with Berkeley names.

> But surely all the dramatis personae must now be but
> memories, no?

Not to the following extent: Jack London has something like 100 living
direct descendants, all through his two daughters Joan and Becky who were
the central personae involved. I believe that most of those descendants
live in the San Francisco area, there is a Jack London Web site with the
details. It puts a human face on the bittersweet situation. (I knew Joan
and Becky when I was younger, though I did not hear about any of this from
them.)

MH