I was in the supermarket tonight looking for a nice rose. Unfortunately
they didn't have any (only some Paul Masson and some White Zinfandel.)
Actually I was looking for Moulin A Vent, but that was asking too much.
Anyway, I notice the new wines in the subject. Anyone tried these - are
they interesting wines, or are they really just White Zinfandels (if you
know what I mean)?

"jeffc" > wrote in message r.com>...
> I was in the supermarket tonight looking for a nice rose. Unfortunately
> they didn't have any (only some Paul Masson and some White Zinfandel.)
> Actually I was looking for Moulin A Vent, but that was asking too much.
> Anyway, I notice the new wines in the subject. Anyone tried these - are
> they interesting wines, or are they really just White Zinfandels (if you
> know what I mean)?

I tried an E&J Gallo White Merlot once. It won't make the pages of
"Wine Spectator"(too cheap), but it was more flavorful than your
typical white zin.

Dan-O

>Early in the
>fermentation of the wines, some of the liquid is drained off and the
>remainder is allowed to continue to ferment on the skins. This
>increases the concentration of the substances extracted from the
>skins. There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that
>I cannot remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do.


Saignée

Bill Spohn wrote:
>>Early in the
>>fermentation of the wines, some of the liquid is drained off and the
>>remainder is allowed to continue to ferment on the skins. This
>>increases the concentration of the substances extracted from the
>>skins. There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that
>>I cannot remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do.
>
>
>
> Saignée

Like Jonathan Maltus's Lacroix Rosé, Merlot Saignée, Bordeaux A.C.

Bill Spohn wrote:
>>Early in the
>>fermentation of the wines, some of the liquid is drained off and the
>>remainder is allowed to continue to ferment on the skins. This
>>increases the concentration of the substances extracted from the
>>skins. There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that
>>I cannot remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do.
>
>
>
> Saignée

Like Jonathan Maltus's Lacroix Rosé, Merlot Saignée, Bordeaux A.C.

On 26 Jul 2004 18:02:51 GMT, ojunk (Bill Spohn) wrote:


>Saignée

That's it! I thought I would recognize it when I saw it in print
(metaphorically speaking).

Thanks.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Vino > wrote:

> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
> the way.

Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").

M.

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:48:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:41:41 GMT, "jeffc" > wrote:

>On the one hand, the bad reputation is deserved, since so much lousy
>rosé wine is produced.

How I agree with you. At this time of year the shops in France are awash
with rosé wines designed to be glugged down with "le barbecue" or grill. The
food is unbelievably bad, "hamburgers", marinated chicken legs "a la
mexicaine" nasty sausages, worse merguez (lamb sausages in the North African
style), stale shrimps marinated in something pretty nondescript and "kebabs"
of all flavours, layered up in alternate layers with peppers, onion, and
pork fat in great sheets and then cut down into 2 cms square columns which
are transpierced with a bamboo skewer. To accompany these delights, mounds
of boring composed salads are produced, so that with very little effort, the
holiday makers can kid themselves they've eaten a nice meal. And the wine
chosen to wash down this swill is a Rosé from Provence, North Africa or God
knows where, which is no better than the food.

Mike Tommasi will perhaps tell me I'm being a little harsh. I'm not. It's
the epitome of bad taste, sold expensively and destined to debase the french
palate.

And, just as you are about to say (;-)) it's particularly sad, because one
can eat some wonderful charcoal grilled food, and accompany with (if you
like the combination) some wonderful characterful rosés, for very little
extra effort, price or trouble.

>there are some very good rosé wines produced. I've had some of each,

>the production of "regular" versions of their namesakes. Early in the
[good description of the saignée process snipped]
>Not that anyone should make any great effort to obtain them. Since the
>winery's primary objective is to make a good "regular" cabernet
>sauvignon (or merlot,etc.) and everything is done with this objective
>in mind, one should not expect much (nor is likely to get much) from
>the by-product.

I can't speak for saignée rosés in the States, but I can't agree for France.
The primary objective in many cases, as you say, is to allow a lesser volume
of grape juice to be in contact with the skins, to give more body etc for
the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
their own equilibrium. So the fermenting must that is drawn off (saignée =
bled off, literally) will be from the better grapes and or parcels, and the
harvest might well have been treated with greater care, and cropped at lower
yields. So the basic juice may be better than one might expect! Furthermore,
although as you said, the mst common reason for the saignée is to improve a
red wine, it can also be carried out for its own sake.

As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.

But obviously, I am restricting my remarks to French wines. When it comes to
wines from other countries, other criteria may well apply.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:48:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:41:41 GMT, "jeffc" > wrote:

>On the one hand, the bad reputation is deserved, since so much lousy
>rosé wine is produced.

How I agree with you. At this time of year the shops in France are awash
with rosé wines designed to be glugged down with "le barbecue" or grill. The
food is unbelievably bad, "hamburgers", marinated chicken legs "a la
mexicaine" nasty sausages, worse merguez (lamb sausages in the North African
style), stale shrimps marinated in something pretty nondescript and "kebabs"
of all flavours, layered up in alternate layers with peppers, onion, and
pork fat in great sheets and then cut down into 2 cms square columns which
are transpierced with a bamboo skewer. To accompany these delights, mounds
of boring composed salads are produced, so that with very little effort, the
holiday makers can kid themselves they've eaten a nice meal. And the wine
chosen to wash down this swill is a Rosé from Provence, North Africa or God
knows where, which is no better than the food.

Mike Tommasi will perhaps tell me I'm being a little harsh. I'm not. It's
the epitome of bad taste, sold expensively and destined to debase the french
palate.

And, just as you are about to say (;-)) it's particularly sad, because one
can eat some wonderful charcoal grilled food, and accompany with (if you
like the combination) some wonderful characterful rosés, for very little
extra effort, price or trouble.

>there are some very good rosé wines produced. I've had some of each,

>the production of "regular" versions of their namesakes. Early in the
[good description of the saignée process snipped]
>Not that anyone should make any great effort to obtain them. Since the
>winery's primary objective is to make a good "regular" cabernet
>sauvignon (or merlot,etc.) and everything is done with this objective
>in mind, one should not expect much (nor is likely to get much) from
>the by-product.

I can't speak for saignée rosés in the States, but I can't agree for France.
The primary objective in many cases, as you say, is to allow a lesser volume
of grape juice to be in contact with the skins, to give more body etc for
the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
their own equilibrium. So the fermenting must that is drawn off (saignée =
bled off, literally) will be from the better grapes and or parcels, and the
harvest might well have been treated with greater care, and cropped at lower
yields. So the basic juice may be better than one might expect! Furthermore,
although as you said, the mst common reason for the saignée is to improve a
red wine, it can also be carried out for its own sake.

As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.

But obviously, I am restricting my remarks to French wines. When it comes to
wines from other countries, other criteria may well apply.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> Mike Tommasi will perhaps tell me I'm being a little harsh. I'm
> not. It's the epitome of bad taste, sold expensively and
> destined to debase the french palate.

You're quite small-minded, Ian; look, this happens all over
Europe. Just drop into a supermarket in Vienna, Helsinki, Milan or
Porto - everywhere the same pre-marinated lousy food, everywhere
the same non-descript rosés, and piles of charcoal to incinerate
everything.

M.

On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
>> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
>> the way.
>
>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
>designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
>apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").
>
>M.

My guess is that you're kidding. But my German is not very good. OK,
it's virtually non-existent, so I could easily miss a joke. Please
clue me in.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
>> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
>> the way.
>
>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
>designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
>apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").
>
>M.

My guess is that you're kidding. But my German is not very good. OK,
it's virtually non-existent, so I could easily miss a joke. Please
clue me in.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 27 Jul 2004 14:57:59 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> Mike Tommasi will perhaps tell me I'm being a little harsh. I'm
>> not. It's the epitome of bad taste, sold expensively and
>> destined to debase the french palate.

>You're quite small-minded, Ian; look, this happens all over
>Europe. Just drop into a supermarket in Vienna, Helsinki, Milan or
>Porto - everywhere the same pre-marinated lousy food, everywhere
>the same non-descript rosés, and piles of charcoal to incinerate
>everything.

I believe you, Michael, but can't speak with the same authority for other
countries. Actually, I don't think it's _quite_ as true in the UK which
doesn't have the "bbq culture" to anything like the same extent.

Actually, if many in France didn't set France up as being the example of
good taste and excellence in everything, denigrating most other countries,
I'd be less scathing. But they do, especially in matters of food and wine,
so often without having tasted the food and wine they feel so free to
criticise, while at the same time debasing their own taste more and more. It
breaks my heart sometimes, Michael.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Vino" > skrev i melding
...
> On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:
>
> >Vino > wrote:
> >
> >> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
> >> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
> >> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
> >> the way.
> >
> >Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
> >designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
> >apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").
> >
> >M.
>
> My guess is that you're kidding. But my German is not very good. OK,
> it's virtually non-existent, so I could easily miss a joke. Please
> clue me in.
>
LOL - He's not kidding. That means "Red Gold from Baden (south-west
Germany)"
Anders

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:15:38 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

<snip>
>I can't speak for saignée rosés in the States, but I can't agree for France.
>The primary objective in many cases, as you say, is to allow a lesser volume
>of grape juice to be in contact with the skins, to give more body etc for
>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>their own equilibrium.

You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
not use) saignée. However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée. I
suspect that the process is used at times for all levels of grape
quality. Winemakers, as always, do what they have to do.

<snip>
>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.

Now that I've learned (or, more accurately, recalled from the depths
of my memory with the assistance of Bill Spohn) a new word (saignée),
I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is. The only
reference I could lay my hands on was Jancis Robinson's "Oxford
Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
does not make sense. Or am I missing something?
>
>But obviously, I am restricting my remarks to French wines. When it comes to
>wines from other countries, other criteria may well apply.

I don't believe that one can tell from the label of a rosé made in the
USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
cares.

Vino

To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
>> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
>> the way.
>
>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
>designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
>apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").

Really? Are you sure it is not just illegal to call it rosé, or to
call it a quality wine or some such?

I know of at least one other producer (not a million miles from where
I live - Cambridge UK) where a "pink" wine is produced in this
fashion, and the process of mixing red and white wine was described to
me with apparent pride.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention
>> this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of
>> the way.
>
>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three
>designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others
>apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").

Really? Are you sure it is not just illegal to call it rosé, or to
call it a quality wine or some such?

I know of at least one other producer (not a million miles from where
I live - Cambridge UK) where a "pink" wine is produced in this
fashion, and the process of mixing red and white wine was described to
me with apparent pride.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Vino wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2004 18:02:51 GMT, ojunk (Bill Spohn) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Saignée
>
>
> That's it! I thought I would recognize it when I saw it in print
> (metaphorically speaking).

If you think about it, it's basically the same as in English, where we'd
say that the winemaker "bleeds" off some of the juice.

Mark Lipton

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> Actually, if many in France didn't set France up as being the
> example of good taste and excellence in everything, denigrating
> most other countries, I'd be less scathing. But they do,
> especially in matters of food and wine, so often without having
> tasted the food and wine they feel so free to criticise, while
> at the same time debasing their own taste more and more. It
> breaks my heart sometimes, Michael.

I'm fully with you, Ian, <sigh>.

M.

Vino > wrote:

> On 27 Jul 2004 06:26:33 GMT, Michael Pronay >
> wrote:
>
>>Vino > wrote:
>>
>>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I
>>> mention this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get
>>> it out of the way.
>>
>>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for
>>three designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two
>>others apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch
>>Rotgold").

> My guess is that you're kidding. But my German is not very good.
> OK, it's virtually non-existent, so I could easily miss a joke.
> Please clue me in.

No joke. The other designation is "Schillerwein", where red and
white grapes can be crushed together to give rosé, iirc. But a
short google search should help.

M.

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

>>> There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to
>>> blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I
>>> mention this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get
>>> it out of the way.

>>Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for
>>three designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two
>>others apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch
>>Rotgold").

> Really? Are you sure it is not just illegal to call it rosé, or
> to call it a quality wine or some such?

This would definitely apply in Austria. As to the EU, I might be
wrong insofar, as if it might only apply to "quality wine".

> I know of at least one other producer (not a million miles from
> where I live - Cambridge UK) where a "pink" wine is produced in
> this fashion, and the process of mixing red and white wine was
> described to me with apparent pride.

He certainly would not be able to do this in FR, IT, DE or AT.

M.

" There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that cannot
remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do."
Le Profit
There are a few genuine rose's in the world, red wine grapes fermented on
the skins. Sutter Home started the White Zin phenomena after they had a
stuck fermentation I believe, that led to a unusual amount of residual sugar
(most of the white zins before this were relatively dry) soon other wineries
followed Sutter Home's lead and white zin succeeded boones farm, sangria,
reunite and peach reunite as the hot consumer name in the USA. So folks with
an excess of red grapes or a poor harvest started marketing white grenache,
merlot and cab as a means to improve cash flow. The obvious economic
advantage of making "blush wines" from red wine grapes for a winery is an
accountants/bankers/stockholders dream you get your money back from sales a
year or so after the harvest rather then have the expense of buying barrels
and waiting for those pesky tannins to recede before you can get a return on
investment. The folks who make Arbor Mist and other fruit-grape blends took
this concept further as did the Gallo boys who marketed Bartles & James wine
cooler a more downscale version of the Arbor Mist line.

BTW in the hands of Ridge and some wineries in Amador fermented dry or off
dry a white zin makes a great picnic wine or a summer time quaff when there
is more month then money in your coffers. However, most white cabs, white
merlots and white grenache I tried when was ITB, really sucked. They were
the intellectual equivalent of reading a Dan Qualye haiku. Real rose's on
the other hand are an underappreciated joy, I have fond memories of buying a
fresh bottle of Simi's Cabernet Rose at the winery and repairing to my hotel
room for a night of a light repast of Vella cheeses, some fresh salami and
_________.

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"lloyd" > wrote in message
. uk...
> Bill Spohn wrote:
> .> >
> >
> > Saignée
>
> Like Jonathan Maltus's Lacroix Rosé, Merlot Saignée, Bordeaux A.C.

" There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that cannot
remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do."
Le Profit
There are a few genuine rose's in the world, red wine grapes fermented on
the skins. Sutter Home started the White Zin phenomena after they had a
stuck fermentation I believe, that led to a unusual amount of residual sugar
(most of the white zins before this were relatively dry) soon other wineries
followed Sutter Home's lead and white zin succeeded boones farm, sangria,
reunite and peach reunite as the hot consumer name in the USA. So folks with
an excess of red grapes or a poor harvest started marketing white grenache,
merlot and cab as a means to improve cash flow. The obvious economic
advantage of making "blush wines" from red wine grapes for a winery is an
accountants/bankers/stockholders dream you get your money back from sales a
year or so after the harvest rather then have the expense of buying barrels
and waiting for those pesky tannins to recede before you can get a return on
investment. The folks who make Arbor Mist and other fruit-grape blends took
this concept further as did the Gallo boys who marketed Bartles & James wine
cooler a more downscale version of the Arbor Mist line.

BTW in the hands of Ridge and some wineries in Amador fermented dry or off
dry a white zin makes a great picnic wine or a summer time quaff when there
is more month then money in your coffers. However, most white cabs, white
merlots and white grenache I tried when was ITB, really sucked. They were
the intellectual equivalent of reading a Dan Qualye haiku. Real rose's on
the other hand are an underappreciated joy, I have fond memories of buying a
fresh bottle of Simi's Cabernet Rose at the winery and repairing to my hotel
room for a night of a light repast of Vella cheeses, some fresh salami and
_________.

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"lloyd" > wrote in message
. uk...
> Bill Spohn wrote:
> .> >
> >
> > Saignée
>
> Like Jonathan Maltus's Lacroix Rosé, Merlot Saignée, Bordeaux A.C.

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>>their own equilibrium.
>
>You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
>quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
>not use) saignée.

I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking
decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a
touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to
counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be
those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.

> However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
>it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
>the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
>that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée.

Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of
wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they
are.

>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.


>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
[snip]
>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?

Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
dozen!!!

>USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
>cares.

Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just
subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it
had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article
where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>>their own equilibrium.
>
>You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
>quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
>not use) saignée.

I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking
decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a
touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to
counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be
those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.

> However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
>it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
>the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
>that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée.

Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of
wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they
are.

>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.


>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
[snip]
>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?

Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
dozen!!!

>USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
>cares.

Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just
subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it
had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article
where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>>their own equilibrium.
>
>You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
>quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
>not use) saignée.

I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking
decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a
touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to
counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be
those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.

> However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
>it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
>the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
>that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée.

Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of
wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they
are.

>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.


>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
[snip]
>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?

Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
dozen!!!

>USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
>cares.

Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just
subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it
had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article
where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:53 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.
>
>
>>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
>[snip]
>>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?
>
>Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
>same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
>must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
>treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
>the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
>fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
>The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
>understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
>dozen!!!
>
The thing that confused me was your guess that a significant portion
of the rosés judged to be the best were made "by the saignée method".
If "saignée" is defined as including both sets of actions we have each
described in slightly different words, which is the way Jancis defines
it (and you apparently agree with her), my question is "what other
method is there?" (blending a little red with some white doesn't count
for reasons discussed earlier in this thread). I'm not sure I
understand the next-to-last sentence in your paragraph quoted above.
Why would pressing skins ever be relevant in making a rosé? Or am I
again missing something?

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:53 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.
>
>
>>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
>[snip]
>>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?
>
>Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
>same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
>must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
>treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
>the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
>fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
>The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
>understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
>dozen!!!
>
The thing that confused me was your guess that a significant portion
of the rosés judged to be the best were made "by the saignée method".
If "saignée" is defined as including both sets of actions we have each
described in slightly different words, which is the way Jancis defines
it (and you apparently agree with her), my question is "what other
method is there?" (blending a little red with some white doesn't count
for reasons discussed earlier in this thread). I'm not sure I
understand the next-to-last sentence in your paragraph quoted above.
Why would pressing skins ever be relevant in making a rosé? Or am I
again missing something?

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

Hi Ian

hope you are having a great season...

Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ? The first answer
is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...

Mike

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:53 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Vino,
>
> le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>>>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>>>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>>>their own equilibrium.
>>
>>You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
>>quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
>>not use) saignée.
>
>I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking
>decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a
>touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to
>counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be
>those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.
>
>> However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
>>it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
>>the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
>>that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée.
>
>Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of
>wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they
>are.
>
>>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.
>
>
>>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
>[snip]
>>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?
>
>Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
>same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
>must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
>treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
>the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
>fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
>The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
>understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
>dozen!!!
>
>>USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
>>cares.
>
>Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just
>subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it
>had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article
>where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.


Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Hi Ian

hope you are having a great season...

Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ? The first answer
is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...

Mike

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:53 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Vino,
>
> le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>>the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of
>>>wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better
>>>wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find
>>>their own equilibrium.
>>
>>You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the
>>quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or
>>not use) saignée.
>
>I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking
>decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a
>touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to
>counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be
>those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.
>
>> However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use
>>it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where
>>the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide
>>that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée.
>
>Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of
>wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they
>are.
>
>>>>As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special
>>>>feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst
>>>>the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.
>
>
>>I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is.
>[snip]
>>Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is
>>applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a
>>red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as
>>where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is
>>drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip
>>does not make sense. Or am I missing something?
>
>Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the
>same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the
>must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé,
>treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL
>the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
>fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
>The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
>understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
>dozen!!!
>
>>USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even
>>cares.
>
>Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just
>subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it
>had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article
>where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.


Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>
> I believe you, Michael, but can't speak with the same authority for other
> countries. Actually, I don't think it's _quite_ as true in the UK which
> doesn't have the "bbq culture" to anything like the same extent.
>
Unfortunately the BBQ culture (despite the legendary weather) has taken
hold in the UK big time, at least in the areas just outside London,
where supermarkets are filled to the brim with dodgy BBQ-type "food
products". The acrid smoke and the smell of meths and burning meat are
all too common around where I live.

> Actually, if many in France didn't set France up as being the example of
> good taste and excellence in everything, denigrating most other countries,
> I'd be less scathing. But they do, especially in matters of food and wine,
> so often without having tasted the food and wine they feel so free to
> criticise, while at the same time debasing their own taste more and more. It
> breaks my heart sometimes, Michael.

I suppose that the silent majority of people who don't really appreciate
good food or good wine, follow fashionable food-fads and the path of
least resistance as far as filling their stomachs is concerned is pretty
much the same throughout the western world.

On the other hand the amount of people who do care about what they eat
and drink and who have an eclectic, but equally international taste
seems to rise as well. What does sadly seem to be squeezed out recently
between the junk food addicts and the international food-afficionado
crowd is the people who appreciate the "gut bürgerliche Küche" of the
area they live in, leading to a rather unfortunate uniformity of eating
habits all over the place.

* German phrase meaning good unassuming local fare.

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>
> I believe you, Michael, but can't speak with the same authority for other
> countries. Actually, I don't think it's _quite_ as true in the UK which
> doesn't have the "bbq culture" to anything like the same extent.
>
Unfortunately the BBQ culture (despite the legendary weather) has taken
hold in the UK big time, at least in the areas just outside London,
where supermarkets are filled to the brim with dodgy BBQ-type "food
products". The acrid smoke and the smell of meths and burning meat are
all too common around where I live.

> Actually, if many in France didn't set France up as being the example of
> good taste and excellence in everything, denigrating most other countries,
> I'd be less scathing. But they do, especially in matters of food and wine,
> so often without having tasted the food and wine they feel so free to
> criticise, while at the same time debasing their own taste more and more. It
> breaks my heart sometimes, Michael.

I suppose that the silent majority of people who don't really appreciate
good food or good wine, follow fashionable food-fads and the path of
least resistance as far as filling their stomachs is concerned is pretty
much the same throughout the western world.

On the other hand the amount of people who do care about what they eat
and drink and who have an eclectic, but equally international taste
seems to rise as well. What does sadly seem to be squeezed out recently
between the junk food addicts and the international food-afficionado
crowd is the people who appreciate the "gut bürgerliche Küche" of the
area they live in, leading to a rather unfortunate uniformity of eating
habits all over the place.

* German phrase meaning good unassuming local fare.

Vino > wrote in message >. ..
<snip>
> Why would pressing skins ever be relevant in making a rosé? Or am I
> again missing something?
>
Myself, I have no idea if the previous post was correct, that one is
officially not supposed to press the skins when making a rosé by the
saignée method. But I don't see any practical reason why you
couldn't. After all, if the definition of saignée includes draining
up to all the juice off, the skins will press themselves to a degree,
the weight of skins on top pressing down on those below. A winemaker
might well want employ a press for a rosé for the same reason they
press other wines (red, white and in-between): to get more juice from
the fruit. In the case of a rosé, I would think they might be
motivated to press lightly, though, in order to avoid extracting too
much tannin.

- Mark W.

Vino > wrote in message >. ..
<snip>
> Why would pressing skins ever be relevant in making a rosé? Or am I
> again missing something?
>
Myself, I have no idea if the previous post was correct, that one is
officially not supposed to press the skins when making a rosé by the
saignée method. But I don't see any practical reason why you
couldn't. After all, if the definition of saignée includes draining
up to all the juice off, the skins will press themselves to a degree,
the weight of skins on top pressing down on those below. A winemaker
might well want employ a press for a rosé for the same reason they
press other wines (red, white and in-between): to get more juice from
the fruit. In the case of a rosé, I would think they might be
motivated to press lightly, though, in order to avoid extracting too
much tannin.

- Mark W.

Salut/Hi Markus,

Is this the first time you've posted? I don't recall having seen your name
before. If it is, thanks for joining in.

le/on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:16:03 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> I believe you, Michael, but can't speak with the same authority for other
>> countries. Actually, I don't think it's _quite_ as true in the UK which
>> doesn't have the "bbq culture" to anything like the same extent.
>>
>Unfortunately the BBQ culture (despite the legendary weather) has taken
>hold in the UK big time,

I suppose that in a sense it was going to be inevitable. As I left 15 years
ago and now only go back in the autumn or winter, I haven't been subjected
to these dubious delights there.

I still remember, however, with great pleasure the barbecues we had in
Germany in the Sauerland in Brilon, when we accompanied some 40 or 50 german
students from Jacquie's school (she was a language teacher). The butcher
would produce great trays of bratwurst, and marinaded pork chops, and
chicken for us to grill - all home made - that were quite delicious. The
parents of the host families would bring their home made salads, and
desserts and we had a feast, all washed down with some truly excellent local
beer (for the adults only, of _course_ ;-))

>I suppose that the silent majority of people who don't really appreciate
>good food or good wine, follow fashionable food-fads and the path of
>least resistance as far as filling their stomachs is concerned is pretty
>much the same throughout the western world.

I'm sure they do, Marcus. And while I may regret it for their sakes, because
I truly believe that one can eat much better with remarkably little extra
effort, and often at lower cost, it doesn't really impinge on me. However,
what I've never found to any serious degree in any country _other_ than
France, is the mix of arrogant chauvinism and ignorance about which I was
holding forth.

I've been extraordinarily lucky in that I've travelled quite widely (though
not as much as I'd like) in the world, and in most countries, they're
delighted to give credit where it's due. In France, if I do a non French
dish that delights my French guests, when I inform them that it was American
(Cajun 15 bean soup or meatloaf or a chowder or.. or...) or English,
(Chicken with sun dried tomatoes, or a hotpot, or syllabub or burn't cream,
or.. or..) or Italian (Lasagne al Forno, as tonight), the reaction 4 times
out of 5 is "ah yes, but one eats well in France" or "all the same, French
cooking is the best in the world". As if a good dish from somewhere else in
the world was somehow an affront to their country. And exactly the same
applies to their attitude to wine.

>On the other hand the amount of people who do care about what they eat
>and drink and who have an eclectic, but equally international taste
>seems to rise as well.

Yes I'd say I've noticed this rise - especially in the UK, where people are
now prepared to pay to eat well. (in some sectors).

> What does sadly seem to be squeezed out recently between the junk food addicts and the international food-afficionado
> crowd is the people who appreciate the "gut bürgerliche Küche" of the area they live in, leading to a rather unfortunate
> uniformity of eating habits all over the place.

Interesting point, and I'd say that to a large extent the same is happening
here in France as well. I'm VERY lucky living in this area - the Correze,
where "la bonne cuisine bourgeoise" (to translate your phrase) AND "la bonne
cuisine paysanne" are both resisting valiantly.

But to be honest, I think it's slightly unfair to put these phenomena you
mention as the cause of a loss of local eating habits in the UK. One of the
consequences of the industrial revolution in the UK was the mass migration
away from the countryside and the consequent loss of much of the local
tradition in food, which still exists quite firmly in Italy, France and
Germany. So although I agree that gut bürgerliche Küche has been squeezed
out, I'd qualify that slightly by not applying it as much to areas in the
UK, as it would elsewhere. However I _would_ agree that the homogeneity of
food in the UK has continued and perhaps accelerated in recent years. One of
the things that my visitors here always ask me is "What part of the UK do
you come from?" and I can't really answer. People in the UK have had to be
so much more mobile than in France and Germany that the concept is less
meaningful. So equally the concept of "regional cooking" so important in
France, Italy and Germany, is less relevant in the UK. Notwithstanding all
that, I believe that in fact regional cooking is making something of a
comeback in the UK, but at a high level, spearheaded by chefs such as Garry
Rhodes, Rick Stein and (to a lesser extent) Gordon Ramsey. Though instead of
Welsh cooking being confined to Wales as Poitevine cooking is more or less
confined to the region around Poitier, it is now being promoted and tried
out throughout the UK. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, except
perhaps for visitors from abroad who go to Wales to eat Welsh food, the lake
district for food from Lancashire etc.

Sorry to have gone on at length, but this is a subject that as dear to my
heart!

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,

le/on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:29:57 +0200, tu disais/you said:-

>Hi Ian
>
>hope you are having a great season...

Not really, although the period 14th July to 15th August is 100% full. VERY
busy, though.

>Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ?

Nope, I haven't. I'm afraid I always try to answer without too many external
references. Call it foolhardy or arrogant. I'd not argue.

> The first answer is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
>champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
>quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...

Yes, I tried it a couple of times in the last year or two and always found
it wonderful. Though it's the exception rather than the rule in Champagne
afaik, and I can't say that I've found other top pink champagnes bad either.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,

le/on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:29:57 +0200, tu disais/you said:-

>Hi Ian
>
>hope you are having a great season...

Not really, although the period 14th July to 15th August is 100% full. VERY
busy, though.

>Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ?

Nope, I haven't. I'm afraid I always try to answer without too many external
references. Call it foolhardy or arrogant. I'd not argue.

> The first answer is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
>champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
>quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...

Yes, I tried it a couple of times in the last year or two and always found
it wonderful. Though it's the exception rather than the rule in Champagne
afaik, and I can't say that I've found other top pink champagnes bad either.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:56:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc,
>>fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée.
>>The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I
>>understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a
>>dozen!!!

>The thing that confused me was your guess that a significant portion
>of the rosés judged to be the best were made "by the saignée method".

RvF describes the other main method(s) as "macération pélliculaire" and
"pressurage" (with or without "directe" being added). I understand these to
mean that in the case of MP the grapes are crushed and left to macerate with
their skins for some time at low temperatures, which prevents fermentation.
The mixture would then (surely?) be pressed.

In the case of pressurage, RvF says that the red grapes are pressed before
fermentation so that the lightly coloured juice can then be fermented. They
don't say what (if any) is the difference between pressurage and pressurage
directe. I am guessing in saying that "directe" implies NO prior
fermentation and "pressurage" would allow some crushing and fermentation
(albeit very brief) before pressing.

To give an idea of how competitive Saignée can be, the Tavels from Ch de
Trinquevel and Marcel Guigal are both produced by the Saignée method, and
you can be almost certain that they will have extracted ALL the juice,
(without pressing). But also in Tavel, the excellent Domaine de la Mordorée
uses skin maceration, while the Domaines Bernard's Les Muretins uses
pressurage directe.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:37:01 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>>Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ?
>
>Nope, I haven't. I'm afraid I always try to answer without too many external
>references. Call it foolhardy or arrogant. I'd not argue.

Ian, I am sorry you took this to be a snide comment on your post, I
did not mean this question to be read separately from the answer that
follows. I just meant that it is pleasantly surprising that looking up
such a generic subject would turn up our friend's web site.

>
>> The first answer is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
>>champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
>>quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...
>
>Yes, I tried it a couple of times in the last year or two and always found
>it wonderful. Though it's the exception rather than the rule in Champagne
>afaik, and I can't say that I've found other top pink champagnes bad either.


Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:37:01 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>>Have you tried running Google on "rose de saignee" ?
>
>Nope, I haven't. I'm afraid I always try to answer without too many external
>references. Call it foolhardy or arrogant. I'd not argue.

Ian, I am sorry you took this to be a snide comment on your post, I
did not mean this question to be read separately from the answer that
follows. I just meant that it is pleasantly surprising that looking up
such a generic subject would turn up our friend's web site.

>
>> The first answer is our friend and occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard and his
>>champagne. We tried this rose recently and it certainly was up to the
>>quality of the rest of his wines. Rose can be exceptional...
>
>Yes, I tried it a couple of times in the last year or two and always found
>it wonderful. Though it's the exception rather than the rule in Champagne
>afaik, and I can't say that I've found other top pink champagnes bad either.


Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail