I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).

I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
this time.

So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.

Midlife > wrote in :

> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I
> still find myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly
> getting comfortable with identifying what's in the bottle from the
> label (and then remembering for next time). I've laughed it off as a
> way for the French to keep people from enjoying their wine if they
> aren't dedicated enough to figure it out, but it bothers me more and
> more that I just can't seem to get comfortable with this so important
> part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French labels that
> identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French.
> I know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the
> cards at this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to
> a 10 year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.
>
>

You will find that in general a French wine that identifies the grape is
not a "serious" French wine. That is not to confuse you but due to the fact
that French wines are AOC controlled as to grape variety. One who buys for
instance a St Emilion will expect a high Merlot, Cabernet Franc proportion
in the blend. One who buys a red Burgundy can expect 100% Pinot Noir, a
white, Chardonnay etc.

a good handy reference for all of these basics is Hugh Johnson's Pocket
Wine Book.

Midlife > wrote in :

> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I
> still find myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly
> getting comfortable with identifying what's in the bottle from the
> label (and then remembering for next time). I've laughed it off as a
> way for the French to keep people from enjoying their wine if they
> aren't dedicated enough to figure it out, but it bothers me more and
> more that I just can't seem to get comfortable with this so important
> part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French labels that
> identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French.
> I know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the
> cards at this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to
> a 10 year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.
>
>

You will find that in general a French wine that identifies the grape is
not a "serious" French wine. That is not to confuse you but due to the fact
that French wines are AOC controlled as to grape variety. One who buys for
instance a St Emilion will expect a high Merlot, Cabernet Franc proportion
in the blend. One who buys a red Burgundy can expect 100% Pinot Noir, a
white, Chardonnay etc.

a good handy reference for all of these basics is Hugh Johnson's Pocket
Wine Book.

in article , jcoulter at
wrote on 9/20/04 10:01 AM:

>
> You will find that in general a French wine that identifies the grape is
> not a "serious" French wine. That is not to confuse you but due to the fact
> that French wines are AOC controlled as to grape variety. One who buys for
> instance a St Emilion will expect a high Merlot, Cabernet Franc proportion
> in the blend. One who buys a red Burgundy can expect 100% Pinot Noir, a
> white, Chardonnay etc.
>
> a good handy reference for all of these basics is Hugh Johnson's Pocket
> Wine Book.


Thanks, but maybe I should clarify a bit. I do understand how the French
system works, I just can't seem to commit the AOC-to-grape-variety formulas
to memory. I was hoping someone could offer a trick or two.

It's likely to be as simple as the Visa card US Olympic TV commercials last
month: "How do you get to the 2004 Summer Olympics? ...... Practice!....
Practice!..... Practice!".

in article , jcoulter at
wrote on 9/20/04 10:01 AM:

>
> You will find that in general a French wine that identifies the grape is
> not a "serious" French wine. That is not to confuse you but due to the fact
> that French wines are AOC controlled as to grape variety. One who buys for
> instance a St Emilion will expect a high Merlot, Cabernet Franc proportion
> in the blend. One who buys a red Burgundy can expect 100% Pinot Noir, a
> white, Chardonnay etc.
>
> a good handy reference for all of these basics is Hugh Johnson's Pocket
> Wine Book.


Thanks, but maybe I should clarify a bit. I do understand how the French
system works, I just can't seem to commit the AOC-to-grape-variety formulas
to memory. I was hoping someone could offer a trick or two.

It's likely to be as simple as the Visa card US Olympic TV commercials last
month: "How do you get to the 2004 Summer Olympics? ...... Practice!....
Practice!..... Practice!".

Midlife > wrote in :



> Thanks, but maybe I should clarify a bit. I do understand how the
> French system works, I just can't seem to commit the
> AOC-to-grape-variety formulas to memory. I was hoping someone could
> offer a trick or two.
>
> It's likely to be as simple as the Visa card US Olympic TV commercials
> last month: "How do you get to the 2004 Summer Olympics? ......
> Practice!.... Practice!..... Practice!".
>
>
Yes, we do it the old fashioned way, we learn it! Other than looking it up
in a book there is no other way. Unless you know Cahors=Malbec or
Rhone=Syrah (Unless it is southern and Grenache) then you can't figure it
out without a scorecard. What happens is you learrn which style you like
and then the grape varietal doesn't really matter. If you like St Emilion
as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but does it matter?

Yes, it does matter.

Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based does
not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style. Even if they %
of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs Merlot based..but
it goes more dramatic than that.

Therefore you need to concentrate on what you like and why so you can
explore others.

Example many years ago I found I like Chateau Margaux. However I cannot
afford that weekly. So I found suitable alternatives to be Rausan Segla, or
Cheateau Brane Cantenac or Malesocot Exsupery--which are also wines of
Margaux.

Using California wines as an example not all Napa Cabernets are the same.
Rutherford wines experience that dusty quality. I don't know of any other
Napa AOC that is that distintive.

So yes...I would say it does matter.


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> Midlife > wrote in :
>
>
>
>> Thanks, but maybe I should clarify a bit. I do understand how the
>> French system works, I just can't seem to commit the
>> AOC-to-grape-variety formulas to memory. I was hoping someone could
>> offer a trick or two.
>>
>> It's likely to be as simple as the Visa card US Olympic TV commercials
>> last month: "How do you get to the 2004 Summer Olympics? ......
>> Practice!.... Practice!..... Practice!".
>>
>>
> Yes, we do it the old fashioned way, we learn it! Other than looking it up
> in a book there is no other way. Unless you know Cahors=Malbec or
> Rhone=Syrah (Unless it is southern and Grenache) then you can't figure it
> out without a scorecard. What happens is you learrn which style you like
> and then the grape varietal doesn't really matter. If you like St Emilion
> as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but does it matter?

Yes, it does matter.

Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based does
not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style. Even if they %
of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs Merlot based..but
it goes more dramatic than that.

Therefore you need to concentrate on what you like and why so you can
explore others.

Example many years ago I found I like Chateau Margaux. However I cannot
afford that weekly. So I found suitable alternatives to be Rausan Segla, or
Cheateau Brane Cantenac or Malesocot Exsupery--which are also wines of
Margaux.

Using California wines as an example not all Napa Cabernets are the same.
Rutherford wines experience that dusty quality. I don't know of any other
Napa AOC that is that distintive.

So yes...I would say it does matter.


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> Midlife > wrote in :
>
>
>
>> Thanks, but maybe I should clarify a bit. I do understand how the
>> French system works, I just can't seem to commit the
>> AOC-to-grape-variety formulas to memory. I was hoping someone could
>> offer a trick or two.
>>
>> It's likely to be as simple as the Visa card US Olympic TV commercials
>> last month: "How do you get to the 2004 Summer Olympics? ......
>> Practice!.... Practice!..... Practice!".
>>
>>
> Yes, we do it the old fashioned way, we learn it! Other than looking it up
> in a book there is no other way. Unless you know Cahors=Malbec or
> Rhone=Syrah (Unless it is southern and Grenache) then you can't figure it
> out without a scorecard. What happens is you learrn which style you like
> and then the grape varietal doesn't really matter. If you like St Emilion
> as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but does it matter?

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:46:53 -0700, Midlife > wrote:

>I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
>myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
>with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
>for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
>from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
>but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
>with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
>labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
>I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
>easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
>know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
>this time.
>
>So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
>year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.

Found this book in a shop yesterday, and was tempted a bit to buy it
myself. It basically is a dictionary of the French ACs. Sounds like
just what you need. There are 1 or 2 whole pages devoted to each
Appellation. Gives grape varieties, sub areas, tasting notes, aging
recommendations, pretty pictures etc.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...stirbitchcom09

Alternatively, get hold of a good solid general wine text. For
example
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../sitbitchcom09
This is hardly the most exiting book in the world, but it is good for
fuss-free information. It covers all wines, but France gets pride of
place. I have read it from cover to cover and got on with it well. I
think it will also answer your questions.

NB - I have given you links that will push a small percentage of the
book price in my direction - I am an Amazon affiliate. Feel free to
lop of the stirbitchcom09 bit of the URL if you object to this. I
would recommend the books anyway.

Best wishes.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Just noticed one of the books I recommended is not available from
Amazon.com. You could howver get it from Amazon.co.uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...0/stirbitchcom

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Just noticed one of the books I recommended is not available from
Amazon.com. You could howver get it from Amazon.co.uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...0/stirbitchcom

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Midlife wrote:
> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
> myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
> with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
> for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
> from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
> but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
> with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
> labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
> know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
> this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
> year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.
>
Hey Midlife,
I have the same problem with French wines. I'm not looking for any "great"
wines for my cellar, but I would like to become as familiar with +-$10
French wines as I am with wines from Australia, California and other parts
of the USA in the same price range. I'm sure there are many very good French
wines in this category, but how to find them?

BTW: After I "master" French wines, I'm going to tackle Germany. :-)

Dick

Midlife wrote:
> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
> myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
> with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
> for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
> from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
> but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
> with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
> labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
> know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
> this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
> year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.
>
Hey Midlife,
I have the same problem with French wines. I'm not looking for any "great"
wines for my cellar, but I would like to become as familiar with +-$10
French wines as I am with wines from Australia, California and other parts
of the USA in the same price range. I'm sure there are many very good French
wines in this category, but how to find them?

BTW: After I "master" French wines, I'm going to tackle Germany. :-)

Dick

"Richard Neidich" > wrote in
ink.net:

> Yes, it does matter.
>
> Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based
> does not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style.

I hope I never gave that impression I was aiming for just the opposite
choosing more radically different wines of Bordeaux as an example.

Even
> if they % of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs
> Merlot based..but it goes more dramatic than that.
>
I guess I wasn't being clear. The it to which I referred was the grape
varietal composition. Since "it" varies from year to year at the wine
makers discretion there just isn't an easy answer to the question and even
wines of the same maker may have radically different qualities for year to
year (the 96 and 97 Haut Veyrac St Emilion Grand Cru that I mentioned in
another thread stand out as a very recent example for me), but there is a
tendency for wines to conform to a general pattern within the appelation
with the quality of the winemaker effecting the quality of the wine.


.. If
>> you like St Emilion as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but
>> does it matter?
>
>
>

"Richard Neidich" > wrote in
ink.net:

> Yes, it does matter.
>
> Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based
> does not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style.

I hope I never gave that impression I was aiming for just the opposite
choosing more radically different wines of Bordeaux as an example.

Even
> if they % of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs
> Merlot based..but it goes more dramatic than that.
>
I guess I wasn't being clear. The it to which I referred was the grape
varietal composition. Since "it" varies from year to year at the wine
makers discretion there just isn't an easy answer to the question and even
wines of the same maker may have radically different qualities for year to
year (the 96 and 97 Haut Veyrac St Emilion Grand Cru that I mentioned in
another thread stand out as a very recent example for me), but there is a
tendency for wines to conform to a general pattern within the appelation
with the quality of the winemaker effecting the quality of the wine.


.. If
>> you like St Emilion as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but
>> does it matter?
>
>
>

Midlife,
A few points, then I'll make a "crib sheet" for you.
1) As pointed out, terroir is important. Just as a RRV Pinot is very different
from a Santa Barbera PN ( which is different from a Willamette PN, which is
different from a Carneros PN, etc), Volnays tend to be quite different from
Nuits-St-George (which are very different from RRV!).
2) Since we're talking varietal makeup, don't forget that many of those
California cabernet sauvignons have up to 25% merlot, cab franc, or whatever.
Knowing varietal is only a piece of the puzzle anywhere.
3) It's worth getting a basic book.
4) For purposes of a crib sheet, it's not that hard if you're in a wine shop,
at least for the major regions. You might not be able to remember where Pommard
is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a Pomerol will
say Bordeaux somewhere on label.

So here's a crib sheet that you could carry with you:

The major regions:
Bordeaux will be a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec
and Petit Verdot. Right Bank (Pomerol, St. Emilion and its offshoots, Lalande
de Pomerol, Fronsac, etc) wines are usually mostly Merlot, though the better
St. Emilions tend to have a good dose of Cab Franc (although Cheval Blanc is
the only one I know that has more CabFranc than Merlot). Left Bank (St.
Estephe, St. Julien, Margaux, Pauillac, Haut-Medoc ) wines tend to be more
Cab-based. Which is also true (to a slightly lesser extent) in
Graves/Pessac-Leognan.

Burgundy is Pinot Noir if red, Chardonnay if white. There are a few exceptions
(bourgogne passetoutgrains, bourgogne aligote, Gouges Nuits-St. George,
Sauvignon de St. Bris), but the rule will apply to 99.98% of Burgundy you'll
find in US.

Alsace- the varietal is on the label (Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Pinot Gris,
etc)

Rhone: Northern Rhone red wines (Cote-Rotie, Hermitage, Cornas, St-Joseph,
Crozes-Hermitage) are all or mostly Syrah. Southern Rhone red wines
(Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Gigondas, Vacqueyras, Cotes du Rhone )are almost all
blends, with the primary grapes usually Grenache, Mouvedre, and Syrah.

The dry Loire whites you're most likely to see in US (Sancerre, Pouilly-Fume,
Quincy) are Sauvignon Blanc , a few (Vouvray and Savennieres most prominent)
are Chenin Blanc.

Beaujolais is Gamay. The Languedoc is somewhat similar to the Southern Rhone.

These wines (plus Champagne) probably represent 97%+ of French wines in an
American wineshop. Budget based shops might have more VdP wines, but they will
likely be varietally labeled. Once you have these down pat you can start on the
areas like Cahors, Jura, etc.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Midlife,
A few points, then I'll make a "crib sheet" for you.
1) As pointed out, terroir is important. Just as a RRV Pinot is very different
from a Santa Barbera PN ( which is different from a Willamette PN, which is
different from a Carneros PN, etc), Volnays tend to be quite different from
Nuits-St-George (which are very different from RRV!).
2) Since we're talking varietal makeup, don't forget that many of those
California cabernet sauvignons have up to 25% merlot, cab franc, or whatever.
Knowing varietal is only a piece of the puzzle anywhere.
3) It's worth getting a basic book.
4) For purposes of a crib sheet, it's not that hard if you're in a wine shop,
at least for the major regions. You might not be able to remember where Pommard
is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a Pomerol will
say Bordeaux somewhere on label.

So here's a crib sheet that you could carry with you:

The major regions:
Bordeaux will be a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec
and Petit Verdot. Right Bank (Pomerol, St. Emilion and its offshoots, Lalande
de Pomerol, Fronsac, etc) wines are usually mostly Merlot, though the better
St. Emilions tend to have a good dose of Cab Franc (although Cheval Blanc is
the only one I know that has more CabFranc than Merlot). Left Bank (St.
Estephe, St. Julien, Margaux, Pauillac, Haut-Medoc ) wines tend to be more
Cab-based. Which is also true (to a slightly lesser extent) in
Graves/Pessac-Leognan.

Burgundy is Pinot Noir if red, Chardonnay if white. There are a few exceptions
(bourgogne passetoutgrains, bourgogne aligote, Gouges Nuits-St. George,
Sauvignon de St. Bris), but the rule will apply to 99.98% of Burgundy you'll
find in US.

Alsace- the varietal is on the label (Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Pinot Gris,
etc)

Rhone: Northern Rhone red wines (Cote-Rotie, Hermitage, Cornas, St-Joseph,
Crozes-Hermitage) are all or mostly Syrah. Southern Rhone red wines
(Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Gigondas, Vacqueyras, Cotes du Rhone )are almost all
blends, with the primary grapes usually Grenache, Mouvedre, and Syrah.

The dry Loire whites you're most likely to see in US (Sancerre, Pouilly-Fume,
Quincy) are Sauvignon Blanc , a few (Vouvray and Savennieres most prominent)
are Chenin Blanc.

Beaujolais is Gamay. The Languedoc is somewhat similar to the Southern Rhone.

These wines (plus Champagne) probably represent 97%+ of French wines in an
American wineshop. Budget based shops might have more VdP wines, but they will
likely be varietally labeled. Once you have these down pat you can start on the
areas like Cahors, Jura, etc.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>You might not be able to remember where Pommard
>is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a Pomerol will
>say Bordeaux somewhere on label.

?????

Maybe on bottles labelled for the US market, but not over here. Or is
that what your smiley is all about?

If I were to have a rant about French labelling it would be precisely
over this. And I think the French are harming their market when only
the cheaper Appellations proclaim themselves as Bordeaux or Bourgogne.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>You might not be able to remember where Pommard
>is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a Pomerol will
>say Bordeaux somewhere on label.

?????

Maybe on bottles labelled for the US market, but not over here. Or is
that what your smiley is all about?

If I were to have a rant about French labelling it would be precisely
over this. And I think the French are harming their market when only
the cheaper Appellations proclaim themselves as Bordeaux or Bourgogne.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>You might not be able to remember where Pommard
>is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a Pomerol will
>say Bordeaux somewhere on label.

?????

Maybe on bottles labelled for the US market, but not over here. Or is
that what your smiley is all about?

If I were to have a rant about French labelling it would be precisely
over this. And I think the French are harming their market when only
the cheaper Appellations proclaim themselves as Bordeaux or Bourgogne.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve Slatcher > wrote in
:

> On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
>>You might not be able to remember where Pommard
>>is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a
>>Pomerol will say Bordeaux somewhere on label.
>
> ?????
>
> Maybe on bottles labelled for the US market, but not over here. Or is
> that what your smiley is all about?
YOu are right, US bottles reflect the larger area (Pommard as Red Burgudny
wine for example (I just checked in my collection the US bought bottles say
it the French bought wines, don't)))
>
> If I were to have a rant about French labelling it would be precisely
> over this. And I think the French are harming their market when only
> the cheaper Appellations proclaim themselves as Bordeaux or Bourgogne.

Steve Slatcher > wrote in
:

> On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
>>You might not be able to remember where Pommard
>>is, but somewhere on label it says "red burgundy wine". Just as a
>>Pomerol will say Bordeaux somewhere on label.
>
> ?????
>
> Maybe on bottles labelled for the US market, but not over here. Or is
> that what your smiley is all about?
YOu are right, US bottles reflect the larger area (Pommard as Red Burgudny
wine for example (I just checked in my collection the US bought bottles say
it the French bought wines, don't)))
>
> If I were to have a rant about French labelling it would be precisely
> over this. And I think the French are harming their market when only
> the cheaper Appellations proclaim themselves as Bordeaux or Bourgogne.

>YOu are right, US bottles reflect the larger area (Pommard as Red Burgudny
>wine for example

Steve and JCoulter,

Actually, though I was writing for a US reader, I should have been more
precise. Pretty sure this is an ATF requirement, and it's generally on the
importer's part of label (which is sometimes a neck strip, or a strip just
below main front label). Not on bottles I have that were bought in France.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Midlife > wrote in message >...
> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
> myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
> with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
> for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
> from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
> but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
> with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
> labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
> know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
> this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
> year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.

Foreign languages always present a problem, wherever the wines come
from. Why, though, would you want to learn more about F_____ wines?
Italian wines are the ones to buy....

Midlife > wrote in message >...
> I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
> myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
> with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
> for next time). I've laughed it off as a way for the French to keep people
> from enjoying their wine if they aren't dedicated enough to figure it out,
> but it bothers me more and more that I just can't seem to get comfortable
> with this so important part of the wine world. (I HAVE noticed more French
> labels that identify the grape varieties.... but not enough for me).
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
> know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
> this time.
>
> So..... can anyone suggest a way to help? How would you teach this to a 10
> year-old?? That would seem to be a good place to start.

Foreign languages always present a problem, wherever the wines come
from. Why, though, would you want to learn more about F_____ wines?
Italian wines are the ones to buy....

Sorry for the consusion.'


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Richard Neidich" > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>> Yes, it does matter.
>>
>> Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based
>> does not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style.
>
> I hope I never gave that impression I was aiming for just the opposite
> choosing more radically different wines of Bordeaux as an example.
>
> Even
>> if they % of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs
>> Merlot based..but it goes more dramatic than that.
>>
> I guess I wasn't being clear. The it to which I referred was the grape
> varietal composition. Since "it" varies from year to year at the wine
> makers discretion there just isn't an easy answer to the question and even
> wines of the same maker may have radically different qualities for year to
> year (the 96 and 97 Haut Veyrac St Emilion Grand Cru that I mentioned in
> another thread stand out as a very recent example for me), but there is a
> tendency for wines to conform to a general pattern within the appelation
> with the quality of the winemaker effecting the quality of the wine.
>
>
> . If
>>> you like St Emilion as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but
>>> does it matter?
>>
>>
>>
>

Sorry for the consusion.'


"jcoulter" > wrote in message
...
> "Richard Neidich" > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>> Yes, it does matter.
>>
>> Just because most wines of the Medoc are predominantly Cabernet based
>> does not mean that Margaux is the same as Graves wines in style.
>
> I hope I never gave that impression I was aiming for just the opposite
> choosing more radically different wines of Bordeaux as an example.
>
> Even
>> if they % of Cabernet is the same. Your example was of Cab based vs
>> Merlot based..but it goes more dramatic than that.
>>
> I guess I wasn't being clear. The it to which I referred was the grape
> varietal composition. Since "it" varies from year to year at the wine
> makers discretion there just isn't an easy answer to the question and even
> wines of the same maker may have radically different qualities for year to
> year (the 96 and 97 Haut Veyrac St Emilion Grand Cru that I mentioned in
> another thread stand out as a very recent example for me), but there is a
> tendency for wines to conform to a general pattern within the appelation
> with the quality of the winemaker effecting the quality of the wine.
>
>
> . If
>>> you like St Emilion as opposed to St.Estephe there is a reason but
>>> does it matter?
>>
>>
>>
>

"Midlife" > wrote in message
...
>
> I live in California and have just found it easier to learn about more
> easily identifiable wines than figure out a way to tackle the French. I
> know that going to France would help a lot, but that's not in the cards at
> this time.

No no, you don't have to learn French. It's all about region. Learn some
regions, and you'll get it. Basically the more expensive the wine is, the
more specific it is in that region. So, Burgundy red = Pinot Noir.
Burgundy white = Chardonnay. You should see the region somewhere on the
bottle. If you see a more specific sub-region, like Cote de Beaune, it
might cost a bit more. Then you'll see townships or specific vinyard or
"house" like Chateau Blah du Blah Blah. That might not have the region
listed on it, but you don't care because that wine's too expensive anyway.
The other big region is Bordeaux, and that's a little more complicated, but
basically Bordeaux red = Cabernet Sauvignon (with a little Merlot etc. mixed
in.)

On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>
>So here's a crib sheet that you could carry with you:
>
> The major regions:

Good summary.

Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
Champagne. Varietals are some blend of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot
Meunier. Sometimes made with only one variety. In the best cases, to
be tasted the same way as a "regular" wine...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On 20 Sep 2004 19:19:50 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>
>So here's a crib sheet that you could carry with you:
>
> The major regions:

Good summary.

Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
Champagne. Varietals are some blend of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot
Meunier. Sometimes made with only one variety. In the best cases, to
be tasted the same way as a "regular" wine...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>Champagne

Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne was
that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same as
here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only from
Champagne" tirades.
Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
Prosecco")
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>>Champagne
>
>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne was
>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same as
>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only from
>Champagne" tirades.
>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
>Prosecco")

Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?

;-)

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>>Champagne
>
>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne was
>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same as
>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only from
>Champagne" tirades.
>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
>Prosecco")

Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?

;-)

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>>Champagne
>
>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne was
>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same as
>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only from
>Champagne" tirades.
>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
>Prosecco")

Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?

;-)

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

No...Marco Polo Stole that from China too with the pasta :-)


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
>>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>>>Champagne
>>
>>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne
>>was
>>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same
>>as
>>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
>>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only
>>from
>>Champagne" tirades.
>>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
>>Prosecco")
>
> Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?
>
> ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

No...Marco Polo Stole that from China too with the pasta :-)


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> wrote:
>
>>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
>>>Champagne
>>
>>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne
>>was
>>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same
>>as
>>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
>>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only
>>from
>>Champagne" tirades.
>>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
>>Prosecco")
>
> Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?
>
> ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

I know you guys know that sparkling wine in Italy is Spumante by which the
grape prosecco from NE Italy is usually made as it is with moscato from the
area around asti i.e. Asti Spumante, a less fizzy version is a frizzante.

BTW when I worked in retail, a besotted customer asked from some "Puma"
wine. Going throughout section of wine beverages like Night Train & Ripple
the customer kept saying "No man, Puma wine, Puma" as we approached the
Sparkling wine area his face lit up and he grabbed a bottle of Asti, smiled
and headed to the cashier.

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> No...Marco Polo Stole that from China too with the pasta :-)
>
>
> "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
> >>>Champagne
> >>
> >>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne
> >>was
> >>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same
> >>as
> >>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
> >>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only
> >>from
> >>Champagne" tirades.
> >>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
> >>Prosecco")
> >
> > Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> > email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>
>

I know you guys know that sparkling wine in Italy is Spumante by which the
grape prosecco from NE Italy is usually made as it is with moscato from the
area around asti i.e. Asti Spumante, a less fizzy version is a frizzante.

BTW when I worked in retail, a besotted customer asked from some "Puma"
wine. Going throughout section of wine beverages like Night Train & Ripple
the customer kept saying "No man, Puma wine, Puma" as we approached the
Sparkling wine area his face lit up and he grabbed a bottle of Asti, smiled
and headed to the cashier.

--
Joe "Beppe" Rosenberg
"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> No...Marco Polo Stole that from China too with the pasta :-)
>
>
> "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 21 Sep 2004 12:03:43 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>Don't forget a much overlooked region that is available in the US,
> >>>Champagne
> >>
> >>Indeed, good point Michael. The main reason I didn't go into Champagne
> >>was
> >>that OP was from CA, and there the bubbly composition is generally same
> >>as
> >>here (and they use the French terms for the single variety bubblies).
> >>I also didn't want to get distracted into one of my "Champagne is only
> >>from
> >>Champagne" tirades.
> >>Dale (who spent last night saying "no, I DIDN'T bring Champagne, that's
> >>Prosecco")
> >
> > Prosecco, that's the Champagne form Italy right?
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> > email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>
>

Salut/Hi Midlife,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:46:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
>myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
>with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
>for next time).

I kept quiet on this up to now, wanting to read what everyone else said
before butting in.

I do agree that for someone brought up on buying wine purely by varietal
names, the idea of buying wine by region/area/village/estate can be
confusing. But honestly, it's not really much more complicated than learning
what grape varietal you like. When approaching wines sold under their
variety name, you look for the name, "Merlot", "Cabernet Sauvignon" and try
it out to see if you like it, right? So you don't have too much trouble
remembering that you like Riesling, and don't like Chardonnay or whatever.

Well in France, different grape varieties are grown in different areas. So
if you know you like Pinot Noir from New Zealand and Oregon, you should
perhaps look for a red wine from Burgundy. Then, (just as in assembler
mnemonics, where instead of using the number "201" (which the processor
understands) you remember "return", which YOU understand) you just need to
make the one-to-one relationship between Red Burgundy - which France
understands - and "Pinot Noir", which you understand and remember it.

The list isn't THAT enormous, you know.

The grape varieties most commonly found are (in no kind of order and leaving
out the more complex area round the Mediterranean)

red
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Pinot Noir
Malbec
Syrah/Shiraz
Gamay

White

Sauvignon Blanc
Sémillon
Riesling
Chardonnay
Viognier
Pinot Gris
Chenin blanc

The first three reds are all grown in the Bordeaux region, (with other areas
like it - Bergerac, Duras etc). Pomerol (part of Bordeaux) is more or less
100% Merlot, but doesn't taste _anything_ like Californian Merlot,
apparently.

Pinot Noir, as I said before is THE grape of Burgundy, also grown a bit on
the Loire, along with Cabernet Franc (Anjou).

Malbec is the grape used in Cahors (also in tiny quantities blended in
Bordeaux)

Syrah is the French name for the Oz Shiraz, Northern Rhone - (crozes)-
Hermitage, Cote Rotie etc.

Gamay Mainly Beaujolais

Sauvignon Blanc White Bordeaux (sometimes mixed with Semillon, especially
for sweet whites) (and other similar areas)
Most typical in the Eastern Loire - Sancerre, Pouilly Fumé

Riesling, Pinot Gris (also Gewurztraminer) Alsace above all.
Chardonnay White Burgundy including Chablis (also grown increasingly
outside)
Viognier Rhone (esp. Condrieu)
chenin Blanc. dry and sweet Loire wines.

You simply need to learn these equivalents.

If you then want to deepen your knowledge, as you would, for example learn
that one part of California tends to make better wines than another and one
estate specialises in wonderful Zinfandels, so you can learn the difference
between

"Bordeaux" - region (=Oregon)
"Medoc/Saint-Emilion/Pomerol/Bourg & Blay etc" area = Willamette/Umpqua/
Rogue/Columbia river

"Pauillac/Margaux/St Julien" - village = Newburg/Dundee/Dayton

"Chateau Latour/Chateau Margaux/Chateau le ***" - estates = "Domaine
Drouhin/Bergström/Chehalem"

There are plenty of good reference books that you can use, others have
mentioned some names.

Hope that helps a bit.

The only thing I'd say, is that you DO need to make an effort of memory at
first if only just to learn what the major areas are, and which grape
varieties they tend to use.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Midlife,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:46:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>I'm sure it's just in my head, but after years of enjoying wine I still find
>myself intimidated by French wine...... particularly getting comfortable
>with identifying what's in the bottle from the label (and then remembering
>for next time).

I kept quiet on this up to now, wanting to read what everyone else said
before butting in.

I do agree that for someone brought up on buying wine purely by varietal
names, the idea of buying wine by region/area/village/estate can be
confusing. But honestly, it's not really much more complicated than learning
what grape varietal you like. When approaching wines sold under their
variety name, you look for the name, "Merlot", "Cabernet Sauvignon" and try
it out to see if you like it, right? So you don't have too much trouble
remembering that you like Riesling, and don't like Chardonnay or whatever.

Well in France, different grape varieties are grown in different areas. So
if you know you like Pinot Noir from New Zealand and Oregon, you should
perhaps look for a red wine from Burgundy. Then, (just as in assembler
mnemonics, where instead of using the number "201" (which the processor
understands) you remember "return", which YOU understand) you just need to
make the one-to-one relationship between Red Burgundy - which France
understands - and "Pinot Noir", which you understand and remember it.

The list isn't THAT enormous, you know.

The grape varieties most commonly found are (in no kind of order and leaving
out the more complex area round the Mediterranean)

red
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Pinot Noir
Malbec
Syrah/Shiraz
Gamay

White

Sauvignon Blanc
Sémillon
Riesling
Chardonnay
Viognier
Pinot Gris
Chenin blanc

The first three reds are all grown in the Bordeaux region, (with other areas
like it - Bergerac, Duras etc). Pomerol (part of Bordeaux) is more or less
100% Merlot, but doesn't taste _anything_ like Californian Merlot,
apparently.

Pinot Noir, as I said before is THE grape of Burgundy, also grown a bit on
the Loire, along with Cabernet Franc (Anjou).

Malbec is the grape used in Cahors (also in tiny quantities blended in
Bordeaux)

Syrah is the French name for the Oz Shiraz, Northern Rhone - (crozes)-
Hermitage, Cote Rotie etc.

Gamay Mainly Beaujolais

Sauvignon Blanc White Bordeaux (sometimes mixed with Semillon, especially
for sweet whites) (and other similar areas)
Most typical in the Eastern Loire - Sancerre, Pouilly Fumé

Riesling, Pinot Gris (also Gewurztraminer) Alsace above all.
Chardonnay White Burgundy including Chablis (also grown increasingly
outside)
Viognier Rhone (esp. Condrieu)
chenin Blanc. dry and sweet Loire wines.

You simply need to learn these equivalents.

If you then want to deepen your knowledge, as you would, for example learn
that one part of California tends to make better wines than another and one
estate specialises in wonderful Zinfandels, so you can learn the difference
between

"Bordeaux" - region (=Oregon)
"Medoc/Saint-Emilion/Pomerol/Bourg & Blay etc" area = Willamette/Umpqua/
Rogue/Columbia river

"Pauillac/Margaux/St Julien" - village = Newburg/Dundee/Dayton

"Chateau Latour/Chateau Margaux/Chateau le ***" - estates = "Domaine
Drouhin/Bergström/Chehalem"

There are plenty of good reference books that you can use, others have
mentioned some names.

Hope that helps a bit.

The only thing I'd say, is that you DO need to make an effort of memory at
first if only just to learn what the major areas are, and which grape
varieties they tend to use.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website