Terroir and blends
 

I can't figure this out.

If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses in
his wine that he labels that is from his winery?



Thanks a lot for any who can understand my question as phrased, and answer.

Dee Dee

Terroir and blends
 

"Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
...
>I can't figure this out.
>
> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses
> in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>
Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may be
modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the official
blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often different
from these in warm ones.

The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and thus
do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in general.

A simplified response, this, I think :-)
Anders

Terroir and blends
 

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
> ...
>>I can't figure this out.
>>
>> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
>> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
>> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses
>> in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>>
> Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
> plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
> within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
> profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may
> be modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the
> official blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often
> different from these in warm ones.
>
> The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and
> thus do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in
> general.
>
> A simplified response, this, I think :-)
> Anders
>
>

Thank you, Anders.
My appreciation,
Dee Dee

Terroir and blends
 

Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> "Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> I can't figure this out.
>>
>> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
>> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
>> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses
>> in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>>
> Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
> plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
> within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
> profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may be
> modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the official
> blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often different
> from these in warm ones.
>
> The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and thus
> do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in general.
>
> A simplified response, this, I think :-)

Simple, but correct as far as I know for Bordeaux

In other places though, occasionally you get "field blends". Here,
different varieties are grown in the same vineyard. If they are old
vineyards, the varieties may be very well mixed, and the owner may not
even know or care what the viarieties are. In more recently planted
vineyards for field blends, each row will contain only one variety, but
adjacent rows may well be different.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

In message >
Steve Slatcher > wrote:

> Anders Tørneskog wrote:
>> "Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
>> ...
>>> I can't figure this out.
>>>
>>> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
>>> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
>>> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses
>>> in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>>>
>> Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
>> plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
>> within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
>> profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may be
>> modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the official
>> blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often different
>> from these in warm ones.
>>
>> The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and thus
>> do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in general.
>>
>> A simplified response, this, I think :-)

> Simple, but correct as far as I know for Bordeaux

> In other places though, occasionally you get "field blends". Here,
> different varieties are grown in the same vineyard. If they are old
> vineyards, the varieties may be very well mixed, and the owner may not
> even know or care what the viarieties are. In more recently planted
> vineyards for field blends, each row will contain only one variety, but
> adjacent rows may well be different.


As Anders hinted the situation is in fact really quite complicated and
varied, certainly in Saint-Emilion. Some of the modern style wines
like Valandraud and Le Dôme are made from grapes grown on difgerent
parcels in the Jurisdiction which may have very different soil types,
heights above sea level, exposure and other aspects of difference
which go to make up ”terroir•. Equally many of the traditional great
growths, although having contiguous parcles of diffferent grape
vartieties, have different soil types across their vineyard and plant
accordingly. This is particularly true of thos on the Côte which may
have part of the plateau, th Côte itself and then the foot of the Cote
all producing very different wine for blending even from grapes of the
same cepage. It is also true of many Chateaux on the plateau that
differences bnetween parcels produce very different wines. I had a
most interesting tasting in June of 2008 Merlot barrel samples at
Grand Pontet where the difference in height and vine age of the plots
was very illustrative of the complexities of all this. Some winemakers
will actually make two wines from one area in order that the different
soil types may be used at their best — at the east end of the Cotes,
for example the Lavaus at Ch. Bernateau make both an eponymous wine
grown on argilo-calcerous soil and Ch.Peyronneau on sand and gravels.
Both have been Grand Crus in recent vintages but they show the
differences of terroir although the cepage is broadly similar.

Tim Hartley

Terroir and blends
 

On Dec 12, 9:14�am, "Dee Dovey" > wrote:
> I can't figure this out.
>
> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses in
> his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>
> Thanks a lot for any who can understand my question as phrased, and answer.

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> It just happens that in the southern areas you need more than
> one grape variety to obtain a balanced well rounded wine.

That's why they have three grapes in Champagne, but only one each
in Burgundy down south ... ;-)

scnr,

M.

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> Yes, for bubbly Champagne is fairly southern, its ideal terroir
> being England one assumes that over there they would not blend
> :-)))

Of course, why should you blend Wrotham Pinot, that superb grape
for bubblies?

:-)

M.

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>>> It just happens that in the southern areas you need more than one
>>> grape variety to obtain a balanced well rounded wine.
>>
>> That's why they have three grapes in Champagne, but only one each
>> in Burgundy down south ... ;-)
>
> Yes, for bubbly Champagne is fairly southern, its ideal terroir being
> England one assumes that over there they would not blend :-)))

Smiley noted, but I feel duty-bound to point out that of course we blend
grapes for our sparkling wine. However, it is nice to see that our
terroir (actually the same seam of rock that goes through Champagne) is
getting recognition.

More seriously, I am not sure I understnd your point about southern
areas needing to blend varieties. Were you thinking specifically of
Bordeaux? What examples do you have in mind?

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

Steve Slatcher wrote:
> Mike Tommasi wrote:

>
> More seriously, I am not sure I understnd your point about southern
> areas needing to blend varieties. Were you thinking specifically of
> Bordeaux? What examples do you have in mind?
>

Well, the S Rhone Valley is replete with blends and most Italian reds
were historically blends (I think). The thinking is that, by blending,
one can make up for the deificiencies of one variety with another; why
that should be more prevalent in the southern areas has to do with the
reduced acidity found in hotter growing regions (maybe).

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> In France Bordeaux, Provence, Languedoc, Rhone are all blends.
> Colder c[l]imates like Burgundy, Loire, Alsace are single
> variety. Even Beaujolais.

Coldest climate in France, Champagne, is ...?

scnr

M.

Terroir and blends
 

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i melding
...
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>>
>>> In France Bordeaux, Provence, Languedoc, Rhone are all blends. Colder
>>> c[l]imates like Burgundy, Loire, Alsace are single
>>> variety. Even Beaujolais.
>>
>> Coldest climate in France, Champagne, is ...?
>
> yes yes, but as you know exceptio probat regulam...
>
Blanc de blancs is the exception to the exception I understand
:-) Anders

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>> Steve Slatcher wrote:
>>> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>>
>>> More seriously, I am not sure I understnd your point about southern
>>> areas needing to blend varieties. Were you thinking specifically of
>>> Bordeaux? What examples do you have in mind?
>>>
>>
>> Well, the S Rhone Valley is replete with blends and most Italian reds
>> were historically blends (I think). The thinking is that, by blending,
>> one can make up for the deificiencies of one variety with another; why
>> that should be more prevalent in the southern areas has to do with the
>> reduced acidity found in hotter growing regions (maybe).
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
> In France Bordeaux, Provence, LAnguedoc, Rhone are all blends. Colder
> cimates like Burgundy, Loire, Alsace are single variety. Even Beaujolais.
>
> Same in Italy, Barolo is single variety, Chianti is becoming single
> variety but that may indeed be one of the great mistakes i nthe wine
> world, Chianti has always traditionally been blended. Look at Brunello,
> another single variety aberration - to the point that nearly all
> producers were recently caught blending: it's fraud, but in many ways it
> is understandable, Brunello needs IMHO some rounding off, which explains
> why it is so hard to find a TRULY remarkable Brunello :-)

I am not at all convinced. There are plenty of varietal wines in
Southern Italy. And in South West France south of Bordeaux. I would
explain it more by historical accident than design. The better wines
from New World areas (many of which tend to be warmer that cooler
climate Europe) are also likely to be mono-varietal.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Slatcher wrote:
>> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>
>>
>> More seriously, I am not sure I understnd your point about southern
>> areas needing to blend varieties. Were you thinking specifically of
>> Bordeaux? What examples do you have in mind?
>>
>
> Well, the S Rhone Valley is replete with blends and most Italian reds
> were historically blends (I think). The thinking is that, by blending,
> one can make up for the deificiencies of one variety with another; why
> that should be more prevalent in the southern areas has to do with the
> reduced acidity found in hotter growing regions (maybe).


surely not just making up for deficiencies but sometimes taking advantage
of synergies?

pk

Terroir and blends
 

On Dec 15, 9:16�am, Michael Pronay > wrote:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> > Yes, for bubbly Champagne is fairly southern, its ideal terroir
> > being England one assumes that over there they would not blend
> > :-)))
>
> Of course, why should you blend Wrotham Pinot, that superb grape
> for bubblies?
>
> :-)
>
> M.

Dr Dick Peterson is making a terrific bubbly in the Napa Valley from
Wrotham Pinot.

Terroir and blends
 

> However, it is nice to see that our terroir (actually the same seam of
> rock that goes through Champagne) is getting recognition.

Could you please expand on that? Provide support? Define seam?

JB

Terroir and blends
 

Ronin wrote:
>> However, it is nice to see that our terroir (actually the same seam
>> of rock that goes through Champagne) is getting recognition.
>
> Could you please expand on that? Provide support? Define seam?

By seam[1] I mean the same level of limestone as it was deposited.
After deposition, the seam distorted. It now dips under the English
Channel, and it breaks through to the surface in Champagne and Southern
England to form the South Downs. It will not be identical rock, as it
is obviously in 2 different places, but it was laid down at the same
time and by more or less the same process.

As for support, you will find quite a few references to it being
(nearly) the same rock on the Web. I recently saw a section diagram
showing the limestone layer as I described it above, but unfortunately I
cannot remember where. I must admit I have not examined the geological
basis for the claim, but I see no reason to doubt it.

I know "seam" is used for coal, but maybe I misused it in applying to
limestone.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> Ronin wrote:
>>> However, it is nice to see that our terroir (actually the same seam
>>> of rock that goes through Champagne) is getting recognition.
>>
>> Could you please expand on that? Provide support? Define seam?
>
> Two tectonic plates walked into a bar. They got smashed.
>
> Steve are you thinking about Avalonia?

After a quick Wikipedia check on Avalonia I don't think so, Mike.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

Steve Slatcher wrote:
> Ronin wrote:
>>> However, it is nice to see that our terroir (actually the same seam
>>> of rock that goes through Champagne) is getting recognition.
>>
>> Could you please expand on that? Provide support? Define seam?
>
> By seam[1] I mean the same level of limestone as it was deposited. After
> deposition, the seam distorted. It now dips under the English Channel,
> and it breaks through to the surface in Champagne and Southern England
> to form the South Downs. It will not be identical rock, as it is
> obviously in 2 different places, but it was laid down at the same time
> and by more or less the same process.
>
> As for support, you will find quite a few references to it being
> (nearly) the same rock on the Web. I recently saw a section diagram
> showing the limestone layer as I described it above, but unfortunately I
> cannot remember where. I must admit I have not examined the geological
> basis for the claim, but I see no reason to doubt it.
>
> I know "seam" is used for coal, but maybe I misused it in applying to
> limestone.

Er, sorry. I meant chalk of course, not limestone. And the geological
term for my "dip" is syncline. And "seam" is stratum, or layer. That's
what comes from posting as soon as you wake up!

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

Steve Slatcher wrote:

> Er, sorry. I meant chalk of course, not limestone. And the geological
> term for my "dip" is syncline. And "seam" is stratum, or layer. That's
> what comes from posting as soon as you wake up!
>

No problem, Steve. You're better off than posting when you're asleep :P

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Terroir and blends
 

"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
...
> Ronin wrote:
>>> However, it is nice to see that our terroir (actually the same seam of
>>> rock that goes through Champagne) is getting recognition.
>>
>> Could you please expand on that? Provide support? Define seam?
>
> By seam[1] I mean the same level of limestone as it was deposited. After
> deposition, the seam distorted. It now dips under the English Channel,
> and it breaks through to the surface in Champagne and Southern England to
> form the South Downs. It will not be identical rock, as it is obviously
> in 2 different places, but it was laid down at the same time and by more
> or less the same process.
>
Actually, it is pretty close to being uniform.
Graham

Terroir and blends
 

"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
...
> Anders Tørneskog wrote:
>> "Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
>> ...
>>> I can't figure this out.
>>>
>>> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
>>> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
>>> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he
>>> uses in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>>>
>> Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
>> plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
>> within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
>> profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may
>> be modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the
>> official blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often
>> different from these in warm ones.
>>
>> The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and
>> thus do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in
>> general.
>>
>> A simplified response, this, I think :-)
>
> Simple, but correct as far as I know for Bordeaux
>
> In other places though, occasionally you get "field blends". Here,
> different varieties are grown in the same vineyard. If they are old
> vineyards, the varieties may be very well mixed, and the owner may not
> even know or care what the viarieties are. In more recently planted
> vineyards for field blends, each row will contain only one variety, but
> adjacent rows may well be different.
>
> --
> Steve Slatcher


When you say, "Here, different varieties ......"
Where is "here"?
Thanks,
Dee Dee

Terroir and blends
 

"Bi!!" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 9:14?am, "Dee Dovey" > wrote:
> I can't figure this out.
>
> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he uses
> in
> his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>
> Thanks a lot for any who can understand my question as phrased, and
> answer.
>
> Dee Dee

I think it's important to remember that "terroir" is more than soil.
It's the entire enviorment of the vineyard including the aspect of the
vines in relation to the sun, the drainage and humidity, the relative
temperatures of the air and the soil throughout the months, weeks,
days, hours, etc.


Thanks, Bill. Yes, I do realize that.
I appreciate your posting.
Dee Dee

Terroir and blends
 

Dee Dovey wrote:
> "Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Anders Tørneskog wrote:
>>> "Dee Dovey" > skrev i melding
>>> ...
>>>> I can't figure this out.
>>>>
>>>> If a Bordeaux blend is made up of several grapes, and terroir is so
>>>> important, does a winery that blends several grapes also own several
>>>> terroirs (plots of land) where he grows the different grapes that he
>>>> uses in his wine that he labels that is from his winery?
>>>>
>>> Good question. The chateaux of Bordeaux generally comprise a contiguous
>>> plot of land which is planted with a variety of grapes. The proportion
>>> within a given plot depends on the aptitude of the land and the decided
>>> profile for the winery - traditions that often are centuries old but may
>>> be modified over time. Furthermore, the grapes actually used in the
>>> official blend depend on the vintage - the blends in cold years are often
>>> different from these in warm ones.
>>>
>>> The cheaper Bordeaux wines may well be sourced from different plots and
>>> thus do not display much terroir other than that of Bordeaux itself in
>>> general.
>>>
>>> A simplified response, this, I think :-)
>> Simple, but correct as far as I know for Bordeaux
>>
>> In other places though, occasionally you get "field blends". Here,
>> different varieties are grown in the same vineyard. If they are old
>> vineyards, the varieties may be very well mixed, and the owner may not
>> even know or care what the viarieties are. In more recently planted
>> vineyards for field blends, each row will contain only one variety, but
>> adjacent rows may well be different.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Slatcher
>
>
> When you say, "Here, different varieties ......"
> Where is "here"?

It is not common these days.

I recently heard that they still exist in Portugal - for the many
varieties that go into Port for example, and table wines now.

In Alscace, Marcel Deiss is well-known for keeping the idea alive as a
positive thing.

I haven't read it myself yet, but this article may be of interest:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...IGNPKKE691.DTL

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Terroir and blends
 

Steve Slatcher > wrote:

[Field blends]

> It is not common these days.
>
> I recently heard that they still exist in Portugal - for the
> many varieties that go into Port for example, and table wines
> now.

There has always been "Gemischter Satz" (= field blend) in Vienna,
which very recently has grown extremely popular and has even been
recognized as a "Presidio" product by Slow Food. (Not that I'd
know what a "presidio product" might be, but everybody seems to
be quite proud about it.)

M.

Terroir and blends
 

On 2009-12-18 00:09:50 -0800, Steve Slatcher > said:

>>
>> By seam[1] I mean the same level of limestone as it was deposited.
>> After deposition, the seam distorted. It now dips under the English
>> Channel, and it breaks through to the surface in Champagne and Southern
>> England to form the South Downs. It will not be identical rock, as it
>> is obviously in 2 different places, but it was laid down at the same
>> time and by more or less the same process.
>>
>> As for support, you will find quite a few references to it being
>> (nearly) the same rock on the Web. I recently saw a section diagram
>> showing the limestone layer as I described it above, but unfortunately
>> I cannot remember where. I must admit I have not examined the
>> geological basis for the claim, but I see no reason to doubt it.
>>
>> I know "seam" is used for coal, but maybe I misused it in applying to
>> limestone.
>
> Er, sorry. I meant chalk of course, not limestone. And the geological
> term for my "dip" is syncline. And "seam" is stratum, or layer. That's
> what comes from posting as soon as you wake up!

Thanks.... Amazing what you can learn on this chat. I asked about
"seam" as here in the far western US, "seam" tended to be used for a
dike or some formation which ran across layers of laid rock - as in a
seam of gold ore...