The question is, why is wine the only exception to the notion that all
food products should be labelled with a list of ingredients.

It appears that, in Europe at least, there are over 400 substances
that you can add to wine, many of them not very savoury.

I understand that the consumer is not always able to undestand the
meaning of these lists of ingredients. For example, many look for food
products that contain "natural flavouring" as opposed to "artificial
flavouring", thinking that "natural" means, for example, that an
apricot drink actually has had a flavour added that was directly
derived from the fruit. Nothing is further from the truth of course,
natural flavouring is a chemical made from precursors that are
obtained from natural sources, but it is an artificial flavour.

Some countries oblige wineries to mention that a wine may "contain
sulfites", but no quantities are given.

Is it desirable to know what went into a wine? I think so. I have
spent enough time around wineries to realize that in many even
reputable places all kinds of things are done to wine to make it fit
into a market mold. Acidification, sugaring, enzymes, correctors,
treatments using potassium cyanide or ferric chloride and other nasty
things, flavours, wood chips, water, etc..

Of course, there are also wineries that are proud to use a lighter
approach, at most using some sulfites before bottling to protect the
wine.

What do you think? List of ingredient and procedures? Or not?

Mike



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Is it desirable to know what went into a wine? I think so. I have
> spent enough time around wineries to realize that in many even
> reputable places all kinds of things are done to wine to make it fit
> into a market mold. Acidification, sugaring, enzymes, correctors,
> treatments using potassium cyanide [snip]

That's not quite right, Mike. I suspect you mean potassium ferrocyanide (or
ferrocyanate), which IIRC is used to remove excess copper from wine.
Potassium cyanide is NEVER used in winemaking! It is extremely poisonous.

or ferric chloride and other nasty
> things, flavours, wood chips, water, etc..
>
> Of course, there are also wineries that are proud to use a lighter
> approach, at most using some sulfites before bottling to protect the
> wine.
>
> What do you think? List of ingredient and procedures? Or not?

Here in the US there is a list of permissible additives to wine. The list
isn't very long - surely not as many as 400 items. Many of them do not
actually remain in the finished product (e.g. yeast, fining materials).
Furthermore, the use of and amounts thereof are generally regarded as
proprietary information by winemakers - i.e., "trade secrets" - although
they do have to be reported to the government.

Anyway, ingredient labeling on wine is something that will surely be
resisted by wineries in any country, if for no other reasons than it is an a
further administrative pain in the butt for them, and labels are crowded
enough as it is.

Tom S

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:47:49 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>The question is, why is wine the only exception to the notion that all
>food products should be labelled with a list of ingredients.
>
>It appears that, in Europe at least, there are over 400 substances
>that you can add to wine, many of them not very savoury.
>

Here is the list of things you can do to or add to wine :

COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 1493/1999
of 17 May 1999
on the common organisation of the market in wine

ANNEX IV

LIST OF AUTHORISED OENOLOGICAL PRACTICES AND PROCESSES
1. Oenological practices and processes which may be applied to fresh
grapes, grape must, grape must in fermentation, grape must in
fermentation extracted from raisined grapes, concentrated grape must
and new wine still in fermentation:
(a) aeration or the addition of oxygen;
(b) heat treatment;
(c) centrifuging and filtration, with or without an inert filtering
agent, on condition that no undesirable residue is left in the
products so treated;
(d) use of carbon dioxide, argon or nitrogen, either alone or
combined, solely in order to create an inert atmosphere and to handle
the product shielded from the air;
(e) use of yeasts for wine production;
(f) use of one or more of the following practices to encourage the
growth of yeasts;
- addition of diammonium phosphate or ammonium sulphate within certain
limits,
- addition of ammonium sulphite or ammonium bisulphite within certain
limits,
- addition of thiamin hydrochloride within certain limits;
(g) use of sulphur dioxide, potassium bisulphite or potassium
metabisulphite which may also be called potassium disulphite or
potassium pyrosulphite;
(h) elimination of sulphur dioxide by physical processes;
(i) treatment of white must and new white wine still in fermentation
with charcoal for oenological use, within certain limits;
(j) clarification by means of one or more of the following substances
for oenological use:
- edible gelatine,
- isinglass,
- casein and potassium caseinate,
- ovalbumin and/or lactalbumin,
- bentonite,
- silicon dioxide as a gel or colloidal solution,
- kaolin,
- tannin,
- pectinolytic enzymes,
- an enzymatic preparation of betaglucanase, under conditions to be
determined;
(k) use of sorbic acid or potassium sorbate;
(l) use of tartaric acid for acidification purposes under the
conditions laid down in points E and G of Annex V;
(m) use of one or more of the following substances for deacidification
purposes under the conditions laid down in points E and G of Annex V:
- neutral potassium tartrate,
- potassium bicarbonate,
- calcium carbonate, which may contain small quantities of the double
calcium salt of L (+) tartaric and L (-) malic acids,
- calcium tartrate,
- tartaric acid, under conditions to be determined,
- a homogeneous preparation of tartaric acid and calcium carbonate in
equivalent proportions and finely pulverised;
(n) the use of Aleppo pine resin under conditions to be determined;
(o) the use of preparations of yeast cell wall, within certain limits;
(p) the use of polyvinylpolypyrrolidone within certain limits and
under conditions to be determined;
(q) the use of lactic bacteria in a vinous suspension under conditions
to be determined;
(r) the addition of lysozyme within limits and under conditions to be
determined.
2. Oenological practices and processes which may be applied to grape
must intended for the manufacture of rectified concentrated grape
must:
(a) aeration;
(b) heat treatment;
(c) centrifuging and filtration, with or without an inert filtering
agent, on condition that no undesirable residue is left in the product
so treated;
(d) use of sulphur dioxide, potassium bisulphite or potassium
metabisulphite which may also be called potassium disulphite or
potassium pyrosulphite;
(e) elimination of sulphur dioxide by physical processes;
(f) treatment with charcoal for oenological use;
(g) use of calcium carbonate, which may contain small quantities of
the double calcium salt of L (+) tartaric and L (-) malic acids;
(h) use of ion exchange resins under conditions to be determined.
3. Processes and oenological practices which may be applied to grape
must in fermentation intended for direct human consumption as such,
wine suitable for producing table wine, table wine, sparkling wine,
aerated sparkling wine, semi-sparkling wine, aerated semi-sparkling
wine, liqueur wine and quality wines psr:
(a) use in dry wines, and in quantities not exceeding 5 %, of fresh
lees which are sound and undiluted and contain yeasts resulting from
the recent vinification of dry wines;
(b) aeration or bubbling using argon or nitrogen;
(c) heat treatment;
(d) centrifuging and filtration, with or without an inert filtering
agent, on condition that no undesirable residue is left in the
products so treated;
(e) use of carbon dioxide, argon or nitrogen, either alone or
combined, solely in order to create an inert atmosphere and to handle
the product shielded from the air;
(f) addition of carbon dioxide, within certain limits,
(g) use, under the conditions laid down in this Regulation, of sulphur
dioxide, potassium bisulphite or potassium metabisulphite, which may
also be called potassium disulphite or potassium pyrosulphite;
(h) addition of sorbic acid or potassium sorbate provided that the
final sorbic acid content of the treated product on its release to the
market for direct human consumption does not exceed 200 mg/l;
(i) addition of L-ascorbic acid up to certain limits;
(j) addition of citric acid for wine stabilisation purposes, within
certain limits;
(k) use of tartaric acid for acidification purposes under the
conditions laid down in points E and G of Annex V;
(l) use of one or more of the following substances for deacidification
purposes under the conditions laid down in points E and G of Annex V:
- neutral potassium tartrate,
- potassium bicarbonate,
- calcium carbonate, which may contain small quantities of the double
calcium salt of L (+) tartaric and L (-) malic acids,
- calcium tartrate,
- tartaric acid, under conditions to be determined,
- a homogeneous preparation of tartaric acid and calcium carbonate in
equivalent proportions and finely pulverised;
(m) clarification by means of one or more of the following substances
for oenological use:
- edible gelatine,
- isinglass,
- casein and potassium caseinate,
- ovalbumin and/or lactalbumin,
- bentonite,
- silicon dioxide as a gel or colloidal solution,
- kaolin;
- an enzymatic preparation of betaglucanase, under conditions to be
determined;
(n) addition of tannin;
(o) treatment of white wines with charcoal for oenological use, within
certain limits,
(p) treatment, under conditions to be laid down:
- of grape must in fermentation intended for direct human consumption
as such, white wines and rosé wines with potassium ferrocyanide,
- of red wines with potassium ferrocyanide or with calcium phytate;
(q) addition of metatartaric acid within certain limits;
(r) use of acacia;
(s) use of DL tartaric acid, also called racemic acid, or of is
neutral salt of potassium, under conditions to be laid down, for
precipitating excess calcium;
(t) use, for the manufacture of sparkling wines obtained by
fermentation in bottle and with the lees separated by disgorging:
- of calcium alginate,
or
- of potassium alginate.
(ta) the use of yeasts for wine production, dry or in wine suspension,
for the production of sparkling wine;
(tb) the addition, in the production of sparkling wine, of thiamine
and ammonium salts to the basic wines, to encourage the growth of
yeasts, under the following conditions:
- for nutritive salts, diammonium phosphate or ammonium sulphate
within certain limits,
- for growth factors, thiamine in the form of thiamine hydrochloride,
within certain limits;
(u) use of discs of pure paraffin impregnated with allyl
isothiocyanate to create sterile atmosphere, solely in Member States
in which it is traditional and so long as it is not forbidden by
national law, provided that they are used only in containers holding
more than 20 litres and that there is no trace of allyl isothiocyanate
in the wine;
(v) addition, to assist the precipitation of tartar, of
- potassium bitartrate
- calcium tartrate, within limits and under conditions to be
determined;
(w) use of copper sulphate to eliminate defects of taste or smell in
the wine, up to certain limits;
(x) the use of preparations of yeast cell wall, within certain limits;
(y) the use of polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, within certain limits and
conditions to be determined;
(z) the use of lactic bacteria in a vinous suspension under conditions
to be determined;
(za) addition of caramel within the meaning of Directive 94/36/EC of
the European Parliament and of the Council of 30 June 1994 on colours
for use in foodstuffs(1) to reinforce the colour of liqueur wines and
liqueur wines psr;
(zb) addition of lysozme, within limits and under conditions to be
determined.
4. Oenological practices and processes that can be used for the
products referred to in the introductory sentence to paragraph 3,
solely under conditions of use to be determined:
(a) addition of oxygen;
(b) electrodialysis treatment to ensure the tartaric stabilisation of
the wine;
(c) use of a urease to reduce the level of urea in the wine.



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

In article >,
says...
>
>The question is, why is wine the only exception to the notion that all
>food products should be labelled with a list of ingredients.
>
>It appears that, in Europe at least, there are over 400 substances
>that you can add to wine, many of them not very savoury.
>
>I understand that the consumer is not always able to undestand the
>meaning of these lists of ingredients. For example, many look for food
>products that contain "natural flavouring" as opposed to "artificial
>flavouring", thinking that "natural" means, for example, that an
>apricot drink actually has had a flavour added that was directly
>derived from the fruit. Nothing is further from the truth of course,
>natural flavouring is a chemical made from precursors that are
>obtained from natural sources, but it is an artificial flavour.
>
>Some countries oblige wineries to mention that a wine may "contain
>sulfites", but no quantities are given.
>
>Is it desirable to know what went into a wine? I think so. I have
>spent enough time around wineries to realize that in many even
>reputable places all kinds of things are done to wine to make it fit
>into a market mold. Acidification, sugaring, enzymes, correctors,
>treatments using potassium cyanide or ferric chloride and other nasty
>things, flavours, wood chips, water, etc..
>
>Of course, there are also wineries that are proud to use a lighter
>approach, at most using some sulfites before bottling to protect the
>wine.
>
>What do you think? List of ingredient and procedures? Or not?
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France

Mike, an interesting proposition. I, however, don't wish to see such a list.
I'd rather have the winemaker's notes on harvest brix, pressing
considerations, aging, cooperage, etc. but that is just MHO.

Hunt

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> The question is, why is wine the only exception to the notion that all
> food products should be labelled with a list of ingredients.
>
<snip/>

I hope you don't mind my snip. Your question started with 'why' and I
suggest that it might be because the wine producing community is influential
enough to pressure governments to let it lie/ leave wine alone. Rothschild
doesn't just look after (albeit vast) vineyards, afterall. Just a glib
thought but relevant, I think.
Your average consumer is about as likely to know Tartrazine as s/he is
Potassium Metabisulphate or Nicotine but once it's on the label some of us
might make the effort to find out. I think that not confusing the customer
ain't a reason. Oh no, business as usual. Most wine production is about
sales/ profit (my own being an exception: I can't give it away ;-() and as
such should be understood or read like any product. Hmm....
..........Co- Op mushy peas no longer contain tartrazine, Marlboro 'Nicotine
Delivery System' cigarettes ain't selling like they were last year and
Sainsbury's sell organic food.
I'd like to go on but some of you might be pleased to know that it's bedtime
here.

Regards
Sammy

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:47:49 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>The question is, why is wine the only exception to the notion that all
>food products should be labelled with a list of ingredients.
>
>It appears that, in Europe at least, there are over 400 substances
>that you can add to wine, many of them not very savoury.
>
>I understand that the consumer is not always able to undestand the
>meaning of these lists of ingredients. For example, many look for food
>products that contain "natural flavouring" as opposed to "artificial
>flavouring", thinking that "natural" means, for example, that an
>apricot drink actually has had a flavour added that was directly
>derived from the fruit. Nothing is further from the truth of course,
>natural flavouring is a chemical made from precursors that are
>obtained from natural sources, but it is an artificial flavour.
>
>Some countries oblige wineries to mention that a wine may "contain
>sulfites", but no quantities are given.
>
>Is it desirable to know what went into a wine? I think so. I have
>spent enough time around wineries to realize that in many even
>reputable places all kinds of things are done to wine to make it fit
>into a market mold. Acidification, sugaring, enzymes, correctors,
>treatments using potassium cyanide or ferric chloride and other nasty
>things, flavours, wood chips, water, etc..
>
>Of course, there are also wineries that are proud to use a lighter
>approach, at most using some sulfites before bottling to protect the
>wine.
>
>What do you think? List of ingredient and procedures? Or not?
>
In the USA, ingredients are required to be listed on a label only if
they exceed a certain threshold, which varies according to each
particular ingredient. For example, wines that contain less than a
certain proportion of sulfites are not required to carry the phrase
"Contains Sulfites" on the label. Of course in the EU the phrase is
not required at all regardless of the proportion, leading many people
to tell me in all sincerity that European winemakers don't use
sulfites and that that is why they didn't get headaches from drinking
wines on their latest trip to Europe but still get them from American
wines.

Also, it is possible for a food to carry on the label the phrase "Fat
[insert just about anything else here]-Free when in fact it contains a
measurable amount of fat, but the fat content is low enough to qualify
for this phrasing.

I'm not sure exactly how this plays into your question but it's
something to be considered.

Vino

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:17:34 GMT, Vino > wrote:

>Of course in the EU the phrase is
>not required at all regardless of the proportion, leading many people
>to tell me in all sincerity that European winemakers don't use
>sulfites and that that is why they didn't get headaches from drinking
>wines on their latest trip to Europe but still get them from American
>wines.

Well, that adds fuel to the argument that headaches have nothing to do
with sulfites. Sulfites are used in Europe.




Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:13:46 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:17:34 GMT, Vino > wrote:
>
>>Of course in the EU the phrase is
>>not required at all regardless of the proportion, leading many people
>>to tell me in all sincerity that European winemakers don't use
>>sulfites and that that is why they didn't get headaches from drinking
>>wines on their latest trip to Europe but still get them from American
>>wines.
>
>Well, that adds fuel to the argument that headaches have nothing to do
>with sulfites. Sulfites are used in Europe.
>
I've always enjoyed the "headaches are caused by sulfites" argument.
From my earliest student days I've always associated headaches with my
own choice of drinking to excess, be it silly things like a night of
tequila slammers (then) or opening that second bottle of port and then
rounding off the evening with Islay malt (now).

The sulfite argument always seems to be down to people who either
can't take responsibility for their own actions and always need to
blame someone else.

Of course they didn't get a headache in Europe because no one who knew
them were there to see them get sh*tfaced drunk. Back home they
weren't in that state at all, it was an allergic reaction to the
sulfites or something :-)

James


James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:50:23 +0100, James Dempster
> wrote:

>>
>I've always enjoyed the "headaches are caused by sulfites" argument.
>From my earliest student days I've always associated headaches with my
>own choice of drinking to excess, be it silly things like a night of
>tequila slammers (then) or opening that second bottle of port and then
>rounding off the evening with Islay malt (now).
>
>The sulfite argument always seems to be down to people who either
>can't take responsibility for their own actions and always need to
>blame someone else.
>
>Of course they didn't get a headache in Europe because no one who knew
>them were there to see them get sh*tfaced drunk. Back home they
>weren't in that state at all, it was an allergic reaction to the
>sulfites or something :-)

I enjoyed reading your post James, somehow people think that wine is
the only food product with sulfites.

It is strange how, irrespective of sulfite amounts, there are some
wines that in no time can give you a headache that feels like someone
is driving a screwdriver (not the drink) through your brain, while
other wines seem to allow you to drink a quantity so generous that
other things may happen before you notice any headache...

One wine that consistently gives me a headache (and I do not often get
wine headaches) is Domaine Ott Blanc de Blancs (stupid name is it not,
as if other whites were not blanc de blancs). Maybe that is what gives
headaches, silly labels?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:50:23 +0100, James Dempster
> > wrote:
>
snip

Domaine Ott Blanc de Blancs (stupid name is it not,
> as if other whites were not blanc de blancs).

Hi Mike,
blanc de blancs traditionally means white wine from white grapes.
Linguistically speaking (is there any other way :-)) I suppose all white
wine is 'white of white' but on a wine label it should but often doesn't,
denote that it is a white made from only white grapes. Champagne and other
(white) fizzes are commonly made from black grapes.
Another thing, I *think/ just about believe* that there are very few rules
regarding use of the term blanc de blancs: it's possible that a producer or
retailer could label a red wine like that without getting into trouble.
I hope you like this info.
Regards
Sammy

"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:50:23 +0100, James Dempster
> > wrote:
>
snip

Domaine Ott Blanc de Blancs (stupid name is it not,
> as if other whites were not blanc de blancs).

Hi Mike,
blanc de blancs traditionally means white wine from white grapes.
Linguistically speaking (is there any other way :-)) I suppose all white
wine is 'white of white' but on a wine label it should but often doesn't,
denote that it is a white made from only white grapes. Champagne and other
(white) fizzes are commonly made from black grapes.
Another thing, I *think/ just about believe* that there are very few rules
regarding use of the term blanc de blancs: it's possible that a producer or
retailer could label a red wine like that without getting into trouble.
I hope you like this info.
Regards
Sammy

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:04:43 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:


>It is strange how, irrespective of sulfite amounts, there are some
>wines that in no time can give you a headache that feels like someone
>is driving a screwdriver (not the drink) through your brain, while
>other wines seem to allow you to drink a quantity so generous that
>other things may happen before you notice any headache...
>
I'm pretty sure that the body gets attuned to things a person eats or
drinks frequently. I've seen more of the screwdriver headaches with
unusual or untried foods/drinks than with those that are common in my
diet. Cheeses can be bad for headaches with some I know. Amongst my
friends this isn't a problem, more so is our delight in well matured
cheese. One often has to keep cheeses in the shed in the garden as his
wife won't let them in the house :-)

As for wines, whites always seem to be worse for that early-onset
headache than reds (which creep up on you for later). Talking of
which, there's a rather short vertical of Musar planned tomorrow for
my 40th, and I'll try to post notes here when I've recovered.

The causes of feeling unwell in all sorts of ways aren't just the
alcohol or the "sulfites". There are some wines which provoke in me a
horrible reaction which lasts for two days or so - sort of flu-like
with aching joints and a run down feeling (but no sniffles or cold
like symptoms). Fresh strawberries do the same (though
cooked/processed don't).

I don't know what the compound is, and can't really describe how it
smells/tastes. If I don't smell it (which I usually can) I can
immediately taste it in a wine and thus avoid more than a sip. It's
not likely to be sulfites or anything unnaturally added as it first
manifested itself when I was a child with strawberries fresh off the
plants in my grandmother's garden.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:04:43 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:


>It is strange how, irrespective of sulfite amounts, there are some
>wines that in no time can give you a headache that feels like someone
>is driving a screwdriver (not the drink) through your brain, while
>other wines seem to allow you to drink a quantity so generous that
>other things may happen before you notice any headache...
>
I'm pretty sure that the body gets attuned to things a person eats or
drinks frequently. I've seen more of the screwdriver headaches with
unusual or untried foods/drinks than with those that are common in my
diet. Cheeses can be bad for headaches with some I know. Amongst my
friends this isn't a problem, more so is our delight in well matured
cheese. One often has to keep cheeses in the shed in the garden as his
wife won't let them in the house :-)

As for wines, whites always seem to be worse for that early-onset
headache than reds (which creep up on you for later). Talking of
which, there's a rather short vertical of Musar planned tomorrow for
my 40th, and I'll try to post notes here when I've recovered.

The causes of feeling unwell in all sorts of ways aren't just the
alcohol or the "sulfites". There are some wines which provoke in me a
horrible reaction which lasts for two days or so - sort of flu-like
with aching joints and a run down feeling (but no sniffles or cold
like symptoms). Fresh strawberries do the same (though
cooked/processed don't).

I don't know what the compound is, and can't really describe how it
smells/tastes. If I don't smell it (which I usually can) I can
immediately taste it in a wine and thus avoid more than a sip. It's
not likely to be sulfites or anything unnaturally added as it first
manifested itself when I was a child with strawberries fresh off the
plants in my grandmother's garden.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

"Sammy" > wrote:

> blanc de blancs traditionally means white wine from white
> grapes. Linguistically speaking (is there any other way :-)) I
> suppose all white wine is 'white of white' but on a wine label
> it should but often doesn't, denote that it is a white made from
> only white grapes. Champagne and other (white) fizzes are
> commonly made from black grapes. Another thing, I *think/ just
> about believe* that there are very few rules regarding use of
> the term blanc de blancs: it's possible that a producer or
> retailer could label a red wine like that without getting into
> trouble.

I don't know if I really get you message. First, 99.9% of all
white wine is made from white grapes. There are well-known
exceptions: Champagne (except for those labelled "Blanc de blancs"
which are made from chardonnay only) and white zin the most
notable. Second: Most other fizzes worldwide are made from white
grapes. Third: The usage of "blanc de blancs" on the labels of
white wine (still or sparkling) is not restricted, as long as
there are no red grapes in the make-up. Fourth: "Blanc de blancs"
on the label of a red (or rosé) wine is ruled out, of course,
since it's misleading.

M.

>The causes of feeling unwell in all sorts of ways aren't just the
>alcohol or the "sulfites". There are some wines which provoke in me a
>horrible reaction which lasts for two days or so - sort of flu-like
>with aching joints and a run down feeling (but no sniffles or cold
>like symptoms). Fresh strawberries do the same (though
>cooked/processed don't).
>
>I don't know what the compound is, and can't really describe how it
>smells/tastes. If I don't smell it (which I usually can) I can
>immediately taste it in a wine and
>thus avoid more than a sip. It's
>not likely to be sulfites or anything unnaturally added as it first
>manifested itself when I was a child with strawberries fresh off the
>plants in my grandmother's garden


This sounds like an allergy to me.

Histamines are prevalent in red wines.
(I think this is right, but the physical scientists can clarify). I stopped
mixing red wine and cheese, because it makes my mouth burn, although wine or
cheese taken separately are OK for me. Ripe bananas and salad dressings can do
the same thing to me.

Mold growth may be a problem in the strawberries. I don't know about the wine.

Food allergy tests are very unreliable, so checking this is difficult.

Tom Schellberg

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> Histamines are prevalent in red wines.
> (I think this is right, but the physical scientists can clarify). I
stopped
> mixing red wine and cheese, because it makes my mouth burn, although wine
or
> cheese taken separately are OK for me.

I find that the mold that grows on Parmigiano Reggiano sometimes gives me
the feeling of sores in my mouth. It isn't the cheese itself in my case,
nor is it the cheese and wine combo. It goes away within minutes after I
stop eating the cheese.

Tom S

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
> Histamines are prevalent in red wines.
> (I think this is right, but the physical scientists can clarify). I
stopped
> mixing red wine and cheese, because it makes my mouth burn, although wine
or
> cheese taken separately are OK for me.

I find that the mold that grows on Parmigiano Reggiano sometimes gives me
the feeling of sores in my mouth. It isn't the cheese itself in my case,
nor is it the cheese and wine combo. It goes away within minutes after I
stop eating the cheese.

Tom S

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:01:16 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
>> Histamines are prevalent in red wines.
>> (I think this is right, but the physical scientists can clarify). I
>stopped
>> mixing red wine and cheese, because it makes my mouth burn, although wine
>or
>> cheese taken separately are OK for me.
>
>I find that the mold that grows on Parmigiano Reggiano sometimes gives me
>the feeling of sores in my mouth.

You should not be getting mold on your Parmigiano Reggiano...

Mike



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:01:16 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
>> Histamines are prevalent in red wines.
>> (I think this is right, but the physical scientists can clarify). I
>stopped
>> mixing red wine and cheese, because it makes my mouth burn, although wine
>or
>> cheese taken separately are OK for me.
>
>I find that the mold that grows on Parmigiano Reggiano sometimes gives me
>the feeling of sores in my mouth.

You should not be getting mold on your Parmigiano Reggiano...

Mike



Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail