Okay, I know that it's not uncommon for some people to be able to drink
white wine but get migraine headaches and other reactions from red wines,
there's plenty of theories on the net. Everything I see out there talks
about the "Red Wine Headache" syndrome.

But I seem to be just the opposite - Reds have NEVER bothered me, and Whites
USUALLY don't bother me, but every once in a while I'll have a glass of
white wine that does exactly the same as what's classically attributed to
red wine: Even mid-way through one glass around dinnertime, I'll start
feeling hang-over like symptoms (Headache, slight quasiness, etc) and it
will last through the following day.

Is this unusual, or what ?

- FM -

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:59:18 GMT, "Fred Mau"
> wrote:

>Okay, I know that it's not uncommon for some people to be able to drink
>white wine but get migraine headaches and other reactions from red wines,
>there's plenty of theories on the net. Everything I see out there talks
>about the "Red Wine Headache" syndrome.
>
>But I seem to be just the opposite - Reds have NEVER bothered me, and Whites
>USUALLY don't bother me, but every once in a while I'll have a glass of
>white wine that does exactly the same as what's classically attributed to
>red wine: Even mid-way through one glass around dinnertime, I'll start
>feeling hang-over like symptoms (Headache, slight quasiness, etc) and it
>will last through the following day.
>
>Is this unusual, or what ?

What sort of white wine do you drink? German wines used (not sure to
what extent it is still true) often to contain high Suphur Dioxide
levels. This can cause headaches in some people.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

"Steve Slatcher" > wrote in message
...
> What sort of white wine do you drink? German wines used (not sure to
> what extent it is still true) often to contain high Suphur Dioxide
> levels. This can cause headaches in some people.
>
> --
> Steve Slatcher
> http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Well, as I write this I'm still feeling the effects of a glass of BV Century
Cellars 2003 Sauvignon Blanc I had about 7 PM last evening. This last time,
maybe 6 months ago, it was Chardonnay but I don't recall the label. In
between we had dozens of various reds and whites all over the spectrum. Most
of what we consume is in the $6-$10 range, whatever catches our eye at the
local store. (Here in Oregon, the local grocery stores are surprisingly well
stocked). Not exactly MD 20/20 but not exactly Chateauneuf-du-Pape either.

I've seen some websites that blame wine headaches in general on "cheap"
wine. I'm not sure I buy this - One of our favorite table wines is Charles
Shaw a/k/a "Two Buck Chuck" from the local Trader Joe's, and it never
bothers me.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in556620.shtml


-
FM -

"Fred Mau" wrote in message

> I've seen some websites that blame wine headaches in general on "cheap"
> wine. I'm not sure I buy this - One of our favorite table wines is
Charles
> Shaw a/k/a "Two Buck Chuck" from the local Trader Joe's, and it never
> bothers me.

Our experience is the same (mine and my wife's). Not all cheap whites, but
some cheap whites. Never reds, never expensive whites. You mentioned BV --
thier Costal Chardonnay is one of our favorites and never a problem. Of the
ones we do have problems with, we notice a high percentage use plastic
corks. But not all plastic corks cause headaches.

Results are consistent. A headache white will always cause a headache, a
non-headache white will never cause one. If I try a new brand from
California that costs $7.99 or less (and especially if it has a plastic
cork), I'll take some Excedrin beforehand, and it seems to help. My wife,
however adheres to medical warnings and passes on the Excedrin, but then
suffers more.

By the way, this happens 4-5 times per year and we drink white wine 2-3
times per week.

\/

Steve Slatcher > wrote in message >. ..
> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:59:18 GMT, "Fred Mau"
> > wrote:
>
> >Okay, I know that it's not uncommon for some people to be able to drink
> >white wine but get migraine headaches and other reactions from red wines,
> >there's plenty of theories on the net. Everything I see out there talks
> >about the "Red Wine Headache" syndrome.
> >
> >But I seem to be just the opposite - Reds have NEVER bothered me, and Whites
> >USUALLY don't bother me, but every once in a while I'll have a glass of
> >white wine that does exactly the same as what's classically attributed to
> >red wine: Even mid-way through one glass around dinnertime, I'll start
> >feeling hang-over like symptoms (Headache, slight quasiness, etc) and it
> >will last through the following day.
> >
> >Is this unusual, or what ?
>
> What sort of white wine do you drink? German wines used (not sure to
> what extent it is still true) often to contain high Suphur Dioxide
> levels. This can cause headaches in some people.

Not just in German wines but white wines generally have higher S02
levels. Headaches, however are *not* typically a symptom of allergic
reactions to sulfites, which run to more typical allergic symptoms:
tightness and itchiness in the throat, respiratory problems, that sort
of thing.

- Mark W.

Steve Slatcher > wrote in message >. ..
> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:59:18 GMT, "Fred Mau"
> > wrote:
>
> >Okay, I know that it's not uncommon for some people to be able to drink
> >white wine but get migraine headaches and other reactions from red wines,
> >there's plenty of theories on the net. Everything I see out there talks
> >about the "Red Wine Headache" syndrome.
> >
> >But I seem to be just the opposite - Reds have NEVER bothered me, and Whites
> >USUALLY don't bother me, but every once in a while I'll have a glass of
> >white wine that does exactly the same as what's classically attributed to
> >red wine: Even mid-way through one glass around dinnertime, I'll start
> >feeling hang-over like symptoms (Headache, slight quasiness, etc) and it
> >will last through the following day.
> >
> >Is this unusual, or what ?
>
> What sort of white wine do you drink? German wines used (not sure to
> what extent it is still true) often to contain high Suphur Dioxide
> levels. This can cause headaches in some people.

Not just in German wines but white wines generally have higher S02
levels. Headaches, however are *not* typically a symptom of allergic
reactions to sulfites, which run to more typical allergic symptoms:
tightness and itchiness in the throat, respiratory problems, that sort
of thing.

- Mark W.

Fred, you honestly should either find an alternative drink or stop taking
the Excedrin, or any aspirin or Tylenol (or similar) pain relievers with
alcohol. My New Year's Resolution for 1 Jan 2004 was to stop taking any pain
medicines because they're like pointing a magnifying glass from the sun on
your liver when combined with any alcohol. My only pain has ever been
headaches and they were from either not enough sleep, reading too much, or
drinking too much. It's been very easy to give up the pills by forgoing the
"too much" in things! The sleep however is harder to control, but pain meds
don't really help that anyway.



"Vincent" > wrote in message
. com...
> "Fred Mau" wrote in message
>
>> I've seen some websites that blame wine headaches in general on "cheap"
>> wine. I'm not sure I buy this - One of our favorite table wines is
> Charles
>> Shaw a/k/a "Two Buck Chuck" from the local Trader Joe's, and it never
>> bothers me.
>
> Our experience is the same (mine and my wife's). Not all cheap whites, but
> some cheap whites. Never reds, never expensive whites. You mentioned BV --
> thier Costal Chardonnay is one of our favorites and never a problem. Of
> the
> ones we do have problems with, we notice a high percentage use plastic
> corks. But not all plastic corks cause headaches.
>
> Results are consistent. A headache white will always cause a headache, a
> non-headache white will never cause one. If I try a new brand from
> California that costs $7.99 or less (and especially if it has a plastic
> cork), I'll take some Excedrin beforehand, and it seems to help. My wife,
> however adheres to medical warnings and passes on the Excedrin, but then
> suffers more.
>
> By the way, this happens 4-5 times per year and we drink white wine 2-3
> times per week.
>
> \/
>
>

On 25 Nov 2004 14:48:57 -0800, (Mark Willstatter)
wrote:

>
>Not just in German wines but white wines generally have higher S02
>levels. Headaches, however are *not* typically a symptom of allergic
>reactions to sulfites, which run to more typical allergic symptoms:
>tightness and itchiness in the throat, respiratory problems, that sort
>of thing.
>
>- Mark W.


White wines have generally a higher combined SO2 level. And SO2 is
often causing headaches. It is nothing to do with allergy; is just a
normal reaction. Some people is more sensitive.

When grapes are not perfect, the level of free SO2 must be higher in
order to prevent unwanted fermentaions or disease of the wine. White
wines have often more tendence to combine SO2 then red wines
(therefore to have the same level of free SO2 you will have to have a
higher level of combined SO2). That partially explains why expensive
wines are often not giving headaches and why white wines are giving
more headaches than red wines.

SO2 is used even to select yeast.

In Europe the maximum level for combined SO2 allowed for quality wines
is 160 mg/l (the minimum -depending of the quality level and the
Country- is about 50 mg/l). Anyway a higher level than 110 mg/l can
cause headaches or, more precisely, that strange feeling like to have
a too small hat.

A suggestion: drink only wines made with grapes in perfect conditions!
And not only for sulfites level...

Antonio.
www.filicaja.it



www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti, non darne invece ai peccatori

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:09:27 +0100, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:13:03 GMT, Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti
> wrote:
>
>>In Europe the maximum level for combined SO2 allowed for quality wines
>>is 160 mg/l (the minimum -depending of the quality level and the
>>Country- is about 50 mg/l).
>
>Hi Antonio
>
>as discussed on IHV, there is no minimum !
>
>Mike

Hi Mike!

nice to meet you here!

For Chianti the minimum is 50 mg/l...

Probabely there are some quality wines categories where there is not
such a limit.

A.

www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti, non darne invece ai peccatori

Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti >
wrote:

> For Chianti the minimum is 50 mg/l...

First time ever I heard from an SO2 minimum in 30 years in wine.

You probably have a source for your assertion?

M.

I have been blaming "cheap whites" for the headaches that both my wife and I
sometime have after drinking certain wines. The evidence was stacked against
them (the most recent being a non-vintage Glen Ellen Chardonnay with a twist
off cap), with no plausible explanation as to *why*.

And while many theories have been discussed (including complex chemical
analysis), the answer (at least as it pertains to my wife and I) couldn't
have been more simple.... DEHYDRATION!!

When we're at a restaurant, we never order cheap wine (white or red), so
that narrowed down my "suspects" to cheap (those we have at home). But since
the waiters are keeping our water glasses filled, I'd never given it a
thought.

When we serve red at home, it's usually room temperature, so we drink ice
water to have something cool to drink along with it (and we have non-cheap
whites in a more formal dining room setting, where water is just routine).

So for those times that we have a less formal meal (in the kitchen), or just
sip wine while watching a movie, we're sometimes not drinking water along
with it, and these are most often the times we're trying out our bargain
aisle specials.

To test my theory, I withheld water while we enjoyed a 1995 Calon-Segur the
other night, and sure enough, we both had a headache the following morning
(not really bad, but the first *Boreaux headache* for either of us, ever).
Then last night, it was non-vintage, twist-off cap, Glen Ellen Chardonnay
(two 1/4 bottles each) with plenty of water, and bingo, no headache today.

\/

On 29 Nov 2004 13:31:58 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti >
>wrote:
>
>> For Chianti the minimum is 50 mg/l...
>
>First time ever I heard from an SO2 minimum in 30 years in wine.
>
>You probably have a source for your assertion?
>

I've tried to get a Chianti Superiore DOCG certification for a wine
with 45 mg/l combined SO2....

I was as surprised as you are now...

A.

www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti, non darne invece ai peccatori

Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti > wrote in message >. ..
> On 25 Nov 2004 14:48:57 -0800, (Mark Willstatter)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Not just in German wines but white wines generally have higher S02
> >levels. Headaches, however are *not* typically a symptom of allergic
> >reactions to sulfites, which run to more typical allergic symptoms:
> >tightness and itchiness in the throat, respiratory problems, that sort
> >of thing.
> >
> >- Mark W.
>
>
> White wines have generally a higher combined SO2 level. And SO2 is
> often causing headaches. It is nothing to do with allergy; is just a
> normal reaction. Some people is more sensitive.
>
> When grapes are not perfect, the level of free SO2 must be higher in
> order to prevent unwanted fermentaions or disease of the wine. White
> wines have often more tendence to combine SO2 then red wines
> (therefore to have the same level of free SO2 you will have to have a
> higher level of combined SO2). That partially explains why expensive
> wines are often not giving headaches and why white wines are giving
> more headaches than red wines.
>
> SO2 is used even to select yeast.
>
> In Europe the maximum level for combined SO2 allowed for quality wines
> is 160 mg/l (the minimum -depending of the quality level and the
> Country- is about 50 mg/l). Anyway a higher level than 110 mg/l can
> cause headaches or, more precisely, that strange feeling like to have
> a too small hat.
>
> A suggestion: drink only wines made with grapes in perfect conditions!
> And not only for sulfites level...
>
> Antonio.
> www.filicaja.it
>
Antonio, I call it an "allergy" and you call it a "sensitivity" but I
can tell you headaches are *not* a common symptom of sulfite
allergy/sensitivity. Because of the silly sulfite labeling rules we
have in the US, many wine consumers are convinced that sulfites are
causing problems when they are not. One place on the web where this
is discussed is he
http://www.wineloverspage.com/winead...swa030901.html. Excerpting
the most pertinent passage, "If you get a headache or a stuffy nose
after drinking wine, you may be allergic to something - perhaps the
histamines in some red wines. But it's not the sulfites."

Like Michael, your post is the first I've ever heard about a minimum
level for sulfites in wine and I am frankly skeptical. Wineries in
the US are not *required* to add sulfites at all, market their wine as
such and are allowed to omit the "contains sulfites" level if sulfite
content from fermentation is under 10 parts per million. It has to be
said that the resulting wine is usually not very good but it is
allowed. I would be very surprised if Europe demands the use of
sulfites curious if you can point us to any such regulation.

- Mark W.

On 29 Nov 2004 13:14:51 -0800, (Mark Willstatter)
wrote:

>>
>Antonio, I call it an "allergy" and you call it a "sensitivity" but I
>can tell you headaches are *not* a common symptom of sulfite
>allergy/sensitivity. Because of the silly sulfite labeling rules we
>have in the US, many wine consumers are convinced that sulfites are
>causing problems when they are not. One place on the web where this
>is discussed is he
>http://www.wineloverspage.com/winead...swa030901.html. Excerpting
>the most pertinent passage, "If you get a headache or a stuffy nose
>after drinking wine, you may be allergic to something - perhaps the
>histamines in some red wines. But it's not the sulfites."
>

Wine labelled during 2005 in the member Countries of the eu will also
mention the presence of sulfites.

SO2 opposes the absorbign process of B1 vitamin. On some people can
generate headache. This is sensitivity. If the producer has used good
quality grape, the level of SO2 is very low and will probabely not
cause headache even on sensitive people.

On people suffering from asthma, some sulfites can cause a crisis.
This is allergy. This is the reason why US (and now even the Countries
of the eu) imposes the label "contains sulfites".

About the minum of SO2. I'm checking the italian/european laws
regarding wine and the local rules regarding quality wine and, in
effect, I'm finding a lot of stuff about maximum levels but nothing
about minimum levels.

On the other hand I can assure you that at least the chamber of
commerce of Florence is not certifying quality wines with too little
level of SO2. I'll ask them why and let you know.

As you said, for the moment sulfites are really necessary for good
wine production and this could be the reason why the chamber of
commerce is not certifying quality wines with low level of SO2. I will
post the official answer of the chamber of commerce as soon as I get
it; I think it could be interesting.

Antonio.












>Like Michael, your post is the first I've ever heard about a minimum
>level for sulfites in wine and I am frankly skeptical. Wineries in
>the US are not *required* to add sulfites at all, market their wine as
>such and are allowed to omit the "contains sulfites" level if sulfite
>content from fermentation is under 10 parts per million. It has to be
>said that the resulting wine is usually not very good but it is
>allowed. I would be very surprised if Europe demands the use of
>sulfites curious if you can point us to any such regulation.
>


>- Mark W.

www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti, non darne invece ai peccatori

Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti >
wrote:

> I've tried to get a Chianti Superiore DOCG certification for a wine
> with 45 mg/l combined SO2....
>
> I was as surprised as you are now...

I am quite surprised about "Chianti Superiore DOCG". Never heard of
that DOCG before. Maybe that was the reason?

M.

On 30 Nov 2004 16:58:56 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:


>I am quite surprised about "Chianti Superiore DOCG". Never heard of
>that DOCG before. Maybe that was the reason?


Chianti Superiore DOCG it's a new part (seven years old) of Chianti
DOCG made on the idea of a small group of producers in the aim of
making easier the life of the consumer in the complicated Chianti DOCG
world. The idea was to give the consumer an easily recongnizaible
higher quality level of Chianti.

Nowadays we are about 10 producers from all different areas of
Chianti. We have higher quality parameters then the Chianti subzones,
including the classico, but we can produce everywhere in the Chianti
wine-area.

Antonio.


www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti, non darne invece ai peccatori

Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti >
wrote:

> Chianti Superiore DOCG it's a new part (seven years old) of
> Chianti DOCG made on the idea of a small group of producers in
> the aim of making easier the life of the consumer in the
> complicated Chianti DOCG world. The idea was to give the
> consumer an easily recongnizaible higher quality level of
> Chianti.
>
> Nowadays we are about 10 producers from all different areas of
> Chianti. We have higher quality parameters then the Chianti
> subzones, including the classico, but we can produce everywhere
> in the Chianti wine-area.

Thank you for the information. My 2002 edition of "Die Liste der
DOC- und DOCG-Weine", edited by Enoteca Italiana (Siena), does not
define "Chianti Superiore", but only mentions "Superiore" in
excluding it for "Riserva".

M.

"Antonio Nardi-Dei da Filicaja Dotti" > wrote in
message ...
>
>
>
> On 25 Nov 2004 14:48:57 -0800, (Mark Willstatter)
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Not just in German wines but white wines generally have higher S02
>>levels. Headaches, however are *not* typically a symptom of allergic
>>reactions to sulfites, which run to more typical allergic symptoms:
>>tightness and itchiness in the throat, respiratory problems, that sort
>>of thing.
>>
>>- Mark W.
>
>
> White wines have generally a higher combined SO2 level.

And SO2 is
> often causing headaches. It is nothing to do with allergy; is just a
> normal reaction. Some people is more sensitive.
>======================================
?????? When I drink red wines, bottled or even Box, I do get headaches,
but when i drink whites I do not, and even if I drink box zinfaldel which is
made with red grapes it does not bothers me. ?
Sergio
==========================================
>> SO2 is used even to select yeast.
>
> >
> A suggestion: drink only wines made with grapes in perfect conditions!
> And not only for sulfites level...
>
> Antonio.
> www.filicaja.it
>
>
>
> www.filicaja.it
> Tobia 4:17 Versa il tuo vino e deponi il tuo pane sulla tomba dei giusti,
> non darne invece ai peccatori

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:59:18 -0600, "sgbigfive" >
wrote:

>
>>======================================
> ?????? When I drink red wines, bottled or even Box, I do get headaches,
>but when i drink whites I do not, and even if I drink box zinfaldel which is
>made with red grapes it does not bothers me. ?
>Sergio
>==========================================

That's probabely something different...

A.

www.filicaja.it
Tobia 4:18 Panem tuum et vinum super sepulturam iusti constitue et noli ex eo manducare et bibere *** peccatoribus