Eddie > wrote:

> "One thing that can make a wine go bad is exposure to air and
> growth of bacteria. If you don't mind steaming your food with
> bacteria laden wine...go for it."

Prejudice from the "Sanitized®" fanatics.

> A reply from the food group said steaming kills any bacteria, so
> there is no danger, which makes sense. Any opinions from this
> group?

If a bottle leaks the wine oxidizes. That a natural reaction that
can easily be reproduced: Just kepp half a glass of wine untouched
near the window for a fortnight and taste: It turns brown, and
smells and tastes of browning apple peels.

That's all - no danger at all.

Wine turned bad by bacteria infection is extremely rare. Of some
50.000 wines tasted in my life I can't remember having come across
more than once or twice. Bacteria infection tends to happen at the
winery and measures against are taken there.

M.

Salut/Hi Eddie,

Michael Pronay has got it spot on, but I'll add my 2ps worth anyway.

le/on Thu, 06 Jan 2005 04:17:02 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Hi folks. I'm a newbie, just joined after posting a wine related
>thread in a binary food group. Never though about looking for a wine
>group.

Welcome.

>Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
>bottle that had leaked.

Yup, that happens, though the fact of leaking doesn't _necessarily_ mean the
wine is bad. If I can - sort of - explain...

If the cork made a perfect seal, no wine would leak out, and more
importantly, no air would ever come in either. However, I remember a
publication from Christie's wine auctions, which shows that wine levels more
or less signficantly below the bottom of the cork is _normal_ for old wines.
So, taking the logical conclusion, some amount of leakage past the cork has
to be considered as normal, since these bottles would originally have been
filled correctly. The only circumstances when it won't happen, is when the
wine is stored in a completely unchanging temperature, as it is temperature
variations that drive the leaking.

In the normal way of things, therefore, a small leakage is normal and could
be argued to be desirable (this touches on a "hot potato" relative to aging
wines under screwcaps) as it could help to power the maturation of the wine.

So, resuming, it is more or less normal for a very small amount of wine to
leak out past or through the cork, during long aging. What isn't normal is
for there to be enough leakage to mark the bottle. However, the fact that
wine has leaked out doesn't _necessarily_ mean that air has got in yet, nor
by any manner of means does it imply that the wine will be spoiled, though
it might be.

> I knew it was bad when I pulled out the cork (it came out way too easy) and took a small sip.

Again, the fact that the cork came out too easily is confirmation that the
cork was (to use a technical term) buggered. However, I've had quite a
number of such bottles in my misspent youth and middle age, which have not
shown any sign of fault. A really badly buggered cork can be very hard to
remove, as it slips into the bottle when you try to drive a corkscrew into
it! By the way, don't make the mistake of equating a buggered cork with a
corked wine. The two have only one thing in common, the wine bottle was
closed with a cork!! (grin).

>OK, I said, no good.

As long as you weren't persuading yourself that the wine wasn't good simply
because the cork was buggered! That happens too.

>I told her, why not use the wine instead of water? Mussels came out
>great. Then I began to think, should I have used bad wine to steam?

Hey.... "bad" in this context means what? As Michael said, a loose cork may
mean the wine is oxidised, but that doesn't necessarily make it undrinkable.
Aging a wine has long been held to be the result of slow controlled
oxidation (though this is now contested, and in fact may not be true).
Certainly tiny traces of oxygen don't do significant harm to wine. I'd also
want to add that I've never heard of a wine with a leaky cork turning to
vinegar - although many an old wive's tale claim the contrary. It's simply
not possible. The amount of air that would need to get in is simply huge, I
did the calculation once, and iirc it would need several _gallons_ of air to
convert all the alcohol from a bottle of wine into acetic acid. And in any
case, this wouldn't happen unless a bacterium called "acetobacter" were
present.

>I posed this question to my sister in Houston who is, along with her
>husband, a wine expert.
> She replied:

>"One thing that can make a wine go bad is exposure to air and growth
>of bacteria. If you don't mind steaming your food with bacteria laden
>wine...go for it."

I'm afraid she's not quite right. Firstly almost all bacteria are killed by
contact with alcohol (acetobacter isn't, of course, in the concentrations
usually found in wine, or you couldn't get vinegar). While exposure to air
and the presence of acetobacter will turn a wine to vinegar, I strongly
suspect it would be impossible for this to happen in a bottle, and in any
case the wine hasn't "gone bad", it has turned to vinegar - which is quite a
different thing.

In absence of acetobacter, and after VERY long exposure to moderate amounts
of oxygen, wine does turn bad - loosely speaking. It tastes nasty and smells
revolting. I have had a couple of wines like that in my life. Many wine
lovers have had a wine which has "died". It smells of ditches, or sewage.
But I very much doubt if the wine would do you harm.

As for your sisters emotive statement - I quote - "If you don't mind
steaming your food with bacteria laden wine...go for it" Speaking kindly,
that's inaccurate (And I am afraid that your opinion of your sister's
expertise may also be slightly inaccurate). Firstly, the fact that the wine
tasted slightly less good than normal - if it had tasted truly horrid, you
wouldn't have thought of steaming with it - shows that the wine WASN'T laden
with bacteria - I repeat that nearly all bacteria are killed by wine! Any
that survive would be killed by being brought to the boil. So I agree with
Michael on this. She has fallen into the trap of hysterical fear of
bacteria.

(I hope she has never had children, for her sake. All those nasty bugs
about. Bleurgh - kissing, touching someone - what a horrible thought).

>Any opinions from this group?

Hope that helped a bit, Eddie.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article >, hawaii-50@sbcglobal.
net says...
>
>Hi folks. I'm a newbie, just joined after posting a wine related
>thread in a binary food group. Never though about looking for a wine
>group.
>Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
>bottle that had leaked. I knew it was bad when I pulled out the cork
>(it came out way too easy) and took a small sip.
>OK, I said, no good. My wife was preparing to steam some mussels and
>I told her, why not use the wine instead of water? Mussels came out
>great. Then I began to think, should I have used bad wine to steam?
>I posed this question to my sister in Houston who is, along with her
>husband, a wine expert.
> She replied:
>"One thing that can make a wine go bad is exposure to air and growth
>of bacteria. If you don't mind steaming your food with bacteria laden
>wine...go for it."
>
>A reply from the food group said steaming kills any bacteria, so there
>is no danger, which makes sense.
>Any opinions from this group?
>Thanks much
>Eddie in San Jose

Welcome. As Michael and Ian have already addressed the salient points in your
post, I will not persue that, as I agree with both.

However, I would like to ask about your statement, "While turning my bottles
.... " Many red wines throw sediment as they age. It is generally best to let
sleeping bottles lie. That sediment falls to one side of the bottle as a
deposit. When you serve the wine, you want to separate that sediment from the
wine as well as is possible, with either your cautious pouring, or decanting.
Turning the bottles stirs up the deposit(s) and, at best, forces it to filter
back through the wine to attain the lowest level in the bottle. I like to
leave the bottles in position in the cellar, and even when I move them about
(as little as is possible to accommodate new wines, and help with my
cataloging) keep the lable at the top, rather like the whitewash mark on Port
bottles. I will then stand the bottle in the cellar for many hours (days?),
before I pour it, to allow much of this sediment to slide down the bottle to
the bottom. Now, inspecting the capsules is a good thing, for, as you found
out, corks can and do leak.

Hope this concept of keeping the bottles in one orientation for their cellar
experience doesn't lead to a flame-war, but so be it.

In a similar thread, "Wine Gone Bad?" or similar, I recounted my encounter
with a 1955 Taylor Port with a bad cork, and the surprising results. I STILL
have not actually tasted a '55 Taylor Vintage! :-{

Hunt

In article >, hawaii-50@sbcglobal.
net says...
>
>Hi folks. I'm a newbie, just joined after posting a wine related
>thread in a binary food group. Never though about looking for a wine
>group.
>Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
>bottle that had leaked. I knew it was bad when I pulled out the cork
>(it came out way too easy) and took a small sip.
>OK, I said, no good. My wife was preparing to steam some mussels and
>I told her, why not use the wine instead of water? Mussels came out
>great. Then I began to think, should I have used bad wine to steam?
>I posed this question to my sister in Houston who is, along with her
>husband, a wine expert.
> She replied:
>"One thing that can make a wine go bad is exposure to air and growth
>of bacteria. If you don't mind steaming your food with bacteria laden
>wine...go for it."
>
>A reply from the food group said steaming kills any bacteria, so there
>is no danger, which makes sense.
>Any opinions from this group?
>Thanks much
>Eddie in San Jose

Welcome. As Michael and Ian have already addressed the salient points in your
post, I will not persue that, as I agree with both.

However, I would like to ask about your statement, "While turning my bottles
.... " Many red wines throw sediment as they age. It is generally best to let
sleeping bottles lie. That sediment falls to one side of the bottle as a
deposit. When you serve the wine, you want to separate that sediment from the
wine as well as is possible, with either your cautious pouring, or decanting.
Turning the bottles stirs up the deposit(s) and, at best, forces it to filter
back through the wine to attain the lowest level in the bottle. I like to
leave the bottles in position in the cellar, and even when I move them about
(as little as is possible to accommodate new wines, and help with my
cataloging) keep the lable at the top, rather like the whitewash mark on Port
bottles. I will then stand the bottle in the cellar for many hours (days?),
before I pour it, to allow much of this sediment to slide down the bottle to
the bottom. Now, inspecting the capsules is a good thing, for, as you found
out, corks can and do leak.

Hope this concept of keeping the bottles in one orientation for their cellar
experience doesn't lead to a flame-war, but so be it.

In a similar thread, "Wine Gone Bad?" or similar, I recounted my encounter
with a 1955 Taylor Port with a bad cork, and the surprising results. I STILL
have not actually tasted a '55 Taylor Vintage! :-{

Hunt

One last thing: Julia Child said that one shouldn't cook with a wine
they wouldn't drink. I mean, let's say you have a really corked bottle
of wine...would you want your food to taste corked? I've never actually
tried it, so I don't know if the wet cardboard flavor passes along-
anyone? I know it can be heartbreaking to just toss an entire bottle
of wine away, but sometimes it's for the best. And I am in no way
guarding against bacteria here. Just a taste thing.
e.

One last thing: Julia Child said that one shouldn't cook with a wine
they wouldn't drink. I mean, let's say you have a really corked bottle
of wine...would you want your food to taste corked? I've never actually
tried it, so I don't know if the wet cardboard flavor passes along-
anyone? I know it can be heartbreaking to just toss an entire bottle
of wine away, but sometimes it's for the best. And I am in no way
guarding against bacteria here. Just a taste thing.
e.

"Eddie" > skrev i melding
...
> Hi folks. I'm a newbie, just joined after posting a wine related
> thread in a binary food group. Never though about looking for a wine
> group.
> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
> bottle that had leaked. I knew it was bad when I pulled out the cork
> (it came out way too easy) and took a small sip.
Turning bottles?
What for?
Well, if that is important to you, then go on - but that certainly is not
important for the bottles... They are better off undisturbed.
Anders

"Eddie" > skrev i melding
...
> Hi folks. I'm a newbie, just joined after posting a wine related
> thread in a binary food group. Never though about looking for a wine
> group.
> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
> bottle that had leaked. I knew it was bad when I pulled out the cork
> (it came out way too easy) and took a small sip.
Turning bottles?
What for?
Well, if that is important to you, then go on - but that certainly is not
important for the bottles... They are better off undisturbed.
Anders

Emily,

As to not cooking with a corked wine, see this link:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X51A25D2A

I don't always do it, I throw away my share of corked wine, but I do
occasionally use; I find that to date I haven't run across corked
odors. Now, I don't use corked wines say in a stew where it's added
partway thru a simmer. But in reduced sauces at high temps (or Sue's
recipe I reference in that thread) I haven't detected TCA yet.

Any time we happen to have any wine left (usually not on purpose) we
set it aside for cooking. We will also cook with a wine that's not
quite right when the bottle is opened. We feel that our food has been
given the sort of flavor we intended and have never felt the taste of
the food spoiled by day old or even weeks old wine.

"Eddie" > wrote in message
...

snipped

> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
> bottle that had leaked.
snipped
> Eddie in San Jose

Eddie, why are you turning your bottles? This is the second time in a week I
have read of someone doing this. All you are doing is stirring up sediment
in the bottle. Bottles do not need turning.

Ron Lel

"Ron Lel" > wrote in
:

>
> "Eddie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> snipped
>
>> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed
>> a bottle that had leaked.
> snipped
>> Eddie in San Jose
>
> Eddie, why are you turning your bottles? This is the second time in a
> week I have read of someone doing this. All you are doing is stirring
> up sediment in the bottle. Bottles do not need turning.
>
> Ron Lel
>
>
>

Another thing that this thread has brought to mind, I have had bottles with
obvious leakage through the cork which were unscathed (or at least not
appearantly) and delicious. Other storage factors and degree of leakage,
age of wine etc. FWIW the ones that I have had that worked were relatively
young and probably lost wine due to some heat problems leading to premature
maturity (if that is even possible!)

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> In the normal way of things, therefore, a small leakage is
> normal and could be argued to be desirable (this touches on a
> "hot potato" relative to aging wines under screwcaps) as it
> could help to power the maturation of the wine.

For those with a strong need to read about this issue, there is a
recent, long and controversial thread on the Parker forum:

<http://fora.erobertparker.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/46710.html>

or

<http://snipurl.com/btw5>

I'd highly recommend reading, of course, since I am an irrelevant
contributor.

M.

"Eddie" > wrote in message
...
> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
> bottle that had leaked.

I'm surprised that Michael didn't comment on the issue of "turning" bottles.
There is absolutely _no_ reason to turn bottles during aging. Simply leave
them on their sides with the label up and resist the compulsion to fondle
them needlessly. When you plan to serve the wine you should probably decant
it or serve it from a bottle cradle if it has thrown any sediment.

Tom S

Now, cooking with good wine that is a few days old is another thing
entirely. I do that quite often (ok, not really often. we don't often
not finish a bottle!) I had heard about someone who poured all the
great last bits of wine into a big vinegar jug, creating the finest red
wine vinegar in town. Don't know if that's urban legend, though.

Salut/Hi ,

le/on 6 Jan 2005 21:17:01 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>Now, cooking with good wine that is a few days old is another thing
>entirely. I do that quite often (ok, not really often. we don't often
>not finish a bottle!) I had heard about someone who poured all the
>great last bits of wine into a big vinegar jug, creating the finest red
>wine vinegar in town.

I've been doing that for several years - 8 at least. Modesty (ahem) ands
lack of comprehensive comparison (plus I don't much like the taste of
vinegar) forbids me from claiming that it's the _best_ in town, though with
only 300 on the electoral roll, that's certainly possible.

> Don't know if that's urban legend, though.

Certainly not legend that you can make good vinegar from the dregs of good
wine.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:06:08 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>
>"Eddie" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
>> bottle that had leaked.
>
>I'm surprised that Michael didn't comment on the issue of "turning" bottles.
>There is absolutely _no_ reason to turn bottles during aging. Simply leave
>them on their sides with the label up and resist the compulsion to fondle
>them needlessly. When you plan to serve the wine you should probably decant
>it or serve it from a bottle cradle if it has thrown any sediment.

Don't be such a spoil sport, Tom, half the pleasure in having them is to
give them a good fondle from time to time. All the true wine lovers I've
known have this need to go down into the cellar, and stroke the current
favourite lovingly from time to time - without turning it of course.



--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

Thanks very much for the headsup

le/on 7 Jan 2005 01:03:16 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>> In the normal way of things, therefore, a small leakage is
>> normal and could be argued to be desirable (this touches on a
>> "hot potato" relative to aging wines under screwcaps) as it
>> could help to power the maturation of the wine.
>
>For those with a strong need to read about this issue, there is a
>recent, long and controversial thread on the Parker forum:
>
><http://fora.erobertparker.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/46710.html>
>
>or
>
><http://snipurl.com/btw5>
>
>I'd highly recommend reading, of course, since I am an irrelevant
>contributor.

I'm not sure what this last sentence is about, as I didn't see a
contribution from you in that thread, relevant or otherwise.

It was a very interesting thread, and there are two things I took from it.

1. That even under screwcaps there is a small but measurable oxygen ingress.
and
2. That more people than I expected were in favour of screwcaps.

What the study lacked, IMO was any information about the temperature
stability or otherwise of the stored bottles whose performance was being
measured. I am quite certain that this is of crucial importance, especially
in the case of corks.

I'm tempted to join, if only to make that point!

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 03:29:10 +0100, Ian Hoare > said:

] Salut/Hi Tom S,
]
] le/on Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:06:08 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
]
] >
] >"Eddie" > wrote in message
] .. .
] >> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
] >> bottle that had leaked.
] >
] >I'm surprised that Michael didn't comment on the issue of "turning" bottles.
] >There is absolutely _no_ reason to turn bottles during aging. Simply leave
] >them on their sides with the label up and resist the compulsion to fondle
] >them needlessly. When you plan to serve the wine you should probably decant
] >it or serve it from a bottle cradle if it has thrown any sediment.
]
] Don't be such a spoil sport, Tom, half the pleasure in having them is to
] give them a good fondle from time to time. All the true wine lovers I've
] known have this need to go down into the cellar, and stroke the current
] favourite lovingly from time to time - without turning it of course.
]

Hi Ian, Tom -

You guys are waaay too sure of yourselves. Fondling aside -- and I think it
would be more appropriate if you kept these habits to yourself in future,
Ian; no one needs to know about yer fondling yer favorite! -- there
_may_ be a reason to turn the bottles...

Here's the thing. The cellar here in Normandy has a cieling of wooden lattes
and mud, which supports some tonnes of grain, before a porous -- well, rotten --
wood layer and old hay above. All this provides dreamy insulation, but at
the cost of a slow but constant rain of mud, mouse droppings and grain bits
finely milled into a sticky red powder. So much for keeping the labels up.
Within a few months you'd never know what you were drinking.

But labels down is a problem too. In all but the highest summer the cave has
a humidity that -- well, I never measured it so I don't know exactly how high it is,
but say 90% -- causes streams of water to run off the bottles. And the red gunk,
as it happens, is a powerful glue solvent. (I've often thought of bottling it for
those folks endlessly trying to soak labels off). The net result: within a few
months you'd never know what you were drinking.

And the solution is... you guessed it!

[Before the samaritans chime in here, I don't really turn bottles. Once in a while
I fondle them, in the process rubbing off most of the gunk, but mostly they
just get grubbier and grubbier. Which actually impresses some people! ]

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

In article >, ianhoare@angelfire.
com says...
>
>Salut/Hi Tom S,
>
> le/on Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:06:08 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>
>>"Eddie" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> Here's my story. While turning my bottles the other night I noticed a
>>> bottle that had leaked.
>>
>>I'm surprised that Michael didn't comment on the issue of "turning" bottles.
>>There is absolutely _no_ reason to turn bottles during aging. Simply leave
>>them on their sides with the label up and resist the compulsion to fondle
>>them needlessly. When you plan to serve the wine you should probably decant
>>it or serve it from a bottle cradle if it has thrown any sediment.
>
>Don't be such a spoil sport, Tom, half the pleasure in having them is to
>give them a good fondle from time to time. All the true wine lovers I've
>known have this need to go down into the cellar, and stroke the current
>favourite lovingly from time to time - without turning it of course.
>
>
>
>--
>All the Best
>Ian Hoare

Right you are, Ian. When the temp hits 115 F on my lower patio, I retreat to
the cellar and check my bottle taqs for penmanship, spelling errors, etc. I
limit myself to just fondling the capsules and the neck tags though. After a
few hours at 55 F, I find the heat almost refreshing... well, I did say
ALMOST, didn't I? :-)

Hunt

In article >, notareal@address.
com says...
[SNIP]
>
>Hi Ian, Tom -
>
>You guys are waaay too sure of yourselves. Fondling aside -- and I think it
>would be more appropriate if you kept these habits to yourself in future,
>Ian; no one needs to know about yer fondling yer favorite! -- there
>_may_ be a reason to turn the bottles...
>
>Here's the thing. The cellar here in Normandy has a cieling of wooden lattes
>and mud, which supports some tonnes of grain, before a porous -- well, rotten
--
>wood layer and old hay above. All this provides dreamy insulation, but at
>the cost of a slow but constant rain of mud, mouse droppings and grain bits
>finely milled into a sticky red powder. So much for keeping the labels up.
>Within a few months you'd never know what you were drinking.
>
>But labels down is a problem too. In all but the highest summer the cave has
>a humidity that -- well, I never measured it so I don't know exactly how high
it
> is,
>but say 90% -- causes streams of water to run off the bottles. And the red
gunk
>,
>as it happens, is a powerful glue solvent. (I've often thought of bottling
it f
>or
>those folks endlessly trying to soak labels off). The net result: within a
few
>
>months you'd never know what you were drinking.
>
>And the solution is... you guessed it!
>
>[Before the samaritans chime in here, I don't really turn bottles. Once in a
wh
>ile
>I fondle them, in the process rubbing off most of the gunk, but mostly they
>just get grubbier and grubbier. Which actually impresses some people! ]
>
>-E
>--
>Emery Davis

This might be a wonderful time to use cellar-tracking software and carefully
log the exact location by bin/row/column. "Hey, hon, if this is bin AA-24, we
must be drinking the '65 Ch Latour!" <G>

Hunt

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> For those with a strong need to read about this issue, there is
>> a recent, long and controversial thread on the Parker forum:
>>
>> <http://snipurl.com/btw5>
>>
>> I'd highly recommend reading, of course, since I am an
>> irrelevant contributor.

> I'm not sure what this last sentence is about, as I didn't see a
> contribution from you in that thread, relevant or otherwise.

In this thread that has grown to 14 pages in the meanwhile (if
your setting of page length is equivalent to mine), my posts are
numbers 163, 192, 195, 202, 208, 210, and 381. I guess yopu
overlooked them. Here are direct links:

The first: <http://snipurl.com/bwrj>
The second: <http://snipurl.com/bwro> (the following four easily
to be found, coming quite close)
The last: <http://snipurl.com/bwrw>

> It was a very interesting thread, and there are two things I
> took from it.
>
> 1. That even under screwcaps there is a small but measurable
> oxygen ingress. and 2. That more people than I expected were in
> favour of screwcaps.
>
> What the study lacked, IMO was any information about the
> temperature stability or otherwise of the stored bottles whose
> performance was being measured. I am quite certain that this is
> of crucial importance, especially in the case of corks.

All I can say is that bottles with normal (= rather high) original
fill under corks start to leak in the 30 to 35°C band, while screw
caps remain tight until well over 40°C. (I don't know, however, if
that was your question).

Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the wines).

> I'm tempted to join, if only to make that point!

Good idea!

M.

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> For those with a strong need to read about this issue, there is
>> a recent, long and controversial thread on the Parker forum:
>>
>> <http://snipurl.com/btw5>
>>
>> I'd highly recommend reading, of course, since I am an
>> irrelevant contributor.

> I'm not sure what this last sentence is about, as I didn't see a
> contribution from you in that thread, relevant or otherwise.

In this thread that has grown to 14 pages in the meanwhile (if
your setting of page length is equivalent to mine), my posts are
numbers 163, 192, 195, 202, 208, 210, and 381. I guess yopu
overlooked them. Here are direct links:

The first: <http://snipurl.com/bwrj>
The second: <http://snipurl.com/bwro> (the following four easily
to be found, coming quite close)
The last: <http://snipurl.com/bwrw>

> It was a very interesting thread, and there are two things I
> took from it.
>
> 1. That even under screwcaps there is a small but measurable
> oxygen ingress. and 2. That more people than I expected were in
> favour of screwcaps.
>
> What the study lacked, IMO was any information about the
> temperature stability or otherwise of the stored bottles whose
> performance was being measured. I am quite certain that this is
> of crucial importance, especially in the case of corks.

All I can say is that bottles with normal (= rather high) original
fill under corks start to leak in the 30 to 35°C band, while screw
caps remain tight until well over 40°C. (I don't know, however, if
that was your question).

Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the wines).

> I'm tempted to join, if only to make that point!

Good idea!

M.

Michael Pronay > wrote:

> Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
> 81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
> not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
> percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
> a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the
> wines).

Once again: About half of the wines with problems had definitely
signs of TCA, while the other half simply were "off", where we
opened the second bottle just to be sure. In three cases the
second bottle tasted discernibly different without one being able
to say one bottle being better than the other: The cases of fruit
scalping (first bottle) vs. random oxidation (the second bottle) -
both being cork taints.

M.

Michael Pronay > wrote:

> Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
> 81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
> not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
> percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
> a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the
> wines).

Once again: About half of the wines with problems had definitely
signs of TCA, while the other half simply were "off", where we
opened the second bottle just to be sure. In three cases the
second bottle tasted discernibly different without one being able
to say one bottle being better than the other: The cases of fruit
scalping (first bottle) vs. random oxidation (the second bottle) -
both being cork taints.

M.

On 8 Jan 2005 16:25:37 GMT, (Hunt) said:

[]
] This might be a wonderful time to use cellar-tracking software and carefully
] log the exact location by bin/row/column. "Hey, hon, if this is bin AA-24, we
] must be drinking the '65 Ch Latour!" <G>

I guess that's one way to beat palate fatigue...

Seriously Hunt, I am not nearly organized enough to do that. I only even
keep track of inventory every few years. And even that's just to keep things
from getting too out of hand.

I just saw a news story on a new flat screen (touch I assume) cellar "manager"
machine and SW, for about $6K US, IIRC. Bar code reader included. I'd love
to see what my red gunk would do to that baby! (I hate spending money on
gadgets that could go after good juice. )

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On 8 Jan 2005 16:25:37 GMT, (Hunt) said:

[]
] This might be a wonderful time to use cellar-tracking software and carefully
] log the exact location by bin/row/column. "Hey, hon, if this is bin AA-24, we
] must be drinking the '65 Ch Latour!" <G>

I guess that's one way to beat palate fatigue...

Seriously Hunt, I am not nearly organized enough to do that. I only even
keep track of inventory every few years. And even that's just to keep things
from getting too out of hand.

I just saw a news story on a new flat screen (touch I assume) cellar "manager"
machine and SW, for about $6K US, IIRC. Bar code reader included. I'd love
to see what my red gunk would do to that baby! (I hate spending money on
gadgets that could go after good juice. )

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On 10 Jan 2005 19:37:55 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
>81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
>not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
>percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
>a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the wines).

Clearly that paragraph describes the magnitude of the problem. No
industry can tolerate a failure rate of 30% for what is deemed a
"premium" product. If the consumer applies those odds to the purchase,
the probable expenditure of $xxx-hundred dollars on fine Bordeaux
becomes an unacceptable risk.

But, broadening the discussion a bit, in your opinion is this related
to wine industry failure, cork industry failure, increased
awareness/reporting or what?/



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

On 10 Jan 2005 19:37:55 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Btw, we had an extensive Bordeaux 1995 tasting today: 6 whites,
>81 reds. The cork failure rate was ab absolute disaster. I have
>not done the exact calculus yet, but it seems that well over 30
>percent of the bottles were affected, in most cases confirmed by
>a backup bottle (we had second bottles for some 60 of the wines).

Clearly that paragraph describes the magnitude of the problem. No
industry can tolerate a failure rate of 30% for what is deemed a
"premium" product. If the consumer applies those odds to the purchase,
the probable expenditure of $xxx-hundred dollars on fine Bordeaux
becomes an unacceptable risk.

But, broadening the discussion a bit, in your opinion is this related
to wine industry failure, cork industry failure, increased
awareness/reporting or what?/



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org