Last night, I met a friend for dinner at the restaurant Manresa in Los
Gatos, CA. The restaurant and its chef, David Kinch, have recently
received quite a bit of positive press in the NY Times magazine, Gourmet
magazine and -- most recently -- it was cited as #38 on a list of the
"Top 50 Restaurants in the World," as compiled by London's Restaurant
Magazine. The emphasis at Manresa is on the creative use of locally
procured ingredients. Although Mr. Kinch was absent from the kitchen
last night (he's in London this week), the kitchen was ably run by his
long-time sous-chef Jeremy. Both of us opted for the tasting menu,
which we left up to the chef (as in Japanese omakase).

Here is what we ate, and the wines that we had with it:

amuse bouches:
red pepper and black olive "petits fours"

This gives me a picture of what the chef is doing. Here he subverts the
standard idea of petit fours by swapping savory for sweet flavors.
It's an intellectually stimulating way to start the meal.

Mexican lime and hibiscus "cocktail"

Yes, hibiscus! This consisted of a lime granita with a small infusion
of tequila, atop of which was a red hibiscus jelly (for lack of a more
descriptive term). The combination was very refreshing and stimulating
to the palate.

Parmesan churros

Mashed potato and parmesan shaped into logs and deep fried. Nice finger
food.

Strawberry gazpacho

This is apparently one of the signature dishes of Manresa, and it was a
standout. The strawberry was present in small quantity, just enough in
fact to "brighten" the tomato in the gazpacho, which also was seasoned
with chives and lime.

Salt cod bunyols, honey and sherry

Frankly, I don't remember much about this dish -- I must have been
distracted.

The "infamous egg"

[The name derives from some flak the chef took from some foodies online
regarding whether he'd properly attributed this dish to L'Arpege
restaurant, where it originated]

A soft-boiled egg is opened up and, on top of the egg is placed some
whipped cream and maple syrup. I know that it sounds bizarre, but it
works and is a fascinating combination of flavors, not at all bizarre in
taste. This BTW is another signature dish of Manresa.

With all of the above, we had a bottle of Pierre Peters Cuvée de Reserve
Blanc de Blancs Brut Le Mesnil Champagne. I didn't know this producer,
but it came recommended by the staff and was very good: not much toast,
citrus and green apple with a very pronounced mousse. It reminded me
quite a bit of the few Champagnes of Egly-Ouriet that I've had.

This was followed by:

"Twice cooked" foie gras with delta asparagus

A very thin slice of foie gras (the twice cooked bit I don't quite get)
with lots of black pepper was draped over an asparagus tip. Very
enjoyable combination.

Japanese fluke, sashimi-style, with olive oil and chives

I don't remember much about this dish, either, probably because it was
eclipsed by what followed.

"Just shucked" scallops with oceanic gelée

This was another standout dish. The scallops were either raw or very
lightly cooked, minced and reassembled into a football shape.
Surrounding it was the gelée, which had a salty/citrusy character. The
scallops were delicious on their own, but the gelée did add to the
overall flavor as well. Totally delicious

Artichoke soup with chickpea frites and manchego

This was essentially a reworked version of French onion soup, with the
chickpea frites standing in for the bread and the shaved Manchego
replacing the Gruyére. The thick asparagus soup was poured over the
solid ingredients, which slowly softened. The soup was rich and
wonderful, and the solids provided interesting surprises when encountered.

Skate wing with morels, fava bean pesto

To me, this could have been a Charlie Trotter dish. All the ingredients
were carefully showcased, and the combination of flavors provided the
interest. The skate wing had been grilled and combined beautifully with
the small, soft morels. The fava bean "pesto" tasted fresh, in contrast
to the other flavors.

Rouget and clams a la plancha, sweet and sour sauce

Manresa's custom-designed kitchen includes a griddle-like plancha for
searing fish on. In this dish, small squares of rouget (what's the
English name for rouget?) were seared on the plancha and served with a
very subtle "sweet and sour" sauce. I don't honestly remember the clams.

These dishes were eaten with two wines that I'd brought along:

2002 Roland Lavantureux Chablis

Initially a bit reticent, this opened up after 30 minutes to reveal the
character that I remembered: good minerality, lemony citrus and green
apples. As time wore on, the minerality became more pronounced.

2003 Manfred Felsner Grüner Veltliner Moosburgerin Kremstal

A lighter-styled GV, but one that still has great substance to it and no
signs of flabbiness from the hot vintage of 2003. It showed typical
pepper and floral notes with citrus and some kind of melon on the palate
and a nice, crisp finish. Not the biggest GV, but good varietal
character and a nice complement to many of the fish dishes we had.

Then, the final round of savory dishes:

Local abalone with slow-cooked veal cheeks

For me, this was the highlight of the dinner (and another signature
dish!) The square of pan-fried abalone alone would qualify as a treat
but, placed atop a small pile of braised veal cheeks, it was taken to a
new level. Both components were excellent in their own right, but
eating them together proved to be a revelatory experience. Surf and
turf reinvented.

Milk fed Pennsylvania pouillard stuffed with porcini mushrooms

This was a delicious dish, reminding me quite a bit of dishes I'd had in
France. Coming immediately after the previous dish, it suffered a bit
in comparison.

Season's last choucroute with suckling pig and boudin noir

Two different parts of the pig found their into the choucroute, and the
house-made boudin noir sausage was tremendous. The sauerkraut was
somewhat subdued, giving this choucroute a bit of refinement.

Baby spring lamb and merguez, goats' milk whey polenta

I mostly remember the house-made merguez sausage, which was garlicky and
good. The creamy polenta also provided a great backdrop to the meats.

With these dishes, it was deemed prudent to get a red wine, so we opted
to get by the glass:

Robert Sinskey 2001 Los Carneros Pinot Noir

A very decent Pinot from one of my favorite producers of Carneros PN.
Soft, lush, with clear varietal fruit and a hint of smoke. It was very
good with the veal and choucroute, but a bit overwhelmed by the lamb.

The desserts:

Green apple and rhubarb sorbet

Of the two, the rhubarb was startlingly good.

Pineapple beignets with passion fruit

Delicious combination of the cooked pineapple and the passion fruit.

Strawberry soufflé with kaffir lime ice cream

The soufflé itself was great, but the combination with the lime flavor
proved fasinating, even at this late stage of the meal.

Chocolate marquis and devil's food cake
Petits fours "white peach-chocolate"

By this time, I'd basically had enough, so didn't really sample these
last two desserts well enough to have much to say about them.

The meal lasted just over four hours, though at no point did I feel
either rushed or impatient for the next course. One point worth making
here is that, although there were 21 different plates presented to us,
the portions were quite small so that, even by the end of the meal I was
not overly full. Instead, the cumulative impact of all the different
flavors was almost kaleidoscopic. The overall impression of the cooking
was certainly the creative use of high quality, fresh ingredients;
beyond that, however, was the desire to create (what for me is) a new
synthesis. This is not "fusion" cooking in the hackneyed sense, but
rather a coming together of several different traditions with this ethos
of highlighting the ingredients themselves. At the same time, I never
felt that the combinations were forced or that the chef was trying to do
too much in a given dish. Each dish had its own distinct character,
and it was the sucession of dishes of differing character that provided
a lot of the excitement.

All in all, a most memorable meal, conceived of by a rising superstar of
a chef. The wines, while good, were in the end overshadowed by the
cooking, but the cooking was what I was there to experience after all...

One final thought: with the growing popularity of chef's tasting menus
such as this one, it's becoming increasingly difficult to select a
single bottle of wine that will go with a meal. Restaurants such as
this will usually have a selected list of wines by the glass to
accompany the tasting menu, but at times patrons will not want to
partake of those wines. In such cases, restaurants will need to
increase their supplies of half bottles to provide greater flexibility
to their patrons in choosing wines to go with the food.

Mark Lipton

Mike Tommasi wrote: <--- What are you doing up at this hour, Mike??

> Wow, sounds fantastic Mark

Yes, it was.

> I believe Kinch is a catalunya-phile, from the name of the restaurant
> to the bunyols...

He worked at Akelare in San Sebastian, and claims Catalyunian influences
in his cooking (according to the restaurant's website). There's a
double meaning at work, though, because Kinch is also a surfer and there
just happens to be a beach no more then 50-60 km from the restaurant
named... Manresa! Cute, huh?

>>"Twice cooked" foie gras with delta asparagus
>>
>>A very thin slice of foie gras (the twice cooked bit I don't quite get)
>>with lots of black pepper was draped over an asparagus tip. Very
>>enjoyable combination.
>
>
> Probably means that the FG was first marinated in salt, then lightly
> pan-fried?

Yes, that's very likely. The FG did taste salted.


>
> 21 dishes, reminds me of El Bulli, but without the excessive gimmickry
> that made that experience so disappointing. Gadgets for gadget's sake.

No, no gadgetry in evidence -- just solid, if eclectic, cooking.


> This is something that El Bulli missed, the ingredients were not
> highlighted at all, I would have expected vegetables and meats from
> specific terroirs, here they were merely a suport for the chef's
> craft, that left the ingredients almost unrecognizable. A travesty.
> When are we going to Manresa?

If you can make it over in the next 3 weeks, I'll make time for you.
After that, it's back to the hinterlands for me...


> Sounds great, finding the right dynamic, this is important in a meal.
> Again going back to EB, we found the sequence of 21 to be almost
> random, no crescendos, and some truly dull desserts. Not to speak of
> the 5 emetic dishes thrown in (yes, Cathy felt like puking at least 3
> of them).

Eek!! I've got to say, from all that I've heard of El Bulli here, that
I have no desire whatsoever to go there. (Now about The Fat Duck... :P)

> This was also our problem at EB, it is impossible to match wines.
> Consolation, the wine list was truly fantastic and the prices of the
> bottles were very reasonable (Grange des Peres white at 60€ is barely
> a 50% margin, think of France where wines are served at 4x the buying
> price).

Well, Mike, what wine goes with nitrogen-filled balloons anyway? ;-)


> We thought that the granularity of the drinks should have matched the
> food, not half bottles or even glasses (can you drink 21 glasses of
> wine and drive home?), but a rack of test tubes. I should patent that
> concept, before EB steals it from me ;-)

LOL!!
>
>
> Great notes Mark, I feel full now...

Me too -- and it's a day later!

Mark Lipton

Thanks for report. I quite enjoyed Kinch's cooking when he visited the
James Beard House.

The Pierre Peters BdB is probably my current favorite NV Champagne
(Ian, this is the one I served at dinner at my place). Very good stuff.

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:15:13 -0700, tu disais/you said:-


>received quite a bit of positive press in the NY Times magazine, Gourmet
>magazine and -- most recently -- it was cited as #38 on a list of the
>"Top 50 Restaurants in the World," as compiled by London's Restaurant
>Magazine.

Would this be an appropriate moment to point out that in that list, with 4
out of the top 10 and 14 out of the top 50, Britain beat both France and the
USA for top restaurants, especially as the #1 spot has gone to "The Fat
Duck" at Bray.

One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

> Would this be an appropriate moment to point out that in that list, with 4
> out of the top 10 and 14 out of the top 50, Britain beat both France and the
> USA for top restaurants, especially as the #1 spot has gone to "The Fat
> Duck" at Bray.
>
> One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.
>

Of course, that the publication doing the ranking is UK-based will be
used to undermine such observations by the less-charitably minded among
us (heaven forefend! not by me). I do find it disturbing that the list
manages to almost completely overlook the restaurants of East Asia
(e.g.), but then again how seriously should we ever take such a list as
this? It's just one step from that to the WS's annual "Top 100," about
which we all have weighed in at one time or another.

It would have been interesting had you visited Manresa after your meal
at the FL. I am reasonably sure that you would prefer the FL, but it's
a question of two radically different approaches to fine dining by two
extremely gifted chefs. Oh, well...

Mark Lipton

In article >,
Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
[snip!]
>
>One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.


Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?


Dimitri

In article >,
Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
[snip!]
>
>One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.


Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?


Dimitri

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.

There's nothing wrong with food in the UK as long as it's from an Asian
restaurant. ;^)

S moT

Ian,

I haven't eaten in London, so can't comment on restaurants. Certainly
London has gained a rep as a hot spot for chefs since mid-90s.
But......this list is ludicrous.So there are 14 UK restaurants better
than anything in Tokyo?
Beyond obvious UK bias, let's look at NYC. WD-50 but no Le Bernadin?
You have got to be #$%@ing kidding. Gramercy Tavern is the most
dependable dining experience in NYC, but 15th best in the world? Masa
has no track record- what % of voters do you think have actually eaten
there?
This list reads like a list of most press citations, not best
restaurants.

This doesn't detract from British dining- from what I've read, Fat Duck
is extraordinary. But this list really proves nothing.

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i melding
...
> On 23 Apr 2005 05:52:47 -0700, "DaleW" > wrote:
>
Professionals here in Oslo have been ridiculing this British list, I read
only today.
Oslo has got no restaurants in it - but does own a number of Bocuse d'Or
winners...
Anders

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i melding
...
> On 23 Apr 2005 05:52:47 -0700, "DaleW" > wrote:
>
Professionals here in Oslo have been ridiculing this British list, I read
only today.
Oslo has got no restaurants in it - but does own a number of Bocuse d'Or
winners...
Anders

Sounds like the list emulates Marvin Shanken's Wine Spectator Great
Restaurant List in that it parrots the usual suspects as hyped in culinary
magazines.

--
Joseph B. Rosenberg
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:13:06 GMT, "Anders Tørneskog"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i melding
> .. .
> >> On 23 Apr 2005 05:52:47 -0700, "DaleW" > wrote:
> >>
> >Professionals here in Oslo have been ridiculing this British list, I read
> >only today.
> >Oslo has got no restaurants in it - but does own a number of Bocuse d'Or
> >winners...
>
> It just seems that somebody sabotaged the list before publishing...
>
>
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:17:52 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare wrote:
>
>> Would this be an appropriate moment to point out that in that list, with 4
>> out of the top 10 and 14 out of the top 50, Britain beat both France and the
>> USA for top restaurants, especially as the #1 spot has gone to "The Fat
>> Duck" at Bray.
>>
>> One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.
>>
>
>Of course, that the publication doing the ranking is UK-based will be
>used to undermine such observations by the less-charitably minded among
>us (heaven forefend! not by me).

Fortunately for me, I'm already on record as saying the same thing a couple
of days ago!

> I do find it disturbing that the list manages to almost completely overlook the restaurants of East Asia

So do I. In fact I've long felt that there's a franco-centred arrogance
amongst those journalistsa who pronounce on excellence.

>It would have been interesting had you visited Manresa after your meal
>at the FL.

It would indeed. However there's a limit to what this mere human belly - and
purse can withstand!

That said, I have as little desire to visit the Fat Duck as El Bulli, from
what I've seen of both.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,

le/on Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:28:04 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you said:-

>In article >,
>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>
>[snip!]
>>
>>One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.
>
>
>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?

You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
restaurants are from all nationalities except british?

A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

With all due respect, this restaurant list sounds like a bit of a joke. From
an Australian point of view, it lists Perry's "Rockpool" as the best
Australian restaurant - it isn't by a LONG way; there are a number better in
Melbourne and Sydney.

Ron Lel

Sorry, that should read one of the best in Australia - as I said , it isn't.

"Ron Lel" > wrote in message
...
> With all due respect, this restaurant list sounds like a bit of a joke.
> From an Australian point of view, it lists Perry's "Rockpool" as the best
> Australian restaurant - it isn't by a LONG way; there are a number better
> in Melbourne and Sydney.
>
> Ron Lel
>

In article >,
Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>
>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?
>
>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
>restaurants are from all nationalities except british?


I am. I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.


>A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts.


What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
recognizing good food when they see it, though.


Dimitri

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:45:38 +0200, Mike Tommasi > said:

] On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC),
] (D. Gerasimatos) wrote:
]
] >In article >,
] >Ian Hoare > wrote:
] >>>
] >>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?
] >>
] >>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
] >>restaurants are from all nationalities except british?
] >
] >
] >I am. I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.
] >
] >
] >>A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts.
] >
] >
] >What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
] >"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
] >recognizing good food when they see it, though.
]
] Hi
]
] quiche lorraine qualifies as good food, but "Croque Monsieur"? This is
] France's attempt to invent its own fast food, and coming up with
] something even fouler, greasier and less appealing than the real
] thing... created by some agroindustrial committee somewhere, it is
] served almost exclusively at cheap counters at train stations, or
] rather was, it has thankfully almost disappeared.
]

LOL! Do you really know the history of the croque monsieur, or are
you making that up?

Typically pretty foul I'll allow -- I kind of shudder when I hear someone
ordering one -- but I know a few places in Paris that do them on Poilaine
with good ham and cheese, served with a green salad. Not bad bar food
if you stumble across a good one.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Ian Hoare stated in part: That said, I have as little desire to visit
the Fat Duck as El Bulli, from what I've seen of both."

I don't think I would go out of my way to eat at El Bulli either. I just
read an article in the May 2005 issue of Smithsonian titled "Homage To
The Anchovy Coast." There is a picture of grilled watermellon topped
with anchovies. The text says: "standard fare for superstar chef Ferran
Adria, who's likely to serve an anchovy gelato for dessert". Adria is
the El Bulli chef. Everyone to their own taste, but to me such
combinations are as strange as chocolate syrup served on a steak as
sauce.

I wonder if any of the new generation of superstar chefs have enough
skill to duplicate the classic dishes from the time of Escoffier
including the classic sauces. It seems to me that the quality of chefs
and restaurants has been going down nearly everywhere since the early
1900s. There are a few exceptions. Demel in Vienna probably is turning
out baked goods just about as they were 100 years ago. Fortunately, with
2 day air express, you can now sample many of their products nearly
anywhere in the world.

Reply to .

Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,

le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you said:-

>In article >,
>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>>
>>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?
>>
>>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
>>restaurants are from all nationalities except british?

>I am.

Then you're wrong.

> I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.

Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK, certainly. Not that
that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of British food OR
English wine.


>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>recognizing good food when they see it, though.

That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.

In fact it is extremely hard to say where one cuisine starts and another
ends.

Creme Brûlée, is commonly believed to be French in fact its first recorded
appearance is in Cambridge in the UK.

Equally, good old American Pizza, Apple Pie, Chowder and Meatloaf owe their
origins to 4 different European countries, although they've all been adopted
by the USA (some might say perverted) and most USAians would say they are
American dishes.

By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
in fact.

I'd never claim that English cuisine is one of the world's top cuisines,
though I would put in on a par with or ahead of several other European
countries. What would be interesting, IMO would be to discuss at what point
a dish becomes legitmately part of a nation's cuisine. For example, "Spag
Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
dishes that are becoming fast favourites.

What I found quite interesting the other day was that the BBC carried out a
survey of the nation's favourite Sunday lunch. (As representative of a meal
that had slightly festive family meal connotations). Roast Beef and
Yorkshire pudding was the clear and unequivocal winner, and I'd certainly
agree that it is very much a defining dish of British cuisine. To the point
that the French equivalent of "Frogs" (Britspeak for French) is "Les
Rosbifs".

I call it a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).

To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should
ideally be slaughtered near the farm where it lived, to avoid stress
chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.

The meat should be quartered and then hung at least two weeks, though three
weeks would be better. It should then be butchered in such a way that the
cut to be roast should have both bone and its own covering fat. Sirloin and
Ribs are both classic roasting cuts, and they should both have meat that is
well marbled with fat, if the roast is to be excellent. It's no good
roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.

Real roasting is done on a spit in front of a bright open fire. I recommend
trying it at least once in your life, as it's an order better than the roast
we all know, which is actually baking. The meat should never be salted
before roasting as this has a tendancy to prevent the meat browning
properly. The meat should be allowed to warm to room temperature after being
seasoned (loads of pepper and dry mustard powder plus thyme).

The meat should be roast in an extremely hot oven (225 or so) for a short
time, from 20 mins to 40 mins per kg depending upon how it's liked, though
over cooked roast beef is an abomination. It is normal to roast beef very
rare at the centre, and carve the outside slices for those who prefer their
meat (over) cooked. After 10-15 mins in the oven, the meat can be removed
briefly, basted and then salted. Basting should be frequent - to imitate the
continual basting of the true rotating open fire spit roast.

English Roast Beef is traditionally served with roast potatoes, yorkshire
pudding, horseradish sauce, gravy and at least two other vegetables
depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.

In practice, in the majority of British domestic kitchens, the beef is too
young, factory farmed, underhung, and from an inappropriate (cheaper) cut.
The intrinsic quality that roasting brings out simply isn't there. I might
add, that this is also the case in France, where - so far - I've never found
a single example of roast beef half as good as that served even in the
current dumbed down domestic version.

The situation in the majority of small restaurants is considerably worse.
Most will give up when faced with the difficulty of producing a perfectly
roast cut, perfectly served at the moment the diners require it. They cook
it in advance and flash reheat it at the moment of service. The vegetables
equally will be reheated, and the essential accompanying gravy etc will
themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.

But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

Leaving roasting aside, although it IS the quntessentially british way of
cooking, especially of game birds, there are many other fine traditional
English dishes which stand comparison with anything from Europe.

Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)
Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies
Baked or boiled Gammon or bacon
Spiced beef (silverside)
Raised pies.
Pigeon pie
Venison casseroles
Jugged Hare.
Oxtail, tomato, peascot, jerusalem and broad bean soups. (and many others)
Finnan haddock, smoked salmon, kedgeree, fish pie. Kipper paste, potted
shrimps, crabs and salmon. Fresh scotch wild salmon poached in cider (US
hard cider).

Some of the world's finest cheeses come from the UK, think of a top class
Stilton or Cheddar (though there are many others).

And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
England's supremacy.

Apple pie, (and pear pie) Double crust fruit pies, cobblers, crumbles,
steamed and sponge puddings, custards, fools, syllabubs, trifles. There are
dozens of traditional british puddings that are a true delight when well
made.

The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
fine English cuisine, but to find it. Nearly all traditional English food is
extraordinarily badly adapted to serving in restaurants, and there are very
few restaurants indeed where it is done. What CAN be found, ever
increasingly, are examples of modern english fine cooking, where traditional
dishes or ingredients are recreated in a way that IS capable of being served
well in a modern restaurant. But these restaurants are extremely expensive,
on the whole. Nevertheless the cuisine exists, and competes on equal terms
with anything from anywhere else in the world.

I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:45:38 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
> said:
>
> ] quiche lorraine qualifies as good food, but "Croque Monsieur"? This is
> ] France's attempt to invent its own fast food, and coming up with
> ] something even fouler, greasier and less appealing than the real
> ] thing... created by some agroindustrial committee somewhere, it is
> ] served almost exclusively at cheap counters at train stations, or
> ] rather was, it has thankfully almost disappeared.
> ]
>
> LOL! Do you really know the history of the croque monsieur, or are
> you making that up?
>
> Typically pretty foul I'll allow -- I kind of shudder when I hear someone
> ordering one -- but I know a few places in Paris that do them on Poilaine
> with good ham and cheese, served with a green salad. Not bad bar food
> if you stumble across a good one.

I'll say! I had a really good croque monsieur & salad combo at a little
bistro on the river in Napa, California. Ian & Jacqui were over for the
Thanksgiving holiday, along with their friends from the East Coast, Carol &
Michael. We'd all just been to Saintsbury for a barrel tasting tour of
their Chardonnays and Pinot Noirs. I don't remember the name of the place,
but our food was all good and not horribly overpriced. My sandwich was made
from good ham and Gruyere cheese served generously in a nice crispy
sourdough bun slathered with good Dijon style mustard and mayonnaise. Yum!

Tom S

In article >,
Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>>
>>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>>recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>
>
>quiche lorraine qualifies as good food, but "Croque Monsieur"?


I think you missed the point here, which is that neither recipe is
British. How can a British cookbook include quiche lorraine?


Anyway, I am just teasing Ian about British food. It's not all bad. However, it
isn't really that exciting either featuring lots of stews and soups, pudding,
and sandwiches. Of course, the British eventually adopted the flavors of
India, France, Italy, Spain, and the Far East into their gourmet cooking,
but this these are not British inventions like 'fish and chips', 'mushy
peas', and 'steak and kidney pie'.


Dimitri

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

Ian offers an excellent treatise on the proper roasting of beef while
simultaneously stereotyping and occasionally bordering on offending
some of his American friends.

I've got to agree with the beef recommendations, including the ageing,
the processing tips, the "no salt while roasting" warning, the high
temp sealing and even the spit roasting--although a modern convection
oven could mitigate the advantage a bit.

But, then, having suffered in recent years from being denied the
opportunity to donate blood during local drives as a result of my
eight year tenure in Europe where I might have been exposed to British
beef, I've got to ask where else in the world but the US can one find
quality, flavorful, economical, and untainted beef so readily
available?

>Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK, certainly. Not that
>that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of British food OR
>English wine.

My exposure to English wine (is that an oxymoron or merely a
possessive phrase?) is so limited that I will refrain from gratuitous
nationalism regarding France, Italy, Germany, Australia or (dare I
mention?) the USA.

>>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>>recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>
>That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.

Does the criticism involve the crediting of the Brits or is the
identification of the QL and CM as British recipes? Grilled ham and
cheese seems a pretty generic dish to attribute to ANY national
cuisine.

>Equally, good old American Pizza, Apple Pie, Chowder and Meatloaf owe their
>origins to 4 different European countries, although they've all been adopted
>by the USA (some might say perverted) and most USAians would say they are
>American dishes.

Being a somewhat larger nation than Britain (although I heard in the
past that the sun never set on British soil...it seems to have shrunk
considerably in recent years), I can only note that most Americans
would identify pizza as Italian. Chowder is a distinctly regional dish
and seldom seen in most of the states except in cans. Fruit pie of any
can is multi-national and meatload is so generic as to defy
identification with a cuisine.

Now, to be technically correct, we could cite "chop suey" as an
American creation. But, I'd rather point to the cooking of the great
Southwest with its Mexican and Native American inspired dishes. Or,
the American South with things like Fried Chicken, cornbread,
hush-puppies, catfish, greens, rhubarb pie, pecan pie, etc.

There are other regional cuisines equally distinctive and while
restaurants seem to lack the quality of service of the finest Michelin
*** establishments, the level of the creativity of the top chefs is
very competitive.
>
>By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
>in fact.

Beyond the detailed discussion above and below regarding roast beef,
those best loved Brit recipes would be?
>
>I'd never claim that English cuisine is one of the world's top cuisines,
>though I would put in on a par with or ahead of several other European
>countries. What would be interesting, IMO would be to discuss at what point
>a dish becomes legitmately part of a nation's cuisine. For example, "Spag
>Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
>Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
>dishes that are becoming fast favourites.

And, let me note that Indian cuisine in major British cities is alone
worth the trip .
>
>I call it a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
>English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).
>
>To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
>on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
>animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
>Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should
>ideally be slaughtered near the farm where it lived, to avoid stress
>chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
>meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.

Nebraska in the US offers some excellent examples of grass fed beef in
a region with enough grass to pull it off properly.
>
>The meat should be quartered and then hung at least two weeks, though three
>weeks would be better. It should then be butchered in such a way that the
>cut to be roast should have both bone and its own covering fat. Sirloin and
>Ribs are both classic roasting cuts, and they should both have meat that is
>well marbled with fat, if the roast is to be excellent. It's no good
>roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
>Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
>that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.

Dunno where you draw the assumption that Americans would choose round
or blade or even chuck for preparation of a roast beef. The classic is
a standing rib roast and a "first cut" (about ribs 9-13) from prime
beef is the standard.
>
>Real roasting is done on a spit in front of a bright open fire. I recommend
>trying it at least once in your life, as it's an order better than the roast
>we all know, which is actually baking. The meat should never be salted
>before roasting as this has a tendancy to prevent the meat browning
>properly. The meat should be allowed to warm to room temperature after being
>seasoned (loads of pepper and dry mustard powder plus thyme).
>
>The meat should be roast in an extremely hot oven (225 or so) for a short
>time, from 20 mins to 40 mins per kg depending upon how it's liked, though
>over cooked roast beef is an abomination. It is normal to roast beef very
>rare at the centre, and carve the outside slices for those who prefer their
>meat (over) cooked. After 10-15 mins in the oven, the meat can be removed
>briefly, basted and then salted. Basting should be frequent - to imitate the
>continual basting of the true rotating open fire spit roast.
>
>English Roast Beef is traditionally served with roast potatoes, yorkshire
>pudding, horseradish sauce, gravy and at least two other vegetables
>depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
>from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
>Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
>isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.

Great English wines all. Ooopps.
>
>In practice, in the majority of British domestic kitchens, the beef is too
>young, factory farmed, underhung, and from an inappropriate (cheaper) cut.
>The intrinsic quality that roasting brings out simply isn't there. I might
>add, that this is also the case in France, where - so far - I've never found
>a single example of roast beef half as good as that served even in the
>current dumbed down domestic version.
>
>The situation in the majority of small restaurants is considerably worse.
>Most will give up when faced with the difficulty of producing a perfectly
>roast cut, perfectly served at the moment the diners require it. They cook
>it in advance and flash reheat it at the moment of service. The vegetables
>equally will be reheated, and the essential accompanying gravy etc will
>themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.

I think you've just stated the case against British cuisine quite
nicely.
>
>But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
>in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
>food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

Dunno what "restaurant chains" you were exposed to during your visits
to the States, but I haven't seen, nor would I expect to see, Chowder
in a sit-down chain in about 40 of the 50 States. In fact, the only
conditions under which I could envision a reasonable "chowder" would
be in New England (or alternatively the "Manhattan" version served
on-scene.) I suspect you could get a respectable chowder in the
Pacific NW coastal cities as well.
>
>Leaving roasting aside, although it IS the quntessentially british way of
>cooking, especially of game birds, there are many other fine traditional
>English dishes which stand comparison with anything from Europe.
>
>Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)

An acquired taste. Can be sublime. Usually a challenge to ingest.

>Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies

Similar dependence on organ foods.

>Baked or boiled Gammon or bacon

Ahh, nothing like a little bit of boiled bacon to start the day.

>Spiced beef (silverside)
>Raised pies.

Krispy Kremes anybody?

>Pigeon pie
>Venison casseroles

Why ruin a good chunk of deer by over-cooking en casserole?

>Jugged Hare.
>Oxtail, tomato, peascot, jerusalem and broad bean soups. (and many others)

Now, we a bit of chile added and maybe the beans being pintos, we're
starting to get somewhere.

>Finnan haddock, smoked salmon, kedgeree, fish pie. Kipper paste, potted
>shrimps, crabs and salmon. Fresh scotch wild salmon poached in cider (US
>hard cider).

Try some Copper River Salmon in the US next time you visit, if it's in
the late spring/early summer. Makes your Scotch wild, taste like
canned tuna.
>
>Some of the world's finest cheeses come from the UK, think of a top class
>Stilton or Cheddar (though there are many others).

Indeed!
>
>And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
>England's supremacy.

They died during the Revolution I believe. Victims of the Reign of
Terror.
>
>Apple pie, (and pear pie) Double crust fruit pies, cobblers, crumbles,
>steamed and sponge puddings, custards, fools, syllabubs, trifles. There are
>dozens of traditional british puddings that are a true delight when well
>made.

Some of those are wonderful, but a steamed pud takes an incredible
amount of port to be upgraded to delightful.
>
>The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
>fine English cuisine, but to find it.

You do keep it hidden well. Traditional British reserve, I guess.

> Nearly all traditional English food is
>extraordinarily badly adapted to serving in restaurants, and there are very
>few restaurants indeed where it is done. What CAN be found, ever
>increasingly, are examples of modern english fine cooking, where traditional
>dishes or ingredients are recreated in a way that IS capable of being served
>well in a modern restaurant. But these restaurants are extremely expensive,
>on the whole. Nevertheless the cuisine exists, and competes on equal terms
>with anything from anywhere else in the world.
>
>I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
>American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).

The previously mentioned fried chicken (pan, roast, deep, battered or
basted), chop suey (although admittedly insipid in most iterations),
pecan pie, catfish & hushpuppies, and the entire range of either
Tex-Mex or SW cuisine (they are distinctly different.)

Then we can add BBQ (dry or wet), chili (vice chile), sugar-cured ham
(not air dried), red-eye gravy, the increasingly endangered hand-made
hamburger, the entire panoply of the NY deli, the menu of the average
American mom/pop truck stop--particularly the "chicken-fried steak"
when done properly, loads of fresh fish dishes from the East and West
coastal regions, the traditional American turkey dinner, .....

Ahh, but I've kidded, teased and tweaked you enough.

Seriously, food is not a zero-sum game. Simply because one gives
credit to a national cuisine does not mean that another is inferior in
any way. It still must be noted, however, that perception often comes
very close to equaling reality. And, the perception of most folks is
that British cuisine is heavily dependent upon the immigrant ethnic
cooking of the former colonies and sadly lacking in the Anglo-Saxon
basics.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ian Hoare wrote:
> Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,
>
> le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you
> said:-
>
>> In article >,
>> Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the
>>>> difference?
>>>
>>> You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these
>>> 14 chosen
>>> restaurants are from all nationalities except british?
>
>> I am.
>
> Then you're wrong.
>
>> I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.
>
> Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK,
> certainly. Not
> that that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of
> British
> food OR English wine.
>
>
>> What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British
>> recipes lists
>> "Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the
>> British
>> for recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>
> That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the
> cuisine.
>
> In fact it is extremely hard to say where one cuisine starts
> and
> another ends.
>
>

Fascinating discussion Ian! You made me hungry just reading it
tho' I've never had spit-roasted beef. Your mention of apple pie
reminds me that the common New England accompaniment of
Cheddar-type cheese is also quite usual in Yorkshire.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:17:05 +0000 (UTC), (D. Gerasimatos) said:

[]
] Anyway, I am just teasing Ian about British food. It's not all bad. However, it
] isn't really that exciting either featuring lots of stews and soups, pudding,
] and sandwiches. Of course, the British eventually adopted the flavors of
] India, France, Italy, Spain, and the Far East into their gourmet cooking,
] but this these are not British inventions like 'fish and chips', 'mushy
] peas', and 'steak and kidney pie'.
]

Hi Dimitri,

I understand that your teasing, but you have certainly named 3 delicious
(or 2 anyway, one could probably argue for all sorts of origin of fish and
chips) dishes.

As an example, well prepared "mushy peas with mint" are great: young
peas, boiled (but not too much) with fresh mint, lightly mashed with
butter, cream, salt and pepper. What better way to enjoy peas?

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

[snip eloquent defense]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare > said:

] To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
] on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
] animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
] Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should

Or, of course, genisse Normande. Now I know what to serve when you and
Jacquie come to dinner on your next trip north! One of our all time
favorites. With this caveat: The beef should be cooked properly _in_ the
yorkshire, so the fat and jiuces add all that great flavor.

Although I agree in principle about the salt, I find that if the oven is really
very hot one can use a crust of wet gray guerande salt without bleeding
away the juices.

Also, braised sprouts and chestnuts are a necessary accompaniment,
and perhaps to lighten the whole thing that completely american dish,
Waldorf Salade, in this case 'au Grandpere' because he prefered the
whole thing molded up in aspic, and so we've always done this variation.

I think I can provide the Hermitage, but there are so many options. A
nice earthy Pessac, an older CdP... heck even a powerful old Chinon
is a great match! (And of course, with cold leftovers the next day.)
This is to my mind one of the most wine friendly of meals, so long
as you don't throw too much sweet fruit juice at it.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:14:46 +0200, Emery Davis > said:

][]
] I understand that your teasing, but you have certainly named 3 delicious

Just to point out that despite appearances to the contrary I am not a total
cretin, I meant to say "you're."

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

The best quality of beef in the US is the official grade US Prime. It
must have a high degree of marbling of fat, among other things. Under
one percent of US beef meets US Prime standards. For the home, you
usually have to order it from a few high end compaies such as Allen
Bros. in Chicago or Lobels in NYC. In addition to being of US prime
grade, the beef must be properly aged. Most quality US beef is now wet
aged(wraped to prevent evaporation). However tradational dry aged beef
can be had from a very few top compaies. The wet aged beef has a
somewhat milder taste than the dry aged which has a more nutty taste.
The aging time runs from about 3 weeks to 5 weeks for the best beef. The
best beef in the US usually comes from the midwest where it is fed grass
and hay when it is young. However it must be fed a high corn diet near
the end to reach the high standards of US prime. The Japanese breed
Wagyu is now grown somewhat in the US. This requires even more special
feeding to reach high quality including mash from distilleries. In
short, top beef requires a special diet, at least near the end, to reach
the highest quality. This is somewhat the same situation as for foie
gras production, but in a much less extreme form. Although I could
obtain a top prime rib roast at home, that is just too much meat for me.
Thus I would order it at a restaurant instead - if I can find one of the
few restaurants that serve top quality beef. For home use, I find the
best cut for roasting is about the center two pound part of the best US
prime tenderloin, either from the usual beef breeds or Wagyu. This
should be completely trimmed of external fat. A row of truffle pieces
inserted in the center helps greatly. No larding is needed for the top
grade of beef, for the high degree of marbling provides plenty of fat
for a tender roast.

Reply to .

It's not too hard to find USDA prime beef at upscale grocery stores like
Whole Foods, Bristol Farms, and Gelson's. I have read that most USDA prime
ends up in restaurants, though.


Dimitri

Dimitri states: "It's not too hard to find USDA prime beef at upscale
grocery stores like Whole Foods, Bristol Farms, and Gelson's. I have
read that most USDA prime ends up in restaurants, though."

Yes you can still find US prime beef at some grocery stores, and in the
past you could find it at many more. However US prime is just the
starting point, and only indicates that the beef has certain technical
characteristics needed for top beef. The ability of the beef buyer to
select the very best prime carcass is all important. A top supplier such
as Allen Bros. or Lobels selects only the very best despite the price.
Some others select the cheapest so long as it is US prime. Then there is
the matter of how the beef is then aged. Lobels is an expert on dry
aging. Allen Bros. provides top examples of both wet and dry aged beef.
Both Lobels and Allen Bros., as well as a few others, provide reliable
air delivery, so your location is no longer an important factor. The
stores you mention may have wonderful US prime beef - they are not in my
area, so I do not know. However I have yet to find any stores in my area
that have or that can special order prime beef that offers anywhere near
the quality of the sources I mentioned. Of course you will pay a premium
price if you want the top quality beef. But beef is fairly easy to
prepare at home, so in the end you will likely pay much less than going
to a restaurant that serves a lower grade beef and wines with high
markups.

Reply to .

Mark,
Great review.
Manresa is one my favorite restaurants in the USA.
I only live a few block's from Manresa.
Rick



"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
news
> Last night, I met a friend for dinner at the restaurant Manresa in Los
> Gatos, CA. The restaurant and its chef, David Kinch, have recently
> received quite a bit of positive press in the NY Times magazine, Gourmet
> magazine and -- most recently -- it was cited as #38 on a list of the "Top
> 50 Restaurants in the World," as compiled by London's Restaurant Magazine.
> The emphasis at Manresa is on the creative use of locally procured
> ingredients. Although Mr. Kinch was absent from the kitchen last night
> (he's in London this week), the kitchen was ably run by his long-time
> sous-chef Jeremy. Both of us opted for the tasting menu, which we left up
> to the chef (as in Japanese omakase).
>
> Here is what we ate, and the wines that we had with it:
>
> amuse bouches:
> red pepper and black olive "petits fours"
>
> This gives me a picture of what the chef is doing. Here he subverts the
> standard idea of petit fours by swapping savory for sweet flavors. It's an
> intellectually stimulating way to start the meal.
>
> Mexican lime and hibiscus "cocktail"
>
> Yes, hibiscus! This consisted of a lime granita with a small infusion of
> tequila, atop of which was a red hibiscus jelly (for lack of a more
> descriptive term). The combination was very refreshing and stimulating to
> the palate.
>
> Parmesan churros
>
> Mashed potato and parmesan shaped into logs and deep fried. Nice finger
> food.
>
> Strawberry gazpacho
>
> This is apparently one of the signature dishes of Manresa, and it was a
> standout. The strawberry was present in small quantity, just enough in
> fact to "brighten" the tomato in the gazpacho, which also was seasoned
> with chives and lime.
>
> Salt cod bunyols, honey and sherry
>
> Frankly, I don't remember much about this dish -- I must have been
> distracted.
>
> The "infamous egg"
>
> [The name derives from some flak the chef took from some foodies online
> regarding whether he'd properly attributed this dish to L'Arpege
> restaurant, where it originated]
>
> A soft-boiled egg is opened up and, on top of the egg is placed some
> whipped cream and maple syrup. I know that it sounds bizarre, but it
> works and is a fascinating combination of flavors, not at all bizarre in
> taste. This BTW is another signature dish of Manresa.
>
> With all of the above, we had a bottle of Pierre Peters Cuvée de Reserve
> Blanc de Blancs Brut Le Mesnil Champagne. I didn't know this producer,
> but it came recommended by the staff and was very good: not much toast,
> citrus and green apple with a very pronounced mousse. It reminded me
> quite a bit of the few Champagnes of Egly-Ouriet that I've had.
>
> This was followed by:
>
> "Twice cooked" foie gras with delta asparagus
>
> A very thin slice of foie gras (the twice cooked bit I don't quite get)
> with lots of black pepper was draped over an asparagus tip. Very
> enjoyable combination.
>
> Japanese fluke, sashimi-style, with olive oil and chives
>
> I don't remember much about this dish, either, probably because it was
> eclipsed by what followed.
>
> "Just shucked" scallops with oceanic gelée
>
> This was another standout dish. The scallops were either raw or very
> lightly cooked, minced and reassembled into a football shape. Surrounding
> it was the gelée, which had a salty/citrusy character. The scallops were
> delicious on their own, but the gelée did add to the overall flavor as
> well. Totally delicious
>
> Artichoke soup with chickpea frites and manchego
>
> This was essentially a reworked version of French onion soup, with the
> chickpea frites standing in for the bread and the shaved Manchego
> replacing the Gruyére. The thick asparagus soup was poured over the solid
> ingredients, which slowly softened. The soup was rich and wonderful, and
> the solids provided interesting surprises when encountered.
>
> Skate wing with morels, fava bean pesto
>
> To me, this could have been a Charlie Trotter dish. All the ingredients
> were carefully showcased, and the combination of flavors provided the
> interest. The skate wing had been grilled and combined beautifully with
> the small, soft morels. The fava bean "pesto" tasted fresh, in contrast
> to the other flavors.
>
> Rouget and clams a la plancha, sweet and sour sauce
>
> Manresa's custom-designed kitchen includes a griddle-like plancha for
> searing fish on. In this dish, small squares of rouget (what's the
> English name for rouget?) were seared on the plancha and served with a
> very subtle "sweet and sour" sauce. I don't honestly remember the clams.
>
> These dishes were eaten with two wines that I'd brought along:
>
> 2002 Roland Lavantureux Chablis
>
> Initially a bit reticent, this opened up after 30 minutes to reveal the
> character that I remembered: good minerality, lemony citrus and green
> apples. As time wore on, the minerality became more pronounced.
>
> 2003 Manfred Felsner Grüner Veltliner Moosburgerin Kremstal
>
> A lighter-styled GV, but one that still has great substance to it and no
> signs of flabbiness from the hot vintage of 2003. It showed typical
> pepper and floral notes with citrus and some kind of melon on the palate
> and a nice, crisp finish. Not the biggest GV, but good varietal character
> and a nice complement to many of the fish dishes we had.
>
> Then, the final round of savory dishes:
>
> Local abalone with slow-cooked veal cheeks
>
> For me, this was the highlight of the dinner (and another signature dish!)
> The square of pan-fried abalone alone would qualify as a treat but, placed
> atop a small pile of braised veal cheeks, it was taken to a new level.
> Both components were excellent in their own right, but eating them
> together proved to be a revelatory experience. Surf and turf reinvented.
>
> Milk fed Pennsylvania pouillard stuffed with porcini mushrooms
>
> This was a delicious dish, reminding me quite a bit of dishes I'd had in
> France. Coming immediately after the previous dish, it suffered a bit in
> comparison.
>
> Season's last choucroute with suckling pig and boudin noir
>
> Two different parts of the pig found their into the choucroute, and the
> house-made boudin noir sausage was tremendous. The sauerkraut was
> somewhat subdued, giving this choucroute a bit of refinement.
>
> Baby spring lamb and merguez, goats' milk whey polenta
>
> I mostly remember the house-made merguez sausage, which was garlicky and
> good. The creamy polenta also provided a great backdrop to the meats.
>
> With these dishes, it was deemed prudent to get a red wine, so we opted to
> get by the glass:
>
> Robert Sinskey 2001 Los Carneros Pinot Noir
>
> A very decent Pinot from one of my favorite producers of Carneros PN.
> Soft, lush, with clear varietal fruit and a hint of smoke. It was very
> good with the veal and choucroute, but a bit overwhelmed by the lamb.
>
> The desserts:
>
> Green apple and rhubarb sorbet
>
> Of the two, the rhubarb was startlingly good.
>
> Pineapple beignets with passion fruit
>
> Delicious combination of the cooked pineapple and the passion fruit.
>
> Strawberry soufflé with kaffir lime ice cream
>
> The soufflé itself was great, but the combination with the lime flavor
> proved fasinating, even at this late stage of the meal.
>
> Chocolate marquis and devil's food cake
> Petits fours "white peach-chocolate"
>
> By this time, I'd basically had enough, so didn't really sample these last
> two desserts well enough to have much to say about them.
>
> The meal lasted just over four hours, though at no point did I feel either
> rushed or impatient for the next course. One point worth making here is
> that, although there were 21 different plates presented to us, the
> portions were quite small so that, even by the end of the meal I was not
> overly full. Instead, the cumulative impact of all the different flavors
> was almost kaleidoscopic. The overall impression of the cooking was
> certainly the creative use of high quality, fresh ingredients; beyond
> that, however, was the desire to create (what for me is) a new synthesis.
> This is not "fusion" cooking in the hackneyed sense, but rather a coming
> together of several different traditions with this ethos of highlighting
> the ingredients themselves. At the same time, I never felt that the
> combinations were forced or that the chef was trying to do too much in a
> given dish. Each dish had its own distinct character, and it was the
> sucession of dishes of differing character that provided a lot of the
> excitement.
>
> All in all, a most memorable meal, conceived of by a rising superstar of a
> chef. The wines, while good, were in the end overshadowed by the cooking,
> but the cooking was what I was there to experience after all...
>
> One final thought: with the growing popularity of chef's tasting menus
> such as this one, it's becoming increasingly difficult to select a single
> bottle of wine that will go with a meal. Restaurants such as this will
> usually have a selected list of wines by the glass to accompany the
> tasting menu, but at times patrons will not want to partake of those
> wines. In such cases, restaurants will need to increase their supplies of
> half bottles to provide greater flexibility to their patrons in choosing
> wines to go with the food.
>
> Mark Lipton
>
>
>
>

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
. ..
> As an example, well prepared "mushy peas with mint" are great: young
> peas, boiled (but not too much) with fresh mint, lightly mashed with
> butter, cream, salt and pepper. What better way to enjoy peas?

I heard an Englishman describing the preparation of mushy peas on the radio.
Basically, he dumped drained, canned peas into a dish, smashed them with a
fork and added a bit of salt and pepper before heating them. His comment:
"Luvley". Mine: "BLECCHH"!

Tom S

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:36:17 GMT, "Tom S" > said:

]
] "Emery Davis" > wrote in message
] . ..
] > As an example, well prepared "mushy peas with mint" are great: young
] > peas, boiled (but not too much) with fresh mint, lightly mashed with
] > butter, cream, salt and pepper. What better way to enjoy peas?
]
] I heard an Englishman describing the preparation of mushy peas on the radio.
] Basically, he dumped drained, canned peas into a dish, smashed them with a
] fork and added a bit of salt and pepper before heating them. His comment:
] "Luvley". Mine: "BLECCHH"!
]

Ack. Indeed. Well, I suppose it's possible to make mashed potatoes from
powder, too! :/

cheers Tom,

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

I live in an area where dry-aged prime is fairly obtainable. It is of
course comparatively expensive (understandable with the cost of prime
beef, the weight loss from drying, and the expense of hanging). So
sometimes I buy and sometimes I go with less expensive beef.

I tend to go for the dry-aged prime for :
rib roasts for a serious dinner party (as I find the 2 rib roasts
generally unacceptable, need to be serving enough folks to make a 3 or
4 bone practical)
steaks that I intend to grill rather plainly

I find younger or wet-aged beef acceptable for :
grilled steaks that are heavily seasoned (lik a coffee-cumin crust)
steaks that are in a sauce (i.e. au poivre)

Of course there's no point in buying dry-aged for pot roast type cuts.

As to tenderloin, your point re the truffles is key. The tenderloin is
as tender as its name implies, but the meat is not as flavorful as some
other cuts. To me it needs a sauce or a flavor-booster like your
truffle idea. Hmmmm, maybe time for a d'Artagnan order....

Thanks for comments.

When I was at the market the other day they had dry-aged choice steaks
and regularly-aged prime cuts for the same price. I went with the choice
cuts and I have to say that it was pretty good, if not quite as tender
as dry-aged prime.


Dimitri

In article >,
Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>
>Ah yes. A French mystery. I make a damn good mashed potatoes, but
>French people are AMAZED that I make my own, as though this were a
>complex procedure... Almost everyone here makes that disgusting mash
>from potato flakes you buy at the supermarket. And you thought french
>people were so sophisticated about food: on average, nothing is
>further from the truth.


They sure do dress well, though - especially the ladies.


Dimitri

Salut/Hi Ed Rasimus,

le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:08:41 -0600, tu disais/you said:-

>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare >
>wrote:

>Ian offers an excellent treatise on the proper roasting of beef while
>simultaneously stereotyping and occasionally bordering on offending
>some of his American friends.

If I used stereotypes, I'm truly sorry, I had no intention of doing so.
Forgive me. However, I do stand by what I sald about chowder, which I had in
a number of restaurant chains until I learnt that it was uniformly awful. I
admit to being a slow learner, but I do so love it, that I kept hoping to
find one that wasn't over salted, heavily thickened either with cornflour or
with modified starch, and under endowed with cream and clams.

>I've got to ask where else in the world but the US can one find
>quality, flavorful, economical, and untainted beef so readily
>available?

Venezuela. The best beef I've ever had was there. But that's not really the
point. I was referring to the availability of good beef for roasting in the
UK.

>My exposure to English wine (is that an oxymoron or merely a
>possessive phrase?)

There is some - a tiny amount - and some of it is nearly drinkable. But a
restaurant isn't going to stock much of it for obvious reasons.

>>>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>>>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>>>recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>>
>>That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.
>
>Does the criticism involve the crediting of the Brits or is the
>identification of the QL and CM as British recipes?

The latter. Mind you, that's nearly as bad a solecism as that committed by a
recent British immigrant here who put Paella into his english language book
on correzian cooking. He also managed to make a grammatical error in the
title (sourgrapeish s******).

>Grilled ham and cheese seems a pretty generic dish to attribute to ANY national
>cuisine.

No Ed, in your entirely laudable wish to tease me, don't make silly
gastronomic mistakes. Croque monsieur is a slice of ham and a slice of
gruyère, (not random cheese) in a sandwich, which is then fried - not
grilled. Because the USA invented the sandwich toaster, one might just as
well accuse your country of inventing the dish, which is ideally adapted to
the sandwich maker.

Actually, there is a long and honourable tradition in the UK of a bacon and
agg pie, which is quite close to the Quiche Lorraine. But my guess would be
that - as in the case of Clafoutis and Toad in the Hole - this is a
coincidence rather than borrowing.

> I can only note that most Americans would identify pizza as Italian.

Which, given the dish you call pizza, would be something less than true. The
Italian original bears little relationship to the products of Pizza Hut,
Pizza express, and the other fast food chains. Sure there's some kind of
crust underneath and some kind of topping, often with tomato, above. I have
to confess to greatly preferring American pizza, by the way, to the
original, which I find truly boring.

> Chowder is a distinctly regional dish and seldom seen in most of the states except in cans.

You make my point. An unsuspecting foreigner, arriving in the States, and
asking for and receiving a chowder, "knowing it to be an american
speciality", would be served a disagreeable travesty. Do that with several
of the other well known "american dishes", and you can understand how they
will leave with a poor impression of American food, while you (and I, having
eaten better, too) will defend it as being delicious as a cuisine.

> Fruit pie of any can is multi-national

Nope, it's English. The pie - generic - is an English invention.

> and meatloaf is so generic as to defy identification with a cuisine.

Don't agree at all. Although polpettone exists in Italian cuisine, it bears
very little relationship to meatloaf, as I've seen them. I don't know of a
Spanish dish of the type, nor of one in the UK or Ireland. That leaves
Germany and Poland (I'm thinking of source countries for mass USian
immigration), whose cuisines have much in common. And lo and behold there
are two dishes "Fashiert" which I used to have in my childhood, and which is
translated literally as "minced" and "Falsches Hase" - false hare. Both of
these are similar, Germanic and I'd claim them to be obvious forebears of
your Meatloaf.

>Now, to be technically correct, we could cite "chop suey" as an American creation.

Indeed.

>But, I'd rather point to the cooking of the great Southwest with its Mexican and Native American inspired dishes.

I have the greatest admiration for Mexican cooking. Although in the 2 months
we were there, we only touched the surface of the possibilities, I was
amazed by its diversity and subtlety and above all by its breadth. Of all
the cuisines I've had in the Americas, it was by far and away the most
interesting.

What I'm saying, and with no intention of demeaning or diminishing, is that
dishes that are commonly thought of as being "American" often owe their
origins to those of the immigrants who populated the USA and made it what it
is today. I don't think a dish needs to have been originally created in the
Americas to be legitimately considered to be American. It is sufficient for
it to be generally adopted, and significantly changed.

>>By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
>>in fact.
>
>those best loved Brit recipes would be?

Apple Pie, roast beef, bacon generally, beef casseroles. Lemon meringue pie
and its variants, jello (not a thing to be particularly proud of,
admittedly) Muffins, most american cakes, spring instantly to mind, but
there are dozens. However, I think we're digressing here.

>>Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
>>Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
>>dishes that are becoming fast favourites.
>
>And, let me note that Indian cuisine in major British cities is alone
>worth the trip .

Agreed, though at the moment I think it's too early to say that __indian
restaurant food__ is yet British. It will become it in time, I suspect,
rather as dishes like kedgeree (kitchiri bhoona) and mulligatawnee (muligoo
tunni) have become genuinely british - and transformed almost out of
recognition in the process.

One of the most truly awful british dishes is "Curry". As I used to have it
as a schoolboy, it was a badly prepared beef stew, always made with the
nastiest, fattiest, most gristly bits of meat. Into this unspeakable brew
were thrown raisins (with seeds, naturally) and apples. Then at the last
minute they would liberally "season" the dish with "curry powder". This was
of dreadful quality, and because of the way in which it was used, was
uncooked. It gave the finished (as bad a perversion of the word as can be
imagined) dish a nasty tasting grittiness that I remember in stomach heaving
clarity 50 years later. I almost had to be DRAGGED to eat at Veereswamy's
(Almost the only Indian Restaurant in London at the time) back in around
1960, so badly had my experiences traumatised me. I can remember to this day
my utter astonishment and delight. Though with what I know now about Indian
cooking, I'd probably judge it as pretty mediocre nowadays.

>>I call Roast Beef a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
>>English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).

>>chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
>>meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.
>
>Nebraska in the US offers some excellent examples of grass fed beef in
>a region with enough grass to pull it off properly.

I WAS referring to the availability of such meat in the UK.

>>roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
>>Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
>>that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.
>
>Dunno where you draw the assumption that Americans would choose round
>or blade or even chuck for preparation of a roast beef.

I wasn't talking about Americans. I was talking about _English Cuisine_. I
used american names for cuts, in deference to the language spoken by the
majority of readers here.

>>depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
>>from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
>>Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
>>isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.
>
>Great English wines all. Ooopps.

All wines well known in the UK and very much more part of British culture
than they are of American culture, where, if we were to descend to your
level of snidity, the height of food/drink matching excellence for much of
the last century seems to have been sweetened iced tea and/or coke with
chicken fried steak.

>>In practice,

[snip]

>>themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.
>
>I think you've just stated the case against British cuisine quite
>nicely.

No I haven't. Read on...

>>But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
>>in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
>>food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

There are two separate issues. What dishes _should_ be like, and what you
get in restaurants. I defend British cuisine and American cuisine elsewhere
on the basis of what it is capable of, not on the basis of the muck that is
often served up to the public in most places.

>>Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)
>
>An acquired taste. Can be sublime. Usually a challenge to ingest.

Exactly, "can be sublime". The cuisine is excellent, its execution is all
too often awful.

>>Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies
>Similar dependence on organ foods.

Absolutely wrong. No offal in any of these. The major ingredient in Cottage
pie is minced beef, and in Shepherd's pie it's minced lamb or mutton. I've
never seen a recipe that calls for any offal, though one could perfectly
well mince up some heart to add complexity of flavours.

>>Spiced beef (silverside)
>>Raised pies.
>
>Krispy Kremes anybody?

Whatever are these?

>>Pigeon pie
>>Venison casseroles

>Why ruin a good chunk of deer by over-cooking en casserole?

When it's your age, Ed, it's about the only way to make it palatable!


>>And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
>>England's supremacy.
>
>They died during the Revolution I believe. Victims of the Reign of
>Terror.

Nope, most escaped to the UK and had a huge influence on (some would say
"perverted") British cooking in their day and ever since.


>Some of those are wonderful, but a steamed pud takes an incredible
>amount of port to be upgraded to delightful.

Nonsense. Try a sussex pond pudding, or little sticky toffee puddings, or
fair knights of windsor.

>>The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
>>fine English cuisine, but to find it.
>
>You do keep it hidden well.

Not really "hidden" as inadapted to restaurant cooking.


>>I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
>>American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).
>
>The previously mentioned fried chicken (pan, roast, deep, battered or
>basted),

Agreed. Limited, but excellent.

>pecan pie,

Agreed, though far too sweet in 95% of cases. Would you like the recipe I
use, which isn't too sweet and which I often serve here? (I should also add
that Pecan pie has a close British homologue "Walnut pie").

>Tex-Mex or SW cuisine (they are distinctly different.)

Indeed they are and both truly excellent, as long as they're not being used
as a measure of the size of your manhood by the number of jalapenos, New
Mexico and Red Savinas used to cook it and the volume of "Texas Pete",
"Ring of Fire", or "Dave's Insanity" sauces with which it's doused.

You could also have mentioned Cajun and Creole cuisines, which are also
excellent.

>Seriously, food is not a zero-sum game. Simply because one gives
>credit to a national cuisine does not mean that another is inferior in
>any way.

There we are in 100% agreement. One of the things that really drives me mad,
is the propensity of the French to do just that.

> It still must be noted, however, that perception often comes very close to equaling reality.

Grin... I'd hate to see american food being judged in that way!

> And, the perception of most folks is that British cuisine is heavily dependent upon the immigrant ethnic
>cooking of the former colonies and sadly lacking in the Anglo-Saxon basics.

And that perception is - as I've said - based on what was available in most
restaurants in the UK since the 1st world war. The quality of restaurant
cuisine in the UK has changed dramatically in the last 15 or 20 years, Ed.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Greetings Ian;.

You reveal the source of your troubles with North American chowder sampling
by the use of one word; CHAIN.

Sweet loving Jeehover man, real, quality chowders are only to be found in
small Mom and Pop joints one has serious misgivings going into. Year before
last Margaret and I spent 11 days touring the Canadian maritimes, revisiting
old haunts and mostly avoiding cities like the plague and ate chowders (fish
and/or clam) every day in search of the best one. Most chowders were at
least very good, a few were scrumptious and one, just one,a fish chowder
served in a little "Family" joint on the outskirts of Annapolis Royal was
absolutely to die for.

Why do my fondest memories always somehow revolve around the food?
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address


However, I do stand by what I sald about chowder, which I had in
> a number of restaurant chains until I learnt that it was uniformly awful.
I
> admit to being a slow learner, but I do so love it, that I kept hoping to
> find one that wasn't over salted, heavily thickened either with cornflour
or
> with modified starch, and under endowed with cream and clams.
>

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:26:33 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Ed Rasimus,

Ian,

Let me thank you for the opportunity to have a delightful interchange
in which we each got to tease each other a bit, educated each other a
bit and inject a level of maturity increasingly seldom encountered in
Usenet these days.

And, only one response to your extensive post:

Regarding the deer being my age and requiring prep "en
casserole"--being only familiar with "dog years" I can't begin to
envision the hooved ungulate approaching anywhere near my level of
"maturity". I'm fortunate enough to live in state blessed with game
and to have an excellent place in which to hunt. The result is young
venison in the freezer every year for the last twelve, and an elk
about one out of three. Typically doe deer and cow elk, about three
years old. You'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from the finest
loin of beef or veal.

Cheers, and thanks.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Cwdjrx _" in ...
> The best quality of beef in the US is the official grade
> US Prime. ... For the home, you usually have to order it
> from a few high end compaies ... For home use, I find the
> best cut for roasting is about the center two pound part of
> the best US prime tenderloin ... A row of truffle pieces
> inserted in the center helps greatly.

I agree. Several (18) years ago, having seen the photo of Filet of Beef in
Aspic "Strasbourgeoise" in the US's _Gourmet Cook Book_ (1950, not the
recent revised edition) for a couple of decades, I thought it was time to
try the dish. (This recipe has more beef filet than Cwdjrx suggested, and
more than a "row" of truffle pieces, in fact it is stuffed with black
truffles, in bulk. Which were expensive in the 1980s, though not as much so
as today. That was during the temporary interval when almost everyone in
the US thought that truffles meant something made out of chocolate.)

Quality local butchers do exist in the US and one happened to be next door
to a source of truffles in Oakland, California. I made an incision down the
filet, stuffed it with a ruinous supply of fresh black truffles peeled and
dipped (parboiled? don't remember) in Madeira, wrapped the filet in caul,
tied it, seared, braised with a little Madeira to medium-rare, cooled,
chilled, surrounded it with a thick blanked of incredibly good Madeira
aspic, laid out on a platter with garnish or two, photographed it (as not
the sort of thing one makes every day, not this one anyway), and took it to
a party where a surprisingly large fraction was consumed by the calculating
Gershon Rabinowitz, a Platonist at the University who engineered sundry
ruses to save face, while relentlessly returning for more. By the time the
party's best-known cook arrived (Paul Bertolli, still at Chez Panisse then),
it was all gone. In fact it went fast, regardless of Rabinowitz's
attentions.

(Another anecdote from the same party is in my amazon.com comments on
Wechsberg's little classic _Blue Trout and Black Truffles_ by the way.)

--Max