Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,

le/on Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:28:04 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you said:-

>In article >,
>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>
>[snip!]
>>
>>One in the eye for those I've seen recently here who knock food in the UK.
>
>
>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?

You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
restaurants are from all nationalities except british?

A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article >,
Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>
>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?
>
>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
>restaurants are from all nationalities except british?


I am. I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.


>A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts.


What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
recognizing good food when they see it, though.


Dimitri

Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,

le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you said:-

>In article >,
>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>>
>>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference?
>>
>>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen
>>restaurants are from all nationalities except british?

>I am.

Then you're wrong.

> I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.

Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK, certainly. Not that
that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of British food OR
English wine.


>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>recognizing good food when they see it, though.

That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.

In fact it is extremely hard to say where one cuisine starts and another
ends.

Creme Brûlée, is commonly believed to be French in fact its first recorded
appearance is in Cambridge in the UK.

Equally, good old American Pizza, Apple Pie, Chowder and Meatloaf owe their
origins to 4 different European countries, although they've all been adopted
by the USA (some might say perverted) and most USAians would say they are
American dishes.

By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
in fact.

I'd never claim that English cuisine is one of the world's top cuisines,
though I would put in on a par with or ahead of several other European
countries. What would be interesting, IMO would be to discuss at what point
a dish becomes legitmately part of a nation's cuisine. For example, "Spag
Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
dishes that are becoming fast favourites.

What I found quite interesting the other day was that the BBC carried out a
survey of the nation's favourite Sunday lunch. (As representative of a meal
that had slightly festive family meal connotations). Roast Beef and
Yorkshire pudding was the clear and unequivocal winner, and I'd certainly
agree that it is very much a defining dish of British cuisine. To the point
that the French equivalent of "Frogs" (Britspeak for French) is "Les
Rosbifs".

I call it a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).

To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should
ideally be slaughtered near the farm where it lived, to avoid stress
chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.

The meat should be quartered and then hung at least two weeks, though three
weeks would be better. It should then be butchered in such a way that the
cut to be roast should have both bone and its own covering fat. Sirloin and
Ribs are both classic roasting cuts, and they should both have meat that is
well marbled with fat, if the roast is to be excellent. It's no good
roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.

Real roasting is done on a spit in front of a bright open fire. I recommend
trying it at least once in your life, as it's an order better than the roast
we all know, which is actually baking. The meat should never be salted
before roasting as this has a tendancy to prevent the meat browning
properly. The meat should be allowed to warm to room temperature after being
seasoned (loads of pepper and dry mustard powder plus thyme).

The meat should be roast in an extremely hot oven (225 or so) for a short
time, from 20 mins to 40 mins per kg depending upon how it's liked, though
over cooked roast beef is an abomination. It is normal to roast beef very
rare at the centre, and carve the outside slices for those who prefer their
meat (over) cooked. After 10-15 mins in the oven, the meat can be removed
briefly, basted and then salted. Basting should be frequent - to imitate the
continual basting of the true rotating open fire spit roast.

English Roast Beef is traditionally served with roast potatoes, yorkshire
pudding, horseradish sauce, gravy and at least two other vegetables
depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.

In practice, in the majority of British domestic kitchens, the beef is too
young, factory farmed, underhung, and from an inappropriate (cheaper) cut.
The intrinsic quality that roasting brings out simply isn't there. I might
add, that this is also the case in France, where - so far - I've never found
a single example of roast beef half as good as that served even in the
current dumbed down domestic version.

The situation in the majority of small restaurants is considerably worse.
Most will give up when faced with the difficulty of producing a perfectly
roast cut, perfectly served at the moment the diners require it. They cook
it in advance and flash reheat it at the moment of service. The vegetables
equally will be reheated, and the essential accompanying gravy etc will
themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.

But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

Leaving roasting aside, although it IS the quntessentially british way of
cooking, especially of game birds, there are many other fine traditional
English dishes which stand comparison with anything from Europe.

Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)
Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies
Baked or boiled Gammon or bacon
Spiced beef (silverside)
Raised pies.
Pigeon pie
Venison casseroles
Jugged Hare.
Oxtail, tomato, peascot, jerusalem and broad bean soups. (and many others)
Finnan haddock, smoked salmon, kedgeree, fish pie. Kipper paste, potted
shrimps, crabs and salmon. Fresh scotch wild salmon poached in cider (US
hard cider).

Some of the world's finest cheeses come from the UK, think of a top class
Stilton or Cheddar (though there are many others).

And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
England's supremacy.

Apple pie, (and pear pie) Double crust fruit pies, cobblers, crumbles,
steamed and sponge puddings, custards, fools, syllabubs, trifles. There are
dozens of traditional british puddings that are a true delight when well
made.

The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
fine English cuisine, but to find it. Nearly all traditional English food is
extraordinarily badly adapted to serving in restaurants, and there are very
few restaurants indeed where it is done. What CAN be found, ever
increasingly, are examples of modern english fine cooking, where traditional
dishes or ingredients are recreated in a way that IS capable of being served
well in a modern restaurant. But these restaurants are extremely expensive,
on the whole. Nevertheless the cuisine exists, and competes on equal terms
with anything from anywhere else in the world.

I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

Ian offers an excellent treatise on the proper roasting of beef while
simultaneously stereotyping and occasionally bordering on offending
some of his American friends.

I've got to agree with the beef recommendations, including the ageing,
the processing tips, the "no salt while roasting" warning, the high
temp sealing and even the spit roasting--although a modern convection
oven could mitigate the advantage a bit.

But, then, having suffered in recent years from being denied the
opportunity to donate blood during local drives as a result of my
eight year tenure in Europe where I might have been exposed to British
beef, I've got to ask where else in the world but the US can one find
quality, flavorful, economical, and untainted beef so readily
available?

>Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK, certainly. Not that
>that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of British food OR
>English wine.

My exposure to English wine (is that an oxymoron or merely a
possessive phrase?) is so limited that I will refrain from gratuitous
nationalism regarding France, Italy, Germany, Australia or (dare I
mention?) the USA.

>>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>>recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>
>That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.

Does the criticism involve the crediting of the Brits or is the
identification of the QL and CM as British recipes? Grilled ham and
cheese seems a pretty generic dish to attribute to ANY national
cuisine.

>Equally, good old American Pizza, Apple Pie, Chowder and Meatloaf owe their
>origins to 4 different European countries, although they've all been adopted
>by the USA (some might say perverted) and most USAians would say they are
>American dishes.

Being a somewhat larger nation than Britain (although I heard in the
past that the sun never set on British soil...it seems to have shrunk
considerably in recent years), I can only note that most Americans
would identify pizza as Italian. Chowder is a distinctly regional dish
and seldom seen in most of the states except in cans. Fruit pie of any
can is multi-national and meatload is so generic as to defy
identification with a cuisine.

Now, to be technically correct, we could cite "chop suey" as an
American creation. But, I'd rather point to the cooking of the great
Southwest with its Mexican and Native American inspired dishes. Or,
the American South with things like Fried Chicken, cornbread,
hush-puppies, catfish, greens, rhubarb pie, pecan pie, etc.

There are other regional cuisines equally distinctive and while
restaurants seem to lack the quality of service of the finest Michelin
*** establishments, the level of the creativity of the top chefs is
very competitive.
>
>By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
>in fact.

Beyond the detailed discussion above and below regarding roast beef,
those best loved Brit recipes would be?
>
>I'd never claim that English cuisine is one of the world's top cuisines,
>though I would put in on a par with or ahead of several other European
>countries. What would be interesting, IMO would be to discuss at what point
>a dish becomes legitmately part of a nation's cuisine. For example, "Spag
>Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
>Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
>dishes that are becoming fast favourites.

And, let me note that Indian cuisine in major British cities is alone
worth the trip .
>
>I call it a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
>English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).
>
>To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
>on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
>animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
>Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should
>ideally be slaughtered near the farm where it lived, to avoid stress
>chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
>meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.

Nebraska in the US offers some excellent examples of grass fed beef in
a region with enough grass to pull it off properly.
>
>The meat should be quartered and then hung at least two weeks, though three
>weeks would be better. It should then be butchered in such a way that the
>cut to be roast should have both bone and its own covering fat. Sirloin and
>Ribs are both classic roasting cuts, and they should both have meat that is
>well marbled with fat, if the roast is to be excellent. It's no good
>roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
>Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
>that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.

Dunno where you draw the assumption that Americans would choose round
or blade or even chuck for preparation of a roast beef. The classic is
a standing rib roast and a "first cut" (about ribs 9-13) from prime
beef is the standard.
>
>Real roasting is done on a spit in front of a bright open fire. I recommend
>trying it at least once in your life, as it's an order better than the roast
>we all know, which is actually baking. The meat should never be salted
>before roasting as this has a tendancy to prevent the meat browning
>properly. The meat should be allowed to warm to room temperature after being
>seasoned (loads of pepper and dry mustard powder plus thyme).
>
>The meat should be roast in an extremely hot oven (225 or so) for a short
>time, from 20 mins to 40 mins per kg depending upon how it's liked, though
>over cooked roast beef is an abomination. It is normal to roast beef very
>rare at the centre, and carve the outside slices for those who prefer their
>meat (over) cooked. After 10-15 mins in the oven, the meat can be removed
>briefly, basted and then salted. Basting should be frequent - to imitate the
>continual basting of the true rotating open fire spit roast.
>
>English Roast Beef is traditionally served with roast potatoes, yorkshire
>pudding, horseradish sauce, gravy and at least two other vegetables
>depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
>from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
>Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
>isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.

Great English wines all. Ooopps.
>
>In practice, in the majority of British domestic kitchens, the beef is too
>young, factory farmed, underhung, and from an inappropriate (cheaper) cut.
>The intrinsic quality that roasting brings out simply isn't there. I might
>add, that this is also the case in France, where - so far - I've never found
>a single example of roast beef half as good as that served even in the
>current dumbed down domestic version.
>
>The situation in the majority of small restaurants is considerably worse.
>Most will give up when faced with the difficulty of producing a perfectly
>roast cut, perfectly served at the moment the diners require it. They cook
>it in advance and flash reheat it at the moment of service. The vegetables
>equally will be reheated, and the essential accompanying gravy etc will
>themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.

I think you've just stated the case against British cuisine quite
nicely.
>
>But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
>in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
>food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

Dunno what "restaurant chains" you were exposed to during your visits
to the States, but I haven't seen, nor would I expect to see, Chowder
in a sit-down chain in about 40 of the 50 States. In fact, the only
conditions under which I could envision a reasonable "chowder" would
be in New England (or alternatively the "Manhattan" version served
on-scene.) I suspect you could get a respectable chowder in the
Pacific NW coastal cities as well.
>
>Leaving roasting aside, although it IS the quntessentially british way of
>cooking, especially of game birds, there are many other fine traditional
>English dishes which stand comparison with anything from Europe.
>
>Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)

An acquired taste. Can be sublime. Usually a challenge to ingest.

>Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies

Similar dependence on organ foods.

>Baked or boiled Gammon or bacon

Ahh, nothing like a little bit of boiled bacon to start the day.

>Spiced beef (silverside)
>Raised pies.

Krispy Kremes anybody?

>Pigeon pie
>Venison casseroles

Why ruin a good chunk of deer by over-cooking en casserole?

>Jugged Hare.
>Oxtail, tomato, peascot, jerusalem and broad bean soups. (and many others)

Now, we a bit of chile added and maybe the beans being pintos, we're
starting to get somewhere.

>Finnan haddock, smoked salmon, kedgeree, fish pie. Kipper paste, potted
>shrimps, crabs and salmon. Fresh scotch wild salmon poached in cider (US
>hard cider).

Try some Copper River Salmon in the US next time you visit, if it's in
the late spring/early summer. Makes your Scotch wild, taste like
canned tuna.
>
>Some of the world's finest cheeses come from the UK, think of a top class
>Stilton or Cheddar (though there are many others).

Indeed!
>
>And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
>England's supremacy.

They died during the Revolution I believe. Victims of the Reign of
Terror.
>
>Apple pie, (and pear pie) Double crust fruit pies, cobblers, crumbles,
>steamed and sponge puddings, custards, fools, syllabubs, trifles. There are
>dozens of traditional british puddings that are a true delight when well
>made.

Some of those are wonderful, but a steamed pud takes an incredible
amount of port to be upgraded to delightful.
>
>The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
>fine English cuisine, but to find it.

You do keep it hidden well. Traditional British reserve, I guess.

> Nearly all traditional English food is
>extraordinarily badly adapted to serving in restaurants, and there are very
>few restaurants indeed where it is done. What CAN be found, ever
>increasingly, are examples of modern english fine cooking, where traditional
>dishes or ingredients are recreated in a way that IS capable of being served
>well in a modern restaurant. But these restaurants are extremely expensive,
>on the whole. Nevertheless the cuisine exists, and competes on equal terms
>with anything from anywhere else in the world.
>
>I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
>American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).

The previously mentioned fried chicken (pan, roast, deep, battered or
basted), chop suey (although admittedly insipid in most iterations),
pecan pie, catfish & hushpuppies, and the entire range of either
Tex-Mex or SW cuisine (they are distinctly different.)

Then we can add BBQ (dry or wet), chili (vice chile), sugar-cured ham
(not air dried), red-eye gravy, the increasingly endangered hand-made
hamburger, the entire panoply of the NY deli, the menu of the average
American mom/pop truck stop--particularly the "chicken-fried steak"
when done properly, loads of fresh fish dishes from the East and West
coastal regions, the traditional American turkey dinner, .....

Ahh, but I've kidded, teased and tweaked you enough.

Seriously, food is not a zero-sum game. Simply because one gives
credit to a national cuisine does not mean that another is inferior in
any way. It still must be noted, however, that perception often comes
very close to equaling reality. And, the perception of most folks is
that British cuisine is heavily dependent upon the immigrant ethnic
cooking of the former colonies and sadly lacking in the Anglo-Saxon
basics.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Salut/Hi Ed Rasimus,

le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:08:41 -0600, tu disais/you said:-

>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare >
>wrote:

>Ian offers an excellent treatise on the proper roasting of beef while
>simultaneously stereotyping and occasionally bordering on offending
>some of his American friends.

If I used stereotypes, I'm truly sorry, I had no intention of doing so.
Forgive me. However, I do stand by what I sald about chowder, which I had in
a number of restaurant chains until I learnt that it was uniformly awful. I
admit to being a slow learner, but I do so love it, that I kept hoping to
find one that wasn't over salted, heavily thickened either with cornflour or
with modified starch, and under endowed with cream and clams.

>I've got to ask where else in the world but the US can one find
>quality, flavorful, economical, and untainted beef so readily
>available?

Venezuela. The best beef I've ever had was there. But that's not really the
point. I was referring to the availability of good beef for roasting in the
UK.

>My exposure to English wine (is that an oxymoron or merely a
>possessive phrase?)

There is some - a tiny amount - and some of it is nearly drinkable. But a
restaurant isn't going to stock much of it for obvious reasons.

>>>What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists
>>>"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for
>>>recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>>
>>That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the cuisine.
>
>Does the criticism involve the crediting of the Brits or is the
>identification of the QL and CM as British recipes?

The latter. Mind you, that's nearly as bad a solecism as that committed by a
recent British immigrant here who put Paella into his english language book
on correzian cooking. He also managed to make a grammatical error in the
title (sourgrapeish s******).

>Grilled ham and cheese seems a pretty generic dish to attribute to ANY national
>cuisine.

No Ed, in your entirely laudable wish to tease me, don't make silly
gastronomic mistakes. Croque monsieur is a slice of ham and a slice of
gruyère, (not random cheese) in a sandwich, which is then fried - not
grilled. Because the USA invented the sandwich toaster, one might just as
well accuse your country of inventing the dish, which is ideally adapted to
the sandwich maker.

Actually, there is a long and honourable tradition in the UK of a bacon and
agg pie, which is quite close to the Quiche Lorraine. But my guess would be
that - as in the case of Clafoutis and Toad in the Hole - this is a
coincidence rather than borrowing.

> I can only note that most Americans would identify pizza as Italian.

Which, given the dish you call pizza, would be something less than true. The
Italian original bears little relationship to the products of Pizza Hut,
Pizza express, and the other fast food chains. Sure there's some kind of
crust underneath and some kind of topping, often with tomato, above. I have
to confess to greatly preferring American pizza, by the way, to the
original, which I find truly boring.

> Chowder is a distinctly regional dish and seldom seen in most of the states except in cans.

You make my point. An unsuspecting foreigner, arriving in the States, and
asking for and receiving a chowder, "knowing it to be an american
speciality", would be served a disagreeable travesty. Do that with several
of the other well known "american dishes", and you can understand how they
will leave with a poor impression of American food, while you (and I, having
eaten better, too) will defend it as being delicious as a cuisine.

> Fruit pie of any can is multi-national

Nope, it's English. The pie - generic - is an English invention.

> and meatloaf is so generic as to defy identification with a cuisine.

Don't agree at all. Although polpettone exists in Italian cuisine, it bears
very little relationship to meatloaf, as I've seen them. I don't know of a
Spanish dish of the type, nor of one in the UK or Ireland. That leaves
Germany and Poland (I'm thinking of source countries for mass USian
immigration), whose cuisines have much in common. And lo and behold there
are two dishes "Fashiert" which I used to have in my childhood, and which is
translated literally as "minced" and "Falsches Hase" - false hare. Both of
these are similar, Germanic and I'd claim them to be obvious forebears of
your Meatloaf.

>Now, to be technically correct, we could cite "chop suey" as an American creation.

Indeed.

>But, I'd rather point to the cooking of the great Southwest with its Mexican and Native American inspired dishes.

I have the greatest admiration for Mexican cooking. Although in the 2 months
we were there, we only touched the surface of the possibilities, I was
amazed by its diversity and subtlety and above all by its breadth. Of all
the cuisines I've had in the Americas, it was by far and away the most
interesting.

What I'm saying, and with no intention of demeaning or diminishing, is that
dishes that are commonly thought of as being "American" often owe their
origins to those of the immigrants who populated the USA and made it what it
is today. I don't think a dish needs to have been originally created in the
Americas to be legitimately considered to be American. It is sufficient for
it to be generally adopted, and significantly changed.

>>By those criteria, some of the best loved "American" favourites are British
>>in fact.
>
>those best loved Brit recipes would be?

Apple Pie, roast beef, bacon generally, beef casseroles. Lemon meringue pie
and its variants, jello (not a thing to be particularly proud of,
admittedly) Muffins, most american cakes, spring instantly to mind, but
there are dozens. However, I think we're digressing here.

>>Bol" is on the menu in many an entirely british household. Not a very good
>>Spaghetti Bolognese, certainly. Similarly, there are many thai influenced
>>dishes that are becoming fast favourites.
>
>And, let me note that Indian cuisine in major British cities is alone
>worth the trip .

Agreed, though at the moment I think it's too early to say that __indian
restaurant food__ is yet British. It will become it in time, I suspect,
rather as dishes like kedgeree (kitchiri bhoona) and mulligatawnee (muligoo
tunni) have become genuinely british - and transformed almost out of
recognition in the process.

One of the most truly awful british dishes is "Curry". As I used to have it
as a schoolboy, it was a badly prepared beef stew, always made with the
nastiest, fattiest, most gristly bits of meat. Into this unspeakable brew
were thrown raisins (with seeds, naturally) and apples. Then at the last
minute they would liberally "season" the dish with "curry powder". This was
of dreadful quality, and because of the way in which it was used, was
uncooked. It gave the finished (as bad a perversion of the word as can be
imagined) dish a nasty tasting grittiness that I remember in stomach heaving
clarity 50 years later. I almost had to be DRAGGED to eat at Veereswamy's
(Almost the only Indian Restaurant in London at the time) back in around
1960, so badly had my experiences traumatised me. I can remember to this day
my utter astonishment and delight. Though with what I know now about Indian
cooking, I'd probably judge it as pretty mediocre nowadays.

>>I call Roast Beef a defining dish, because it both demonstrates the strengths of
>>English cooking (at its best) and its weakness (at its worst).

>>chemicals in its blood. These criteria alone make it extremely hard to find
>>meat that is good enough to make a roast worthy of the traditions.
>
>Nebraska in the US offers some excellent examples of grass fed beef in
>a region with enough grass to pull it off properly.

I WAS referring to the availability of such meat in the UK.

>>roasting the very lean grilling cuts, or - worse the pot roasting cuts (US
>>Top round, bottom round, blade steak) as is so often done. The smallest cut
>>that can be roasted successfully will weigh from 2-3 kg.
>
>Dunno where you draw the assumption that Americans would choose round
>or blade or even chuck for preparation of a roast beef.

I wasn't talking about Americans. I was talking about _English Cuisine_. I
used american names for cuts, in deference to the language spoken by the
majority of readers here.

>>depending upon the season. It is best accompanied by a top class burgundy
>>from the Dijon end of the Cote de Nuits. Clos St Jacques, or, better, a
>>Chambertin from a good traditionalist grower. But a 20 year old Hermitage
>>isn't bad with it either. There is no better meal in the world.
>
>Great English wines all. Ooopps.

All wines well known in the UK and very much more part of British culture
than they are of American culture, where, if we were to descend to your
level of snidity, the height of food/drink matching excellence for much of
the last century seems to have been sweetened iced tea and/or coke with
chicken fried steak.

>>In practice,

[snip]

>>themselves be travesties. It is hard to imagine anything much nastier.
>
>I think you've just stated the case against British cuisine quite
>nicely.

No I haven't. Read on...

>>But just as one should not judge American food by the glop served as Chowder
>>in every restaurant chain in the States, so one should not judge English
>>food by the travesty served in the average corner caff either.

There are two separate issues. What dishes _should_ be like, and what you
get in restaurants. I defend British cuisine and American cuisine elsewhere
on the basis of what it is capable of, not on the basis of the muck that is
often served up to the public in most places.

>>Steak and ?? Pie and pudding (?? can be kidney, mushrooms or oysters)
>
>An acquired taste. Can be sublime. Usually a challenge to ingest.

Exactly, "can be sublime". The cuisine is excellent, its execution is all
too often awful.

>>Chicken, cottage and shepherd's pies
>Similar dependence on organ foods.

Absolutely wrong. No offal in any of these. The major ingredient in Cottage
pie is minced beef, and in Shepherd's pie it's minced lamb or mutton. I've
never seen a recipe that calls for any offal, though one could perfectly
well mince up some heart to add complexity of flavours.

>>Spiced beef (silverside)
>>Raised pies.
>
>Krispy Kremes anybody?

Whatever are these?

>>Pigeon pie
>>Venison casseroles

>Why ruin a good chunk of deer by over-cooking en casserole?

When it's your age, Ed, it's about the only way to make it palatable!


>>And when it comes to desserts, even top french chefs have always admitted
>>England's supremacy.
>
>They died during the Revolution I believe. Victims of the Reign of
>Terror.

Nope, most escaped to the UK and had a huge influence on (some would say
"perverted") British cooking in their day and ever since.


>Some of those are wonderful, but a steamed pud takes an incredible
>amount of port to be upgraded to delightful.

Nonsense. Try a sussex pond pudding, or little sticky toffee puddings, or
fair knights of windsor.

>>The problem facing the average visitor to the UK, is not that there is a
>>fine English cuisine, but to find it.
>
>You do keep it hidden well.

Not really "hidden" as inadapted to restaurant cooking.


>>I'm tempted to ask you, Dimitri to list half as many excellent truly
>>American dishes. (Not counting those originating in the UK).
>
>The previously mentioned fried chicken (pan, roast, deep, battered or
>basted),

Agreed. Limited, but excellent.

>pecan pie,

Agreed, though far too sweet in 95% of cases. Would you like the recipe I
use, which isn't too sweet and which I often serve here? (I should also add
that Pecan pie has a close British homologue "Walnut pie").

>Tex-Mex or SW cuisine (they are distinctly different.)

Indeed they are and both truly excellent, as long as they're not being used
as a measure of the size of your manhood by the number of jalapenos, New
Mexico and Red Savinas used to cook it and the volume of "Texas Pete",
"Ring of Fire", or "Dave's Insanity" sauces with which it's doused.

You could also have mentioned Cajun and Creole cuisines, which are also
excellent.

>Seriously, food is not a zero-sum game. Simply because one gives
>credit to a national cuisine does not mean that another is inferior in
>any way.

There we are in 100% agreement. One of the things that really drives me mad,
is the propensity of the French to do just that.

> It still must be noted, however, that perception often comes very close to equaling reality.

Grin... I'd hate to see american food being judged in that way!

> And, the perception of most folks is that British cuisine is heavily dependent upon the immigrant ethnic
>cooking of the former colonies and sadly lacking in the Anglo-Saxon basics.

And that perception is - as I've said - based on what was available in most
restaurants in the UK since the 1st world war. The quality of restaurant
cuisine in the UK has changed dramatically in the last 15 or 20 years, Ed.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Greetings Ian;.

You reveal the source of your troubles with North American chowder sampling
by the use of one word; CHAIN.

Sweet loving Jeehover man, real, quality chowders are only to be found in
small Mom and Pop joints one has serious misgivings going into. Year before
last Margaret and I spent 11 days touring the Canadian maritimes, revisiting
old haunts and mostly avoiding cities like the plague and ate chowders (fish
and/or clam) every day in search of the best one. Most chowders were at
least very good, a few were scrumptious and one, just one,a fish chowder
served in a little "Family" joint on the outskirts of Annapolis Royal was
absolutely to die for.

Why do my fondest memories always somehow revolve around the food?
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address


However, I do stand by what I sald about chowder, which I had in
> a number of restaurant chains until I learnt that it was uniformly awful.
I
> admit to being a slow learner, but I do so love it, that I kept hoping to
> find one that wasn't over salted, heavily thickened either with cornflour
or
> with modified starch, and under endowed with cream and clams.
>

Salut/Hi Chuck Reid,

le/on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:30:37 -0400, tu disais/you said:-

>Greetings Ian;.
>
>You reveal the source of your troubles with North American chowder sampling
>by the use of one word; CHAIN.

I think you should read my comments in the context of the discussion. While
I lived in hope that I might be served a decent chowder, this wasn't the
real thrust of my comment. What I was trying to explain to Ed, is that the
average moderately informed foreigner, arriving in the USA and seeking "good
american food" might well order clam chowder in various places throughout
the USA and never get anything even nearly good. And they could well depart
your shores with their prejudices regarding the poor quality of food in the
USA healthily reinforced. But you, and Ed, and I for that matter, having had
really good american food can defend the cuisine per se while at the same
time admitting that the experience of the average visitor might be bad.

And if you admit that this is true in the USA, then I think you ought
perhaps to allow me to say the same for the UK.

>Why do my fondest memories always somehow revolve around the food?

Well, I guess it was down to breast feeding. Either you were, or you
weren't. Or perhaps you were only sometimes. It clearly made you orally
obsessed!!

(GDR- vfafiad)

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:26:33 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Ed Rasimus,

Ian,

Let me thank you for the opportunity to have a delightful interchange
in which we each got to tease each other a bit, educated each other a
bit and inject a level of maturity increasingly seldom encountered in
Usenet these days.

And, only one response to your extensive post:

Regarding the deer being my age and requiring prep "en
casserole"--being only familiar with "dog years" I can't begin to
envision the hooved ungulate approaching anywhere near my level of
"maturity". I'm fortunate enough to live in state blessed with game
and to have an excellent place in which to hunt. The result is young
venison in the freezer every year for the last twelve, and an elk
about one out of three. Typically doe deer and cow elk, about three
years old. You'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from the finest
loin of beef or veal.

Cheers, and thanks.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ian Hoare wrote:
> Salut/Hi D. Gerasimatos,
>
> le/on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC), tu disais/you
> said:-
>
>> In article >,
>> Ian Hoare > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the
>>>> difference?
>>>
>>> You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these
>>> 14 chosen
>>> restaurants are from all nationalities except british?
>
>> I am.
>
> Then you're wrong.
>
>> I will also posit that the wine served is also not British.
>
> Most of the wine served will be from outside the UK,
> certainly. Not
> that that that would be relevant to the intrinsic quality of
> British
> food OR English wine.
>
>
>> What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British
>> recipes lists
>> "Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the
>> British
>> for recognizing good food when they see it, though.
>
> That's a good reason to criticise your cookbook, not the
> cuisine.
>
> In fact it is extremely hard to say where one cuisine starts
> and
> another ends.
>
>

Fascinating discussion Ian! You made me hungry just reading it
tho' I've never had spit-roasted beef. Your mention of apple pie
reminds me that the common New England accompaniment of
Cheddar-type cheese is also quite usual in Yorkshire.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

[snip eloquent defense]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:28:34 +0200, Ian Hoare > said:

] To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up
] on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an
] animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as
] Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should

Or, of course, genisse Normande. Now I know what to serve when you and
Jacquie come to dinner on your next trip north! One of our all time
favorites. With this caveat: The beef should be cooked properly _in_ the
yorkshire, so the fat and jiuces add all that great flavor.

Although I agree in principle about the salt, I find that if the oven is really
very hot one can use a crust of wet gray guerande salt without bleeding
away the juices.

Also, braised sprouts and chestnuts are a necessary accompaniment,
and perhaps to lighten the whole thing that completely american dish,
Waldorf Salade, in this case 'au Grandpere' because he prefered the
whole thing molded up in aspic, and so we've always done this variation.

I think I can provide the Hermitage, but there are so many options. A
nice earthy Pessac, an older CdP... heck even a powerful old Chinon
is a great match! (And of course, with cold leftovers the next day.)
This is to my mind one of the most wine friendly of meals, so long
as you don't throw too much sweet fruit juice at it.

-E
--
Emery Davis
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