Tonight I was out to dinner in Charlotte to a Pub Steakhouse place called
Manzettis. There was a wine bottle on the table called Serengeti Shira-z
from South Africa.

I somehow thought that Shiraz was Syrah from Austrailia. Therefore to see
it from South Africa I thought was strange.

dick

From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
France? California? Long Island?

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:56:57 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>Tonight I was out to dinner in Charlotte to a Pub Steakhouse place called
>Manzettis. There was a wine bottle on the table called Serengeti Shira-z
>from South Africa.
>
>I somehow thought that Shiraz was Syrah from Austrailia. Therefore to see
>it from South Africa I thought was strange.
>
>dick
>

I would have assumed France. But not certain. Could have been California.
Does not really matter.

I would have assumed Shiraz was from Austrailia just like Champagne is from
France, Chablix =France.

Florida OJ = Florida.

What you are saying is we can get Florida OJ from Chili, Italian tomatoes
from Canada, Parma Ham=Canada.

Does not make sense to me.




"gerald" > wrote in message
news
> From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
> France? California? Long Island?
>
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:56:57 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> > wrote:
>
>>Tonight I was out to dinner in Charlotte to a Pub Steakhouse place called
>>Manzettis. There was a wine bottle on the table called Serengeti Shira-z
>>from South Africa.
>>
>>I somehow thought that Shiraz was Syrah from Austrailia. Therefore to see
>>it from South Africa I thought was strange.
>>
>>dick
>>
>

> What you are saying is we can get Florida OJ from Chili, Italian tomatoes
> from Canada, Parma Ham=Canada.
>
Well, reasonable facsimiles thereof at any rate. ;>))

> Does not make sense to me.
>

Well unlike all the other examples you quote Richard, Shiraz is not a
geographical name from Australia. The word could be said to have a
Persian clang, Shiraz being a large city in ancient Persia/ today's
Iran.

Lore has it that the grape was brought by returning crusaders from the
Orient to the Rh=F4ne valley, where it took the spelling of Syrah, being
not too far from a francophilic pronunciation of the Persian Shiraz
(the i in Persian being pronounced more as an e would be in the
European languages and the y in French not at all like "my" or "thy" in
English). This is most likely false, but makes for a nice story.
Certain documentation suggests that it was brought to Australia from
France in the 19th century under the spelling Scyras, which became
Shiraz either as an articulative simplification or due to the romantic
era infatuation with the Orient.

I have seen, bought, tasted Shiraz at various occassions from South
African (never had a chance to taste a truly impressive one
unfortunately) and even from Chile and the US quite naturally, without
wondering why they have chosen the name Shiraz and not Syrah. But
coming to think of it, this may just be an attempt to position
themselves distinctly from European products, or just to piggyback on
the reputation built by the Australians.

Cheers

In article .com>, tb
says...
>
>Well unlike all the other examples you quote Richard, Shiraz is not a
>geographical name from Australia. The word could be said to have a
>Persian clang, Shiraz being a large city in ancient Persia/ today's
>Iran.
>
>Lore has it that the grape was brought by returning crusaders from the
>Orient to the Rh=F4ne valley, where it took the spelling of Syrah, being
>not too far from a francophilic pronunciation of the Persian Shiraz
>(the i in Persian being pronounced more as an e would be in the
>European languages and the y in French not at all like "my" or "thy" in
>English). This is most likely false, but makes for a nice story.
>Certain documentation suggests that it was brought to Australia from
>France in the 19th century under the spelling Scyras, which became
>Shiraz either as an articulative simplification or due to the romantic
>era infatuation with the Orient.
>
>I have seen, bought, tasted Shiraz at various occassions from South
>African (never had a chance to taste a truly impressive one
>unfortunately) and even from Chile and the US quite naturally, without
>wondering why they have chosen the name Shiraz and not Syrah. But
>coming to think of it, this may just be an attempt to position
>themselves distinctly from European products, or just to piggyback on
>the reputation built by the Australians.
>
>Cheers

Good piece, TB. When I first encountered "Shiraz" outside OZ, I too was
puzzled. It was Voss Napa Shiraz (quite good with the fare it was paired with
too), so I questioned the sommelier. He was at a loss, as to the naming
convention, and brought the bottle over for me to examine. He was 100%
correct, as to the naming on the bottle. A bit of research yielded that the
winery owner's wife was from OZ, so he chose that convention to name his Syrah
offering - in honor of her heritage. As to the SA offerings, I think you are
probably correct, as to why they chose to call it Shiraz. As the SA wine
market gets "back on its feet," so to speak, they are looking for marketing
hooks, and Shiraz is certainly very popular, and familiar in much of the world
market. The UK wine lists that I have encountered are fairly heavy in OZ
Shiraz, though one sees a lot of Rhone offerings, as well. Unlike the US wine
lists, when geographical names are used, like Hermitage, the grape varietal(s)
are usually not stated along with the vintage, producer, etc. Some Cape
version of a Madison Ave marketing person, said, "hey, the world now knows
Aussie Shiraz, let's call our Syrah offering Shiraz too!"

Hunt

In article .com>, tb
says...
[SNIP]
>I have seen, bought, tasted Shiraz at various occassions from South
>African (never had a chance to taste a truly impressive one
>unfortunately) and even from Chile and the US quite naturally, without
>wondering why they have chosen the name Shiraz and not Syrah. But
>coming to think of it, this may just be an attempt to position
>themselves distinctly from European products, or just to piggyback on
>the reputation built by the Australians.
>
>Cheers

TB,

Another thought just hit me (after I pressed Send for my last reply). There
are several co-op, as in cooperations, between SA/OZ wineries. One recent
encounter was with a "Cape" wine, that was a product of the company's OZ
operation. Maybe the wine is a product of SA, but is produced by an OZ, or
part-OZ, winery.

Hunt

TB wrote:

<SNIP useful info>

> I have seen, bought, tasted Shiraz at various occassions from South
> African (never had a chance to taste a truly impressive one
> unfortunately) and even from Chile and the US quite naturally, without
> wondering why they have chosen the name Shiraz and not Syrah. But
> coming to think of it, this may just be an attempt to position
> themselves distinctly from European products, or just to piggyback on
> the reputation built by the Australians.

I think that this latter is probably the driving force. It's fair to
say, IMO, that in the American marketplace at least Shiraz is now a more
familiar name to consumers than Syrah is. Purists will still call it
Syrah, but more than a few CA wineries have begun to label it Shiraz.

Mark Lipton

Well, if you can't beat them...copy them. Guess its a form of flattery to
some...or lack of creativity for most.

Sad


"Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> In article .com>, tb
> says...
>>
>>Well unlike all the other examples you quote Richard, Shiraz is not a
>>geographical name from Australia. The word could be said to have a
>>Persian clang, Shiraz being a large city in ancient Persia/ today's
>>Iran.
>>
>>Lore has it that the grape was brought by returning crusaders from the
>>Orient to the Rh=F4ne valley, where it took the spelling of Syrah, being
>>not too far from a francophilic pronunciation of the Persian Shiraz
>>(the i in Persian being pronounced more as an e would be in the
>>European languages and the y in French not at all like "my" or "thy" in
>>English). This is most likely false, but makes for a nice story.
>>Certain documentation suggests that it was brought to Australia from
>>France in the 19th century under the spelling Scyras, which became
>>Shiraz either as an articulative simplification or due to the romantic
>>era infatuation with the Orient.
>>
>>I have seen, bought, tasted Shiraz at various occassions from South
>>African (never had a chance to taste a truly impressive one
>>unfortunately) and even from Chile and the US quite naturally, without
>>wondering why they have chosen the name Shiraz and not Syrah. But
>>coming to think of it, this may just be an attempt to position
>>themselves distinctly from European products, or just to piggyback on
>>the reputation built by the Australians.
>>
>>Cheers
>
> Good piece, TB. When I first encountered "Shiraz" outside OZ, I too was
> puzzled. It was Voss Napa Shiraz (quite good with the fare it was paired
> with
> too), so I questioned the sommelier. He was at a loss, as to the naming
> convention, and brought the bottle over for me to examine. He was 100%
> correct, as to the naming on the bottle. A bit of research yielded that
> the
> winery owner's wife was from OZ, so he chose that convention to name his
> Syrah
> offering - in honor of her heritage. As to the SA offerings, I think you
> are
> probably correct, as to why they chose to call it Shiraz. As the SA wine
> market gets "back on its feet," so to speak, they are looking for
> marketing
> hooks, and Shiraz is certainly very popular, and familiar in much of the
> world
> market. The UK wine lists that I have encountered are fairly heavy in OZ
> Shiraz, though one sees a lot of Rhone offerings, as well. Unlike the US
> wine
> lists, when geographical names are used, like Hermitage, the grape
> varietal(s)
> are usually not stated along with the vintage, producer, etc. Some Cape
> version of a Madison Ave marketing person, said, "hey, the world now knows
> Aussie Shiraz, let's call our Syrah offering Shiraz too!"
>
> Hunt
>

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:52:25 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:17:21 -0400, gerald > wrote:
>
>>From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
>>France? California? Long Island?
>
>Not sure what you mean.
>

What I mean is that Shiraz is the Syrah grape in South Africa. Was
brought there by the Huguenots somewhere around 1700. Was called
Shiraz then, and is now.

At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
France.

Do not know why SA called them Shiraz.

Thanks. For som reason I assumed Shiraz was of Austrailia.


"gerald" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:52:25 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:17:21 -0400, gerald > wrote:
>>
>>>From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
>>>France? California? Long Island?
>>
>>Not sure what you mean.
>>
>
> What I mean is that Shiraz is the Syrah grape in South Africa. Was
> brought there by the Huguenots somewhere around 1700. Was called
> Shiraz then, and is now.
>
> At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
> cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
> them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
> France.
>
> Do not know why SA called them Shiraz.

In article >,
says...
>
>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:52:25 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:17:21 -0400, gerald > wrote:
>>
>>>From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
>>>France? California? Long Island?
>>
>>Not sure what you mean.
>>
>
>What I mean is that Shiraz is the Syrah grape in South Africa. Was
>brought there by the Huguenots somewhere around 1700. Was called
>Shiraz then, and is now.
>
>At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
>cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
>them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
>France.
>
>Do not know why SA called them Shiraz.

Gerald,

Thanks for that info. I had not heard this put forth before - only the
possible tie to Iran, re the naming.

Appreciated,
Hunt

If you are in Charlotte much, you might want to try LaTorre's it is in
uptown Charlotte near the IJL building on the same street I believe as the
Capital Grille. Not sure how much Syrah or Shiraz you might see, but you
most definitely will find some wonderful South American wines and cuisine.

Haven't been in a year, work has moved me away :-(


"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Tonight I was out to dinner in Charlotte to a Pub Steakhouse place called
> Manzettis. There was a wine bottle on the table called Serengeti Shira-z
> from South Africa.
>
> I somehow thought that Shiraz was Syrah from Austrailia. Therefore to see
> it from South Africa I thought was strange.
>
> dick
>

My 2 cents to this: I was in Charlotte in the first week of January
this year for one evening. I ate at Zink on the North Tryon Street (not
too far from the big Bank buildings - Wachovia, Bank of America) and
had some really well-made fish (Sea Bream) with a wunderbar Russian
River Cabernet Sauvignon. My colleagues were very happy with their
steaks as well. The service was friendly though I had trouble to
understand the accents ;-)

Flying from Frankfurt, the best part for me was to sit in the patio in
early January for dinner without thick sweaters or jackets!

Cheers

in article , gerald at
wrote on 6/7/05 3:29 AM:

> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:52:25 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:17:21 -0400, gerald > wrote:
>>
>>> From where do you think the Aussies got their Shiraz plantings?
>>> France? California? Long Island?
>>
>> Not sure what you mean.
>>
>
> What I mean is that Shiraz is the Syrah grape in South Africa. Was
> brought there by the Huguenots somewhere around 1700. Was called
> Shiraz then, and is now.
>
> At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
> cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
> them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
> France.
>
> Do not know why SA called them Shiraz.
I don't know about that. I think you'll find that Busby, the guy who brought
the first cuttings over from Europe and started the Aussie wine industry,
got most of his cuttings in Europe and actually toured the Rhone in search
of material. It is true that he stopped in Cape Town on the way to Oz, but
so did every ship back then.

Marcello

"Marcello Fabretti" wrote.............
>> At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
>> cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
>> them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
>> France.

> I think you'll find that Busby, the guy who brought
> the first cuttings over from Europe and started the Aussie wine industry,
> got most of his cuttings in Europe and actually toured the Rhone in search
> of material. It is true that he stopped in Cape Town on the way to Oz, but
> so did every ship back then.

Marcello, you are 100% correct - in fact James Busby (1802-1871) really
lived up to his name - he was a real busy bee (sorry!!!)

As a youth he studied viticulture in France before immigrating to Australia
with his parents, where he pioneered grape growing in New South Wales.

He later returned to Europe where he gathered cuttings of some 600 varieties
mainly from France and Spain; successfully growing over 350 at the Sydney
Botanic gardens) - and returned them to Australia where he is now regarded
as the "father of the Australian wine industry."

However, this same James Busby is also accredited with being New Zealand's
first winemaker (1833) after he "saw the light and fled the flies and
bushfires" and jumped the Tasman to Godzone!!!

--

st.helier

in article , st.helier at
wrote on 18/7/05 6:32 AM:

> "Marcello Fabretti" wrote.............
>>> At a later date, the Australians got their original Syrah/Shiraz
>>> cuttings from SA, so they named them what they were where they got
>>> them, which was Shiraz. The OZ Syrah did not come directly from
>>> France.
>
>> I think you'll find that Busby, the guy who brought
>> the first cuttings over from Europe and started the Aussie wine industry,
>> got most of his cuttings in Europe and actually toured the Rhone in search
>> of material. It is true that he stopped in Cape Town on the way to Oz, but
>> so did every ship back then.
>
> Marcello, you are 100% correct - in fact James Busby (1802-1871) really
> lived up to his name - he was a real busy bee (sorry!!!)
>
> As a youth he studied viticulture in France before immigrating to Australia
> with his parents, where he pioneered grape growing in New South Wales.
>
> He later returned to Europe where he gathered cuttings of some 600 varieties
> mainly from France and Spain; successfully growing over 350 at the Sydney
> Botanic gardens) - and returned them to Australia where he is now regarded
> as the "father of the Australian wine industry."
>
> However, this same James Busby is also accredited with being New Zealand's
> first winemaker (1833) after he "saw the light and fled the flies and
> bushfires" and jumped the Tasman to Godzone!!!
>
> --
>
> st.helier
>
>
You couldn't help yourself...

Marcello