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On 10 Aug 2005 17:55:05 -0700, "Dan The Man" > said:
] All of these arguments for and against varietal labeling are ] fascinating. But I do want to make one more point - a beginning wine ] drinker's tastes (and income) will tend to change over time. In other ] words, today's $4 per bottle plonk drinker might (someday) see a ] substantial increase in his/her paycheck. But the habit of shopping by ] varietal will likely be set in concrete by then. In that case, the name ] Chateau Margaux (one of France's most famous) will mean diddly - the ] drinker in question will want to know what is inside. And this person, ] who might now have $104 to spend, will be inclined to look for ] something else. ] Not to put too fine a point on it, but I find the "newbie" concept difficult here. My parents drank wine. I tasted it, and served it, and looked at the labels. Wine is a traditional and familial drink. As an american I was introduced to it in that context, and certainly one could argue that that is true for more of the western world than the US. So, my 8 year old "knows" the difference between Chateauneuf du Pape and Bordeaux, without knowing anything about the cepage really. (Not quite true, as she amuses herself by pompously reading the back labels -- which even in France often list cepage -- at the dinner table.) Why would someone spending $5 on a bottle buy a varietal label over a territorial one, if they know nothing to begin with? Are varietals fundamentally easier to understand, or is that just successful marketing? -E -- Emery Davis You can reply to by removing the well known companies |
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Emery Davis > wrote:
> Why would someone spending $5 on a bottle buy a varietal label > over a territorial one, if they know nothing to begin with? Are > varietals fundamentally easier to understand, or is that just > successful marketing? Go ask growers in Bordeaux, the Côtes-du-Rhône, the Côtes-de-Provence why they want it. *They* want it, and I understand them perfectly well. Just step into a French supermarket and take a look at the shelves and into the shopping carts and you will immediately understand. M. |
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In article >,
Emery Davis > wrote: > [snip!] > >Why would someone spending $5 on a bottle buy a varietal label >over a territorial one, if they know nothing to begin with? Are >varietals fundamentally easier to understand, or is that just >successful marketing? From my own point of view, I think it is much easier to understand, especially when talking about AOCs in which more than a dozen varietals can be grown. Grenache is, for instance, quite different from mourvedre or counoise. Without familiarity with a particular winery the consumer has no way of knowing what varietal is present in the wine. I think it is valuable to know this when browsing, for instance. As it is now, such wines (rightly) are grouped into a 'Rhone' section, but beyond that the consumer just has to hope that the winery decided to list the cepage on the label. Dimitri |
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In article >,
jcoulter > wrote: > >Just one momre time, how does knowing the varietal in Chateauneuf du Pape >tell the average consumer anything? They know that there are a bunch of >grapes, but unless they really know CDP they probably wouldn't know several >of the vareitals listed as to being red or white. Varietal info just isn't >helpful in preview a blended traditional French wine Well, I am an average consumer and it would tell me whether the wine was based on syrah, mourvedre, grenache, or something else. I consider this 'something' and also 'helpful'. Dimitri |
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Not true Michael. There is Marketing that combines Public Relations, Image
analysis etc. I cannot really speak for Europe on this but in the USA the marjority of purchases are planned before the consumer walks into the supermarket. Less than 30% of total purhcases are impulse. Therefore when you think of items you buy most of them are items you have bought many times over. Grew up with, Mom and Dad bought Jiffy peanut butter etc. We are creatures of habit and buy based upon package identification. Therefore appearing in Wine Spectator, Robert Parker Ratings etc are all part of a Advertising, Marketing, and PR campaign for a wine. Here in the USA there were consumers out looking for something called Silver Oak last week. It released 8/1/2005 for the 2001 Alexander Vintage. I bet some of them never had it before but went to buy based upon the image, the cultish following. That is Marketing. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> It marketing and price that is the key issue not the front >> label. > > I don't quite get this sentence, but anyhow: The front label > (together with the price tag) is *THE* *SINGLE* *MARKETING* *TOOL* > when you compete in a supermarket shelf. > > M. |
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Michael;
Could it be that for $5 on a supermarket shelf the only marketing tool that really matters is who has the snazziest looking label? I think the whole listing of cepage issue revolves around that huge pool of middle class drinkers who have some greater or lesser interest in the product and who wish to learn more. The aficionados who have the means, don't need bottle information as their education has/will likely come from reading, reading, reading and talking, talking, talking to others with similar interests and last but certainly not least TASTING, TASTING, TASTING. The cepage information is useful to those of us inhabiting the lands of the somewhat washed. -- Regards Chuck So much wine; So little time! To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > Emery Davis > wrote: > > > Why would someone spending $5 on a bottle buy a varietal label > > over a territorial one, if they know nothing to begin with? Are > > varietals fundamentally easier to understand, or is that just > > successful marketing? > > Go ask growers in Bordeaux, the Côtes-du-Rhône, the > Côtes-de-Provence why they want it. *They* want it, and I > understand them perfectly well. Just step into a French > supermarket and take a look at the shelves and into the shopping > carts and you will immediately understand. > > M. |
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Ian Hoare wrote: > > What I _do_ think is ludicrous is that European legislators seem to need to > be so blessed directive all the time. What isn't obligatory is forbidden, it > seems to me, and I don't think that kind of thinking is good at all. > Now that is the most intelligent statement in this whole thread (because it happens to agree with my position). I don't really feel strongly one way or the other if the grape varieties should be on the label, although I probably lean more toward yes since knowledge is good. If you don't care what grapes are in the bottle, don't read it. What I can't understand it what is to be gained from forbidding the information on the label? I say leave it up to the grower/winemaker. Andy |
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"Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> I cannot really speak for Europe on this but in the USA the > marjority of purchases are planned before the consumer walks > into the supermarket. Less than 30% of total purhcases are > impulse. Maybe this is true for the totality of purchases, but certainly not for wine purchases. In Europe there are some specialized win shops (enoteca, caviste etc.), but the lion's share of wine (well over 60%) is sold in supermarkets. Once again: It's the producers' and botlers' wish to market "Le Sauvignon du Baron Philippe AOC Bordeaux", because of the roaring success of sauvignon, merlot, syrah & co. from Chile, Australia. It's totally childish, imnsho, not to let them label their wine the way they want. But I guess I am repeating myself. M. |
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Michael Pronay > wrote in
: > > Once again: It's the producers' and botlers' wish to market "Le > Sauvignon du Baron Philippe AOC Bordeaux", because of the roaring > success of sauvignon, merlot, syrah & co. from Chile, Australia. > > It's totally childish, imnsho, not to let them label their wine > the way they want. > > But I guess I am repeating myself. > > M. > Oh I hate it when people who have a different opinion than mine are right. You have put it very convincingly, it should be allowed even if it ultimately says nothing about hte qualityies of the wine. Theoretically the little notes about "deep garnet with hints of red fruit and smoky leather with a finish of garrigue and cedar" do that, but then how many people go around tasting garrigue? or cat's pee for that matter. -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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Mike Tommasi > wrote in
: > > Otherwise you end up with all those silly Aussie labels. ;-) > > Seriously, the problems of the appellation system are certainly real, > but the issues are far deeper than the label. > Imagine if there were a law forbidding the use of animals or animal names on wines! No more porpoiseful purple or 4 emus and funeral. Well the 4 emus part is right. -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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Michael, I am 48 years old and some 26 years ago when I had my first glass
of real wine---(not white zin) I did not know what Cabernet Sauvignon was. Or Pinot Noir. It was like a foreign language. Therefore Bordeaux, or Burg was same way. I guess when I realized I liked Bordeaux I read up on what it was and learned academically because I had an interest in finding out what I liked about one wine over another. The name did not matter specifically and I think you are getting to caught up in what make a consumer make a purchase. Consumers buy what they like. Some only buy because of image. Whatever reason they buy if you don't know what Bordeaux is, or what is in a red burg isn't that a marketing issue? Marketing contains promotion and someone has outdone them by stating Cabernet Sauvignon is on the label from Austrailia or Chili in you opinion. Why then was Champaigne name geographically protected for years? Because Champaigne by name of geography described what you got in a bottle. How many people knew which was Blanc d Blanc or Blanc d Noir etc.......did not matter in reality. Dom Perignon to those that liked Dom or Moet and Chandon was all they needed to know.. The power of marketing prevails in Champaigne. What has Bordeaux or Burg producers done other than keep high pricing to promote the advocacy of their terroir. Like...Burg is made of Pinot Noir, but you can't really take the burg out or burgandy because the product does not taste the same. Our soil is calcium rich and ........ The marketing is the answer...not the packaging only. My opinion. "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message ... > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > >> I cannot really speak for Europe on this but in the USA the >> marjority of purchases are planned before the consumer walks >> into the supermarket. Less than 30% of total purhcases are >> impulse. > > Maybe this is true for the totality of purchases, but certainly > not for wine purchases. In Europe there are some specialized win > shops (enoteca, caviste etc.), but the lion's share of wine > (well over 60%) is sold in supermarkets. > > Once again: It's the producers' and botlers' wish to market "Le > Sauvignon du Baron Philippe AOC Bordeaux", because of the roaring > success of sauvignon, merlot, syrah & co. from Chile, Australia. > > It's totally childish, imnsho, not to let them label their wine > the way they want. > > But I guess I am repeating myself. > > M. |
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On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:47:31 +0200, Michael Pronay > said:
] Emery Davis > wrote:=20 ]=20 ] > Why would someone spending $5 on a bottle buy a varietal label=20 ] > over a territorial one, if they know nothing to begin with? Are=20 ] > varietals fundamentally easier to understand, or is that just=20 ] > successful marketing?=20 ]=20 ] Go ask growers in Bordeaux, the C=F4tes-du-Rh=F4ne, the ] C=F4tes-de-Provence why they want it. *They* want it, and I ] understand them perfectly well. Just step into a French ] supermarket and take a look at the shelves and into the shopping ] carts and you will immediately understand.=20 ]=20 Michael, I go into a french supermarket nearly weekly. The wine is grouped by region, and of course 99% of it is French. So I'm not quite sure what you mean. The average french consumer knows that Bordeaux is "good" and Cotes du Rhone is "bad", and has not much of a palate. Every village fete or pot au feu has 2 wines available, Bordeaux and CdR, with no particular distinction for producer, with the former being more expensive regardless of quality. In the last several years there have started to be some very low end bottles listed by cepage only. I contend that the desire (which I also understand and sympathize=20 with, although I think the point regarding blended wines is perfectly valid) to list cepage is a concession to the export trade only. And further in that trade that there is no particular reason to favor labelling by cepage over appellation except that cepage has been more successfully marketed. (This being the case it might indeed make sense to=20 throw in the towel and accept the market's judgement). The AOC system was as you know developed to try and allow the consumer to be able to count on a certain style of wine based on terroir _and_ cepage, so that a consumer will know that a Pomerol is not a St. Em, a Cairanne is not a Rasteau. Yes there is some latitude visavis encepagement, in some cases. But in principal the consumer can pick a wine from an appellation and have a fair idea of what he's getting, without descending into the technical details of producer or cepage. How many restaurants in Paris list wine by appellation _only_? I'll bet thousands. My point to Dan was that there is no particular reason for a newbie to favor varietal labelling to regional. He needs advice, or at least some cultural background on which to base decision. -E --=20 Emery Davis You can reply to by removing the well known companies |
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"Emery Davis" in :
| On 10 Aug 2005 "Dan The Man" said: | | ] All of these arguments for and against varietal labeling are | ] fascinating. But I do want to make one more point - a | ] beginning wine drinker's tastes (and income) will tend to | ] change over time. In other words, today's $4 per bottle | ] plonk drinker might (someday) see a substantial increase | ] in his/her paycheck. But the habit of shopping by varietal | ] will likely be set in concrete by then. In that case, the name | ] Chateau Margaux (one of France's most famous) will mean | ] diddly - the drinker in question will want to know what is | ] inside. And this person, who might now have $104 to spend, | ] will be inclined to look for something else. | | Not to put too fine a point on it, but I find the "newbie" | concept difficult here. My parents drank wine. I tasted it, and | served it, and looked at the labels. Wine is a traditional and | familial drink. Agreed Emery. You appreciate that many in the US didn't grow up seeing wine in context like that, wherefrom emerges a particular US argument on this diverse issue, visible on this forum and elsewhere. (Some years ago I heard a report that US people on the Wine Spectator web site were calling for wines in other countries to be re-labeled in terms familiar to them. The US wine enthusiasts that forwarded this information thought it was a novelty, and bizarre.) It's indeed a different side of the issue than what M. Prónay is discussing. Arguments like the "| ]" above seem to me tantamount to arguing to reduce the effort for wine-ignorant nouveaux-riches to identify and buy up excellent wines. (As if the de-facto effect of 100-point scales did do this sufficiently). This in the interest of the rest of us wine consumers??? The opposite approach I'll summarize as a variation of a 1960s US maxim. Knowledge will get you wines with no money, better than money will get you wines with no knowledge. Any newbie (for less than the cost of a bottle of overmarketed corporate-concept mediocre wine) can begin reading about the subject from various insightful writers, and getting much more information and context than from TV ads or shelf talkers. I've advocated examples, to anyone who would listen, for some time. (Including here, from the early 1980s.) |
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Max,
If French vintners (or the government) want to keep the existing labels, fine with me. But these producers will be at a disadvantage if they want to land new customers here in America (emphasis on NEW - we all had to start somewhere). That's why they would be smart, from a marketing standpoint, to try labels with the varietal listed for their exported produce. What they do for their produce sold domestically, I don't really care. And experts would be free to ignore such labels. Dan-O (THIS has been a lively discussion!) Max Hauser wrote: > "Emery Davis" in : > | On 10 Aug 2005 "Dan The Man" said: > | > | ] All of these arguments for and against varietal labeling are > | ] fascinating. But I do want to make one more point - a > | ] beginning wine drinker's tastes (and income) will tend to > | ] change over time. In other words, today's $4 per bottle > | ] plonk drinker might (someday) see a substantial increase > | ] in his/her paycheck. But the habit of shopping by varietal > | ] will likely be set in concrete by then. In that case, the name > | ] Chateau Margaux (one of France's most famous) will mean > | ] diddly - the drinker in question will want to know what is > | ] inside. And this person, who might now have $104 to spend, > | ] will be inclined to look for something else. > | > | Not to put too fine a point on it, but I find the "newbie" > | concept difficult here. My parents drank wine. I tasted it, and > | served it, and looked at the labels. Wine is a traditional and > | familial drink. > > Agreed Emery. You appreciate that many in the US didn't grow up seeing w= ine > in context like that, wherefrom emerges a particular US argument on this > diverse issue, visible on this forum and elsewhere. (Some years ago I > heard a report that US people on the Wine Spectator web site were calling > for wines in other countries to be re-labeled in terms familiar to them. > The US wine enthusiasts that forwarded this information thought it was a > novelty, and bizarre.) It's indeed a different side of the issue than wh= at > M. Pr=F3nay is discussing. > > Arguments like the "| ]" above seem to me tantamount to arguing to reduce > the effort for wine-ignorant nouveaux-riches to identify and buy up > excellent wines. (As if the de-facto effect of 100-point scales did do t= his > sufficiently). This in the interest of the rest of us wine consumers??? > > The opposite approach I'll summarize as a variation of a 1960s US maxim. > Knowledge will get you wines with no money, better than money will get you > wines with no knowledge. Any newbie (for less than the cost of a bottle = of > overmarketed corporate-concept mediocre wine) can begin reading about the > subject from various insightful writers, and getting much more information > and context than from TV ads or shelf talkers. I've advocated examples, to > anyone who would listen, for some time. (Including here, from the early > 1980s.) |
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Dan, I live in the USA and 25 years ago had my first Bordeaux. I did not
know what kind of grapes it was...all I new is "I liked it". What would the difference really be if I had never had Cabernet Sauv before either? Bordeaux which is geographical or cab sauv which is varietal. Assume I never had either. Perhaps Americans in USA are more varietal oriented...big deal. I am not an Opus One fan but you know they did not have any problems selling out each year. Nor does Phelps Insignia. You know what big Danno....it does not mention variety on the label either!!!! Dick "Dan The Man" > wrote in message ups.com... Max, If French vintners (or the government) want to keep the existing labels, fine with me. But these producers will be at a disadvantage if they want to land new customers here in America (emphasis on NEW - we all had to start somewhere). That's why they would be smart, from a marketing standpoint, to try labels with the varietal listed for their exported produce. What they do for their produce sold domestically, I don't really care. And experts would be free to ignore such labels. Dan-O (THIS has been a lively discussion!) Max Hauser wrote: > "Emery Davis" in : > | On 10 Aug 2005 "Dan The Man" said: > | > | ] All of these arguments for and against varietal labeling are > | ] fascinating. But I do want to make one more point - a > | ] beginning wine drinker's tastes (and income) will tend to > | ] change over time. In other words, today's $4 per bottle > | ] plonk drinker might (someday) see a substantial increase > | ] in his/her paycheck. But the habit of shopping by varietal > | ] will likely be set in concrete by then. In that case, the name > | ] Chateau Margaux (one of France's most famous) will mean > | ] diddly - the drinker in question will want to know what is > | ] inside. And this person, who might now have $104 to spend, > | ] will be inclined to look for something else. > | > | Not to put too fine a point on it, but I find the "newbie" > | concept difficult here. My parents drank wine. I tasted it, and > | served it, and looked at the labels. Wine is a traditional and > | familial drink. > > Agreed Emery. You appreciate that many in the US didn't grow up seeing > wine > in context like that, wherefrom emerges a particular US argument on this > diverse issue, visible on this forum and elsewhere. (Some years ago I > heard a report that US people on the Wine Spectator web site were calling > for wines in other countries to be re-labeled in terms familiar to them. > The US wine enthusiasts that forwarded this information thought it was a > novelty, and bizarre.) It's indeed a different side of the issue than > what > M. Prónay is discussing. > > Arguments like the "| ]" above seem to me tantamount to arguing to reduce > the effort for wine-ignorant nouveaux-riches to identify and buy up > excellent wines. (As if the de-facto effect of 100-point scales did do > this > sufficiently). This in the interest of the rest of us wine consumers??? > > The opposite approach I'll summarize as a variation of a 1960s US maxim. > Knowledge will get you wines with no money, better than money will get you > wines with no knowledge. Any newbie (for less than the cost of a bottle > of > overmarketed corporate-concept mediocre wine) can begin reading about the > subject from various insightful writers, and getting much more information > and context than from TV ads or shelf talkers. I've advocated examples, to > anyone who would listen, for some time. (Including here, from the early > 1980s.) |
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I think the French stopped putting Pinot Chardonnay on Macon Village bottles
exported to the US 15 years ago--Producersin France are advised to put varietal names on their North American labels for wines sold in supermarkets and big bog stores--Costco, Trader Joes-- Consumers often write down whats on a label when they find a wine they like in a restaurant. Often times they take down one or to words. When I worked retail a customer would come in and say they had "Fattoria" Chianti Classico at Luigi's House of Garlic in Little Italy and want a case. So I call the restaurant and find out what chiantis are on their wine list. Hopefully they have only one with Frattoria on the label. Hopefully the wholesaler still has some in stock and when the customer pays 50% over wholesale cost, they don't realize they paid 200-300% above cost at the restaurant. Odds are that the restaurant bought the wine on a "close-out" and still marked it up based on origonal wholsale price. All this are implicit reasons a restaurant does not want a retail outlet "showing them up". "Richard Neidich" > wrote in message nk.net... > Michael, I am 48 years old and some 26 years ago when I had my first glass > of real wine---(not white zin) I did not know what Cabernet Sauvignon was. > Or Pinot Noir. It was like a foreign language. Therefore Bordeaux, or Burg > was same way. > > I guess when I realized I liked Bordeaux I read up on what it was and > learned academically because I had an interest in finding out what I liked > about one wine over another. > > The name did not matter specifically and I think you are getting to caught > up in what make a consumer make a purchase. Consumers buy what they like. > Some only buy because of image. Whatever reason they buy if you don't know > what Bordeaux is, or what is in a red burg isn't that a marketing issue? > > Marketing contains promotion and someone has outdone them by stating > Cabernet Sauvignon is on the label from Austrailia or Chili in you opinion. > > Why then was Champaigne name geographically protected for years? Because > Champaigne by name of geography described what you got in a bottle. How > many people knew which was Blanc d Blanc or Blanc d Noir etc.......did not > matter in reality. Dom Perignon to those that liked Dom or Moet and Chandon > was all they needed to know.. > > The power of marketing prevails in Champaigne. What has Bordeaux or Burg > producers done other than keep high pricing to promote the advocacy of their > terroir. Like...Burg is made of Pinot Noir, but you can't really take the > burg out or burgandy because the product does not taste the same. Our soil > is calcium rich and ........ > > The marketing is the answer...not the packaging only. > > My opinion. > > > "Michael Pronay" > wrote in message > ... > > "Richard Neidich" > wrote: > > > >> I cannot really speak for Europe on this but in the USA the > >> marjority of purchases are planned before the consumer walks > >> into the supermarket. Less than 30% of total purhcases are > >> impulse. > > > > Maybe this is true for the totality of purchases, but certainly > > not for wine purchases. In Europe there are some specialized win > > shops (enoteca, caviste etc.), but the lion's share of wine > > (well over 60%) is sold in supermarkets. > > > > Once again: It's the producers' and botlers' wish to market "Le > > Sauvignon du Baron Philippe AOC Bordeaux", because of the roaring > > success of sauvignon, merlot, syrah & co. from Chile, Australia. > > > > It's totally childish, imnsho, not to let them label their wine > > the way they want. > > > > But I guess I am repeating myself. > > > > M. > > |
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In article et>,
Richard Neidich > wrote: > >Dan, I live in the USA and 25 years ago had my first Bordeaux. I did not >know what kind of grapes it was...all I new is "I liked it". > >What would the difference really be if I had never had Cabernet Sauv before >either? Bordeaux which is geographical or cab sauv which is varietal. >Assume I never had either. You'd like to find more like it, right? However, what if that Bordeaux was merlot-based and you then bought another that was cab-based? >I am not an Opus One fan but you know they did not have any problems selling >out each year. Nor does Phelps Insignia. You know what big Danno....it >does not mention variety on the label either!!!! Whether wines do or not, I feel they should. I wouldn't force them to, though. Dimitri |
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Demitri, that is in part the point...
Bordeaux Cab or Merlot based when its from France its a profile based upon terroir not variety. Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference of Cab vs Merlot dominant from Bordeaux Classified wines. Even a few from California the Merlot is very Cab Like. But there are very few really good merlots from Nor Cal -Napa in my opinion. I think Sawyer Cellars, Duckhorn and perhaps Matanzas Creek are my stand outs of Nor Cal producers. I think Producer, Geography are more important to me then just variety. Hell I recently had a JL Chave 1996 Hermitage with Dinner at Chez Panisse in Berkley and it was very Bordeaux like but was Syrah...and not like any Syrah I have ever had from Austrailia or California. "D. Gerasimatos" > wrote in message ... > In article et>, > Richard Neidich > wrote: >> >>Dan, I live in the USA and 25 years ago had my first Bordeaux. I did not >>know what kind of grapes it was...all I new is "I liked it". >> >>What would the difference really be if I had never had Cabernet Sauv >>before >>either? Bordeaux which is geographical or cab sauv which is varietal. >>Assume I never had either. > > > You'd like to find more like it, right? However, what if that Bordeaux was > merlot-based and you then bought another that was cab-based? > > >>I am not an Opus One fan but you know they did not have any problems >>selling >>out each year. Nor does Phelps Insignia. You know what big Danno....it >>does not mention variety on the label either!!!! > > > Whether wines do or not, I feel they should. I wouldn't force them to, > though. > > > Dimitri > |
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In ,
Joseph B. Rosenberg > typed: > When I worked retail a customer would come in and say they > had "Fattoria" Chianti Classico LOL! > at Luigi's House of Garlic in Little > Italy and want a case. LOL again! Two LOLs in one sentence! -- Ken Blake Please reply to the newsgroup |
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Michael Pronay > wrote:
> Why should a plain AOC "Bordeaux" wine not be able to mention > "Merlot" or "Sauvignon Blanc"? Btw, I just found a label reading "Bordeaux Sauvignon": <http://www.chateau- ziltener.com/z_weine/angebot.php?show=show_next&id=107&lang=de> or <http://snipurl.com/gw87> In theory, this should be illegal? M. |
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Michael Pronay > wrote in
: > http://snipurl.com/gw87 theoretically illegal, and just plain weird as most white Bordeaux are Semillion/SB blends and Sauvignon by itself is a tad more confusing than informative since the web page but not the bottle indicates the white thus SB of the wine. -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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jcoulter > wrote in
: > Michael Pronay > wrote in > : > >> http://snipurl.com/gw87 > > theoretically illegal, and just plain weird as most white Bordeaux are > Semillion/SB blends and Sauvignon by itself is a tad more confusing > than informative since the web page but not the bottle indicates the > white thus SB of the wine. > And note the suggested serving temp of 9C or 48F chill that sucker. -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:02:46 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote: >Michael Pronay > wrote: > >> Why should a plain AOC "Bordeaux" wine not be able to mention >> "Merlot" or "Sauvignon Blanc"? > >Btw, I just found a label reading "Bordeaux Sauvignon": > ><http://www.chateau- >ziltener.com/z_weine/angebot.php?show=show_next&id=107&lang=de> > >or > ><http://snipurl.com/gw87> > >In theory, this should be illegal? And if you click the "Next" link on that URL you will see an illegally labelled Burg. These are not uncommon in the UK. -- Steve Slatcher http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher |
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Steve Slatcher > wrote in
: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:02:46 +0200, Michael Pronay > > wrote: > >>Michael Pronay > wrote: >> >>> Why should a plain AOC "Bordeaux" wine not be able to mention >>> "Merlot" or "Sauvignon Blanc"? >> >>Btw, I just found a label reading "Bordeaux Sauvignon": >> >><http://www.chateau- >>ziltener.com/z_weine/angebot.php?show=show_next&id=107&lang=de> >> >>or >> >><http://snipurl.com/gw87> >> >>In theory, this should be illegal? > > And if you click the "Next" link on that URL you will see an illegally > labelled Burg. These are not uncommon in the UK. Hi, I have a question, then. Is this "legal"? http://www.louisjadot.com/vins/pinot_uk.html I have to say I don't remember what this is like, it's been a while since I tasted it... |
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Mike Tommasi wrote: > JEP62 wrote: > > > > > What I can't understand it what is to be gained from forbidding the > > information on the label? I say leave it up to the grower/winemaker. > > There are some oversimplifications in both the above snippets. Possibly :-) > > If you left it up to the winemaker, he could freely add things like > "made from magnetically correct grapes" or "drinking my wine will cure > cancer". And if the buyer falls for that, whose fault is it. > So all those things are confined to the less visible back > label, leaving the front one free of clutter and allowing the consumer > to chose and to compare fairly the wines he wants to buy. Why? Because > the information on the label are the ONLY elements that are guaranteed > by the appellation system and the system of checks and controls around > it. Everything else is not verifiable, and therefore relegated to a > lesser label in tha back. Now you guys in the US should be sensitive to > this consumer protection stuff, really! So if it's on the front label, it is governed and verifiable but if you put it on the back label you can lie ? That's not consumer protection in my book. BTW, aren't grape varieties "guaranteed by the appellation system and the system of checks and controls around it" ? > > Otherwise you end up with all those silly Aussie labels. ;-) LOL > > Seriously, the problems of the appellation system are certainly real, > but the issues are far deeper than the label. Agreed. Andy |
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enoavidh > wrote in
. 40: > > Hi, I have a question, then. Is this "legal"? > > http://www.louisjadot.com/vins/pinot_uk.html > > I have to say I don't remember what this is like, it's been a while > since I tasted it... > IIRC a rather mediocre PN for the price. the similarly labeled Chardonnay is fairly oaky as opposed to their non varietal labeled white Burg which is superior at a slightly lower price. It seems that varietal also describes a style of manufacture in some peoples minds. if it is Chard it must be oaky, if Burgundy it is allowed a certain native elegance. -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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"JEP62" > wrote in news:1123858357.664273.324550
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > Mike Tommasi wrote: >> JEP62 wrote: >> > >> > > What I can't understand it what is to be gained from forbidding the >> > information on the label? I say leave it up to the grower/winemaker. >> >> There are some oversimplifications in both the above snippets. > > Possibly :-) > >> >> If you left it up to the winemaker, he could freely add things like >> "made from magnetically correct grapes" or "drinking my wine will cure >> cancer". > > And if the buyer falls for that, whose fault is it. > "Avec la garrigue, jamais de la fatigue." is the motto of Domaine de la Garrigue in Vacqueyras. (they are unfiltered and use, according to them, almost no SO2) -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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jcoulter > wrote in
: > IIRC a rather mediocre PN for the price. the similarly labeled > Chardonnay is fairly oaky as opposed to their non varietal labeled > white Burg which is superior at a slightly lower price. It seems that > varietal also describes a style of manufacture in some peoples minds. > if it is Chard it must be oaky, if Burgundy it is allowed a certain > native elegance. > > Yeah, I was thinking it wasn't particularly memorable. Either of them. I think I paid $13.99US in Pennsylvania for the PN, and it looks like the Chardonnay is $12.99; the Macon Villages is $10.99 here and I can get it at the tiny store up the street, so it's okay for everyday use  |
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enoavidh > wrote in
. 40: > > Yeah, I was thinking it wasn't particularly memorable. Either of > them. I think I paid $13.99US in Pennsylvania for the PN, and it > looks like the Chardonnay is $12.99; the Macon Villages is $10.99 here > and I can get it at the tiny store up the street, so it's okay for > everyday use It is the Macon that I prefer! but since I am currently working on a supply of La Vignee 2001 at @ $5 a bottle . . .everyay expectations are pretty high (the 2003 is available at my local supermarket for $14.99) -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
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Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,
le/on Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:14:26 +0200, tu disais/you said:- >>>What I _do_ think is ludicrous is that European legislators seem to need to >>>be so blessed directive all the time. What isn't obligatory is forbidden, it >>>seems to me, and I don't think that kind of thinking is good at all. >>> >> >> What I can't understand it what is to be gained from forbidding the >> information on the label? I say leave it up to the grower/winemaker. > >There are some oversimplifications in both the above snippets. > >First, the EU gives directive and it is up to the sovereign governments >of each country to apply them by issuing a law. I cannot understand why >Ian says that what isn't obligatory is forbidden, it sounds like another >Polish plumber story... Not knowing the Polish plumber concerned, I can't say. However, you know perfectly well that the INAO is extremely directive about what can, must and must not be on front labels. Nearly as directive as they are about what cepage may and may not be used, whether sugar may or may not be added, whether acid may or may not be added, so on ad infinitum and WAY past nauseam. I was slightly parodying, but there's a great deal of truth in what I say. OK, in the Languedoc, they have more freedom in what they may and may not do and say on labels, but in many other regions, they have virtually NO freedom. I don't share the obsession of varietally anal retentives about what exact proportion of grapes go into any particular blend, but I really don't see why the heck some bureaucrat in either Brussels or Paris, Reims or Bordeaux should tell Francis Boulard or the lovely Mireille Daret what s/he can or can't put the cepages on their labels, back OR front. -- All the Best Ian Hoare http://www.souvigne.com mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
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"jcoulter" in :
> enoavidh > wrote in > . 40: >> >> Hi, I have a question, then. Is this "legal"? >> >> http://www.louisjadot.com/vins/pinot_uk.html That's a widely known label (available throughout the US and elsewhere, and likely is some people's introduction to red Burgundy). BTW it varies a lot with the vintage, as wines sometimes do. The 1996 available in the US was relatively stunning: weight and balance and minerality like a village AC wine or better, and as I expected it matured well in a few years. (At USD $12 or so.) At least one subsequent vintage has been very good also. These atypical labelings for export market still reflect much improvement over the scandal in (?) 1976 when some cheap bulk red wine was found at dockside in France (as I recall the story), marked "can be sold as Beaujolais in USA." -- Max |
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"Max Hauser" > wrote in
: > > That's a widely known label (available throughout the US and > elsewhere, and likely is some people's introduction to red Burgundy). > > BTW it varies a lot with the vintage, as wines sometimes do. The 1996 > available in the US was relatively stunning: weight and balance and > minerality like a village AC wine or better, and as I expected it > matured well in a few years. (At USD $12 or so.) At least one > subsequent vintage has been very good also. > > > These atypical labelings for export market still reflect much > improvement over the scandal in (?) 1976 when some cheap bulk red wine > was found at dockside in France (as I recall the story), marked "can > be sold as Beaujolais in USA." > Well, I guess I was confused when I saw it on Jadot's site, on the French side...I've certainly had the basic Bourgogne before, but I think they have changed the label somewhat. I know the words "Pinot Noir" weren't red before...I'll have to snoop around and see what I can find. |
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"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message ... > Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi, [snip] >> I don't share the obsession of varietally anal retentives about what exact > proportion of grapes go into any particular blend, but I really don't see > why the heck some bureaucrat in either Brussels or Paris, Reims or Bordeaux > should tell Francis Boulard or the lovely Mireille Daret what s/he can or > can't put the cepages on their labels, back OR front. > -- > All the Best > Ian Hoare [snip] Ian; I understand that this is a frantic time of year for you but, take a pill man...... Using disparaging terms such as "obsession" and "anal retentives" to counter what in the end is merely an opinion with which you disagree is far beneath the poster I have come somewhat to know on this forum. When one can't muster a good argument to counter a proposition, the age old tactic is to attack the proposer. Not conducive to the exchange of ideas/opinions in this group. Kindest Regards -- Chuck So much wine; So little time! To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address |
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Salut/Hi Chuck,
le/on Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:21:18 -0400, tu disais/you said:- >>> I don't share the obsession of varietally anal retentives about what >>>exact proportion of grapes go into any particular blend, >I understand that this is a frantic time of year for you but, take a pill >man...... Using disparaging terms such as "obsession" and "anal retentives" >to counter what in the end is merely an opinion with which you disagree is >far beneath the poster I have come somewhat to know on this forum. Grin! I have been reading this NG for - goodness me - 6 or 7 years, and believe me, the expressions are mild for some of the more extreme views I've read here. >When one can't muster a good argument to counter a proposition, Read back over my post and you'll see that I've given several excellent reasons why the over emphasis on grape variety can often mislead badly. If you also read further, you'll see that I agree and accept that the overall characteristic of a wine is more down to the cepage(s) used than anything else. Can you cross your heart and promise me that by tasting alone you can tell the difference between the proportions of Merlot, Cab Franc, Cab Sauvignon in different vintages of any single Médoc Chx? So what possible USE is it to give that information? As I said, it is as likely to mislead the uninformed than inform them, and the informed know how to find out the information and mostly don't care anyway. I don't use ad hominem arguments and certainly not to try to prove a point. That said, once in a while I might allow myself the pleasure - normally just to provoke. Chuck, if you REALLY care whether a wine from Ch Fortia has or hasn't got 5% of Mourvèdre with amongst the 12 other authorised varieties in Chateauneuf du Pape, then we are not really on the same oenological planet. I see no useful purpose to putting these on the bottle except as a marketing tool. The only circumstances when it MIGHT just be of interest, is if someone like Ch de Beaucastel either uses an unusually high proportion of Mourvèdre for the region, or else _doesn't_ for one particular year. Equally, if someone is going to pay $50 or $60 for a bottle of decent Burgundy or Willamette Valley wine then I think it reasonable to expect them to know already what grape it's made from. So why bother to religiously trot out the "Pinot Noir" information. Of course it's PN. I'd also argue that middle order or lesser wines are so liable to be messed around during winemaking, that the characteristics of the cepage are quite likely to be more or less heavily masked - so yet again the _emphasis_ on cepage as being all important (as is the case in many new world wines) smacks more of catering to a kind of snobbish anal retentiveness than anything else. I suffered for WEEKS here reading about pretensious films in which the relative merits of different cepages seem to have been the only point of importance. In fact, the only REAL use IMO of generally labelling wines with their cepage is to allow ignorant and/or lazy wine shop staff easily to group their wines by cepage without looking it up. (Tongue in cheek time). -- All the Best Ian Hoare http://www.souvigne.com mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website |
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:55:18 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote: >What I _do_ think is ludicrous is that European legislators seem to need to >be so blessed directive all the time. What isn't obligatory is forbidden, it >seems to me, and I don't think that kind of thinking is good at all. Apparently this used to be the case, but from 2000 it is no longer the case. There are now "Obligatory terms" and "Optional but regulated terms", Anything not covered by these categories may be added to the label providing they do not mislead consumers." See http://tinyurl.com/dro73 and the links from this page for details. Get that cup of coffe first though! -- Steve Slatcher http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher |
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On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:57:57 +0100, Steve Slatcher
> wrote: > but from 2000 it is no longer the case. Sorry, that should have read "2002" -- Steve Slatcher http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher |
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