> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:21:08 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Imagine if this was any other industry...your accountant...I only pay you
>>what I want--Yeah Right!~!! Your attorney...your doctor....your auto
>>mechanic...parts plus what I want to.
>
> See the following link in today's Seattle P-I.
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...tipping30.html
> It looks like I'm the only one who isn't getting tipped, even though I
> always provided excellent service. Maybe I need a lower paying job.
>
> Btw, here's their poll results on the subject:
>
> How much do you usually tip when you dine out? (Total Votes: 4456)
>
> 4.9% 10% or less
> 4.3% 12%
> 36.2% 15%
> 22.6% 18%
> 30.0% 20% or more
> 0.8% Never tip at all
> 1.2% Never dine anywhere they expect tips
>
> So clearly we're not a nation of cheapskates. Ot at least the 4,456
> P-I readers aren't.
>
>>At Chez Panisse in Berkley California they did the same thing. I asked
>>about it cause it was first time I had seen it like that and they said the
>>all get health benefits now, have disability and life
>>insurance.....etc....
>>
>>I think it make a nice statement about the restaurant.
>
> No, it makes a nice statement about the employer's willingness to
> provide for his/her employees. That's how you keep good ones. That's
> why hardly anybody ever quits Costco, and the customer service is
> almost always excellent.
>
> Mandatory tipping isn't a tip, it's a surcharge. Just because I always
> tip well doesn't mean I should have to relinquish the option of not
> tipping at all if the service sucks.
>
> JJ
>
The function of tipping has no function except to pay a portion
of the wages that the receivers get.
In other words, if there were no tips then the market in jobs, which
is manipulated by competetive wages, would take over naturally.
Those places that pay peanuts get monkeys.
Those who dont mind being slung their hash this way will pay
less for their meals.
What's wrong in paying higher prices for meals?
When you wish to get better service, then you let them know by
eating at a better place, where the combination of food and
service quality is best.
Tipping interferes with this process, tempting customers to set the
costs themselves, by selecting certain waiters for tips.
This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
worse.
So in practice then, everyone ends up tipping evenly regardless of
quality.
You find out the "usual" percentage, and fork up without a whimper.

My instincts tell me that tipping is a humiliating process for both
parties.
What about good management and pride in one's work?
How else is good work obtained from the rest of us?

--
Interested

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "interested" > wrote:

>This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
>not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
>worse.

So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never
gone to before and to which you will never go back again?

In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you
know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never
going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will
be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.


--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

Leo,

I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the
tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?

Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?


"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "interested" > wrote:
>
>>This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
>>not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
>>worse.
>
> So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never
> gone to before and to which you will never go back again?
>
> In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you
> know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never
> going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will
> be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.
>
>
> --
> =================================================
> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
> =================================================

Two separate issues. First, tipping under the circumstances described
below (never went before, never will go back) seems to be bad
economics, particularly for the tipper, who gets nothing in return for
his tip. Note the tip comes at the *end* of the service, so the tip
obviously was not an incentive for the staff to provide better
service--unless, that is, the staff has a crystal ball that told them
that the tipper would be a good one.

The second issue is that adding a percentage to the total bill as a
tip is a deceptive practice, intended to make the cost of the meal
items look cheaper than they really are, thereby making the restaurant
appear more competitive.

Suppose restaurant A advertises $20 for a 2 pound lobster and
restaurant B advertises $19 for it. If restaurant B then tacks on an
automatic 15%, then its real price is $21.85.

What price do you think restaurant B advertises for its lobster
dinners?

This is a trick used in many industries to make the dirty players'
products appear cheaper than honest competitors'.

For example, years ago some cruise operators used to advertise, say, a
Caribbean cruise for $900 plus "port charges", implying money they had
to pay as landing fees to ports at destination countries.

Turns out the "port charges" included no only the amount of money the
operator had to pay port authorities but a kicker they pocketed. So,
the $900 advertised price was a fraud.


On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:06:45 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>Leo,
>
>I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the
>tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?
>
>Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?
>
>
>"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "interested" > wrote:
>>
>>>This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
>>>not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
>>>worse.
>>
>> So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never
>> gone to before and to which you will never go back again?
>>
>> In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you
>> know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never
>> going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will
>> be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.
>>
>>
>> --
>> =================================================
>> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
>> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
>> =================================================
>

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

OK, so if the restaurant just raises their prices 15% to 20% you don't have
a problem?

Your only issue is showing a separate charge for service/Tip at end of meal?

Therefore if they charge $20 for a lobster today but tomorrow is is $24 and
servcice is included is that OK.

If thats not your just a cheapskate that does not want to pay a living
wage...which is it...:-)




"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> Two separate issues. First, tipping under the circumstances described
> below (never went before, never will go back) seems to be bad
> economics, particularly for the tipper, who gets nothing in return for
> his tip. Note the tip comes at the *end* of the service, so the tip
> obviously was not an incentive for the staff to provide better
> service--unless, that is, the staff has a crystal ball that told them
> that the tipper would be a good one.
>
> The second issue is that adding a percentage to the total bill as a
> tip is a deceptive practice, intended to make the cost of the meal
> items look cheaper than they really are, thereby making the restaurant
> appear more competitive.
>
> Suppose restaurant A advertises $20 for a 2 pound lobster and
> restaurant B advertises $19 for it. If restaurant B then tacks on an
> automatic 15%, then its real price is $21.85.
>
> What price do you think restaurant B advertises for its lobster
> dinners?
>
> This is a trick used in many industries to make the dirty players'
> products appear cheaper than honest competitors'.
>
> For example, years ago some cruise operators used to advertise, say, a
> Caribbean cruise for $900 plus "port charges", implying money they had
> to pay as landing fees to ports at destination countries.
>
> Turns out the "port charges" included no only the amount of money the
> operator had to pay port authorities but a kicker they pocketed. So,
> the $900 advertised price was a fraud.
>
>
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:06:45 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> > wrote:
>
>>Leo,
>>
>>I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the
>>tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?
>>
>>Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?
>>
>>
>>"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "interested" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
>>>>not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
>>>>worse.
>>>
>>> So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never
>>> gone to before and to which you will never go back again?
>>>
>>> In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you
>>> know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never
>>> going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will
>>> be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> =================================================
>>> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
>>> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
>>> =================================================
>>
>
> --
> =================================================
> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
> =================================================

Leo, our service industry has centered around a tip for service....the
better the service the higher the tip. The worse the service the lower the
tip. Personally I have never stiffed a waiter completely. Even if I had a
complete ass which has happened a few times I did not stiff. I left 10%
because I still figured the server deserved to eat. Hopefully they would
eventually get fired or find another job that fit their personality.

That said...if the restaruant and customers viewed the service industry of
wait staff as professionals...tipping would be rude. You don't tip Doctors,
Lawyers, Accountants, Financial Advisors....nor would you tip a wait staff.

They could include and show pricing as final or show at bottom of the bill
the % added. In reality there is no difference to me.

When in Europe I had outstanding service in France, Spain, etc....tip was
included. In USA I have had excellent service when no tip was included.
When entertaining large parties and tip was included for 6 or more service
did NOT suffer.

Therefore I think you are making more of this than it is. In reality if you
had poor service and service was included you would speak to the manager.
That does not mean that the wait person gets away with giving you poor
service. In my experience....wait staff does not deserve to be taken
advantage of and I remember my youthful days working my way through college
as a waiter...you can give OUTSTANDING service and some customers simply did
not tip or tip well enough. They therefore get a sale vs everyone else.

I do think if you value the service as a profession it should be compensated
as such. Method of invoicing that service as "service included at __% or
just raising pricing and indicating "No tipping allowed" works for me. No
difference to me at all. Assuming you live in Florida Publix Supermarkets
has a No Tipping policy for Baggers that take your groceries to the car. It
used to be and probably still is posted on the doors of the store. They
view their baggers as professionals and you still get the excellent service.






"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> Two separate issues. First, tipping under the circumstances described
> below (never went before, never will go back) seems to be bad
> economics, particularly for the tipper, who gets nothing in return for
> his tip. Note the tip comes at the *end* of the service, so the tip
> obviously was not an incentive for the staff to provide better
> service--unless, that is, the staff has a crystal ball that told them
> that the tipper would be a good one.
>
> The second issue is that adding a percentage to the total bill as a
> tip is a deceptive practice, intended to make the cost of the meal
> items look cheaper than they really are, thereby making the restaurant
> appear more competitive.
>
> Suppose restaurant A advertises $20 for a 2 pound lobster and
> restaurant B advertises $19 for it. If restaurant B then tacks on an
> automatic 15%, then its real price is $21.85.
>
> What price do you think restaurant B advertises for its lobster
> dinners?
>
> This is a trick used in many industries to make the dirty players'
> products appear cheaper than honest competitors'.
>
> For example, years ago some cruise operators used to advertise, say, a
> Caribbean cruise for $900 plus "port charges", implying money they had
> to pay as landing fees to ports at destination countries.
>
> Turns out the "port charges" included no only the amount of money the
> operator had to pay port authorities but a kicker they pocketed. So,
> the $900 advertised price was a fraud.
>
>
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:06:45 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> > wrote:
>
>>Leo,
>>
>>I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the
>>tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?
>>
>>Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?
>>
>>
>>"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:02:52 GMT, "interested" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do
>>>>not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made
>>>>worse.
>>>
>>> So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never
>>> gone to before and to which you will never go back again?
>>>
>>> In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you
>>> know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never
>>> going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will
>>> be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> =================================================
>>> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
>>> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
>>> =================================================
>>
>
> --
> =================================================
> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
> =================================================

The issues:

A) You're assuming that the service is impeccable. Clearly, that is
not always the case. If the service sucks, what then is your recourse?

B) I don't want any establishment presuming what I would pay, or if I
would pay, in tip. That's at my discretion, not theirs.

JJ

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:06:45 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the
>tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?
>
>Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?

Salut/Hi ,

le/on Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:00:19 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>The issues:
>
>A) You're assuming that the service is impeccable. Clearly, that is
>not always the case. If the service sucks, what then is your recourse?

Tell them. Or is that too obvious? Tell the staff and/or the manager/owner.

>B) I don't want any establishment presuming what I would pay, or if I
>would pay, in tip. That's at my discretion, not theirs.

Don't you worry that this puts them into a position of subservience to you.
I find it degrading, both to me as tipper and to the person who's serving.
People should do their best because it is a matter of self respect, not
because they hope to get a bigger tip.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article >, ianhoare@angelfire.
com says...
>
>Salut/Hi ,
>
> le/on Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:00:19 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>The issues:
>>
>>A) You're assuming that the service is impeccable. Clearly, that is
>>not always the case. If the service sucks, what then is your recourse?
>
>Tell them. Or is that too obvious? Tell the staff and/or the manager/owner.
>
>>B) I don't want any establishment presuming what I would pay, or if I
>>would pay, in tip. That's at my discretion, not theirs.
>
>Don't you worry that this puts them into a position of subservience to you.
>I find it degrading, both to me as tipper and to the person who's serving.
>People should do their best because it is a matter of self respect, not
>because they hope to get a bigger tip.
>
>
>--
>All the Best
>Ian Hoare
>http://www.souvigne.com

I agree Ian. However, (maybe it is the American coming out in me) I find that
for really worthwhile service, I will tip in Europe. Often, this tip is waved
off, and I make a point to the server (could just as well be a London cabbie,
as the sommelier at a 2* restaurant), and explain that the person has gone
beyond my expectation for service. I usually loosely base the tip on the US
standards. I hope, that by doing this, I am not setting a bad prescedent in
Europe. I also hope that I am not insulting the server in any way, as this is
never my intention.

In the US, we are often at resorts, where the hosting organization has
included a gratutity to the cost of the resort. In nearly every instance, the
staff informs me of this, but if the service goes "beyond" I insist that they
accept the "extra." Again, I look upon this as a reward for going beyond, my
expectations, which are usually very high. I want the server to know that they
have EXCEEDED these expectations, and I appreciate this extra effort.

Again, I hope that I am not corrupting the system, which has been in place for
many centuries in Europe, but feel that these folk deserve something extra,
for something extra. While it is EXPECTED in much of the US, I would never
wish to tip a cabbie in Wash DC 15% for the minimum of service, and slight a
cabbie in London, who carries all of my wife's baggage to the curb-side-check
-in at Heathrow. The same for the Sommelier, who pours over his list of wines,
and all of our guest's orders, and works hard to get the best value wines,
paired with a broad spectrum of meals, to the table - then servers them all
well.

In *very* general terms, I usually find the overall service in Europe to be
better than in the US.

Hunt

I too find service mostly to be better in Europe.

I sometimes think that those that are overly cost conscience about the
gratuity being included are just cheap an really have a hard time with
someone making a living.

To me its about the "haves" want to make sure everyone is a "have not".

If the service was actually bad you would likely speak to the manager and
explain why you thought it was bad and they would typically comp the meal if
service was really bad.

The only question I would have is which would be the right way to show the
charges:

1) One way is to at say 20% to bottom of bill stating service included
2) Another way would be to state the pricing of each menu item as
tax/service included there fore a steak that might be $20 would show as
$24.00. Bill stamped with Service of 20% is included in price.

I prefer the first but either would be fine with me.


"Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> ianhoare@angelfire.
> com says...
>>
>>Salut/Hi ,
>>
>> le/on Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:00:19 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>>
>>>The issues:
>>>
>>>A) You're assuming that the service is impeccable. Clearly, that is
>>>not always the case. If the service sucks, what then is your recourse?
>>
>>Tell them. Or is that too obvious? Tell the staff and/or the
>>manager/owner.
>>
>>>B) I don't want any establishment presuming what I would pay, or if I
>>>would pay, in tip. That's at my discretion, not theirs.
>>
>>Don't you worry that this puts them into a position of subservience to
>>you.
>>I find it degrading, both to me as tipper and to the person who's serving.
>>People should do their best because it is a matter of self respect, not
>>because they hope to get a bigger tip.
>>
>>
>>--
>>All the Best
>>Ian Hoare
>>http://www.souvigne.com
>
> I agree Ian. However, (maybe it is the American coming out in me) I find
> that
> for really worthwhile service, I will tip in Europe. Often, this tip is
> waved
> off, and I make a point to the server (could just as well be a London
> cabbie,
> as the sommelier at a 2* restaurant), and explain that the person has gone
> beyond my expectation for service. I usually loosely base the tip on the
> US
> standards. I hope, that by doing this, I am not setting a bad prescedent
> in
> Europe. I also hope that I am not insulting the server in any way, as this
> is
> never my intention.
>
> In the US, we are often at resorts, where the hosting organization has
> included a gratutity to the cost of the resort. In nearly every instance,
> the
> staff informs me of this, but if the service goes "beyond" I insist that
> they
> accept the "extra." Again, I look upon this as a reward for going beyond,
> my
> expectations, which are usually very high. I want the server to know that
> they
> have EXCEEDED these expectations, and I appreciate this extra effort.
>
> Again, I hope that I am not corrupting the system, which has been in place
> for
> many centuries in Europe, but feel that these folk deserve something
> extra,
> for something extra. While it is EXPECTED in much of the US, I would never
> wish to tip a cabbie in Wash DC 15% for the minimum of service, and slight
> a
> cabbie in London, who carries all of my wife's baggage to the
> curb-side-check
> -in at Heathrow. The same for the Sommelier, who pours over his list of
> wines,
> and all of our guest's orders, and works hard to get the best value wines,
> paired with a broad spectrum of meals, to the table - then servers them
> all
> well.
>
> In *very* general terms, I usually find the overall service in Europe to
> be
> better than in the US.
>
> Hunt
>

"Hunt" > skrev i melding
...
> ... I usually loosely base the tip on the US
> standards. I hope, that by doing this, I am not setting a bad prescedent
> in
> Europe. I also hope that I am not insulting the server in any way, as this
> is
> never my intention.
>
Sorry Hunt,
the waiters probably will talk about "this crazy American" and expect the
next one to tip as well without returning any extra service...
Each European country differs from the others, so you should indeed check
for local customs. For Norway you'd round off to some suitable amount, say
from 925.- till 1000.- if the service was good, 950.- would do for less than
adequate service but is still a tip..
Anders

Tipping is a ridiculous system which misrepresents the true cost of
service and food in restaurants. I wish it would go away. I'd rather
see the real prices on the menu and not leave the pay of servers up to
customers. Few other businesses pay their employees this way.

Service would not drop if managers paid proper attention to hiring,
training, and discipline. Sure, servers can grab cash in the long
run, but the restaurants really benefit by underpaying their staff.

Why in the world is this system still in place???

Nellis Paris