Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
about the related question of storage temperature.

Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
degres(F).

Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.


--
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Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:17:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>
>Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
>about the related question of storage temperature.
>
>Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
>degres(F).
>
>Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.

I've not heard of any such studies, though can I ask you if you've done a
search on Google?

My personal opinion is that 55 (12.8C for the rest of the world) is
significantly too warm for long term optimum aging. I'd dispute
"conventional wisdom" or even that this storage temperature IS conventional
wisdom.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

No, I have not done a search on Google. However, I have minded the
question for some time now while reading about wine. All authors seem
to have taken for granted the idea that there *is* an optimal storage
temperature, somewhere between 50[F] and 60[F].

As an aside, I am inclined to do a non-scientific survey of
climate-controlled wine storage facilities in the US inquiring as to
their storage temperature (and humidity) and as to why they picked
that particular temperature.

The 55[F] figure in the original message (and thread title) is not set
in stone. I am inquiring generically about the basis for setting the
"optimal" storage temperature, whatever figure is proffered to be so.

Yes, storing wine at its freezing or boiling temperatures is
intuitively and obviously not a good idea. However, has anybody
bothered to compare wine stored at, say, 50[F], 55[F] and 60[F]?

My concern is with the dictum (or is it gospel?) that wine should be
stored at temperature X--which, as I mentioned, is generally pegged
between 50 and 60[F]. My hunch, and that's all it is, is that there
is very little evidence backing up the proposition that temperature X
is optimal.

Thus the query: show me the data!


On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:00:40 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,
>
> le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:17:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>
>>Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
>>about the related question of storage temperature.
>>
>>Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
>>degres(F).
>>
>>Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.
>
>I've not heard of any such studies, though can I ask you if you've done a
>search on Google?
>
>My personal opinion is that 55 (12.8C for the rest of the world) is
>significantly too warm for long term optimum aging. I'd dispute
>"conventional wisdom" or even that this storage temperature IS conventional
>wisdom.

--
=================================================
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=================================================

Leo

You might like to check out:
http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultima...=003958#000000
I'm afraid you have to vote to see the results.

Additionally I would question what is actually meant by "optimal" in
the context of storring wine. What is being optimised, and who is to
judge?

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Here are the results of my quick and dirty research.

The storage temperature listed are the ranges provided on each
facility's web site (listed below the table). When only one figure
was given (i.e., no range specified), it appears on both the low and
the high end range column. Non-integer values were derived from
Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion.

ENTITY TEMP-low TEMP-high
Vintrust 58 58
East Bank Wine Storage 50 59
Marin Wine Vaults 55 57
Portland Wine Storage 55 55
Private Mini Storage 55 55
Horse Ridge Cellars 55 55
Seattle Wine Storage 55 55
The Wine Safe 55 55.8
Legend Cellars 57 57
Cellarit 57.2 57.2
Store-It 57.2 60.8
Stronbox Wine Cellar 55 55
AVERAGE 55.4 56.7

WEB PAGE
http://www.vintrust.com/vintrustappl...=3&submenuid=3
http://www.eastbankwine.com/about/index.html
http://www.marinwinevaults.com/climatecontrol/
http://www.portlandwine.com/
http://www.private-mini.com/wine.htm
http://www.horseridgecellars.com/facility.htm
http://www.seattlewinestorage.biz/index.php?s=services
http://www.winesafe.co.nz/aboutus.html
http://www.legendcellars.net/
http://cellarit.com/content/cellarag...eWhatIsIt.aspx
http://www.store-it.com.sg/storeit_winestorage.html
http://www.winestorage.com/main.html


On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:00:40 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,
>
> le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:17:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>
>>Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
>>about the related question of storage temperature.
>>
>>Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
>>degres(F).
>>
>>Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.
>
>I've not heard of any such studies, though can I ask you if you've done a
>search on Google?
>
>My personal opinion is that 55 (12.8C for the rest of the world) is
>significantly too warm for long term optimum aging. I'd dispute
>"conventional wisdom" or even that this storage temperature IS conventional
>wisdom.

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:18:47 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>Here are the results of my quick and dirty research.

Thanks. Don't misunderstand me when I point out that all these facilities
are in the USA. I certainly take the point that _in the USA_ these figures
are general. Given that the cost of keeping a facility cool is related to
the temperature difference between the target temperature and ambient, I
wonder if this doesn't have something to do with it.

My only (non scientific) input here is that on the rare occasions when I've
drunk a wine which has been stored at a steady cold temperature, it has
seemed very young compared with the wines from the same year stored
"normally". For this to have any serious evidential value, I'd have had to
drink wines in parallel and I haven't. However, I HAVE had enough occasions
when the storage has been an issue and when I've been looking out for
symptoms of it. Maybe merely I found what I was looking for, though I don't
think so.

I've not looked it up but I am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and
Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you
mention.



--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

" am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and
Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you
mention. "

Significantly colder than 55=B0F? I don't think so Ian, at least not in
Bordeaux.

As to Bordeaux cellars, this is from Robin Garr:

"As we toured the fabled Chateau Margaux in Bordeaux's Medoc region
last week, our guide, Tina Bizard, turned a corner and pointed to a
room guarded by sturdy iron bars and heavy locks: The chateau's wine
cellar!

Unlighted, cool, frankly a bit on the musty side, the long room didn't
seem much to look at, at first. But as we pushed our noses up to the
spaces between the bars and stuck our camera lenses through, it became
clear that treasure rested here. Not only Margaux's own vintages were
stored on these thick, black and mold-crusted stone and concrete
shelves, but some of the best wines of the winery's neighbors,
including such storied names as Mouton, Latour and Lafite.

Some of these bottles had been lying there for decades, even a century
or more, in a room that had been discreetly walled off during World War
II in a successful effort to keep the Nazi forces that had occupied the
region from pillaging it. Just tantalizingly out of arm's reach, one
bin held 19th Century Margaux from the Civil War or earlier ... 1868,
1865, even a few stray bottles behind a brick inscribed "1848."

Wines more than 150 years old ... surely, for such an antique to have
any chance of survival, it must have been kept under the most pristine
conditions.

But this might surprise you: While the chateau's cellar has surely
proven itself more than adequate for storing fine wines, it stops well
short of the kind of temperature- and humidity-controlled perfection
that many modern wine enthusiasts might consider mandatory.

Like many Bordeaux producers, Margaux's sprawling chais are neither
heated nor air-conditioned. They rely on thick, windowless stone walls
and the region's naturally temperate climate to hold year-round
temperatures within a range that's safe for wine.

But high-tech precision is not an issue, said Bizard, adding that
seasonal temperatures in the chai vary from as low as 12C (53F) in the
winter to a summer high of 19C (66F), with humidity high enough to coat
every surface - including the walls, the shelves, wine bottles and
their labels - with molds in shades from black to green to gray.

If you're inclined to fret overmuch about keeping wine under perfect
conditions that never vary from 55F (13C) or 70 percent humidity, there
may be a lesson here at Chateau Margaux: Do protect your liquid assets
from high or low extremes or sudden, dramatic shifts in temperature;
and if you can't avoid high humidity, give your bottles a quick wipe
every now and then. But bear in mind that Margaux's cellar has been
good enough to store a ration of its nectar at ambient temperatures
since 1848."

As to US vs. European conditions, Michael Pronay might have 50=B0F
natural conditions, but the norm in London seems to be 55=B0F to 60=B0. BBR
claims 14=B0C (57=B0F). Jamie Goode (wineanorak.com) has an article re
storage conditions at London City Bond warehouses:

"Barking and Tilbury were originally built as chill stores, which means
they are well insulated. They also still have functional cooling
facilities. =91We could haul down the temperature to whatever we wanted=92,
says Pearson, =91but this would cost a lot, and the wine trade won=92t pay
for it.=92 Although the temperature in these units is not actively
controlled, the maximum last summer at Tilbury, for example, was 16
=BAC."
"Octavian is one of the most well known warehousing facilities in the
wine trade. It=92s an underground facility formerly owned by the Ministry
of Defence, and was originally used for storing and making armaments.
Because the storage area is 90 feet underground, it sits at a steady 13
=BAC all year."

Glynnis (sp?) Castle is the exception, not the rule.

Salut/Hi DaleW,

le/on 5 Oct 2005 13:26:47 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>" am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and
>Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you
>mention. "
>
>Significantly colder than 55?? I don't think so Ian, at least not in
>Bordeaux.

Well, well, well, thanks very much Dale. I can see I'll have to re-adjust my
views on this. And yet .... it's not as if I've never visited a cellar and
I've shivered!


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

I had heard that people speak of 57 degrees because it's the average
underground temperature in most of France (and the northern US too)--
so if you have a below-ground cellar such as in Burgundy, Bordeaux,
Champagne, etc. the wines are stored around 57 degrees.

Simply put, in general chemical reactions speed up at higher
temperatures and slow down at lower ones. However some speed up/slow
down faster than others.

We can easily demonstrate that too high a storage temperature is bad.
Bad because we define what wine is supposed to taste like as Not
tasting like what it tastes like if you store it in the attic for a hot
summer.

As far as I know, nobody has shown any ill effects of storing wine at
34 degrees. But it ages more slowly. Could some reactions happen more
strongly than others, so that in fifty years this wine is not as good
as the 57 degree wine was after, say, 20 years? Perhaps. Or perhaps
it's better.

The only thing I think we do know is that too hot is bad. That said,
one of the best wine experiences I've had was with a bottle of
inexpensive Bordeaux (Chateau Falfas, less than $15) that I left in my
car for an afternoon (in the summer in NY) then cooled down to drinking
temp. It was wonderful. Would I repeat the experience? Let's just
say I consider myself lucky and doubt I could do it again.

Part of what makes this debate interesting is that we define "good" as
tasting like what we're told wine is supposed to taste like. So a
"properly" stored Bordeaux is what we're judging our wine against.
When people start to prefer a different wine (as California cabs have
been lately) vs. what the "objective standard" is, popular opinion
changes and we have a different standard against which we judge
newcomers.

Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)

Sounds like the consensus is that wine should be stored at somewhere
between 55 and 59[F], however, there is no indication that the
question has been addressed *empirically*.

Yes, every GD wine book one reads says so, but I suspect that the guy
or gal writing the book got the figure from another guy/gal who got it
from another. . . . but that nobody looked at the question critically.

So what if the average temperature in a Bordeaux cellar is 57[F]?
Why don't we pick the average temperature in a *Burgundy* cellar
instead? Does that necessarily mean that 57[F] is the optimal
temperature--whater it is we are trying to optimize, as another writer
in the thread mentioned?

This discussion is leading me to think that 55 or 57 or 59[F] or
whatever are values plucked out of the air.

Again, is anyone aware of any *evidence* that indicates the optimal
range to be somewhere between 55 and 60[F]?

I don't think it would be terribly difficult to set aside bottles of a
moderately priced wine of reasonably good quality and store batches
of, say, 30 bottles each at 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75 and
80[F] and evaluate their development using an experienced tasting
panel over the course of several years.

Until I see some studies like that, I remain skeptical (or is it
sceptical, in Brit speak?) about the idea that wine should be stored
at 55[F], of 57 or 59, or whatever the gurus say is the "correct"
temperature.

I do not doubt the "correct" temperature is to be found somewhere
between freezing and boiling, but where?

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 00:39:21 +0200, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi DaleW,
>
> le/on 5 Oct 2005 13:26:47 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>" am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and
>>Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you
>>mention. "
>>
>>Significantly colder than 55?? I don't think so Ian, at least not in
>>Bordeaux.
>
>Well, well, well, thanks very much Dale. I can see I'll have to re-adjust my
>views on this. And yet .... it's not as if I've never visited a cellar and
>I've shivered!

--
=================================================
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=================================================

So you vant know vats dis 55F for kipping vine. It comes from Morris
Broadbent whho had a store & ice house. Dere waz a terrible heat wave in
London and he ordered too much ice & when it cooled down he could move it.
Luckily his nephew Garth wrote on wine for da London Gavotte Picayune--dis
was about 1811...so he wrote, yuse must store yer vine at 55F so you get da
most plezure--dis is for clarets--whites get a little more chill. Soon the
Broadbents were out of da old ice & dats da vey it was, vere's the noisse, i
got such angina,,,,,

J. Murray Fefferman worlds oldest cork dork on the road to recovery emailed
to.
"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sounds like the consensus is that wine should be stored at somewhere
> between 55 and 59[F], however, there is no indication that the
> question has been addressed *empirically*.
>
> Yes, every GD wine book one reads says so, but I suspect that the guy
> or gal writing the book got the figure from another guy/gal who got it
> from another. . . . but that nobody looked at the question critically.
>
> So what if the average temperature in a Bordeaux cellar is 57[F]?
> Why don't we pick the average temperature in a *Burgundy* cellar
> instead? Does that necessarily mean that 57[F] is the optimal
> temperature--whater it is we are trying to optimize, as another writer
> in the thread mentioned?
>
> This discussion is leading me to think that 55 or 57 or 59[F] or
> whatever are values plucked out of the air.
>
> Again, is anyone aware of any *evidence* that indicates the optimal
> range to be somewhere between 55 and 60[F]?
>
> I don't think it would be terribly difficult to set aside bottles of a
> moderately priced wine of reasonably good quality and store batches
> of, say, 30 bottles each at 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75 and
> 80[F] and evaluate their development using an experienced tasting
> panel over the course of several years.
>
> Until I see some studies like that, I remain skeptical (or is it
> sceptical, in Brit speak?) about the idea that wine should be stored
> at 55[F], of 57 or 59, or whatever the gurus say is the "correct"
> temperature.
>
> I do not doubt the "correct" temperature is to be found somewhere
> between freezing and boiling, but where?
>
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 00:39:21 +0200, Ian Hoare >
> wrote:
>
> >Salut/Hi DaleW,
> >
> > le/on 5 Oct 2005 13:26:47 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
> >
> >>" am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and
> >>Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you
> >>mention. "
> >>
> >>Significantly colder than 55?? I don't think so Ian, at least not in
> >>Bordeaux.
> >
> >Well, well, well, thanks very much Dale. I can see I'll have to re-adjust
my
> >views on this. And yet .... it's not as if I've never visited a cellar
and
> >I've shivered!
>
> --
> =================================================
> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
> =================================================

Parker published an article discussing his own wine storage. He had
stored a significient quanty of wine at a relatively high temp(mid
60's F) at his office, as I recall. He stated he could not tell the
difference between those wines and others that he had stored elsewhere
at 55F or so after some two or three years.

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
>about the related question of storage temperature.
>
>Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
>degres(F).
>
>Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.


Pure speculation follows:

Storage of wine is, or at least should be, based on what will happen to the
wine after its storage time, and the length of that time. If the wine is to be
consumed at its "optimum" point of development, after a storage time
determined by the owner of that wine, then the 55F temp seems to be a common
one. Maybe, like the decisions on what grapes to plant in the Medoc was
determined by centuries of experimentation.

If the wine is to be stored, in hopes of selling it for a much higher price at
some time well into the future, than a lower temp might well be considered, i
..e. 45F is often cited as "ideal" as this lower temp will retard "development"
of the wine, and allow for a greater time in cellar, before it reaches its "
optimum" point.

Where 55F came from, one can only conjecture. Perhaps years of observation.
However, finding a wine's apogee of development is a very personal thing. I
may like my CA Cab at 5yr @ 55F, while you might like them much younger, or
very much older. Let us know if you can find a true "basis" for the temp
question, though, as it might prove interesting, just as this thread has.

Hunt

I've cited a page here before by some guy (has a page called
winechemist, winescientist, winesomething) who did some minor studies
and some analysis of the process. Does anyone have that bookmarked? He
was in California (page had tasting notes too).

I think that for most of our tastes, it's pretty clear that wine that
are stored above 65=B0F doesn't age was well as those stored below.
Chemical reactions tend to double at differences of 10=B0C (18=B0F). But
that's not uniform, and wines stored at 70=B0 tend to develop faster, but
not uniformly. The fruit seems to be gone before the tannins integrate,
and before most secondary notes occur
..
And I think that results from places like Glyniss Castle (I know that
I'm misspelling that,someone help!) show that very cold temps (45=B0F &
below ) lead to glacial aging- but who wants to save a big Bordeaux for
30 years for it to be youthfully tannic?

Sure, someone could do intensive studies with lots of bottles. But
there probably would never be a consensus- you're depending on tasters'
preferences. And Bordeaux might develop differently from Burg which
might develop differently from CdP which.....And maybe aging at 60=B0 is
better for a 10yr old Bdx than at 55=B0, but at 20 years the preference
is reversed.

I have a passive cellar, goes (slowly) from 50=B0 to 66=B0F seasonally. But
if I was using active cooling, I'd probably choose 55=B0 to 57=B0F as a
safe average in the middle.

"DaleW" > skrev i melding
oups.com...
..
And I think that results from places like Glyniss Castle (I know that
I'm misspelling that,someone help!)

Glamis

helped?
Anders :-)

Salut/Hi DaleW,

le/on 7 Oct 2005 11:36:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>I've cited a page here before by some guy (has a page called
>winechemist, winescientist, winesomething) who did some minor studies
>and some analysis of the process. Does anyone have that bookmarked? He
>was in California (page had tasting notes too).

Sorry, no.

>I think that for most of our tastes, it's pretty clear that wine that
>are stored above 65? doesn't age was well as those stored below.

I've not done tests as such, but I agree.

Can we - for the sake of this discussion, limit ourselves to RED wines. Dry
whites cvan also age, as can sweet ones, and I suspect that they have
different processes.

>that's not uniform, and wines stored at 70?tend to develop faster, but
>not uniformly. The fruit seems to be gone before the tannins integrate,
>and before most secondary notes occur

RIGHT!!!! I think you've gone to the nub of the question.

I may be entirely wrong here, but I've certainly read that for a wine to age
and remain wine, it MUST have acidity and tannins present in sufficient
quantity. For it to be drinkable when the tannins have been fully integrated
(perhaps polymerised might be a better word, though I doubt it describes
_everything_ that happens) it must have a great dollop of fruit. Certainly
that's accepted wisdom. It is my opinion that the differing processes of
aging may well proceed at different speeds, at different temperatures - Mark
could come in here and guide us...

The crucial question then to aging, is "What do you want"? Are you seeking
to age a wine in such a way that its potential for excellence as a balanced
drink can be realised? Are you seeking to keep a wine as long as possible to
be able to sell it at a high price? Are you seeking to keep the wine just as
long as is needed to have it a very acceptable drink? And so on. I suspect
that the storage temperatures and more especially the annual temperature
range may need to be different to achieve this different ends.

>And I think that results from places like Glyniss Castle (I know that
>I'm misspelling that,someone help!)

Glamys. (Sorry, I didn't answer before, Anders got it right of course)

> show that very cold temps (45? & below ) lead to glacial aging- but who wants to save a big Bordeaux for
>30 years for it to be youthfully tannic?

No one, but on the other hand, is it not possible that such storage could
allow a great wine, such as (not entirely innocently) Ch Haut-Brion 1945 to
really get as good as it possibly can at the end of 50 or 60 years? In fact,
I'd suggest that the loss of tannins is - to some extent - almost secondary
to aging. In my opinion - and I freely admit I'm speculating in much of what
I'm saying - tannin plays the role of a kind of preservative agent, perhaps
absorbing oxygen before it has time to act on the fruit. That's why it's
presence is essential. I'm trying to tie in the fact that we know that
there's some VERY slow ingress of oxygen - even under Stelvin - driven by
changing temperatures from one part of the year to the other.

This would explain why wines lost in bricked up cellars deep underground can
emerge 40 and 50 years later almost as fresh as if they had just been
bottled. (I've had one such, a Chevalier Montrachet 194? drunk in the early
'90s yeah, I know it's a white).

>there probably would never be a consensus- you're depending on tasters'
>preferences.

And their experiences. Our oeno-culture has changed. When I was young, it
was relatively normal for "the ruling classes" to drink very old "claret" in
the UK. They had been to Oxbridge colleges where it was normal to keep red
Bordeaux for 40 or 50 years. They went to "gentlemen's clubs" where the same
applied, and it was perfectly normal for them to have a deep cellar under
their houses. The UK is a temperate country, where extremes of temperature
à la Burgundy or USA are virtually unknown - you can grow semi-tender plants
more easily in Western Scotland than you can here, for example. So that
implies that a deep passive cellar in the UK will have both lower and more
stable temperatures year long than in Burgundy or in much of the US. For
example, my house in Harlesden in London was built in the 1880s as part of a
development by a builder from him and his family to live in. I had an
underground cellar in the NE corner of the house, with slate "shelved" brick
wine bins. Temperatures there varied between 6C and 12C. And remember this
wasn't a house for an aristocrat, or even a professional person.

>I have a passive cellar, goes (slowly) from 50?to 66? seasonally. But
>if I was using active cooling, I'd probably choose 55?to 57? as a
>safe average in the middle.

I can't help it, Dale, but I'd choose 50!!! Despite all I've read and the
fact that I shouldn't really be planning to slow down the aging of my wines
to a snail's pace, if I want to still be alive to enjoy them.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On 7 Oct 2005 11:36:53 -0700, "DaleW" > wrote:

>
>I think that for most of our tastes, it's pretty clear that wine that
>are stored above 65? doesn't age was well as those stored below.
>Chemical reactions tend to double at differences of 10? (18?). But
>that's not uniform, and wines stored at 70?tend to develop faster, but
>not uniformly. The fruit seems to be gone before the tannins integrate,
>and before most secondary notes occur


The chemical formula uses degrees Absolute, and the 10 degree
approximation.

If one wishes to slow down the reaction, why stop at 55 F? If 55 is
good, is not 45 better, and 33F best?

My guess is the cellars in some big important areas are about 55 F, so
that has become the choisen temp.

I keep my cellar a bit cooler...about 50 degrees and maintain a high
humidity as well over over 60%.

Why....cause I want long lived wines that mature and age in the bottle.
Also cause some of my wines won't get much better and this will slow their
development.

I subscribe that the cooler the cellar above freezing the slower the
maturity.

Sounds to me like some of you should also be cellared :-)




"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> Andrew's post about the effects of vibration on wine got me thinking
> about the related question of storage temperature.
>
> Conventional wisdom says that optimal storage temperature is 55
> degres(F).
>
> Wondering whether there are any studies that support this proposition.
>
>
> --
> =================================================
> Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
> Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
> =================================================

"why stop at 55 F? If 55 is
good, is not 45 better, and 33F best? "

Because at that point there is virtually no development. Some of the
wines from Glamis Castle (thanks Anders!) were reportedly brutally
youthfully tannic at 80 years old. Most of us age wines to drink in our
lifetimes.

I think anything 45F and under doesn't seem to allow for development.
At 50F (Michael Pronay's temp, I believe) wine seems to develop slowly
and evenly. A steady 60=B0F cellar (or a passive cellar with 55F t0 65F
range) seems to allow for faster development without a big loss in
quality. Anything higher seems to sacrifice some complexity.

I'm fine with what anyone wants to do with their cellar, and personal
circumstances (age and target drinking dates, what kind of wines one
cellars, etc) can make good arguments for anything from 50F to 63F,
probably. But unless one's goal is stasis, I don't think 40F is a good
storage temp.

"Shaun Eli" > wrote:

> I had heard that people speak of 57 degrees because it's the
> average underground temperature in most of France (and the
> northern US too)-- so if you have a below-ground cellar such as
> in Burgundy, Bordeaux, Champagne, etc. the wines are stored
> around 57 degrees.

Definitely not true for Champagne. The houses with the really deep
cellars (ancient Roman quarries) have 10°C (50F) all year round.
Krug at 14°C (57F) is slightly warmer.

M.

Just saw the page I was referring to cited on another forum:

http://www.wineperspective.com/STORA...0&%20AGING.htm

"DaleW" > wrote:

> Just saw the page I was referring to cited on another forum:

The Parker board.

> http://www.wineperspective.com/STORA...RE%20&%20AGING.
> htm

And while 55°F is seen as the optimal storage temperature in the
North Americas, this is in no way universal.

Ask Europeans who will tell you anything between 10 and 15°C (50
to 59°F); the first would be Champenois, German growers or myself;
the latter figure is tought in French gastronomy and sommelier
cercles.

As I have done on the Parker Forum, I seriously deny the theory
stated in the article, 49°F being possibly too cold:

| 49°F may be too low a temperature to allow some desirable aging
| changes to occur at a rate that is comparable to the human life
| cycle. Remember from our earlier discussion that different
| reactions are affected differently by temperature changes
| because each has a different barrier to reaction. Reactions with
| high barriers are more sensitive to temperature changes and with
| decreasing temperature will slow down more than reactions with
| low barriers. Since the harmonious aging of wine is due to many
| different chemical reactions occurring in a naturally
| orchestrated manner, the lower temperature may slow down some
| reactions to the point where they become non-contributors to
| desirable flavors, and, therefore, the wine’s evolution is
| thrown out of sync. It would be interesting to carry out
| research on this, but the time line required is beyond that of
| most humans.

After over 20 years of experience with a passive cellar at 50°F
with a temperature variation of ± 1°F over the year, I know what I
am talking about, there is absolutely nothing "out of sync".

M.

In article .com>,
says...
>
>Just saw the page I was referring to cited on another forum:
>
>http://www.wineperspective.com/STORA...0&%20AGING.htm

Dale,

Thank you for this link. Haven't read it all yet, but will.

Hunt

DaleW wrote:
> Just saw the page I was referring to cited on another forum:
>
> http://www.wineperspective.com/STORA...0&%20AGING.htm
>

Dale,
I read through his article and -- since he is a chemist -- feel
compelled to comment on some points. His basic thesis, that reactions
go faster at higher temperature, is true in most (but not all) cases.
However, his statement that some reactions which do not proceed at all
at lower temperature will occur at higher temperature displays a basic
misunderstanding of chemical kinetics: even at the lower temperature
they occur, just at very slow rates (rates which may be meaningful over
the long duration of wine aging). More imporantly, though, he considers
only one aspect of how temperature and temperature variation can affect
the aging of wine. As Ian has pointed out here, temperature
fluctuations lead to pressure changes inside the bottle that lead to the
influx of oxygen. There are also processes, like the deposition of
sediment, that are promoted by lowering the temperature and which may
affect other chemical processes associated with aging. Conversely, at
higher temperature the increased loss of alcohol by evaporation might
retard some reactions, although I doubt that this could be very significant.
In summary, he presents a very simplistic view of how changes in
temperature can affect the aging of wine. I can easily believe that
there may be some things going on in the bottle that actually go faster
at temperatures below 55 F, or at the very least that there are
reactions that proceed as fast at 10 C as at 13 C.

Mark Lipton

Mark, great article. What % of humidity is ideal?

I am checking my cellar now. Please advise.

dick


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
news:%tj7f.273667$084.44527@attbi_s22...
> DaleW wrote:
>> Just saw the page I was referring to cited on another forum:
>>
>> http://www.wineperspective.com/STORA...0&%20AGING.htm
>>
>
> Dale,
> I read through his article and -- since he is a chemist -- feel
> compelled to comment on some points. His basic thesis, that reactions
> go faster at higher temperature, is true in most (but not all) cases.
> However, his statement that some reactions which do not proceed at all
> at lower temperature will occur at higher temperature displays a basic
> misunderstanding of chemical kinetics: even at the lower temperature
> they occur, just at very slow rates (rates which may be meaningful over
> the long duration of wine aging). More imporantly, though, he considers
> only one aspect of how temperature and temperature variation can affect
> the aging of wine. As Ian has pointed out here, temperature
> fluctuations lead to pressure changes inside the bottle that lead to the
> influx of oxygen. There are also processes, like the deposition of
> sediment, that are promoted by lowering the temperature and which may
> affect other chemical processes associated with aging. Conversely, at
> higher temperature the increased loss of alcohol by evaporation might
> retard some reactions, although I doubt that this could be very
> significant.
> In summary, he presents a very simplistic view of how changes in
> temperature can affect the aging of wine. I can easily believe that
> there may be some things going on in the bottle that actually go faster
> at temperatures below 55 F, or at the very least that there are
> reactions that proceed as fast at 10 C as at 13 C.
>
> Mark Lipton