We're going to a local French restaurant for dinner this weekend, and they
feature a small number of reasonably priced French wines by the carafe. I'm
not as conversant with French wine as I'd like, so I'm hoping for some help
in sorting through this list for anything better than the rest.

2000 Ch. De Coulaine Organic, Chinon
2000 Michel Picard, Bourgogne Pinot Noir
2000 M. Chapoutier, Belleruche, Syrah
1999 Ch. Coutet, St. Emillion Grand Cru

And two more by the bottle:
2000 Ch. Godard * Bellevue, Cotes de Francs
2000 Dom. du Pere Pape, Chateauneuf du Pape

Thanks for any help.

In message >
Midlife > wrote:

> We're going to a local French restaurant for dinner this weekend, and they
> feature a small number of reasonably priced French wines by the carafe. I'm
> not as conversant with French wine as I'd like, so I'm hoping for some help
> in sorting through this list for anything better than the rest.
>
> 2000 Ch. De Coulaine Organic, Chinon
> 2000 Michel Picard, Bourgogne Pinot Noir
> 2000 M. Chapoutier, Belleruche, Syrah
> 1999 Ch. Coutet, St. Emillion Grand Cru
>
> And two more by the bottle:
> 2000 Ch. Godard * Bellevue, Cotes de Francs
> 2000 Dom. du Pere Pape, Chateauneuf du Pape
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
It would help enormously if you can give us some idea what you are
likely to be eating.


Timothy Hartley

Hmmm, is this my least favorite place in CA, French 75? That's the only
place I've ever seen a St-Emilion Coutet (as opposed to the sweet
Barsac).

2000 Ch. De Coulaine Organic, Chinon
So-so vintage for red Loire, as I recall. Some are green.

2000 Michel Picard, Bourgogne Pinot Noir
Lighter vintage, and lighter styled producer from my one experience
(the '96). Maybe ok if you aren't ordering red meat.

2000 M. Chapoutier, Belleruche, Syrah
The Belleruche CdR is usually a pretty dependable $10 Rhone (doubt it's
all Syrah,btw),

1999 Ch. Coutet, St. Emillion Grand Cru . My note from French 75:The
1999 Ch. Coutet (St. Émilion) was a simple Bordeaux, clearly a lot of
Merlot in the mix. Sweet red plum and strawberry fruit, light to
medium-bodied, a bit lacking in acidity. B-

2000 Ch. Godard * Bellevue, Cotes de Francs - good vintage
obviously, but don't know producer. Generally one of least impressive
satellite appelations, though Marsau can be ok.

2000 Dom. du Pere Pape, Chateauneuf du Pape
Generally a very light CdP, though I haven't had 2000. But this or the
CdR are the safest choices, depending on what you order. But I'd
probably go for the CdR, which is $10 retail vs. $20 for the CdP.

Please let us know!

Dale
PS If it is French 75, see if they still list Beaucastel CdP by the
glass at a good price. If so, I'd love if you'd ask t see bottle and
report!

in article , DaleW at
wrote on 10/28/05 6:42 AM:

> Hmmm, is this my least favorite place in CA, French 75? That's the only
> place I've ever seen a St-Emilion Coutet (as opposed to the sweet
> Barsac).


No Dale, but very, very close. It's Mirabeau, about five miles South, and
possibly highly influenced by French 75 (which, incidentally, gets very
mixed reviews around here - always seems to be a love it or hate it kindof
thing). There could be a connection via past associations of some kind.
Thanks so much for the comments on the wine.

As to menu (for the other poster), there will be four of us, but all prefer
reds, so I tried to focus only there. Most likely entrees would be beef or
duck I'd think.

Please do me a favor and report back about restaurant. We'll be in
Laguna Beach over Christmas, and will be looking for a place for at
least one night (we mostly eat with Betsy's grandmother). I found
Mirabeau in Dana Point on web, looks like it might be a possibilty
(depending what we do about a car).

On that list, I'd probably go for the Joguet Chinon (by bottle). Joguet
went through a rough patch in 90s, but the one 2000 I had was nice
(different bottling). Likely to be on lighter side, though. If others
favor bigger New World reds not a good choice. The Saintsbury Carneros
PN is usually dependable, too.

Personally, if the duck you referred to is the one in orange sauce,
that's a tough match. The Chinon is probably better than the Burg for
that particular sauce, but even with rouge-centrics I'd probably get a
1/3 carafe of one of the Alsace PBs to try as an experiment- light for
the duck, but better for the sauce.

In article . com>,
DaleW > wrote:
>
>Please do me a favor and report back about restaurant. We'll be in
>Laguna Beach over Christmas, and will be looking for a place for at
>least one night (we mostly eat with Betsy's grandmother). I found
>Mirabeau in Dana Point on web, looks like it might be a possibilty
>(depending what we do about a car).


Your best plan is probably to go to San Diego area. However, I read
interesting things about The Vine in San Clemente. Gayot rates it
14/20, which is pretty good for that neck of the woods. Why such
a wealthy area has such poor restaurants is beyond me.


Dimitri

Hmm, 70 miles to San Diego? Too much driving for me while on a short
vacation.

Overall I agree it's surprising there's not more great places in OC,
but its not enough of a wasteland to make me want to drive an hour+
(and if I did, it would probably be north to LA).

I actually liked 5 Feet a few years ago, although I've heard it has
suffered as guy expanded (and is no longer regularly in kitchen).

Not a romantic place by a longshot, but had good seafood at a huge
place (Gulfstream) in Newport couple years ago (and they waived corkage
on 2 bottles after we bought a bottle).

If we're in doubt, we always go to Westminster for excellent Vietnamese
food

I found 230 Forest in Laguna ok when we met Tom Shudic (TomS here) and
Kriss from WLDG last year. Being able to walk is always a plus, and I
think they charged us corkage for 2 bottles (and we opened 5-6).

Midlife > wrote in :



>
> As to menu (for the other poster), there will be four of us, but all
> prefer reds, so I tried to focus only there. Most likely entrees
> would be beef or duck I'd think.

If the duck has orange sauce ask if they can leave it off or do a cherry or
raspberry sauce then go with the Chinon


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Where is Mirabeau in Dana Point? I go there every 6 months and have
found few good places other than Olemendras for Mexican. Tried Aqua in
the Ritz-Carlton very expensive and just sos-so. I'm always looking for
places. Have never found anything good other than Thai in San Clemente
either.


In article . com>,
"DaleW" > wrote:

> Please do me a favor and report back about restaurant. We'll be in
> Laguna Beach over Christmas, and will be looking for a place for at
> least one night (we mostly eat with Betsy's grandmother). I found
> Mirabeau in Dana Point on web, looks like it might be a possibilty
> (depending what we do about a car).
>
> On that list, I'd probably go for the Joguet Chinon (by bottle). Joguet
> went through a rough patch in 90s, but the one 2000 I had was nice
> (different bottling). Likely to be on lighter side, though. If others
> favor bigger New World reds not a good choice. The Saintsbury Carneros
> PN is usually dependable, too.
>
> Personally, if the duck you referred to is the one in orange sauce,
> that's a tough match. The Chinon is probably better than the Burg for
> that particular sauce, but even with rouge-centrics I'd probably get a
> 1/3 carafe of one of the Alsace PBs to try as an experiment- light for
> the duck, but better for the sauce.
>

In that traffic San Diego can take 2-3 hours. Where is 230 Forest in
LAguna? Is it far from Dana Point? PCH has also become more crowded over
time so getting to the other side of Laguna Beach can also be a stretch
if the weather is nice.

In article .com>,
"DaleW" > wrote:

> Hmm, 70 miles to San Diego? Too much driving for me while on a short
> vacation.
>
> Overall I agree it's surprising there's not more great places in OC,
> but its not enough of a wasteland to make me want to drive an hour+
> (and if I did, it would probably be north to LA).
>
> I actually liked 5 Feet a few years ago, although I've heard it has
> suffered as guy expanded (and is no longer regularly in kitchen).
>
> Not a romantic place by a longshot, but had good seafood at a huge
> place (Gulfstream) in Newport couple years ago (and they waived corkage
> on 2 bottles after we bought a bottle).
>
> If we're in doubt, we always go to Westminster for excellent Vietnamese
> food
>
> I found 230 Forest in Laguna ok when we met Tom Shudic (TomS here) and
> Kriss from WLDG last year. Being able to walk is always a plus, and I
> think they charged us corkage for 2 bottles (and we opened 5-6).
>

in article , DaleW at
wrote on 10/28/05 11:51 AM:

> Please do me a favor and report back about restaurant. We'll be in
> Laguna Beach over Christmas, and will be looking for a place for at
> least one night (we mostly eat with Betsy's grandmother). I found
> Mirabeau in Dana Point on web, looks like it might be a possibilty
> (depending what we do about a car).

My newsreader doesn't thread posts in a way that I can tell which respond
directly to which, so I'll try to cover a few things in this one reply.

With apologies to those to whom none of this means anything in the
slightest:

Mirabeau is at the corner of PCH and Crown Valley Parkway, in the Monarch
Beach section of Dana Point. That center is also the home of Salt Creek
Grille, if that helps. I'd be happy to report back on it, but the wife just
has opted out in favor of a San Clemente venue called Iva Lee's instead.
We'll get back to Mirabeau at some future date.

"Vine" (often called "The Vine", but there's no "The" in it) is our favorite
in the area. It could, however, be problematic for Dale as the owner used to
be chef at French 75. Not sure when or whether the food was the problem for
Dale, but those are the facts. Vine's wine list is excellent, though small.
It's mostly West Coast USA small-production gems.

Mongkut Thai (on Del Mar, in San Clemente) is extremely good. I'd bet that's
the Thai being referred to.

230 Forest is, not coincidentally, at 230 Forest. Forest is the main
shopping side street (off PCH) just South of Main Beach in Laguna.

The owner of Mirabeau told me her two favorite restaurants in the area are
Vine and Iva Lee's, so it should be a good dinner any way we do it.

Midlife wrote:
> We're going to a local French restaurant for dinner this weekend, and they
> feature a small number of reasonably priced French wines by the carafe. I'm
> not as conversant with French wine as I'd like, so I'm hoping for some help
> in sorting through this list for anything better than the rest.
>
> 2000 Ch. De Coulaine Organic, Chinon
> 2000 Michel Picard, Bourgogne Pinot Noir

Neither of those is likely to be memorable, and both might taste thin if
your palate is calibrated to CA.

> 2000 M. Chapoutier, Belleruche, Syrah

As Dale said, a very decent $10-12 CdR. If you think Zin with a few
meaty elements tossed in, you get the general idea.

> 2000 Dom. du Pere Pape, Chateauneuf du Pape

A lackluster producer in a good year. Likely to be simple, fruity and
soft (for the appellation) and medium bodied. Again, think lighter
bodied Zin (Nalle?) with possibly notes of game and herbs and you won't
be too far off.

Given your menu options, I might try the Belleruche, but that's just me.

Mark Lipton

Midlife wrote:
> "Vine" (often called "The Vine", but there's no "The" in it) is our favorite
> in the area. It could, however, be problematic for Dale as the owner usedto
> be chef at French 75. Not sure when or whether the food was the problem for
> Dale, but those are the facts. Vine's wine list is excellent, though small.
> It's mostly West Coast USA small-production gems.
>

Midlife, my problem with French 75 had more to do with managerial
issues than food (food wasn't stellar, but wasn't anything I'd slam a
restaurant for). Issues were reservation issues, some winelist
inaccuracies, service issues, and most especially the surprise of a $65
special (a small lobstertail and a 4-5 oz filet) at a place where the
menu main courses topped out at $36. I put story below. BTW at your
suggestion at the time I emailed the initial complaint (and links to
eGullet and WLDG discussions) to the Wilhelm group, and never got a
response.

If you say this is favorite place in area, I'll take under advisement
and give it a shot (it's not owned by Wilhelm, is it?). Or we might
splurge and try Studio at Montage, as Betsy has really loved a few
recipes from chef (that one would take a serious look at finances first
I understand!).

Thanks for the info and pointers! Dale

Why Dale doesn't care for French 75:
"Betsy called Fri. for a reservation, left a message asking for 7 PM
Sat. When we got back in that afternoon, there was message saying we
could have 6:30 inside or 7 on patio. She called back, left message
saying 7 on patio was fine. We got another message Sat midday, asking
us to confirm time. She called back, spoke to a live person, confirmed
7. We arrived at 7:04, gave name. Lady at desk asked if we were sure we
had made reservation under that name. Yes, 3 times. Receptionist gives
us a look, but seats us.

They bring winelist, but no menus. Menus appear (quite)a while later.
Waiter
recites specials. I order the shrimp appetizer and short ribs, Betsy
a salad
and a "surf and turf" (my words, not theirs)special. I order a half
of 2001
Lafond Sancerre, and a half of 2000 Ch. Coutet (a St.Émilion, not the
Barsac!).
Nice bread with some kind of truffle mayo.

The wines arrive. Um, that's a 1999 St. Émilion. Well, ok, even if
it's a
lesser (cheaper) vintage, the 1999 might be more ready than most
2000s, right?
I approve opening. First courses arrive, the shrimp aren't the tastiest
I've
had, but at least not overcooked, and in a quite good cognac/roasted
tomato
sauce. Betsy enjoys her salad (which includes nice manchego). I
notice other
tables have nicer Spiegelau/Riedel glasses, but I am not going to
complain- I
understand that they might reserve for people spending a bit more.
As smoking people at next table leave, we're still hoping for a good
night.

Main courses arrive. My braised short ribs are tender, and sauce is
good, though
meat itself is a tad bland (maybe they could have braised it in that
sauce?).
Betsy's small lobster tail is very good. But as she cuts into filet,
she realizes
waiter never asked how she wanted. Medium-well meat. She's unhappy, but
says
since she didn't specify medium-rare she doesn't feel she should send
back.

Waiter brings dessert menu. I'm not a dessert person, Betsy says she
could have
dessert, or we could walk home via beach. I confess to having eyed a
real deal
on wine by the glass menu. 2000 Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Chateau de
Beaucastel for
$15.25. But Beaucastel for $15.25 seems unlikely, as mediocre vintage
of
Silver Oak is on list for $25. I ask waiter, "this is really
Beaucastel, right,
not Coudelet de Beaucastel?" "Yes, Beaucastel." "Really? Seems
inexpensive"
Some hemming and hawing, then "Well, it's Chateau de Beaucastel, not
Beaucastel, it's the second-tier". That makes no sense, but rather than

determine whether it's Coudelet, the Perrin negociant CdP,or what, I
just ask
for the check. When it comes, I gulp. The price for Betsy's small filet
and
lobster tail is $65!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, I guess we should have
asked.
But my assumption when waiter recites specials is that they are in the
range of
other main courses (which in this case went from $20 to $36). Now, with
beef
and lobster, I expected it to be a bit more- $40 maybe, and I wouldn't
have
been totally shocked at $48. But $65 for overcooked meat and a lobster
tail?
This is a "bistro" on Coast Highway- for the special and her $10 salad
Betsy
could order a tasting menu at some top NYC places! I started to ask for

manager, but again, I hadn't asked price. We decided to try to salvage
our
night by walking on the beach. I tipped 15% of the pre-tax (inflated)
total,
instead of my usual 20+. I did circle the $65 and leave a note how
ridiculous
this was. Ended the night with a nice walk rather than a confrontation
with
manager. "

"DaleW" > wrote in
oups.com:



>
> manager, but again, I hadn't asked price. We decided to try to salvage
> our
> night by walking on the beach. I tipped 15% of the pre-tax (inflated)
> total,
> instead of my usual 20+. I did circle the $65 and leave a note how
> ridiculous
> this was. Ended the night with a nice walk rather than a confrontation
> with
> manager. "
>
>

Unfortunately, Dale, unless we confront the demons they never learn. I make
a point of this with my cruise clients. No matter how good the place is, if
they screw up a complaint must be made or no one will benefit from your
pain. Sometimes they will come back and then I write the angry letter, but
it only goes to some shore side guy and the correction in the restaurant
may or may not be made.

I would have done the same with the wines, but would have pointedly noted
to the waiter that the wine list was wrong.


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

in article , DaleW at
wrote on 10/29/05 6:51 AM:

> Midlife wrote:
>> "Vine" (often called "The Vine", but there's no "The" in it) is our favorite
>> in the area. It could, however, be problematic for Dale as the owner used to
>> be chef at French 75. Not sure when or whether the food was the problem for
>> Dale, but those are the facts. Vine's wine list is excellent, though small.
>> It's mostly West Coast USA small-production gems.
>>
>
> Midlife, my problem with French 75 had more to do with managerial
> issues than food (food wasn't stellar, but wasn't anything I'd slam a
> restaurant for). Issues were reservation issues, some winelist
> inaccuracies, service issues, and most especially the surprise of a $65
> special (a small lobstertail and a 4-5 oz filet) at a place where the
> menu main courses topped out at $36. I put story below. BTW at your
> suggestion at the time I emailed the initial complaint (and links to
> eGullet and WLDG discussions) to the Wilhelm group, and never got a
> response.
>
> If you say this is favorite place in area, I'll take under advisement
> and give it a shot (it's not owned by Wilhelm, is it?). Or we might
> splurge and try Studio at Montage, as Betsy has really loved a few
> recipes from chef (that one would take a serious look at finances first
> I understand!).
>
> Thanks for the info and pointers! Dale


I do remember your story now. As I think I may have said at the time, French
75 does seem to be a hit or miss proposition for a disappointingly large
number of people. My son's girlfriend's family has loved it for years, yet
I see posts similar to yours, on the regional board of Chowhound a lot.
Wilhelm is quite successful, but that's not always a guarantee. We've never
been disappointed at French 75, Savannah Chop House, or Chimayo, and Chat
Noir tends to get only raves. He's got three new ones on the books too. I am
surprised, though, that a thoughtful, constructive letter got no response.
Very bad management practice to not at least acknowledge it. My knowledge of
the company, overall, would tend to think it was not intentional,
but????????

Studio is supposed to be excellent. It's also much more accessible for you,
since Vine is another 10-15 miles South. Studio also has a dramatic ocean
view that Vine doesn't have, but you pay at least a 30% premium for that.

I have come to conclude that restaurants are very much like wine in that,
especially at the upper end, quality differences become much more subtle and
reflect the palate and experience of the diner/drinker moreso than at the
lower end. If I were to use The French Laundry as a benchmark, I'm sure my
response would be very different to any of these places. It really does
hinge on what you're used to in quality...... and value too. I've always
felt that Orange County is missing a huge mid-range tier of great eateries
that exist in places like New York and San Francisco. Maybe in a hundred
years or so? OC was mostly orange groves just 25 years ago, and it's
multi-cultural growth has only just begun in many locales. I really feel
that's a big factor in what allows for great, authentic food value.

Midlife,
Depending on what car access is like (Betsy's grandmother doesn't drive
any more, so we might rent a car, or we might use her parent's car if
they visit at same time, but otherwise we just walk around Laguna), I
think Vine sounds worth the drive. I love good views, but am more
food-focused for getting my money's worth (we'll have a drink at Las
Brisas for view, or just walk around Montage!).

I think Orange County has some similarities to Westchester. There are 1
or 2 really good top end places here, a few mid-tier. But lots of
eateries seem to succumb to the thought "well, we can't REALLY compete
with city places, so why try."

I've noted all of your suggestions, thanks!

Vine is in which city?

In article .com>,
"DaleW" > wrote:

> Midlife,
> Depending on what car access is like (Betsy's grandmother doesn't drive
> any more, so we might rent a car, or we might use her parent's car if
> they visit at same time, but otherwise we just walk around Laguna), I
> think Vine sounds worth the drive. I love good views, but am more
> food-focused for getting my money's worth (we'll have a drink at Las
> Brisas for view, or just walk around Montage!).
>
> I think Orange County has some similarities to Westchester. There are 1
> or 2 really good top end places here, a few mid-tier. But lots of
> eateries seem to succumb to the thought "well, we can't REALLY compete
> with city places, so why try."
>
> I've noted all of your suggestions, thanks!
>

San Clemente.

I found it on web, looks like nice menu and wine list (or reasonable
corkage).

http://www.vinesanclemente.com/

In article .com>,
"DaleW" > wrote:

> www.vinesanclemente.com

Does look quite good. I will have to give it a try in February.